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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Priority vs. Points

Posted by: Azryl Dec 2 2003, 12:36 AM

Call me a traditionalist but i prefer the priority system, It seems like most dumpshockers' prefer the points system,be it Becks or SRcomp. What are the pros and cons of the three character creation systems?

Posted by: moosegod Dec 2 2003, 12:41 AM

Never used BECKS.

I like points because of the comparitive flexibility. I think the required costs for metavariants, changeling, etc. are ridiculous, however. It also has that customizability edge.

I use Priority a lot, mostly with younger(age or experience) players.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Azryl)

...the three character creation systems?

You forgot Sum-to-10.

Posted by: Bearclaw Dec 2 2003, 12:49 AM

I prefer the point system. It's got bugs, but I prefer it anyway.

I think they overcharge for b class magic users. I mean really, 20 would be much closer to reasonable than 25.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 2 2003, 12:57 AM

Becks is complicated and time-consuming, but nice if you don't mind that.

Priorities are good for new players, but they're so . . . channeling. For example, if you pick Priority A for magic, then you WILL have lousy attributes, skills, money, or two of three if you really screw your choices up.

I like the point-based system in SRComp, which my GM does not own and therefore does not allow . . . Hmm . . . a Christmas idea, that . . .

Hey, Azryl, that SRComp e-mail getcha thinking?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 2 2003, 01:18 AM

Advantages to:

Priority: I hear there are certain characters that can be made under Priority that come out at close to 130 build points or so, an advantage even with my usual 128 build point allowance. Other than that, I really can't say anything to recommend it aside from the fact that it typically takes the least time to sort out how much to allot where.

Build points: simple, flexible, compatible, beautiful. Most additions (Otaku, SURGE, edges/flaws) are written mostly for it, and as such fit in far better than any other system. My preferred system, and one that IMO makes Priority essentially obsolete for most purposes.

BeCKS: A very detailed system that tends to produce characters with lots of mid-range skills rather than a few high-level skills. Called by some the best system to combat munchkinism, I've found it to be quite munchkinable but with an eye more towards "munched generalists" who do one thing well and nearly everything else acceptably rather than people who roll salad bowls of dice for a single type of task. Just too much trouble to be worth it for me.

Sum-to-10: never used it, never seen it used, am scared of the possibilities within it.

~J

Posted by: Azryl Dec 2 2003, 01:19 AM

No, the request in another post, wanted to consult the sprits of dumpshock

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 2 2003, 02:07 AM

I'm a fan of Sum-to-Ten Priorities. It's well balanced despite what the Build Point System suggests, elegant, and all but forces characters to have strengths and weaknesses. With the Build Point system, characters tend to look pretty identical within the same basic concept group (especially mundane humans).

I also like it when an Edge is countered by a Flaw and vice-versa, so with the Sum-to-Ten Priority system, that's guaranteed, whereas with BP you can get away without one or the other. I'm not a fan of Otaku or Shapeshifters, so that works nicely, and I've always treated Metahuman Variants exactly the same as Metahumans for both Priority and Build Point purposes simply because I love their flavor and they're self-balanced to begin with.

So yeah, Sum-to-Ten Priority for me when I'm GMing.

Posted by: Catsnightmare Dec 2 2003, 02:24 AM

It depends on what type of character I'm making. For mundane characters I use the Build Point system. But for magical characters I use Priority cause the awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 02:35 AM

QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)

...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 2 2003, 03:01 AM

I tend to frown on Sum-to-10, only because you can be a Mundane Human and take another 10 points in Resources, Attributes, and Skills.

Can you say "Ouch?"

Priority limits far too much, you usually need just that one last skill point, and you can't do jack about it because you can't switch resources/attributes to skills.

Build Point is quite nice, but the costs for things are just a tad out there.

BeCKS is also good, but with so much math that you have to do to get to the "average" 425 point character, it's just painful.

I tend to like SR2's handling of metahumanity. Either Race A if the More Metahumans rule is not in effect (Then they get 2 Karma Pool instead of 1, as well), or Race C if it is (1 Karma Pool). That tends to keep the races all equal (Since they more or less are) and keeps everybody from being a metahuman at the same time. Joe Munchkin can't take Resources A, Attributes B, and Skills C and still be a metahuman. He has to sacrifice something (Probably skills) to be one then. Whereas in SR3, you can be either Dwarf or Ork if you go that route.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 2 2003, 03:04 AM

...I just read this topic as "Priority vs. Pants".

Time to sleep, I think.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome Dec 2 2003, 03:06 AM

It's not that the BP system favors mundanes, it seems to favor mundane humans. However, that's just because mundane humans get screwed over by the priority system (since they waste the equivalent of 5 points on a null choice whereas non-mundanes, and non-humans do not).

For the rest, I've found that BeCKS leads to moderation in most things except for spell points (which are cheap) and specializations (which are the way to go for most skills under BeCKS). It is, by far, the most customizable of the systems, but also the most open to abuse.

