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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Spirits
Posted by: Casazil Dec 2 2003, 01:41 AM
I started to flesh out a character today and ran into a question.
I am making a magical character and was woundering is it legal to use spell points like karma?
For foci and what not.
Next I thought that spirits required karma to be bound but I find nothing on this.
Next do conjurers get the spell points that come with being an aspected magician?
Lastly if you can use spell points as karma is it also useable as karma for the costs of putting together an ally spirit?
Please remember though I am looking to get clarification on the rules as they appear in the books. This has to be a by the book character.
Thanks in advance.
Posted by: mfb Dec 2 2003, 01:45 AM
you can use spell points as karma for magic type stuff, yes, according to... MitS? i think it's MitS. yes, conjurors get the spell points. no, spirits don't cost karma unless you're binding them to a site to guard for a year; in this case, i believe it's 1 karma per force point.
Posted by: Azryl Dec 2 2003, 01:46 AM
Yes, you may spend spell points as if they were karma.
Posted by: mfb Dec 2 2003, 01:58 AM
right, but only for magic stuff--foci, spirits, yadda yadda. you can't raise your Str, or buy a few more points of Pistols.
Posted by: Catsnightmare Dec 2 2003, 02:06 AM
That depends. IIRC there is an option in the Shadowrun Companion that allows you to trade in Spell Points to Build Points at a 5 = 1 ratio. Though my SRC is on loan at the moment and not available to me to confirm.
Posted by: OurTeam Dec 2 2003, 02:29 AM
Spending initial Spell Points as if were Karma, for initiation or ally spirits, is described in Shadowrun Companion, p. 15, under "Resources". It's an optional rule -- the GM may allow it if he wishes. A GM who allows it should set their own limit on what the Spell Points may be used for, as the rule indicates the Karma may be spent for "... and so on."
Yes, the Shadowrun Companion, p. 14 "Magic", provides for buying more Spell force Points at 25,000 
per point, or trading in 5 Spell force Points for 1 Build Point.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 02:38 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| no, spirits don't cost karma unless you're binding them to a site to guard for a year; in this case, i believe it's 1 karma per force point. |
Or unless you want to have pre-summoned Spirits at chargen, in which case the cost is the same; 1 Spell Point/Force Point of Spirit.
Not worth it in my opinion.
Posted by: mfb Dec 2 2003, 05:27 AM
*snort* i wouldn't even call that an opinion. "i think i'll blow the equivalent of 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma on a force 5 spirit that i could otherwise whip up with a complex action and a headache!"
Posted by: Dende Dec 2 2003, 05:30 AM
Well 20,000 nuyen or 40 karma for something that costs A LOT and then gives you a headache, potentially only getting one or no successes...so maybe the spirit owes you no favors anyway.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 05:34 AM
Come to think of it, I believe that it's 1 Spell Point per Force plus 1 Spell Point per service owed. Even worse!
Posted by: moosegod Dec 2 2003, 05:37 AM
It's not even worth thinking about for a shaman, and hardly worth it for a mage.
Posted by: Abstruse Dec 2 2003, 10:39 AM
Doesn't matter if you're an aspected conjurer. I mean what the hell else are you going to use the spell points on other than bonding foci?
The Abstruse One
Posted by: Sphynx Dec 2 2003, 10:52 AM
Level of Initiation and Invoking would be good, though I think you discard bonding foci too quickly, that's just as good and either are a thousand+ times better than on a spirit at char-gen (that you could just as easily conjure post-char-gen).
Sphynx
Posted by: Saintgrimm Dec 2 2003, 05:56 PM
What page is Invoking on? I am assuming it is in MiTS. I couldn't seem to find it.
Posted by: OurTeam Dec 2 2003, 06:10 PM
The Table of Contents and Index both say Invoking is MitS p. 75.
Posted by: Saintgrimm Dec 2 2003, 08:08 PM
Imagine me dumb... oh wait, that's not a stretch. LOL
Thanks.
