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Posted by: Prime Mover Feb 11 2008, 04:58 PM

This is probably covered somewhere but not finding it with search. Do these lamps just illuminate dual natured or does it allow mundanes to see into astral???

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 05:29 PM

In the physical world, it allows characters with low-light vision to see in areas otherwise too dark and a +2 Perception test modifier to notice magic. In the astral plane it gives a +2 Astral visibility modifier. It does not give a mundane character astral perception.

Posted by: Prime Mover Feb 11 2008, 05:31 PM

That was my take, just making sure.

Posted by: GoldenAri Feb 11 2008, 06:09 PM

The way I read the description astral forms would also cast faint physical shadows in the light of a lucifer lamp.

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 11 2008, 06:13 PM

I think GoldenAri is right:

In other words, a spirit may not actually be illumniated on the physical plane, but its shadow might appear on the wall. Targetting the thing would still probably be very difficult (especially since it's would still be moving at Astral velocities) but it gives a mundane the potential for "seeing" an astral spirit.

I just wish they had an option for the Eye Lights system!

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 06:52 PM

Reading the entry I'm inclined to agree.

That sentence could be directed more toward justifying the bonus for the +2 perception test to notice magic and I'm not sure how much it could help with spirits mechanically, but it sure sounds like nearby spirits give off "unusual shadows".

Posted by: apollo124 Feb 11 2008, 07:03 PM

I presume this is in "Arsenal". Sounds cool, but wouldn't that creep the hell out of you? You shine a light and nothing casts a shadow on the wall.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Feb 11 2008, 07:08 PM

Relative to going on a bughunt without one...no, not creepy at all - this way you at least have slightly more warning.

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 11 2008, 07:34 PM

They actually still wouldn't be able to target it with anything, since there isn't actually anything physical there to hit. They would, though, be able to, say, find out that there's a watcher, or other astral lurker, lying in wait there, and they need to go a different way.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM

What about an adept (assume no astral perception) with an active weapon focus?

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 11 2008, 07:49 PM

That's a good question, but I think that the adept still has to be astrally active for his weapon focus to work on the spirit. The weapon would have an aura, but not an astral presence.

Posted by: stevebugge Feb 11 2008, 08:01 PM

The high cost of the bulbs means they aren't likely to be used as an always on security feature, that's for sure. At 100 an hour each lamp would cost 876000 per year, Security Mages can probably still be hired for quite a bit less than that. However used in conjunction with things like GloMoss and Leeches this would give a mundane patrol team a away to try to verify a positive hit by a leech, and combined with a quicksilver camera a mundane team might (if they were pretty lucky) come away with a snapshot of an astral intruder.

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 11 2008, 08:05 PM

Correct.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 11 2008, 08:14 PM

Actually incorrect. Active foci are dual natured. Weapon foci are "effective against astral foes" whether you are astrally active or not (SR4, p. 192). It's only an Astral Combat test if you are personally astrally projecting (same page).

So yeah, if you are physical and it's astral, you can still use your blades skill to attack the astral target with your dual natured weapon. I suggest throwing reflective chaffe dust into the air so that the shadows of the astral forms are cast in visible 3-dimensional real space.

-Frank

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 08:20 PM

Of course, if the adept in question is targeting a purely astral entity, he'd have to be using Astral Combat anyway. Right? (Astral combat with dual-natured creatures can be confusing) And if he doesn't have astral perception, he probably doesn't have astral combat. But hey, he might, or he might not want to spend the action to use it right now, or else he won't have a complex action to attack anyway. It makes the situation stranger, but not impossible.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 11 2008, 08:22 PM

It probably goes without saying but apply modifier as seen fit, probably only a -4, maybe even -2 with the dust motes. You use astral combat if you don't have a foci or are not in your physical body, and charisma for damage. If you are in your physical body and have a foci, that straight blades skill and strength for damage.

Posted by: GoldenAri Feb 11 2008, 08:25 PM

I'm pretty sure you'd need an active focus to hit the spirit, and that you'd use the appropriate weapon skill. I had thought that astral combat was for fighting when you are on the astral plane. An adept in this scenario is physical and just happens to be attacking something on a different plane.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 11 2008, 08:27 PM

Not really, no. Dual natured attackers can use physical combat attacks against astral targets. That's why a single watcher can't automatically kill every Ghoul, Hellhound, Merrow, Thunderbird, and Barghest on the planet in extreme(ly slow) mortal kombat.