Sum-to-10 isn't one I use, but it seems no better or worse than the others. It's somewhere between priority and BPs in terms of detail and doesn't look abusable.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 2 2003, 03:17 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

I tend to frown on Sum-to-10, only because you can be a Mundane Human and take another 10 points in Resources, Attributes, and Skills.

Can you say "Ouch?"

A Skills, A Attributes, C Resources, E Race, E Magic = 125 Build Points
A Skills, B Attributes, B Resources, E Race, E Magic = 124 Build Points
A Attributes, B Resources, B Skills, E Race, E Magic = 120 Build Points
A Resources, A Attributes, C Skills, E Race, E Magic = 114 Build Points

Average of those four: 120.75 Build Points. Yeah, "ouch."

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 2 2003, 03:21 AM

Maybe it's just that the possibility of multiple As feels unbalanced.

~J

Posted by: 6thDragon Dec 2 2003, 03:24 AM

I've never heard of the sum-to-ten system, but I've played with all the rest.

BeCKs is my far the best in my book. I've seen too many players min-max they're characters with the other two. It's a bit more complex, but then again; this is shadowrun everything's a bit more complex. If you want simple system, I suggest D&D. The priority system isn't flexible, and I'd have to agree the BP system favors mundane humans. The priority system works better with the metavariants and edges flaws from SRComp.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 2 2003, 03:35 AM

Sum-to-Ten is in SRComp, I think it's right before Build Points.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 2 2003, 03:43 AM

It's in 2nd ed SRComp. 'Twas taken out in 3rd.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Dec 2 2003, 03:45 AM

Fair enough. Might be why I couldn't find an exact page. FanPro probably looked at it and barely refrained from ripping hair out.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 04:01 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

FanPro probably looked at it and barely refrained from ripping hair out.

I doubt it, considering the SR3 Companion was originally produced by FASA.

Posted by: 6thDragon Dec 2 2003, 04:02 AM

Uh, that's right now I remember the sum-to-ten. It sounds simple, and a little more flexible, but I can see ways to min-max. Especially for human mundanes.

Posted by: Voorhees Dec 2 2003, 04:05 AM

What exactly is it?

Posted by: OurTeam Dec 2 2003, 04:09 AM

Sum to 10:
Think of priority A as 4.
Think of priority B as 3. C=2. D=1. E=0.
You get any combination of priorities that add up to 10.
So two A's, one C, and two E's add to 10.
So does three B's, a D, and an E.

Provides some variety, and allows things like Full Magician with 1,000,000 .

Posted by: Voorhees Dec 2 2003, 04:11 AM

Ingenious...

Thanks.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 04:12 AM

QUOTE (Voorhees @ Dec 2 2003, 03:05 PM)

What exactly is it?

Simply the Priority system with a twist.

The Priorities are translated into numbers as follows:

A = 4
B = 3
C = 2
D = 1
E = 0

Then simply assign the catagories so that they add up to 10. For example, a mundane human gun-bunny might choose Resourses A (costing 4), Attributes B (costing 3), Skills B (still costing 3), and Race and Magic E (costing ) each), which when added together comes to 10, hence the name.

Edit: Took me a while to type with my broken arm, so I'll leave it up even if it's a little late.

Posted by: Zazen Dec 2 2003, 04:21 AM

How'd you break your arm?

Posted by: Glyph Dec 2 2003, 04:22 AM

The build point system is easier to customize to an individual campaign, but I would use the Priority System if I, for example, did a number of archetypes to put on a web page. The build point system uses varying numbers of points, but the Priority System stays constant. My personal opinion is that the GM should probably pick one or the other for his/her campaign, simply for the sake of consistency. My own opinion is mixed. The build point system is more flexible, but there are certain character concepts that are easier to do in the Priority or Sum-to-Ten systems. BeCKS is fun, but I agree that it is not a magical munchkin cure. Still, at least you are likelier to have a combat munchkin with a few low scores for Etiquette or Stealth, rather than neglecting them entirely.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 2 2003, 03:21 PM)

How'd you break your arm?

I lost a fight with an escalator a few weeks ago, resulting in a shattered elbow (you should see the x-rays...they're hilarious). I had to wait a week in the hospital for the doctors to be able to rebuild it, because they had to wait for parts. I felt like a used car.

Posted by: Zazen Dec 2 2003, 05:11 AM

They needed to install parts. Jesus.

Well, sorry to hear that. Hope you're getting a settlement or something, at least.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 05:15 AM

Thanks. I'm definitely going to try!

Posted by: Tanka Dec 2 2003, 05:19 AM

Hey, can I have some of the settlement money? I'm a poor college kid.

Posted by: Dende Dec 2 2003, 05:28 AM

But how many of us could say that?

[raises his hand]

Anywho, his broken arm = his money.

Posted by: mfb Dec 2 2003, 06:00 AM

gotta watch those escalators. they're crafty!

i use the point system because it's easier to squeeze every last fractional percent of an ounce out of my characters.