Posted by: OurTeam Dec 2 2003, 08:54 PM
Yeah, Saintgrimm. Since I know I look pretty dumb sometimes too, I know how you feel.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 2 2003, 08:57 PM
As several other people have said already, buying spirits at acharacter creation is somewhat pointless (unless you are a conjurer). And yes, conjurers do get 35 spell points to bind spirits/foci with.
Also: from your statement that the character has to be by the book, it should probably be pointed-out that it says nowhere in the book that you can initiate at character creation. Some GM's allow it anyway though, you'd be best asking your GM about that.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 2 2003, 10:34 PM
Ok for those with the question yes I'm making a conjurer.
First let me say thanks to all for your help.
Second it seems that there is a karma cost for starting with spirits can someone give the book & page where this is found please.
Now as to optional rules I can not use them as this character is being made in referance to being playable in Shadowrun Missions at conventions. so while allowed to goto other books for info on gear magic and so on I have to stick to the basic rules. but thanks for the suggestions I may use some of them in other games if allowed or may allow them in my games.
Lastly I have found nothing that says you can't start with an ally is this true? I mean 35 spell points makes for a nice level 4-6 ally to start the game with. (any views on this bitrunner? For those who don't know bitrunner is the main GM for my area as far as Missions go.) So the question is start with an ally or go with pre conjured spirits?
Posted by: Fortune Dec 2 2003, 11:09 PM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| So the question is start with an ally or go with pre conjured spirits? |
Or start with a bonded Spirit Focus or two.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 2 2003, 11:31 PM
There are a number of views on wether or not it's possible to start the game with an ally. On the positive side: For one they are spirits, and you can bond spirits using starting spell points. Also spell points are kindof like karma, and some people just let you use it as such for anything but buying attributes and skills)
On the down side: Using the standard rules to buy an ally spirit would cost an infinite amount of spell points (1 per service on something that owes you an infinite number of services. The karma you spend creating ally spirits is not used to bond them but to create them.
I'd personally advise you to reconsider the choice of going conjuerer, not being able to cast spells is a bitch. Also: As ally spirits get your sorcery skill to start-off with (and a spell from your spell list): If you don't have the sorcery skill and any spells you'll be missing-out on a fair bit of the ally's power.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 2 2003, 11:35 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Or start with a bonded Spirit Focus or two. |
Problem with that is I was warned already about focus addiction. so I don't wanna take the chance. Why because I am out to be a balanced conjurer so to me that means being equal to each element so I would need 4 foci and while expensive any thing over a 2 foci is gonna push the addiction limit so.....
Posted by: Lilt Dec 2 2003, 11:46 PM
Heh. You'd probably be better taking a power focus (both karma and cash wise) rather than a set of low-force spirit foci.
Also: Is your conjurer a hermetic, yes? Power foci are great in that case as they let you summon more powerful spirits without needing to worry about physical drain. And if you only use power foci then focus addiction is 1260k and 60 karma away. Not something your character would be likely to encounter. Make sure you take the talismongering knowledge skill too as then you can make ritual materials more cheaply.
If I was to go the conjurer way I'd probably be sure to get a force 6 power focus (and maybe another force 2 one for good measure).
[edit] You may want to re-read the focus addiction rules. You could quite happily own a force 12 focus but never use it, or a group of force 3 foci but only use one of them at a time, and never worry about focus addiction. Focus addiction is based on the number of foci you have active at the time, not the number you own, or even carry.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 3 2003, 12:07 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) | ||
Problem with that is I was warned already about focus addiction. so I don't wanna take the chance. Why because I am out to be a balanced conjurer so to me that means being equal to each element so I would need 4 foci and while expensive any thing over a 2 foci is gonna push the addiction limit so..... |
Unless you plan on having all of them active at one time (why???), Focus Addiction isn't something you really need to worry about.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 3 2003, 01:42 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Unless you plan on having all of them active at one time (why???), Focus Addiction isn't something you really need to worry about. |
Awe come on I'll stand in the middle of 4 circles and try to summon 1 elemental of each element simultaneously it ought to be fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH the drain it hurts!