-Frank

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 08:31 PM

From the SR FAQ.

Also.

Am I reading that wrong?

edit: Brevity not intended as confrontational.

Posted by: GoldenAri Feb 11 2008, 08:33 PM

Well, I'll be damned...

Curse you FAQ *shakes fist*

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 08:41 PM

I had exactly this question come up last night and I made the adept pick up astral combat to be able to hit a spirit with his weapon focus (with willpower + astral combat).

It made sense to me that if the adept used his physical body to attack the area on the physical plane that he believed the spirit to be astrally, he would be able to damage it with the dual-natured weapon focus.. but the rules didn't seem to back me up as Moon-Hawk quoted above and I wasn't ready to house rule anything.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 11 2008, 08:43 PM

That FAQ answer is straight wrong. Dual Natured critters don't have an Astral Combat skill. Astral Combat is a no default skill. That ruling is "Hellhounds automaticlaly lose all astral combat and any watcher will eventually peck them to death because there is literally no way for them to even try to defend themselves."

The FAQ occassionally has clunkers in it. That answer is one of them.

-Frank

Posted by: Dashifen Feb 11 2008, 08:46 PM

Erring on the side of the defense of the FAQ writer(s), I don't think they intended to imply that you couldn't use other combat options as a dual-natured fighter, but that if you were using the Astral Combat skill, it's linked to your Willpower regardless of your current plane of existence. That answer does not preclude a dual-natured fighter from not using Astral Combat, however. Regardless, it's one of the FAQ answers that I tend to ignore for the reasons mentioned above.

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 08:46 PM

I have reconsidered this after reading this paragraph Frank pointed to..

Seems like an adept with astral perception and a weapon focus wouldn't need astral combat to hit a spirit after all. Thanks Frank.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 08:58 PM

Damn it! I am sick and f#*%$ing tired of this issue. Okay, fine, so as per SR4 pg 192 weapon foci can be used. That doesn't help the hellhounds or the merrow or any other dual natured critters who aren't using a weapon focus.
SR4 pg 184: Astral Combat

No correction in the errata. Pretty damn unambiguous, watchers pwn paracritters from here to absurdity.

edit: I'm ranting at the game/world, not any of you.

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 09:05 PM

If they are dual-natured, shouldn't their claws/bite/tail be dual-natured too?

I mean what does dual-natured really mean? Their claws are represented on the physical plane and the astral plane. And if such a dual natured claw cuts through a wholly astral entity, it should still wound it as the two astral forms cannot occupy the same astral space at the same time.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 09:11 PM

I agree. And the skill which represents whether or not they can put their dual-natured claw through an astral body is apparently Astral Combat. The quote on pg 192 that seems to contradict that refers specifically to weapon foci and only weapon foci. Dual natured creatures, as far as I can see, follow the general rule for astral combat which clearly and unambiguously states that dual natured creatures attack purely astral entities with Willpower + Astral Combat. Which is stupid, but that's what it is. There needs an errata, either in the skills of every paracritter, or in the rules for astral combat. (I'd prefer the latter)
edit: Or in the Astral Combat skill, to allow for defaulting.

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 11 2008, 09:11 PM

By definition, any attempt to hit an astral target involves Astral Combat Skill.

Posted by: stevebugge Feb 11 2008, 09:21 PM

Following this a bit it sounds like we've got a case of Rules as Written don't quite match up with Rules as Intended (I'm assuming that one or more of the participants had a hand in actual development).

My short Recap. RAW states that any attack against a purely astral Entity requires Astral Combat Skill, RAW aslo states that Merrow, Hellound et.al. do not possess this Skill, ergo they cannot attack purely astral entities.

RAI suggests that dual nature creactures should be able to attack purely astral entities instinctively, which is a disconnect with the RAW.

Sounds like until an official fix is made, either allowing dual natured creatures to engage the purely astral with Physical COmbat Skills or by adding Astral Combat skill to all dual natured creatures this will have to be house ruled to fit your individual game sensibilities.