Posted by: Catsnightmare Dec 2 2003, 06:39 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)

...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Here's some examples based on some of my characters and some of the SR3 book archatypes

Reverse engineering the Priority choices to points and comparing them against the 123 Point standard in the SRC.

My Sorcerer char, A:Resources, B:Magic, C:Attributes, D:Skills, E: Human = 133 Build Points, ten points short.
Street Sam archatype = 118 Build points, 5 extra points
Combat Mage archatype = 126 build points, 3 points short
Adept archatype = 124 Build points, 1 short
Weapon Specialist archatype = 114 Build points, 9 bonus points
Street Mage archatype = 129 Build points, 6 short
Ganger archtype = 115 Build points, 8 bonus points

Posted by: Diesel Dec 2 2003, 07:18 AM

I like Becks. Nothing like Pistols/Predator 1/7.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 2 2003, 07:25 AM

You can't do that with BeCKs. Specializations cannot exceed twice the Base Skill rating, save for the one condition of a Skill 1 (Specialization 3). It's a core rule.

Posted by: Sphynx Dec 2 2003, 08:31 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Catsnightmare @ Dec 2 2003, 01:24 PM)

...awakened get screwed by the Build Point system, it favors mundanes.

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Resources A: 30 BP
Magic B: 25 BP
Attributes C: 48 BP
Dwarf D: 5 BP
Skills E: 27 BP
Total 10: 135

Personally, I love the BP system more (and I play a rich dwarven shaman always) because:
1) 650,000. I love spells and want 50 Spell Points at char gen. I can sacrifice foci, etc, but I want to spend that 375,000 for 50 total spell points. With Priority, that leaves me trying to find a way to spend an additional 625,000... I also like to have at least 2 Force 5 Sustaining Foci for 150,000 so that leaves me with enough cash to accessorize without having to buy a limo and luxurious lifestyle.

2) So so so easy to adapt to your own needs, like my more-magically active campaigns where I use the http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/BP.htm that let's you customize your magic.

3) Rich Dwarven Mages are overpowered in Priority... I don't play dwarf because the +4 attribute, I play them because I like talking in a gruff voice with a very fake sounding irish accent and talking loudly and bolsterously and making comments about finding part of last night's dinner in my beard (Ok, I come from a classic medieval fantasy genre...

). I don't mind being 'as weak' as the rest of the group, but I also don't like people categorizing me as munchkin because I want to 'roleplay' a dwarf with 50 spell points. (PS. Using the alternative BP system, I often do a poor character even)

4) Edges/Flaws/Surge. I love these things, of course people will say I choose DualNatured to be a munchkin, but I honestly just love the concept.

Unfortunately, the BP system tends to make all mundanes with 60 points of Attributes, 30 points of Resources, and remaining BP on skills and race. As the Doc says, the mundanes are almost mirrors of each other on how their BP is spent. Not that it's alot of difference in Priority (A:Resources,B:Attributes,C:Skills) or ToTen:(A:Resources,A:Attributes,C:Skills), but it tends to happen alot more with BP I think.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 08:39 AM

I don't like groggies. How about a full mage example?

Posted by: Sphynx Dec 2 2003, 09:20 AM

Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP.

Sphynx

Posted by: Crusher Bob Dec 2 2003, 09:38 AM

That escalator sounds pretty munchy, what build system did it use?

My preference is for BECKs since I feel it tends to produce much more 'realistic' characters who know a few things outside of their area of specialty. (so the combat monsters aren't choosing between guns 4, etiquette 2 or guns 6).

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 2 2003, 02:28 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Just reverse A/B, 30+25 or 20+30 is only a 5 BP difference, 130 BP.

Sphynx

And yet you still end up with a magician with only 24 Attribute points and 27 Skill points. Ooh. Ahh. (And yes, for most people, 27 Skill points is pretty pathetic, Sphynx.)

Posted by: TinkerGnome Dec 2 2003, 02:29 PM

Mages can get by with 27 skill points without too much trouble. Particularly aspected mages.

Posted by: Cochise Dec 2 2003, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

I see people say this a lot, but nobody really comes out and outlines exactly how it does so.

Pretty simple:
Try to recreate any type of magician you can create with the priority system with the build point system (using the suggested 120 points) and you'll end up lacking some build point for most of them.

Example:
Full Magican A = 30
Human E = 0
27 Attr. B = 54
90.000¥ C = 10
30 Skillpoints D = 30

Sum in Point System = 124

Archetype directly from the core rules:

Elven Street Mage:
Full Magician A = 30
Elf C = 10
21 Attr. D = 42
400.000¥ B = 20
27 Skillpoints = 27

Sum in Point System = 129

The picture changes, once you start building characters that cannot be created with the priority sys

[Edit]Note to myself: Never go for a coffee break[/Edit]

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 2 2003, 02:36 PM

And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 2 2003, 02:43 PM

The Doc brings up a good point. Small changes in build points aren't really that significant. I always give out 128 build points, because I like powers of 2, 64 is too little, and 256 is too much. A typical 123-point character will still be on nearly an equal footing with the 128-pointer, despite the fact that the 5 points is worth nearly an entire extra skill to 6 or another level of resources (or the difference between a groggy and a mage).