Posted by: mfb Dec 3 2003, 02:39 AM
shamanic conjurors are badass. you people don't understand the true power of the dark side.
EOTLF, get T:Awakened Lands. Channelling is teh bom. the drain sucks, sure, but you don't have to worry about that until you've finished salting the earth that covers the mutilated corpses of your enemies.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 3 2003, 03:59 AM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| EOTLF, get T:Awakened Lands. |
Not allowed to buy anything right now Christmas is coming don't cha know.
Yea me I know I'm getting at least 4 books the local game store had a sale buy one get one free on everything in the store.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 12:11 PM
Shamanic conjurors are pretty badass... they do need invoking to work well though. An insanely high charisma (8, if not 10) also lets you summon higher force spirits without taking drain.
A balanced shamanic conjuror would be even better advised to buy power foci (over spirit foci) as there are 14 types of nature spirits. (a starting character couldn't even buy & bond 14 force 1 spirit foci, let-alone summon 14 spirits before the pools all refresh).
Channeling is a power that has a nasty drawback (well: spirit's force(D) drain) but makes your character more powerful while you're using it (you can use the spirit's powers indefinitely and you add the spirit's force to your physical attributes). You get immunity to normal weapons at the spirit's force too if it's a great-form spirit.
A character with charisma 12, channeling, a force 6 great-form storm spirit, and a trauma dampener could lay-waste to an army in about 6-12 seconds.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 3 2003, 07:44 PM
Ok here is what I came up with:
A-Resources-Bought some clothes & armor nothing to big 4/2 coat. bought some lifestyles 1 high for 2 years (where I live) modified basement with 40k 10k per area to be set up for each element, 3 middle for 1 year (meet locations), 5 low for 1 year (safehouses) stocked all but high with 1100 in food (non-perishable). A level 10 conjuring library, ally conjuring materials level 4, elemental summoning materials level 4 x 16. a couple of cred sticks (helps to have an ID or three to fall back on. A pred. 3, some clips, ammo, & con. holster. A vehicle gmc bulldog security.
B-Aspected
C-Race-Elf
D-Attributes-B 1, Q 2, S 1, C 8, I 6, W 6, E 6, M 6. Crappy physicals but easy to raise. Maxed cha. as long as i stay to 4 or less on spirits it's only a light drain pass or fail I'm still awake and have control.
E-Skills-Conjuring 6 Summoning 7, Stealth 6, Etiquette 4, Pistols 3 heavy 4, Negotiations 4, Cooking 4.
Starting with 8 elementals 2 per element
So there you go what do you think please be gentle 
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 07:46 PM
Gentile? You a jew? 
Just kidding.
Can't you only bind a number of spirits= to your charisma?
Posted by: Casazil Dec 3 2003, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| Gentile? You a jew? Just kidding. Can't you only bind a number of spirits= to your charisma? |
Ok fixed the genitals oops gentile dam gentle yeah thats it !!!!!!!!!
And yes spirits = charisma mine is 8 thus 8 spirits
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 08:00 PM
Sorry, forgot the elfness.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 10:23 PM
Hmm. It strikes me that your character is planning for the future a bit too much... 2 years pre-bought for a lifestyle? That's a long time. I don't think I've ever seen someone take a high lifestyle that long. 240K of starting cash has so many more useful applications. Most characters prefer to pay for their lifestyles a coupple of months at a time as they never know when lonestar/some corp-hired team is going to come knocking on their door.
Also: technically the rating 10 library is beyond what is available to starting characters (rating 6).
Now: Does the character have the talismongering skill and a kit to use it with? With that you could easily quarter the cost of creating ritual materials for summoning elementals (given only a little downtime). You can also give the talismongering skill to your ally (when you make one) so it can make the materials as you do runs.
I also strongly advise you to invest in a few force-worth of power foci. Right now your character can summon piddly little spirits (force 4 being trivial) quite easily but if you ever try to summon even a force 7 spirit you'll probably take moderate physical drain.