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 11 2008, 09:25 PM

If you read the sentence before the one that you quoted, it becomes clear that, in its context, that one refers to an astrally perceiving character weilding the weapon focus. This is in opposition to a character who is astrally perceiving and weilding a non-magical 2x4, which would pass harmlessly through an astral form. It doesn't say in that sentence that the focus has to be active, either, by the way.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 11 2008, 09:35 PM

I read it as adepts don't need astral combat if they have a weapon focus. The dual nature of the weapon focus is what allows it to hit astrally not your astral combat" I will myself to hit your soul" ability. You're limited to your physical body still, wheras the astral being is going off of mental stats which will be reflected in its new dodge (unless he was faster on his feet than in his head). Same goes for dual-natured beings they are dual natured, they don't need to will themselves to hit something astrally they can do it since they exist simultaneously in two places.

When projecting you of course would use astral combat, because you no longer have an agility score, so your blades skill is kind of useless now. You "will yourself to hit".

Dual natured could astral combat, if they are some type of spirit devourer, who has a lower physical attack, than astral combat attack. But it would be by no means their only attack.

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 11 2008, 09:39 PM

Oh yeah. My contention was just with him saying that the weapon focus could hit an astral form without the weilder being astrally active. I guess I should have edited off the rest of the quote.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 09:43 PM

@stevebugge: I agree with your summary completely.

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 11 2008, 09:44 PM

Aside from Watchers being able to clear the world, this also goes against written canon.

Recall back in SR3-2-1 where there were bounties on ghouls? Why then was there not a single mage just zooming around in Astral mass extincting all the ghouls that were not majically active with his meatbody buddy following the chaos with a garbage truck or dozen?

Yes sir I agree, RAW is not As Intended. There is a serious disconnect.

Posted by: GoldenAri Feb 11 2008, 09:46 PM

Well, as pretty much everyone is n agreement that RAW is in the wrong here. Which method makes most sense to fix the problem?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 09:48 PM

And, I will add, if there were a single obvious way to fix it there really wouldn't be a problem. We could all look at it, say "Mmm hmmm, that's absurd, they obviously intended X," and move on. The problem is, there are multiple valid ways to fix the problem, and it's not even a complete impossibility that it works they way it's stated, just that the official way has horrible, unavoidable conclusions, and that's exactly the sort of thing that breeds rabid flamewars until we get a 100% official answer. Or at least 99% official. (I'm looking at you, SR4 FAQ) j/k

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 10:09 PM

But....I'd rather just bitch.
Seriously, I'm not sure. I think all dual-natured and astrally perceiving entities should be able to attack with their physical attributes and skills, whether they're using a weapon focus or not.
However I'm still unsure on whether 1) their damage should be physically based (i.e. strength based) or astrally based (i.e. charisma based), and 2) if they should be able to ALSO use Willpower+Astral Combat, if that would benefit them more.
I could make something up, but I'd prefer an official answer and an entry in errata 1.6.

edit: In the meantime, I could be happy with someone chiming in with "I wrote the Astral Combat section, and I intended it to work thusly."

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 10:23 PM

I think my solution is going to be simple. Dual Natured critters can use their natural weapons as a weapon focus for purposes of hitting astral entities (as detailed on 192-193). This doesn't prevent them from using astral combat if they have it, but without it they are not helpless to weak astral beings whom they can already see and must watch as they tear their soul apart.. because it's not like they could easily run and hide.

If they really are "dual natured" they should have survival instincts and methods against both planes. It doesn't make sense that they wouldn't - as natural selection would have ended their existence long long ago (the mage and the ghoul example, above).

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 11 2008, 10:29 PM

Raij: What about astrally perceiving characters?

Posted by: Raij Feb 11 2008, 10:33 PM

Without a weapon focus? I suppose they should still be considered dual natured too and going by my fix above that means they should be able to walk up and punch a spirit in the eye with their bare hand. That brings up a further issue I suppose, guess it's not as easy a fix as I thought.

I imagine some line needs to be drawn between astral perception and dual nature as it relates to natural weapon use in the astral (even though the book says astrally perceiving characters are considered dual natured).

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 11 2008, 10:40 PM

I dont have anybooks before me at the moment, but as I recall (again pre SR4) a perceiving character is dual natured.

He can be struck from astral and still must move his meat body. Hence I would call it the same a dual natured creatures, the perceiver would attack with unarmed combat with his feet/hands and so on doing physical based damage.