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Dec 2 2003, 03:05 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

And yet, despite what the Build Point system suggests, such character's aren't overpowered or inherently munchkiny.

I agree 100%.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 3 2003, 01:25 AM

Personally, I like the point-based system because it allows the GM a tremendous amount of leeway to customize his game. Some examples:

1) In another thread, I foolishly brought up the "Why are elves so expensive and dwarves so cheap?" thing . . . <bangs head on desk> But let's suppose I'm GM'ing and I want to adjust the race costs. I can't do that with the Priority system or Sum-to-10, but with the point-based system, I can easily say Humans 0, Orks 3, Elves 6, Dwarves 9, and Trolls 12. (I don't like trolls.)

2) Let's also suppose that I want magic to be rarer and therefore more special. With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, well, who cares what I want? With the point-based system, I can make adepts cost 25, aspected magicians cost 30, and full magicians cost 35.

3) What if I don't like rich characters (because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years (or decades, if they invest well))? With the Priority system and Sum-to-10, oh well. With the point-based system, I can make 0 points worth 10k, 5 worth 20k, 10 worth 40k, 15 worth 80k, 20 worth 160k, 25 worth 320k, and 30 worth 640k . . which is still a hell of a lot of cash, but the player would really have to make sacrifices to get that much.

4) On a final note, what if I want to power up or power down a character? Give a new player some advantage over the old pros? Control an unrepentant munchkin? Bring a replacement character up to speed with some experienced ones? 120, 123, 125 . . . they're just numbers, and can be adjusted at will. (So can the 30 Attribute points cap and the spell points cap, for that matter.)

My point is, the point-based system in SRComp puts the GM in control of character creation, as s/he should be!

Now if Azryl would only modify the campaign . . .

(And, Azryl, if you go with Sum-to-10 after I made a mundane human, I'll spike your Pepsi with Ex-Lax! )

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 01:28 AM

QUOTE (Chodav @ Dec 3 2003, 12:25 PM)

...because anyone with a million nuyen isn't going to buy 947,000 nuyen worth of cyberware, 53,900 nuyen worth of weapons, and a lifestyle of squatter for one month - they're going to retire to the Caymans for a few years or decades, if they invest well...

Resources of 1,000,000¥ doesn't necessarily mean that the character had that in cash. It is merely a measure of what he has accumulated over the years, by many different means.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 3 2003, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

Resources of 1,000,000¥ doesn't necessarily mean that the character had that in cash. It is merely a measure of what he has accumulated over the years, by many different means.

True, but anyone who can accumulate a million nuyen over a relatively short period of time has no need to run the shadows with the rest of us. What's the average starting age of most million-nuyen characters? Where did the money come from? Who did they sell their soul to? How many enemies do they have? Why are they living in a rundown tenement when they could have afforded so much more?

Some people take the time to think up answers to these questions, but how many munchkins have you met who took the million and acted like it was nothing unusual?

Exact specifics of where the money comes from aside, I stand by my assertion that anyone with a million nuyen has no reason to accept a job shaking up a Barrens gang for 10,000 and all the BTL's they can carry away from the smoking ruin of the gang's headquarters . . .

With the possible exception of deckers - most hackers I've met are psychotic enough that they do stupid things despite the total lack of need . . .

Posted by: Siege Dec 3 2003, 01:42 AM

As much as I dislike characters built on the million nuyen premise, it can be spent in non-lopsided fashions.

All the characters I've ever seen with the million-nuyen gear allotment spent it on cyber and more cyber and didn't really justify why they had more 'ware than most cyberzombies.

More accurately, I accept that there may one day be a million-nuyen character that wasn't built in a factory and soaked in spray-painted flesh tones.

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 01:43 AM

QUOTE (Chodav)

What's the average starting age of most million-nuyen characters? Where did the money come from? Who did they sell their soul to? How many enemies do they have? Why are they living in a rundown tenement when they could have afforded so much more?

Some people take the time to think up answers to these questions, but how many munchkins have you met who took the million and acted like it was nothing unusual?

It varies. There are a lot of answers. There are a lot of REASONABLE answers.
Plus, if you're running the Shadows because you want to make a difference, and I hand you a million nuyen, you're either going to spend that on stuff to help you run or you weren't really intent on making a difference in the first place.

QUOTE

Exact specifics of where the money comes from aside, I stand by my assertion that anyone with a million nuyen has no reason to accept a job shaking up a Barrens gang for 10,000 and all the BTL's they can carry away from the smoking ruin of the gang's headquarters . . .

But they don't have a million nuyen. They have a million nuyen worth of stuff. If most of that stuff is inside their body, it isn't going to keep them from starving when their actual cash reserve starts running low. Nor will it buy them a fake ID when the Star starts looking for them.

~J

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 01:45 AM

You'll note that the category is called 'Resources', and not 'Nuyen'.