"But I can get far more services from a force 4 spirit" you respond? Consider then the fact that a force 4 elemental is good for some tasks, but vulnerable to almost any heavy pistol on the street. Enemy mages, also, would find it a sinch to take-out by banishing or with a single mannaball or stunball. A force 4 elemental is also fairly weak in attack, rolling 4-9 dice including pool. An air elemental's noxious breath power would probably do a moderate or light wound.
Now consider a force 10 elemental. With a bit of talismongering you can take the cost down to around 2.5k (depending on what your GM lets you use as the base materials). Rolling 13 dice (7 skill+6 focus) it is reasonable to expect a success at TN 10. A force 10 elemental may be a fairly one-shot deal (unless you get lucky) but it is also a completely unstoppable killing machine. Not even assault cannons, anti-tank weapons, or even light railguns can stop it. Mages attempting to attack it had better be prepared to hit TN 10 mor times than the spirit hits their spell rating in a resistance test too. Lastly: they can roll anything from 16 to 21 dice in melee combat... Only adepts can hope to match that. The noxious breath power is almost definately going to do serious damage. Only a character with willpower or body at around 24 could expect to stage it to even moderate
Now I'm not saying that you'd want to use this kind of power every day, but it seems a good idea to leave it as an option for your character. It also takes a long time to amass the karma and cash to buy & bond a power focus in game, and you'll be wanting to use those resources to buy materials, initiate, and summon an ally too.
Sorry. I do tend to rant.
[edit]Oh yes, and a force 6 power focus almost doubbles the number of successes you can expect from your 'piddly' force 2 elementals. I made a coupple of typo corrections with edits too.[/edit]
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 10:29 PM
This is why trolls make great summoners. Their massive body just shunts the problems away!
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 10:30 PM
Umm... What do you mean? Trolls make terrible conjurors.
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 10:33 PM
You summon up spirits beyond your charisma, accept the physical drain and just magic it way with your fistfuls of dice.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 10:39 PM
Physical drain is still resisted with charisma though.
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 10:42 PM
It is?
Oh, drek.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 10:44 PM
No worries. I thought that too at one point. It was during a discussion I had with my local game store owner that he set me right.
Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 10:53 PM
Not that I doubt you, but you have a page ref for this?
I wanna know if I'm doing anything else wrong.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 11:14 PM
It's not truly stated explicitly, but under Drain on page 162, SR3 it states that conjuring drain is resisted with charisma. It also describes how in some cases drain can do physical damage. The key is that it's still conjuring drain, so you still resist it with charisma even though it does physical damage rather than stun.
Also, at the top of page 188 after conjuring drain (wraps over page from 187), it says to "Use Charisma dice" with no mention of body anywhere.
It also makes more sense this way, and it's (AFAIK) the canon oppinion. (I don't mean to dictate canon though, correct me if you disagree and back me up if you do)
Posted by: moosegod Dec 4 2003, 12:44 AM
But you still resist over-powered spells with body, right?
eg. Force 8 with magic 6.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 01:08 AM
OK here's a conjurer knocked-up to my personal specification He may be slightly different from your one as you seem to be putting great import on balancing the elements exactly.
Resources A: 1,000,000
Rating 6 power focus
5 spell points
Rating 6 Conjuring Library
Rating 6 Hermetic Circle
Talismongering kit (10K)
Lifestyle designed using the Sprawl survival guide (middle with luxury space luxury security, and a Manaline (GM willing)) 10855 /month, paid for 2 months.
Bolt-hole Low lifestyle (2 months)
GMC Bulldog Sec.
Browning Ultra Power + Ammo +holster (~1K)
Clothing & armour (~3.5k including FFBA, everyone needs FFBA 
)
A coupple of cred stick with liscences for stuff I have.
60k left to buy some ritual materials, some raw enchanting materials, and a coupple of contacts.
B: Magic (Conjuror)
41 Spell points
30 Bonding power focus
10 Force 6 Fire elemental oweing 2 services.
(Just Re-read the rules- 2 SPELL POINTS PER SERVICE? WTF?)
