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Posted by: cryptoknight Feb 8 2008, 11:10 PM

for SR4. I find many times I wish I had more grunts in the book... and especially when I suddenly need them immediately and didn't think to make one up. Has anybody made a Grunt compendium?

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 11:13 PM

I use the grunts in the book and adjust on the fly. Basicly, every powerlevel of opposition is already present. Throw in some details, increase a pool by 1 or 2 and voila, more mooks.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Feb 8 2008, 11:35 PM

I'm currently trying to transfer all my grunts onto notecards so I can create my "Wheelbook of Death"

Right now I have about 15 archetypical grunts from gangers with clubs to just below elite special forces. I vary their attributes based on the resources they have availible and occasionally boost or lower them for shear randomness.

I want to get that number closer to 30 and add in generic on the fly NPC's too.

Posted by: GoldenAri Feb 8 2008, 11:48 PM

I've never liked how weak the grunts in the BBB are. The top level special forces are approximately (and I stress the approximately) on par with beginning runners. I tend to adjust things up a bit. That being said a book full of grunts in different configurations (say some who've been possessed by spirits, or are optimized for one attribute or another) with damage tracks for groups, is a great idea

If nobody has one, I guess I'll just make my own.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 8 2008, 11:55 PM

How badass grunts are depends on tactics, not stats. I kick my players asses using Halloweeners.

Posted by: Fix-it Feb 9 2008, 12:03 AM

This. If your players think the grunts are too easy. try using tactics and enviroment against them.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Feb 9 2008, 12:09 AM

Tactices and little things like "Homeground" which gives them quiet a little dice pool boost. Lower level grunts better be in their element are they're going to get hosed. That's why grunts should be bursting out of hidey holes and exploiting players typical ignorance of exactly where they are.

Posted by: toturi Feb 9 2008, 12:19 AM

RAW:

Professional Rating 0 Grunts do not act with a plan.

Professional Rating 1 and 2 have a plan and act deliberately.

Professional Rating 3 and 4 know what they are doing(presumably with a plan), are not stupid and do not take foolish chances.

Professional Rating 5 and 6 are professionals.

So while Semi-trained guys have a plan, they might not be able to react well to changes. Real tactics only surface at Trained. Presumably Elite grunts also make use of more advance tactics.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 12:32 AM

I don't use military grade tactics with Halloweeners, but they ain't cannonfodder either. And if you really think Red Samurai are to weak compared to startig runners... with them you can pull off shit, the players will have nightmares for weeks. Hack them, use sprits, cover, suppressive fire, grenades, infamous stick-and-shot. You name it.

You should upgrade their armor if you have arsenal though. The new one is really nice and shiney.

Posted by: toturi Feb 9 2008, 01:48 AM

The canon Red Sams are not weak but their basic loadout do not include a magician, grenades or stick and shock(although a case may be made that they could customise their own ammo/equipment loadouts, then again given the conformity and uniformity of the Red Sams maybe not).

Posted by: Ravor Feb 9 2008, 01:55 AM

Personally I wished that they didn't include any "Grunts" in Fourth Edition, but instead just provide a few basic guidelines on building NPCs.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 02:20 AM

They don't custimze, they get equipment assigned according to their mission. Sometimes they need to capture someone alive. Sometimes it's all-out-war they need to conduct. And they do have mages and hackers and whatnot. Well, at least they had those in SR3. They can have anything they need. That's the beauty of adjusting grunts on the fly. If it makes sense in any way, they can have it.

Posted by: toturi Feb 9 2008, 02:33 AM

In SR3, Red Sams are Superhuman and Professional, meaning that they should always walk all over the runners without breaking a sweat, no matter how experienced the runners are.

In SR4, compared with earlier editions, they are much easier to handle.

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 02:44 AM

I disagree. They weren't impressive statwise in SR3 either. The modified Deus Samurai were fun, granted, but that's another story.

Posted by: Fortune Feb 9 2008, 02:45 AM

Ug!