The character may never have seen even a tenth of that million ¥, but might have been paid in cyber, or acquired things in other nefarious ways. The category also includes Contacts, which really have nothing to do with money, but are a very important resource.

I'll agree that most people that have 1,000,000¥ in their hand at any one time would probably not pursue a shadowrunning carreer (but some still would), but that is not the way the Resource category works.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 3 2003, 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Plus, if you're running the Shadows because you want to make a difference, and I hand you a million nuyen, you're either going to spend that on stuff to help you run or you weren't really intent on making a difference in the first place.

If most of that stuff is inside their body . . .

True - someone with heroic urges might take the million and run (pun intended). That's a reasonable explanation, which is what I was suggesting many million-nuyen characters don't have. (From a factory and spray-painted in flesh tones - now that was funny!)

If most of that stuff is inside their body, how did it get there? Who paid? Again, it's a background issue. I'm not saying that million-nuyen characters are ridiculous so much as the munchkins who often play them are.

Now, contacts . . . Oh, my, think of how many you could buy with a million . . .

Posted by: OurTeam Dec 3 2003, 02:00 AM

Contacts ..... my first Face character listed Contacts as "one of each". Yes, he started with high resources.

Posted by: Azryl Dec 3 2003, 02:03 AM

The same argument could be said of taking 50 skill points, its a rare 20 year old that's world class in anything. Its all in the background. I personally make my characters a little older to make room for the years of experience that helped them gain the skill knowledge, the million nuyen, or whatever.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 02:03 AM

QUOTE (Chodav)

Even assuming a character with a million nuyen in Resources were a millionaire (and as others have pointed out, that simply isn't the case 99% of the time), the chance to earn a cool 10,000 nuyen plus the profit from the gods-only-know-how-many BTL chips for a few hours work is tempting.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 02:04 AM

Most munchkins just go with the stock "oh, he was a corporate assassin who vanished, paying a decker to delete all records of his existence."
Which isn't a bad example for maybe a handful of actual runners over the course of the Shadowrun world. It's once you start getting the numbers of these into the hundreds from all the munchy players out there that it gets silly.

~J

Posted by: OurTeam Dec 3 2003, 02:06 AM

After the first handful disappeared, the corp made another handful and sent them after the first handful. They disappeared too. And so on.

Posted by: Siege Dec 3 2003, 02:10 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

QUOTE (Chodav @ Dec 2 2003, 07:36 PM)

It's a little less tempting when you realize all it takes is one lucky burst to ruin your day, maybe your week if it's APDS.

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 02:11 AM

If you're an experienced runner and they're really a gang, it's free money. If they have APDS, you go back to the J and demand medical costs plus additional compensation because no basic gangbusting run should involve APDS rounds.

~J

Posted by: Siege Dec 3 2003, 02:18 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 3 2003, 02:11 AM)

True, true -- there's always gonna be that one silly little fragger with a full mag that he inherited from his brother on his deathbed just in case.

He's got that one Ingram labeled "Just in case", ingraved in gold and silver with custom grips and that slightly hinky smartlink that doesn't work unless ya bang it just so...

-Siege

Edit: If you have thousands of corporate assassins disappearing into the shadows, I suspect low-rent thugs will be investing in "anti-corporate assassin" magical items.

Posted by: 6thDragon Dec 3 2003, 02:29 AM

In the campaigns I find myself in, players often take the million nuyen with little to no explanation. I've played two characters with the one million nuyen option. My backgrounds:
1. Former Urban Brawler who was expelled from the league for fixing games for the Yakuza.
2. Former Witness Protection specialist who gave a few of them up for the money. Now he has a big hunted flaw, but lots of cyber.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 3 2003, 02:34 AM

QUOTE (Azryl)

I personally make my characters a little older to make room for the years of experience . . .

I personally do the same - I think the youngest of all the ones I've made was 25.

Sorry, Azryl, I didn't mean to hijack your thread and take it into "explain the money" country. I'm kind of surprised that of all the things I said in my post about the point-based system, that's the only one that generated comment. You'd think that someone would have jumped my case for saying I hate trolls and they would cost 12 in my campaign . . .

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 02:39 AM

You stated that you hated trolls. You didn't say you hated trolls and they had no reason to exist, or you hated trolls and thought they were unbalanced, or you hated trolls and everyone who plays trolls is a munchkin. You merely made a statement of opinion. What were we going to say? You lie! You really love trolls and think everyone should be one!
My characters vary in age, but are typically in their late 20s.

~J

Posted by: Azryl Dec 3 2003, 02:41 AM

Ok i'll jump on your case nothing beats a troll with double digit body and stregth, dikoted kantana, and wire reflexes 3

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 02:49 AM

QUOTE (Azryl @ Dec 3 2003, 01:41 PM)

...nothing beats a troll with double digit body and stregth, dikoted kantana, and wire reflexes 3

Sure there is! A troll with double digit body and strength, dikoted claymore, and wired reflexes 3.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 02:55 AM

Dikoted telephone pole. You get another point or two of Reach that way.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 02:59 AM

Pfft. Troll + Ranger-X Bow = No Chance To Survive.