C: Race: Elf
D: attributes
B: 1
Q: 2
S: 1
C: 8
I: 6
W: 6
(EWW: This character would die if you sneezed at it. Remember that your choice to buy attributes up later will slow your character down when initiating. Wearing armour with a ballistic rating more than 2 points higher than your quickness will also lower your combat pool. Perhaps consider lowering intelligence which isn't that important for conjurers?)
E: Skills
Conjuring(summoning) 5(7)
Stealth 3 (costs 4 points)
Pistols(Browning UP) 1(3)
Ettiquette(Corp) 6
Negotiations 6
Car 3
(looking at your skill list it looks like you didn't apply the rule that you need to pay doubble for skills over the attribute. That stealth 6 would cost a whopping 10 skill points. I went for more of an auxiluary role as a face with this one... If you've got the charisma then why not use it?).
Hope that was helpful. I have to say that I'd rather not have started with any spirits bound as they just cost too dammn much. I assume that you were talking about buying 8 force 4 spirits with 1 service each? That's not really that good an idea as after you use the one service it vanishes costing you 6 spell points.
If you really want 4 those four different types of spirits at chargen then I'd suggest 4 force 6es with 3 services each (48 spell points) as then you have 12 services from force 6 spirits rather than 8 from force 4 spirits.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 01:12 AM
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| But you still resist over-powered spells with body, right? eg. Force 8 with magic 6. |
Well... Using exactly the same argument (but quoting page 180 instead of 187/188) it says that it's resisted like a damage resistance test using willpower. It still says nothing about using body dice. I'm a little aprehencive of declaring something as canon myself without anyone backing me up on it but I'm pretty sure it is canon.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 02:57 AM
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| I assume that you were talking about buying 8 force 4 spirits with 1 service each? |
Um following the rules under conjuring under summoning elementals (p.186 sr3 corrected 12th printing the latest printing) it says that the numbers of success rolled in the summon test determines the number of services owed.
This said none of my spirits owe less than 4 services.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 03:04 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) | ||
Um following the rules under conjuring under summoning elementals (p.186 sr3 corrected 12th printing the latest printing) it says that the numbers of success rolled in the summon test determines the number of services owed. This said none of my spirits owe less than 4 services. |
Yes, but you can't make rolls before the game actually starts (ie. during chargen), or else all the Deckers would make their own decks for next to nothing. There is a cost factor for the number of services available from a Spirit at chargen. I believe that it is 1 Spell Point/service, on top of the cost of the Spirit itself.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 03:11 AM
Now however I was inspired to make some changes as follows:
High life 12 months instead of 24 fewer credsticks less clothing reduced the conjuring library to 6 and a few other things.
Burned a magic point got level 4 muscle aug./toner stats now read:
B-3
Q-6
S-5
C-8
I-5
W-5
E-6
M-5
Bio-3.2/2=1.6 round down as per the errata -1 to magic
have an excess of 149,250 in resources to work with.
Question why use a browning that does 9m w/ a 10© instead of the pred. I chose that does 9m w/ a 15© more shots between reloads?
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 03:13 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| on top of the cost of the Spirit itself. |
ok so how much does a spirit cost in spell points and what book & page is this stated on?
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 03:14 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Yes, but you can't make rolls before the game actually starts (ie. during chargen), or else all the Deckers would make their own decks for next to nothing. There is a cost factor for the number of services available from a Spirit at chargen. I believe that it is 1 Spell Point/service, on top of the cost of the Spirit itself. |
That's what I thought it was, but it turns-out it's 2 points per service. Which is an insane amount.
E.O.T.L.F.: trust me: Karma is like gold for magic users. Binding a good focus at character creation for what would otherwise cost 30 (or so) karma is a godsend and the chance should not be squandered for the sake of a few measly spirits at character generation. Once the game starts you can spend 4 hours summoning a force 4 spirit (getting possibly 6 or more services if you do get a good power focus) before summoning big guns either during legwork or between other runs.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 03:18 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F. @ Dec 4 2003, 03:13 AM) |
| ok so how much does a spirit cost in spell points and what book & page is this stated on? (useful if you don't have a smartlink) |
3rd paragrapg of P55, wrapped round from full magicians.