Now, if the perceiver was using the mundane 2x4 (from above) then that 2x4 would be useless as a physical attack, but I suppose you could use that Astral combat + willpower test with appropriate charisma damage (iirc) and the 2x4 is just a prop.

Posted by: Jackstand Feb 11 2008, 10:48 PM

Well, actually, if they can only attack purely astral entities with Astral Combat skill, having a weapon focus wouldn't help, since they aren't allowed to default to the skill from their willpower.

What they could do, possibly, is make an attack of will.

Street Magic p.94


I suppose that is actually the same as defaulting to Astral Combat, but without the -1 die penalty for defaulting. The downside to that theory is that it seems that the attack of will is intended for use against physically present spirits. It could be our answer, though.

Posted by: Daier Mune Feb 12 2008, 02:27 AM

heh, i don't know why i didn't think of this sooner. if the Lucifer Lamp produces a dual natured beam of light, then that can be amplified and focused into a dual natured laser.

probably need a magicaly active focusing lense, and the illuminating coil would have to be replaced with every use...vehicular powered, obviously...

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 12 2008, 02:35 AM

You'd want to get a dual natured lasing substance. I suggest going to Nag Kampuchea and picking up some Naga Emeralds.

-Frank

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Feb 12 2008, 05:37 AM

So you endorse the Watcher beats every single dual natured creature currently in print solution?

Posted by: Ophis Feb 12 2008, 09:35 AM

I'd say that the obvious solution is that who ever did the stats for critters screwed up. There are several other examples of this just look at the first printing spirit stats. An errata that gave all the dual actives Astral combat would fix things.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 12 2008, 12:19 PM

But it still wouldn't be desirable, because many dual critters have a Charisma of 1. Dual critters should be using their natural weaponry (and thus their unarmed combat) against astral foes. Otherwise they can't hand out real damage on the astral and dual critters become a joke instead of a threat.

--

That and Ancient History's statement that any attack against an astral target is Astral Combat is flat wrong, because we are primarily speaking about Weapon Foci, which specifically use your physical attributes and close combat skills to attack astral forms. As stated in the description of the focus in question.

So the universal general case that Ancient History is alluding to does not exist. And attempting to make it universal law would be bad for the game and the world.

-Frank

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 12 2008, 12:37 PM

Except that astral combat clearly covers attacks with weapon foci against astral targets, as given in the table, whereas your suggestion is "I attack the air and hope to hit something."

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 12 2008, 12:45 PM

All attacks go through the air and hope to hi something. But in any case, astral combat covers attacks with weapon foci by astral wielders, not neceessarily ones against astral targets.



Got that? Physical attributes and skills against astral forms. Black and white. Ancient History: read the book.

-Frank

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 12 2008, 01:42 PM

I could say the same to you, Frank. There's no precedent for trying to stab astral space.

Posted by: Fuchs Feb 12 2008, 01:48 PM

The wording of p. 191-192 is clear. One paragraph deals with physical combat, including astrally perceiving characters, the other with astrally projecting characters. So, Frank's right.

Any other interpretation runs counter to logic, and systematic.

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 12 2008, 01:52 PM

The reason there's no paragraph expressly dealing with non-astrally perceiving or projecting characters attacking purely astral entities is because it can't happen.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Feb 12 2008, 02:01 PM

Well, as demonstrated, it can.
Sure, it's unlikely and difficult...

Posted by: Raij Feb 12 2008, 02:06 PM

If they were not astrally perceiving and not dual natured, they would have no need to attack purely astral entities because they are not in danger of being attacked by them.

The issue is with dual natured (thus always astrally perceiving) beings who can see what's attacking them but can do nothing about it.. unless you count their natural attacks as weapon focus for purposes of being able to hit spirits as per 193, allowing them to roll with physical attributes)

The Critters book already says:



and



edit: added Critter quotes

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 12 2008, 02:11 PM

That's just because the critters as stated lack the Astral Combat skill. If you want them to attack something in the astral in your game, give it to them and the problem's solved.

What I really want to disabuse is Frank's idea of trying to stab blindly at an astral being with an active weapon focus.