Posted by: Chodav Dec 3 2003, 03:05 AM

QUOTE (Azryl)

Ok i'll jump on your case

nothing beats a troll with double digit body and stregth, dikoted kantana, and wire reflexes 3

I hate players like you . . .

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 03:20 AM

Psht. A troll with a ranger-X only deals about as much damage as an assault cannon, only starts at M, and doesn't have the 2.4 km range.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Dec 3 2003, 03:36 AM

QUOTE (Chodav @ Dec 2 2003, 08:36 PM)

True, but anyone who can accumulate a million nuyen over a relatively short period of time has no need to run the shadows with the rest of us...

Not true. They got it somewhere, whether it be by needing the edge, so they saved up/stole it/earned it somehow. They might've gotten it from a chop-shop they hit recently, or they might've gotten it as a present from their chummers. Just because you start with 1,000,000

does not mean the character has had a total of 1,000,000

in possession throughout his entire life.

You do know the average amount of money it takes to raise one child from birth to 18 is approximately $1,000,000? Do you have that much in stuff? No! It's used on food, clothing, life needs, and other things like toys. The average includes gifts given to the child.

What makes a 'runner so different? That must also mean a Full Mage with Sorcery 6 (Which is pretty damn good) shouldn't be on the streets, because he could obviously be teaching at MIT&T.

Oh, and, who says they saved up the 1,000,000

straight? It comes in bits and pieces, then goes in chunks for lifestyle, living expenses, and SOTA.

Edit: Same Troll, but with a Dikoted No-dachi.

Posted by: Glyph Dec 3 2003, 04:24 AM

I think there are lots of runners who got their 'ware from a corporation or organized crime organization. I do think the old "They think he's dead/they're hunting him" thing gets old. There are plenty of good reasons they could be running the shadows, though. Maybe, like the former company man archetype, they realized what they were doing, got disgusted with it, and quit - but with no money and no prospects for legitimate work, they do what they used to do, only now they do it so they can retire and get out of the business altogether. Maybe they were former employees who were let go after a screw-up, or after they were made a scapegoat, or after the stresses of the job burned them out.

The company doesn't have to hunt down every single last employee! But I imagine that cybered corporate types have a high risk of burn-out, or screwing up and being fired, and so on, and the company probably chews people up and spits them out. They would arrive in the shadows with most of their money being withheld by the company to pay for their 'ware, with few options available to them other than running.

And remember that the company has economies of scale and cyber-facilities and personnel that they are paying whether they use them or not - the character is not as big of an "investment" to them, although they probably do screen the candidates thoroughly, and get a good number of years of hard use out of them before tossing them to the curb. I'm mentioning this because a lot of people seem to think that anyone with a lot of cyberware has to be either hunted by his/her former employer, or owned by his/her benefactors.

With mages, it's even easier to justify, since spellpoints, like contacts, are an abstract form of resources, and foci could easily be spoils of war or a gift from their mentor.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 04:29 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Psht. A troll with a ranger-X only deals about as much damage as an assault cannon, only starts at M, and doesn't have the 2.4 km range.

Not true at all. Regular dikoted tipped-arrows on a troll with a not-even-twinked-out Strength of 15 (Strength 9 + Bonus Attribute + Muscle Augmentation 4) do 20S damage alone. Heaven forbid the troll is an adept, which is most likely the case if they're using a bow. And the range is quite formidable, too.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 04:34 AM

But Dikote quickly makes the PAC the more cost-effective option, unless the GM houserules that you can batch-coat the arrows.

~J

Posted by: Dende Dec 3 2003, 04:46 AM

I'm sorry did you say Not twinked Str of 15...

Lets see...I could forgive the 9...possibly even 10, but 15...please. Unless you aren't assuming starting char...Unless you are talking 50+ karma into the game...anything above a 10 is just wrong. Hell even then a 10 is "best in the world...world renouned" abillity. Sure you could through in cyberware and extra adept boosts...But honestly... in a normal game why try to do that if you aren't twinking?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 04:56 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

But Dikote quickly makes the PAC the more cost-effective option, unless the GM houserules that you can batch-coat the arrows.

~J

Dikoting doesn't do much for a PAC; it's already at Deadly damage. At most, it gets +1 Power. Whooptido.

The Ranger is also silent and SA if memory serves.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Dende)

I'm sorry did you say Not twinked Str of 15...

This is a troll we're talking about. Doesn't seem that twinked to me, and can easily be done with a character straight out of chargen.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 05:06 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Dikoting doesn't do much for a PAC; it's already at Deadly damage. At most, it gets +1 Power. Whooptido.

I believe that he's saying if you add Dikote™ to your arrows, that makes the cost of the PAC seem reasonable in comparison. I don't think he meant to actually use Dikote™ on the PAC or it ammunition.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 05:10 AM

Fortune has it right.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 05:14 AM

Oops, sorry. For some reason I completely missed the "cost-effective" part. <smacks self> Even without Dikote, the Ranger is a superior weapon for a runner, mostly because it's far more legal, stealthy, and rapid fire. I'd rather do two stealthy 19M base wounds than one booming 18D base one that tells everyone within fifty city blocks exactly where I am.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 3 2003, 05:15 AM

So use Silence!