I chose the browning as it was more concealable and has a built-in laser sight.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 03:19 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| ok so how much does a spirit cost in spell points and what book & page is this stated on? |
Can't give you the page right now (but it's in the chargen section). The cost for pre-summoned Spirits at chargen is 1 Spell Point per point of Force plus two Spell Points per service owed. Each of your Force 4 Elementals with 4 services would cost 12 Spell Points.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 03:45 AM
Amazeing that this rule is not in any way refered to in the sections about spirits in either 3rd or mits it would be nice to have something point to this rule in the spirits sections seeing as the changes are minimal to second i never really read the cargen section just glanced over it. Which it also states that you can't start with more than 6 spirits.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 03:47 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| Now however I was inspired to make some changes as follows: High life 12 months instead of 24 fewer credsticks less clothing reduced the conjuring library to 6 and a few other things. Burned a magic point got level 4 muscle aug./toner stats now read: [stats] have an excess of 149,250 in resources to work with. Question why use a browning that does 9m w/ a 10© instead of the pred. I chose that does 9m w/ a 15© more shots between reloads? |
Well: Your character doesn't need strength. Unless you want to hit something or carry something heavy yourself I'd just get a low force (force 3 or so?) elemental to do it if it really matters. Also: the rounding down is done to the magic rating, not the 1/2ed bio index (by the example on their site)
You don't need the muscle aug anyway, a good body and quickness are the only musts. It might be a good idea to consider the dermal sheath-1 cyberware that adds two body and 1 impact armor for 24k (and .7 essence) from P28, M&M.
I'd suggest buying an alphaware dermal sheath and a rating two muscle toner whilst keeping your willpower at 6. Willpower isn't as important for non-spellcasters but it's still the linked attribute for the conjuring skill. You may want to consider taking some minor flaws so you could buy edges like bonus attribute point or something.
If you are going to reduce your magic rating with cyber/bioware then it becomes even more important to buy a power focus of some form to make-up for the loss. You could also geas the loss but then you'd be wanting to spend one of your initiations removing the geas, which I suppose is OK as a level 1 initiate can't do all that much (perhaps summon a force 4-5 great form spirit at a stretch).
Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 03:57 AM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| Amazeing that this rule is not in any way refered to in the sections about spirits in either 3rd or mits it would be nice to have something point to this rule in the spirits sections seeing as the changes are minimal to second i never really read the cargen section just glanced over it. Which it also states that you can't start with more than 6 spirits. |
Why should it be in the Spirit section of anywhere when it specifically deals with character generation? The rules for starting Availability are not in the Gear section, even though they apply to gear, and the rule for the starting number of Spell Points for magicians is not in the Magic section. All of these are in the section on Character Generation because that is where they belong.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 04:16 AM
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Also: the rounding down is done to the magic rating, not the 1/2ed bio index (by the example on their site) dermal sheath-1 cyberware Willpower isn't as important for non-spellcasters but it's still the linked attribute for the conjuring skill. You may want to consider taking some minor flaws so you could buy edges like bonus attribute point or something. If you are going to reduce your magic rating with cyber/bioware then it becomes even more important to buy a power focus of some form to make-up for the loss. |
Magic has a starting value equal to the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down. So a starting magician with Essence 5.8 and a Bio Index of 1 begins with a Magic rating of 5 (5.8 - 0.5 = 5.3, rounded down to 5). Direct copy from the sr site.
