Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Attribute maxiums and cyberware/bioware
Posted by: Lord Ben Feb 8 2008, 07:10 PM
Can you have 4 agility and then muscle toner 4 and suprathyroid gland for another +5 to max out at 9? Or do you have to have 6 natural and then 3 from enhancements?
Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 07:15 PM
If I remember correctly by the letter of RAW you can only augment up to your current natural *1.5, but I may be misremembering since I've long since houseruled it to mean you can augment whatever the difference between your natural max and aug max is. (Three for humans, ect...)
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 07:21 PM
If former was true, you would need natural reaction of 12 to fully benefit from Move-by-Wire 3. That can't be right.
Posted by: Ravor Feb 8 2008, 07:25 PM
Move-by-Wire is so over the top I don't see a problem with that. 
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 07:26 PM
I thought that for a long time, but I believe that applies to skills, but not to attributes. If you have a skill of 4, you can only boost it up to a 6, but an attribute of 1 can be boosted all the way up to 9.
edit: SR4 pg 109 is where it talks about the limit for skills, and also demonstrates that we are to round down when calculating base*1.5
edit2: pg 62 is the corresponding section for Attributes where it talks about modified limit being racial max * 1.5, not natural value * 1.5
Posted by: Bira Feb 8 2008, 07:28 PM
Your "augmented maximum" is a hard cap, but I don't think it matters how you get there. Both 6(natural)+3 (implants) and 2+7 are equally valid.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 8 2008, 07:35 PM
Is this the way it works? I've always looked at it as If you maximum your maximum augmented is 9. Wherther you do that as 6 natural and 3 augments, or 1 natural and 8 augments, either way it only goes up to 9. Even reading I can see how it could be interpreted either way.
For this I only see a limit on the maximum augmented, not on how much augmentation you can put on an attribute.
Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 8 2008, 07:40 PM
Move-By-Wire, I think only gives a +2 Reaction regardless of rating. At least I never read that as a per rating, the only thing that varied per rating as I saw was the IP's and of course Skill Wires rating. I read that entry many times thinking that it was not as good for reaction at rating 3, but better for reaction at rating 1, then the other IP enhancers.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 07:42 PM
Are you sure? I'm having a hard time swallowing that. Anybody got their copy of Augmentation handy, can we get a quote?
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 07:43 PM
As I read it, MbW gives you reaction, dodge and IP per rating. I find it hard, but possible to read it otherwise.
Also, this mofo can still be combined with reaction enhancers. Reaction 1[9] ftw.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 07:59 PM
Hmmm, +6 from the MBW, +3 from the reaction enhancers, +1 from suprathyroid gland. Assuming exceptional attribute positive quality and that geneware that raises your racial max, I can get a reaction of 2(12), is there anywhere I can scare up an extra point of reaction boost to get a 1(12) reaction?
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 08:05 PM
You are Evil. 
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 08:10 PM
Thanks. Isn't there a geneware treatment or a nanite that gives a reaction bonus? There must be one somewhere so I can get 1(12).
Posted by: Dashifen Feb 8 2008, 08:22 PM
I can't think of any. Most of the genetech and nanoware adds a dice pool modification, not an attribute one. There are some (like the transgenic Reakt treatment) that increase Reaction based dice pools, but that won't get you to 1(12).
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 08:25 PM
Unfortunatly, Nano and Genestuff modify specific tests and don't increase attributes. At least, I can't find any that do.
Posted by: ElFenrir Feb 8 2008, 09:42 PM
The Geneware...now, that was the thing that was compatible with Exceptional Attribute, correct?
So, a Human with Exceptional Attribute: Reaction, and Geneware: Reaction, has an 8 regular limit, and a 12 hard cap, is that correct?
In addition, if they were to get both at chargen, they could essentially soft-max their Reaction...at 7, for 60 BPs. Whoa. (Well, ok, that's a big cost...20 for the Quality, and however much the Genetech is in BP. It sounds like essentialy almost 1/4 of their starting 400 BP to supercharge one attribute.)
Not having Augmentation handy, is this Genetech expensive, and can you only get it once at all, or once per attribute?
Sounds pretty cool, actually. I have a feeling it ain't cheap, though.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 8 2008, 09:45 PM
So, a Human with Exceptional Attribute: Reaction, and Geneware: Reaction, has an 8 regular limit, and a 12 hard cap, is that correct?
In addition, if they were to get both at chargen, they could essentially soft-max their Reaction...at 7, for 60 BPs. Whoa. (Well, ok, that's a big cost...20 for the Quality, and however much the Genetech is in BP. It sounds like essentialy almost 1/4 of their starting 400 BP to supercharge one attribute.)
Not having Augmentation handy, is this Genetech expensive, and can you only get it once at all, or once per attribute?
Sounds pretty cool, actually. I have a feeling it ain't cheap, though.
Correct.
Correct.
Correct.
Once per attribute.
I don't have the costs handy either, but as I recall it ain't cheap, but it's not completely prohibitive either. I want to say 30,000
, but that's purely from memory, and is probably wrong.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 09:58 PM
whoops, wrong thread. Sorry.
and to add something constructive:
it's genetic optimization, 45,000 nuyen, .2 essence, and 2 months of downtime
Posted by: jago668 Feb 8 2008, 10:44 PM
Don't forget there is also the genetech to give you the abilities of other metas. So evidently for enough nuyen, essence, and downtime you could evidently have a human with a trolls body, elfs agility, trolls strength, elfs charisma, and a dwarfs willpower. Then genetic optimization your entire attribute set, and take the lucky quality.