Posted by: Casazil Dec 3 2003, 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Psht. A troll with a ranger-X only deals about as much damage as an assault cannon, only starts at M

Unless you dikote the arrows

Also to add insult to injury try this one:

A Resourses, 1,000,000, muscle aug./toner 4, suprathyroid + what ever else you want.

B Adept, improved ability projectile 4-6, improved attribute str. 1-3

C Troll, nuff said!

D Attributes, cha. 1=3, intell. 1=3, quick. 1=2, str. 6=2, body 6=1, will. 3=3, 7 points left. Ok so this makes the stero typical slow, dumb, & ugly troll who cares. "Yo sludge kill it" "Ok you da boss"!

E Skills, Projectile weapons 6 pulled bows 7 then add some stealth, etiquette, unarmed combat, car?, negotiations? what ever does not matter it's a troll killing machine.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 3 2003, 05:24 AM

Looks like one of my Nameless Trolls!

I had way too many of those... Way too many...

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 05:45 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

...and rapid fire. I'd rather do two stealthy 19M base wounds than one booming 18D base one that tells everyone within fifty city blocks exactly where I am.

Don't you need to use a 'Ready Weapon' action whenever you use a bow? Wouldn't that make the rates-of-fire relatively similar?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 05:46 AM

Like I said, it was likely an adept who was weilding it. Namely, an adept with Quick-Draw.

Posted by: Cain Dec 3 2003, 05:49 AM

Back to the resources question: Look, let's take a starting decker who's built his own deck, and coded his own programs. He could easily have the equivalent of a million nuyen in hardware, but he's never come anywhere near that much cash.

Take a rigger who's got a level 2 or 3 contact with a vehicle facility. His backstory is that he built and designed his drones from scratch, salvaging parts from a junkyard. One or two maxed-out vehicles can easily be equal to a million nyuen; but the character never actually had a million in cash.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 05:50 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Like I said, it was likely an adept who was weilding it. Namely, an adept with Quick-Draw.

Fair enough.

Does the Quick Draw Edge actually double a bow's rat-of-fire for an Adept according to canon?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 05:54 AM

Quick-draw removes the ready weapon action necessary, so it's arguable that you could continually quick-draw. I'm not sure I'd allow it, but it's canon.

As for the bow being stealthy, it doesn't need to be stealthy when you have a 2+ kilometer head start

~J

Posted by: Glyph Dec 3 2003, 07:28 AM

I don't see any problem with using Quick Draw that way. Keep in mind that they do have to make a Quickness test each time (usually not that difficult). But if you couldn't use Quick Draw that way, there wouldn't be much point to taking it.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 12:35 PM

Jeesus... This thread sprung-up over night.

My 2000000.02 :

It's possible to create characters worth 135 BPs using the priorities system.

Wether that's imbalanced or not depends on wether or not you think the points system charges the right amount for magic.

You could just as easily say that the points system is imbalanced as it makes sammies, riggers, and deckers more powerful. The priorities system, after all, is the base character creation system from the book.

I think you should just let the players use the system they want. If they want to use the priorities system while the standard you are using is a high-point point-based then allow them to take some free edges or something

Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 12:55 PM

Oh yes, and my additions to the troll discussions: Trolls are probably just as well using No-Dachis as they are Katanas. The +1 TN mod they get for wielding a 2 handed weapon single-handedly is more than cancelled by the increased reach from the no-dachi (-1 tn to you and +1 tn to opponents).

The other factor is the power of the attacks. Assuming you're Dikoting both weapons; The No-Dachi does Str+2D while the katana does Str+4S. While I think we can agree that any (not-toll melee bunny) metahuman in combat with a trollish melee bunny would die, an armoured vehicle is another matter. It boils down to the fact that a katana can hurt a vehicle with 1 more point of armour (9 points of armour for a good strength troll) compared to the No-Dachi's (8 points for the same troll).

Posted by: Zazen Dec 3 2003, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Lilt)

The +1 TN mod they get for wielding a 2 handed weapon single-handedly is more than cancelled by the increased reach from the no-dachi (-1 tn to you and +1 tn to opponents).

Note that reach provides a TN bonus OR a penalty to your opponent, not both at the same time!

Posted by: Kurukami Dec 3 2003, 07:53 PM

I thought you could split the total up any way you wanted? Not to mention that trolls have a natural reach of 1, and the no-dachi grants (I think) 2, making a troll combat monster armed in that manner particularly icky.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 10:43 PM

Ah. Ok. I was getting this confused with friends in melee (where both the majority gets a plus and the minority gets a minus).