Posted by: Fuchs Feb 12 2008, 02:19 PM

Much easier (and much more logical) to let people and critters that use their bodies to attack something use their physical skills to attack something as well, no matter if they happen to be astrally perceiving or not. I can't really see why anyone would assume an adept or dual natured critter would not hit/bite an astrally projecting foe any differently than he'd hit a physically present foe. They are limited by their bodies still, so they should use physical skills.

Posted by: Raij Feb 12 2008, 02:33 PM

Because an adept who is not astrally perceiving is not astrally active. He casts an aura on the astral plane of course, but he does not become an astral form until he astrally perceives. The only thing that can collide with an astral form is an astral form. A dual natured being is astrally active though, and I agree should be able to do as you say. But an adept should only be able to if he is astrally perceiving IMO. If he wasn't, his fists would go clean through the astral form. A weapon focus seems like it would hit (since it is astrally active even if the adept is currently not) but the sentence below seems to imply otherwise.

page 182

Posted by: FrankTrollman Feb 12 2008, 02:38 PM

1. The Focus is Dual Natured. The spirit can attack the focus.
2. Closing your eyes and attacking blindly is entirely legitimate as a tactic in physical and astral combat. You suffer a -6 penalty to your attack pool.
3. You aren't in this case attacking completely blindly, as the light outline has clearly delineated exactly where your target is and is not.

This is exactly like FAB. And that in turn is pretty much the same as the example of attacking an astral being with a physical weapon focus while you personally are astrally perceiving. Your sword is astrally perceiving whether you personally are or not. If you happen to get an analog to the information that astral perception would have granted you, that's very much more like astrally perceiving yourself than it is like astrally projecting and hitting the target with the spirit form of your sword.

And in the case where you are active on the physical plane and swinging a weapon focus at a completely astral spirit, you roll Agility + Blades + Weapon Force; as depicted explicitly in the description of the weapon focus.

-Frank

Posted by: Fuchs Feb 12 2008, 02:38 PM

I meant an astrally perceiving adept - I am arguing that it makes no sense to require dual-natured beings use astral combat skill and not physical combat skill if they hit with their fists/claws at astrally projecting foes.

Posted by: Raij Feb 12 2008, 02:43 PM

Then I agree completely with your argument.



Except for one main difference, when using a Lucifer Lamp you do not become astrally active (whereas using astral perception you do)

Posted by: Ancient History Feb 12 2008, 02:50 PM

Because both the spirit and the focus are on the same plane; the focus, however, had no intelligence and cannot attack on its lonesome.


On the physical, yes. In the astral you can't "close your eyes" because you're not actually using your eyes to perceive. At best you can have an equivalent modifier because of local conditions, but the difference is an astrally perceiving or projecting character is still on the same plane.




Uh, no. What the hell are you getting at here? FAB might be dual natured, but it doesn't go for you-except for FAB-III, and that still only goes for astral or dual-natured targets, and not with a traditional attack. A focus does not astrally perceive, it's just a dual-natured construct.


I disagree. The description of the weapon focus is clearly only applying to its use in physical attacks against a physical target in that instance. You use Blades skill, then you're attacking the air, not the spirit that might co-exist in that spot on the astral, maybe, which you have no way of knowing because you're not astrally perceiving at the time.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 12 2008, 02:53 PM

Adepts I don't think should be able to hit with their normal attacks, unless its weapon foci. Its the dual nature critters normal form that is in both plains. Astrally perceiving shouldn't be enough to negate astral combat. Since an adept isn't fully a dual-nature critter, they should still use their will to attack, unless they have a foci which is dual natured.

So, Astrally illuminated provides target.
Weapon Foci can attack using physical stats
Adept can attack using Astral Combat
Dual Natured Critter can attack using physical stats
Magician can attack using Non-Physical Spells

Thats my breakdown...

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 12 2008, 02:58 PM

I think we all agree that it is clearly not clear in the RAW.
If we change the discussion to say mages and spells. There is clearly stated that mages cannot cast spells across planes. An astral mage cannot cast to a physical target unless that physical target is also astrally active (perceiving/ dual natured) The same is true the other way, mana spells cannot target manifested mages (physical to astral) unless the casting mage also is perceiving making him dual natured for the time.

The few exceptions are Wards, Lodges and spells such as Mana Barrier. Now the real difference between Mana Barrier and Mana Ball/ Bolt is the damaging nature of the spell itself.