Essance 5.8
bio index 1
now as we see in the example 5.8 -0.5 not -1 = 5.3 round down. so if you say that the character has a full essance of 6 then - the 0.5 this character is at 5.5 round down you get 5.
as to cyber old school thinking cyber & magic bad bio better but still have issues with it.
next up will. you have a point so move a point from intell. to will. killed the mus. aug. 4 down to 2 added a cerebral 2.
as to any optional rules in the companion not allowed so no edges/flaws
lastly why do you think it is bad to start with less than a 6 magic in my oppion it is called role-playing rationalized as because he is a groggie he just never felt fully impowered but he's working on it be building up to initiation. Or before he was awakened he got the bio then has regreted it sence because it has limited his abilitys.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 04:18 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Why should it be in the Spirit section of anywhere when it specifically deals with character generation? The rules for starting Availability are not in the Gear section, even though they apply to gear, and the rule for the starting number of Spell Points for magicians is not in the Magic section. All of these are in the section on Character Generation because that is where they belong. |
While you speak truth there are mutipule references to see p.xx in those sections and that is what i'm saying should be in the sections reguarding spirits.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 12:29 PM
What I was talking about was your statement:
| QUOTE |
| Bio-3.2/2=1.6 round down as per the errata -1 to magic |
| QUOTE |
| So a starting magician with Essence 6 and a Bio Index of 3.2 begins with a Magic rating of 4 (6 - 1.6 = 4.4, rounded down to 4). |
By your example a character with 1.99 bio index wouldn't even lose any magic as you were rounding down with respect to magic loss (as opposed to rounding-down with respect to magic rating).
There is no real problem with starting with a lower magic rating. In-fact I take-back the comment about taking a geas being a bad idea as hermetic conjurers are never going to be bound or gagged when they conjure (IE: gesture and incantation geases are fine).
You are just completely removing the possibility of conjuring a good (force 6+) spirit. The most powerful aspect of hermetic conjurers is that they don't need to summon at the time (hence they can sleep drain off). The problem is that you can't sleep-off a physical wound like you would get from a decent force spirit.
It would also make logical sense for your character to buy a power focus to offset the loss he had previously incurred from taking bioware as it would allow him to summon more powerful spirits without risking a physical wound.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 08:01 PM
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| So a starting magician with Essence 6 and a Bio Index of 3.2 begins with a Magic rating of 4 (6 - 1.6 = 4.4, rounded down to 4). By your example a character with 1.99 bio index wouldn't even lose any magic as you were rounding down with respect to magic loss (as opposed to rounding-down with respect to magic rating). It would also make logical sense for your character to buy a power focus to offset the loss he had previously incurred from taking bioware as it would allow him to summon more powerful spirits without risking a physical wound. |
Ok lets try this broken down a little more the first part says this: (bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down. Thus a bio Index 3.2 ÷ 2 = 1.6 rounded down is 1. Which reads like this 6 - 1 = 5.
The second part you say a 1.99 bio means no magic loss. No it means bio Index 3.98 ÷ 2 = 1.99 rounded down is 1 thus 1 point of magic loss.
Now as to the taking of physical damage from conjuring on p.188 it states you only take physical if the spirits force is greater than my magic attribute so i can get a force 5 and only take stun. However if i were to summon a force 6 I only take M physical not a big deal a few hours and i'm good to go not a problem seeing as conjuring take several hours anyway this is something I have players do and other gms have had me do in advance of starting a game session. You know something i did between runs it's how i passed my down time.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 09:42 PM
Look at the example again. They round down the magic rating not the magic rating loss. Ask your GM I'm pretty sure they'd agree with me.
And healing a moderate physical wound would take you a few days, if not the base time of 10 days or more. Read page 127. And another point: magical healing cannot heal drain, so you can't ask another party member to heal you or something.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 10:42 PM
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Look at the example again. They round down the magic rating not the magic rating loss. Ask your GM I'm pretty sure they'd agree with me. |
Ok I am the GM and as I interpret the errata it clearly states you take the bio index of x and divide by 2 then you round down.
This is the sentence it has a beginning and an end hence the period which as you read it it says:
Magic has a starting value equal to the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down.
Now in math unless things have changed excessively you do the math inside the () first then figure out the remaining part of the problem. This means I take the bio index divide by 2 and get a number then I finish the formula which states round down.