Posted by: nezumi Dec 3 2003, 11:43 PM

Don't forget ladies and gents, for melee and I believe bows you default to strength. If your strength is greater than 11 or 12, its to your advantage to default. I think I said this in another thread, I got a troll to 28 strength straight out of chargen, the only rule broken was I allowed cultured bioware (and I think I can eliminate that without losing strength). That means 28 dice on my 28S shot and I can still use a smart link : )

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 11:45 PM

Cultured bioware at chargen is not breaking a rule.
How'd you do this again?

~J

Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 11:56 PM

Impressive... I must remember that. You get on average 5 successes (same as a skill 6 character would without pool) but it actually scales slightly better as you add the first +5 of TN mods. It does, however become impossible (by the defaulting rules) to shoot something if you have a +6 mod. (That's why you aim...)

Posted by: Azryl Dec 4 2003, 01:00 AM

I have to say that is very impressive, nezumi.

Posted by: gknoy Dec 4 2003, 02:22 AM

QUOTE (Chodav)

True, but anyone who can accumulate a million nuyen over a relatively short period of time has no need to run the shadows with the rest of us.

It's not necessarily that they accumulated a million Nu and then went on a shopping spree. In the case of a sammie archetype, or whatnot, perhaps they started out as a merc, and got their first Smartlink installed, and maybe a set of spurs... then after a few missions, they were feeling outclassed by their older comrades, and used their bonus to get some vision augs (say, retinal mods) ... Later on, after a particularly nasty ambush that he and his team barely survived, our merc said, "you know, gotta get me some Wired Reflexes to keep up...", and got a loan from the unit to pay for it (taken out of his next year's paycheck ...).

As you can see, they've been paying for their wares with blood and sweat -- upgrading their cyber in order to keep up with the SOTA, so to speak, of their martial life. They probably have never had more than 10,000 nuyen in the bank at any given time, even. Their contacts might be old merc buddies, and their weapons might be unit surplus -- e.g., after he's left the unit to go solo, the unit decides to upgrade all their AK-98's to Ares Alphas, and offers him a good deal on some of the older arms.

That's always how I've seen the Resources. (Not that I've ever wanted to take the Mil, lol - heck, as a mundane human I usually have trouble spending 90k, since I don't want wired and MBW up the wazoo

)

Just my two cents =D

Posted by: Sphynx Dec 4 2003, 09:00 AM

QUOTE (nezumi)

I can tell you from experience that defaulting (for bows at least) to that many dice is definitely not 'better off' than a good skill. For 1, no dice pool. Also, that +4 is HUGE, even with a smartlink (which most GMs will only allow for the RangeFinder bonus) unless your target is standing perfectly still, arms spread wide open in close range (which is actually quite far with a Str 28).

Maybe we just play a bit more difficult of a game, but the 'average' TN for us is 6 to 8 before adjusting for a smartlink. That's a base TN of 10 to 12 for 'defaulting to attribute' and will garnish about 2 to 4 successes total.

Neither person moving, short range, no light modifiers, I couldn't see it being better, 28 dice with a TN of 4 (base) -2 (SmartLink), +4 (Defaulting) = 6, that's still only 4 successes.

Think I'll stick to skill which only requires about 27 karma to get (a specialization) to 12 (or 18 as an Adept), add in combat pool, and not suffer a +4 TN for defaulting, and keep that 28 strength.

Sphynx

Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (Sphynx)

Think I'll stick to skill which only requires about 27 karma to get (a specialization) to 12 (or 18 as an Adept), add in combat pool, and not suffer a +4 TN for defaulting, and keep that 28 strength.

Sphynx

I have to agree I made a troll adept he's got a 15 strength +6 dice for bows skill of bows at 7 so I have 13 dice + however much combat pool I want to throw in. Even if I don't use pool I roll 13 dice and do damage starting at 19 m thats allot even if your wearing big bad 9/8 armor which if your gm is allowing mil spec armor then I switch to a heavy weapons gun to better even the playing field.

Posted by: 6thDragon Dec 4 2003, 07:46 PM

I'd agree that the character doesn't necessarily have to have had the money and gone on a shopping spree at the start of their shadowrunning career. I had a decker with all the B/R and programming skills. I wanted to say that the character build his own deck and made all the programs himself. The GM agreed because I had all the neccessary skills. Same would go for riggers and their vehicles. However I find it hard to imagine a character building his own cyberware. Although if I remember the SR2 main rulebook had rules for build time and target numbers for that. Anyone know if SR3 published it, or would the rules from 2nd edition still apply?

Posted by: moosegod Dec 4 2003, 08:09 PM

By and large, I assume if SR3 didn't supersede it, SR2 rules still hold true.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 4 2003, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.)

Out of curiosity, how did you start with a Projectile Weapons skill of 7 at character creation? If you mean you have a Bows specialization at 7 and a base skill at 5, that means the highest your Improved Ability power can be is 5, too. But at least it shaves 0.5 Power Points off for something else that's cool with bows, like say Quick Draw, and still leaves you with 12 dice.

Just a minor nitpick.

Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 08:41 PM

DR. Funk your right I just looked at my guy got to remember to minus 1 point after specialization but hey the quick draw cool idea thanks