If the cops ever caught you they could fairly easily pin you to any crime you left genetic evidence behind at though. I doubt there would be anyone walking around with anywhere close to the same genetic blue print.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 10:51 PM
whoa, whoa, whoa...no there isn't.
There's genetech that'll make you look like and DNA test as another metatype, but you explicity do not get the bonuses of that metatype.
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 10:52 PM
Genetech can change your looks, not your attributes. If I'm not gravely mistaken right now. Which I am not, of course. 
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 8 2008, 10:58 PM
Though, admittedly, it doesn't say it removes the bonuses you already got.
So an elf with body 9, strength 9 unaugmented may be possible...in some games anyway.
Posted by: jago668 Feb 8 2008, 11:01 PM
Augmentation - page 89 - Ethnicity Alteration
I was reading because it said it gave both genetic and physical ethnic characteristics. There is a Metaposeur that isn't in the chart but listed in the text that specifically states it only give the physical appearance not any of the actual benefits. So I read it as two different things. One you take to say get low light vision like an orc or elf, and the other to stop looking like an orc and look like a HUGE elf instead, but still have the orc stats.
Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 11:09 PM
Ethnic is black/red/yellow. Not human/elf/trog.
Meaning, a white rapper can indeed become a gangster and an aboriginee could become japanese. Kind of.
Posted by: jago668 Feb 8 2008, 11:17 PM
Ah, I was thinking wrong then. I will admit it seemed a bit overpowered, but I am not one to complain about awesome cheeze.
Posted by: clangedinn Feb 9 2008, 12:10 AM
Not on the topic of geneware but back on the augmented max. From everything that i ahve read and the page that has the lovly chart with the meta mins/max stats there is also a stat for each attrribute in parenthases. I thought this stat was the max augmented as in a human having a max of 9 in any stat no matter how chromed or altered they are? an example would be a human buying his body up to 6 during chargen with BP and then buying dermal plating rating 3 to take his body to 9 but no matter what else he places in himself via cyber, bioware, or magic he can not take that ability statistic past 9. Is this correct or did i ahve my whole damn group build thier characters incorrectly?
Posted by: Jackstand Feb 9 2008, 12:13 AM
That's the way that it works, except that dermal plating gives you armor, not body.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 9 2008, 12:16 AM
not to be confused with "effective" body from things like bone lacing which give you extra damage soak dice along with the armor, but don't actually raise the attribute
Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 12:18 AM
Ah, that makes me think of something I was looking at earlier. The adept power Improved Reflexes says +1 Reaction Die and +1 Initiative Pass. Is that just adding in when you roll reaction or is it actually upping reaction?
Posted by: clangedinn Feb 9 2008, 12:19 AM
Ok sorry wrong choice of upgrade for the explination but i am happy to know that i did not have them build thier characters incorrectly. whew *whips sweat off brow*
Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 12:43 AM
It's upping Reaction.
Posted by: Fortune Feb 9 2008, 12:54 AM
That's a flat +1 per level to Reaction, which does count against the Augmented Maximum, plus 1 Initiative Pass. Though the IP really only counts during Initiative, the additional Reaction is applicable every single time Reaction comes into play.
Posted by: jago668 Feb 9 2008, 01:27 AM
That is what I was figuring since that is the way the other stuff works. Just figured I would ask, I like to confirm my thoughts on stuff when I can. Since I do have moments of trying to break the game (like me reading that genetech thing wrong.)
Posted by: Fortune Feb 9 2008, 01:45 AM
It's always best to ask. Very few people here mind answering questions ... even if they might have been asked a time or two before. 
Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 01:49 AM
Of course, it's not uncommon to ask a question to three Dumpshockers and get ten different and counterdicting answers.
Posted by: Rasumichin Feb 9 2008, 02:07 AM
There's also geneware that imediately renders all genetic evidence you leave behind worthless for identification purposes.
Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 9 2008, 02:14 AM
two, actually - one that makes technological DNA matching impossible, and one that rapidly degrades any shedded DNA
Posted by: Abbandon Feb 9 2008, 12:29 PM
Ok it is kind of being talked about here. A human has Reaction 4, Intuition 4, Dodge 4, wired reflexes 2, and reaction enhancers 2.
His initiative would be 4(6, +2 for wires) + 4 = 10 dice because Wires cant be mixed with reaction enhancers for initiative right???
Now he is being shot at and decides to go on full defense (dodge) so he would get:
Reaction 4(6, +2 for wires) + dodge 4 = 10 dice
or??
Reaction 4(8, +2 for wires, +2 for reaction enhancers) + dodge 4 = 12 dice ??, and if he had reaction 6 his wires and reaction enhancers could boost him to 10 which is 1 above his racial max??
Posted by: Fortune Feb 9 2008, 12:39 PM
I, like most people that I have played with, just ignore the stupid FAQ ruling, and then everything is cake.
Posted by: Stahlseele Feb 9 2008, 12:44 PM
so everything is a lie then ? O.o sorry, i could not resist x.x . .
Posted by: Ryu Feb 9 2008, 12:54 PM
There are two answers:
1) You accept the FAQ, and Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers don´t ever add up. You can install both.
2) You ignore the FAQ, note the difference between Reaction and Initiative, and use a DP of 12 dice in both cases. This would be the state of affairs since SR2. Only that they made the combo with MBW work by now.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)