Posted by: Lord Ben Feb 9 2008, 02:52 AM

We had a terrible DM once that would put us against powerful force 12 spirits, etc. He was terrible. Anyhow, he'd always complain because his NPC's died super fast.

But his tactics were always to stand in the middle of the room and try to suck damage instead of any sort of strategy...

SR is a game where strategies in how you conduct the battle matter FAR more than individual stats. A couple gangers with uzi's shooting wide burst fire can wound PC's easily enough.

Posted by: toturi Feb 9 2008, 03:16 AM

Not impressive? According to the SR3 rules, each and every single one of them fought till they died and had Skill and Attribute Ratings 3 or more than the average Skill and Attributes of the PCs and 3 to 4 dice more than the average of the PCs' Karma Pools. 1 Superhuman NPC is supposed to be a match for an entire team of PCs, now you have a whole team of Superhuman NPCs.

Posted by: Cain Feb 9 2008, 05:42 AM

I'd say that based on the characters posted here, the top level special forces teams are almost a match for one moderately-optimized starting combat character.


That leads to every grunt using military tactics. That's about as unreasonable as giving gangers milspec weaponry.


Even Prime Runners are a joke. Someone else proved that it's not about BP totals, it's about dice pool sizes. The SR4 high-end grunts don't have the dice pools to compete with well-designed PC's; and thanks to the dice caps, neither do Prime Runner characters. The only way to challenge the PC's, assuming that they're using smart tactics as well, is to out-think them in character builds... which, thanks to the limits, isn't really possible to do.

Posted by: knasser Feb 9 2008, 08:53 AM

I have various grunts statted out, but not as many as I'd like. I came up with an idea for a grunt making program so that you could rapidly pump out minor variations and I put together the basic stats (base different races, mod-packs for Physical, Very Physical, Cyber packages, etc.). But it was too much work for me at the moment. When I can get my computer programmer housemate to help me out with it, I'll get it done and posted.

As regards the Red Samurai, I had a squad of them statted out in my second props roster, mainly so I could give them more appropriate equipment from Arsenal. I agree that tactics and resources are what normally make a difference with grunts more than anything else.

-K.

Posted by: ElFenrir Feb 9 2008, 09:41 AM

I considered for a long time, even though it would take some time to do so, making a small binder/notebook full of mooks; from 300 BP gangers with coke and a 2x4 with a nail, to an elite of the elite Tir warrior-king or whatever. It would be great; since we play with houserules that make it a little easier at chargen(the no availability, 20 points rather than to max an attribute, re-configured old SR3 edges and flaws and Chax2 contact points), characters in our games are a little better(even at 400 BP, which we stick with), than the average out of the gate runner. It would be nice to have a book with opposition set right for the power level; and also, some lower-level mooks for if we decide to play a lower key game(or simply if we need them; even a 500 BP character is going to have a hard time with 5 gangers with knives and chains.).

And i agree with the mook power level in the book; it IS a little low. I mean, maybe they assume everyone will play low-key gangers or something, but even the Sample Characters could have their way with them.

All of THAT being said, of course, there SHOULD be some redshirts out there. Not every single person(in my opinion, anyway), needs to pose a skin of their teeth threat; we like to make the PCs feel special sometimes, and PCs are not your average person, anyway. 'Redshirts' are actually good for something else; tossing them out and getting the PCs to slip up and feel comfy before the real opposition hits them makes people sweat at the table. They shouldn't be abused by wave after wave of Tir Ghosts but they should be at least worried that something bigger might go down after their fifth mook with a light pistol.

Posted by: Blade Feb 9 2008, 12:38 PM

I just create the dice pools on the spot, using the skill/attribute rating table as a guideline and then adding in cyberware/magic/gear modifiers. It works fine. Most of the time I also like to give the NPC a little personality so that everyone won't always act the same way.
And in the end, except for over-the-top characters, tactics are really far more important than dice pools (even if a high dice pool helps )

Posted by: Malicant Feb 9 2008, 01:39 PM

What edition are you talkign about? In the SR3 I own, Red Sams aren't Superhuman. They are impressive, but 1-on-1 they get easily pawned. Have I missed some book where they got upgraded?