A mage could not from physical cast a Mana Ball in an area that he can see clear shadows from a Lucifer Lamp and hit those targets. He can cast but there is nothing to be hit.

However, the same mage can cast a Mana Barrier between over or around the shadow, thus trapping the spirit in a location in the astral plane cast from the physical plane. (iirc it can be cast as a dome or sphere ala cage)

So it seems the unspoken/ unwritten word is that Damaging effects cannot cross planes without the wielder or caster also being present on that plane. Perceiving, dual natured...

Where as non Damaging effects can be cast across planes, ala Mana Barrier

So in the case of FAB or the Lucifer Lamp they only permit a 'glimpse' of the astral forms and an indirect oen at that.

Posted by: Raij Feb 12 2008, 03:04 PM

The only problem with that statement is that astrally perceiving adepts are by definition considered dual natured. (pg 182)

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Feb 12 2008, 03:06 PM

--It is defined as dual-natured, but I see it as less dual-natured than the critter. The critter doesn't suffer the penalties for viewing both worlds at the same time, so there's already precedence of them being a different type of dual natured than adepts.

Hmmm... Ok with that thought that its seen and not there. It would be quite similar to a spirit or a mage manifesting (not materializing).

So with that thought in mind and not wanting adepts to attack manifested spirits/mages with their weapon foci (I use this often to threaten runners, or to give them warning, before the hammer comes down). For the purpose of the lamp, I'm jumping over and saying that you can't attack something illuminated by the lamp. But the dual-natured should still be able to tear everything apart using physical stats. The adept will have to astrally perceive in order to attack the illuminated/manifested being.

I hate jumping sides, but allowing them to hit the illuminated ruins one of my tricks with magic...

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 12 2008, 05:47 PM

Are you 100% sure you can do that with a mana barrier? Or does a mana barrier cast on the physical plane just protect against manifesting spirits and spells cast on the physical plane?

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 12 2008, 06:27 PM

Moon-hawk:
Not with my book(s) right now, the quick reread I did this morning under Mana Barriers lead me to that.

I believe it said that a Mana Barrier spell does not affect the physical world, but is a barrier to astral forms. Whether cast on the physical or Astral.

Will someone with the book at hand quote it?
(described under Mana Barriers section)

Posted by: Raij Feb 12 2008, 06:33 PM

Slightly confusing. It says cast on the physical plane it restricts "spirits", but that could mean manifested spirits since a spirit in it's natural form is an "astral form" (which it impedes when cast on the astral).

What would be different about an unmaterialized spirit versus say.. a projecting mage? Why would it only block the spirit and not the mage's astral form?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Feb 12 2008, 06:47 PM

I was just going to say the same thing. Between the section on Mana Barriers and the spell decription for Mana Barrier, it does say that Mana Barrier cast on the physical plane blocks spirits. One could take that to mean all spirits, or only spirits on the physical plane, i.e. materialized spirits. I'm pretty darn sure that it is intending to refer only to spirits on the physical plane, because of the line "If cast on the astral plane, it also impedes astral forms..." which makes it pretty darn clear to me that if it's cast on the physical plane it does NOT impede astral forms, such as unmaterialized spirits.

Yes, this means that your mage can only capture a spirit with a mana barrier if he astrally perceives or projects and casts it on the astral plane. It also means that the attacking spirit can completely bypass a Mana Barrier cast on the physical plane simply by dematerializing, moving past it, and rematerializing. But I'm okay with that, capturing a spirit is essentially an attack, and the mage should have to make himself vulnerable to the astral to pull it off.

So in summary, it looks to me that although Mana Barrier (the spell) can be cast on the physical OR the astral, it is not a dual-natured barrier. (like a ward, lodge, etc) This means that the creation of dual-natured wards remains (so far) outside the limits of Sorcery. You can't make one with a spell. But at least that keeps spellcasting consistent.

edited: formatting, aka block of text of doom!

Posted by: Slymoon Feb 12 2008, 07:20 PM

I can see that and will definately concede that point.

The rest of the arguement stands though.






(as far as the spirit dematerializing/ rematerializing)

As GM what would you do with a spirit that has a kill order and the target drops a mana barrier.

Materialize, Mana Barrier Spell, Dematerialize, Rematerialize, *SMACK*
or
Materialize, Mana Barrier Spell, Attempt a Beatdown of the barrier, then kill the target?