So, there for as is stated (bio index 3.2 ÷ 2 = 1.6) rounded down = 1. It in no way shape or form tells you where to round down to I.E. round down to the nearest tenth of a point or round down to the nearest whole point so as I said unless math has changed I've done this right because my teachers taught me when they ask for something to be rounded off either up or down they want the nearest whole number.
Now if I am wrong about this I am sorry to say this is something that someone from Fanpro will have to tell me. because it's their rule and it is open to interpretation and as I said this is my interpretation on what is written.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 11:11 PM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| Magic has a starting value equal to the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down. |
The 'round down' clearly refers to the Magic Rating in that sentence, and not the Bio-Index.
Posted by: Bölverk Dec 4 2003, 11:19 PM
| QUOTE (E.O.T.L.F.) |
| This is the sentence it has a beginning and an end hence the period which as you read it it says: Magic has a starting value equal to the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down. |
Perhaps you should look at that as "Magic has a starting value equal to [the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2)], rounded down." rather than "the character's Essence minus [(Bio Index ÷ 2), rounded down.]" as you seem to be doing. This would match the example given more closely, in my reading of the matter.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 4 2003, 11:40 PM
| QUOTE (Bölverk) |
| [the character's Essence minus (Bio Index ÷ 2)], rounded down." |
Um ok essance 6 - 0 = 6 then round down now do the math in ( ) 3.2 ÷ 2 = 1.6 then round down now finish the equasion 6 - 1 = 5. The rounding down happens after each step
I don't get what is so hard to see here?
Posted by: Fortune Dec 4 2003, 11:47 PM
Why is it that you are the only one to see it that way?
Posted by: Rattler Dec 4 2003, 11:47 PM
| QUOTE |
| (5.8 - 0.5 = 5.3, rounded down to 5). |
That is your own quote...cool, huh? Notice how in the example, it is the sum that is rounded, after all calculations have been made. Not the bio-index, which is .5 in the given model - that is why .5 is still .5 and not 0 in the equation.
| QUOTE |
| so as I said unless math has changed I've done this right |
No, you haven't.
| QUOTE |
| I don't get what is so hard to see here? |
I don't know. I'm still waiting for you to tell me.
Posted by: Casazil Dec 5 2003, 12:31 AM
Ok I see things from my perspective that is all there is to it and as the developers say i'm allow to use the rules as I see them.
However, I have officially been handed my walking papers via Fanpro and Rob Boyle so you guys are right. (never too big to admit I'm wrong)
Although when running my own games i'll have to give serious thought to going with my way.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 5 2003, 12:40 AM
So, in your games, as long as a character stays below 2 points of Bio-Index (prior to it being halved), they would never lose any Magic. Do you think that's reasonable?
Posted by: Casazil Dec 5 2003, 12:59 AM
So it would seem like I said something for me to think about. see with me I read bioware is always treated as natural in the book and your own immune system treats is as natural so I see no reason for it to have any effect on magic.
Posted by: Lilt Dec 5 2003, 01:20 AM
Not quite. Having bioware installed lowers your body's immune system for a start (less body to resist desieses&toxins) so there is obviously something screwed-up with bioware. Isn't the fact that your magic rating is only reduced by 1/2 bio index (rather than full esselce) enough?
Posted by: Zazen Dec 5 2003, 06:48 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Why is it that you are the only one to see it that way? |
I saw it that way too when I started to read the errata.
| QUOTE |
| Magic is reduced by the character's Bio Index divided by 2 (round down). |
Immediately I thought "What the fuck? 1.9 BI for free?" Luckily it was clarified by the next section which you guys have been quoting.
Posted by: snowRaven Dec 5 2003, 12:34 PM
Note the comma: Magic has a starting value equal to the character's Essence minus (Bio Index /2),rounded down.
If they meant round down the BioIndex, the comma would have been after 'Essence' or the rounded down would have been in the parenthesis. Their own examples clearly show that this is in fact the case. If you wanted the FanPro people to say you are wrong, well... they already have.
I do agree, however, that the last sentence in the first paragraph indicates that you round down the halved bio-index. But since every other part of the text goes against this, there is no problem 
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