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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Natural Vision after Cyberware

Posted by: Shadow Dec 3 2003, 07:16 PM

Common sense would dictate that if you are an elf, and you have your eyes replaced with cyber eyes, and no mods, then you no longer have Low Light vision. But I have failed to find a relevant reference in canon to use. I find this a lot, people have there eyes replaced, yet they still claim there natural eye benefits. Does anyone know of any canon rules that apply?

Posted by: Grey Dec 3 2003, 07:19 PM

It was in canon print back in SR2 IIRC, but I don't know about SR3. Any GM with half a brain would say they loose natural stuff if they get a cyber replacement though.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Dec 3 2003, 07:21 PM

Check the metahuman archetypes with cyberware in SR3. I think they have entries like "Cybereye (minus natural thermo vision)" for the dwarf decker, etc.

Posted by: Grey Dec 3 2003, 07:21 PM

Found it! Check out SR3, page 299.

QUOTE

If a metahuman has his or her eyes cybernetically replaced, he or she loses natural vision enhancements...

Posted by: Spookymonster Dec 3 2003, 07:46 PM

But that's for full eye replacement. There's also retinal modification (enhancing the existing meat, instead of replacing it). Granted, with retinal mods, you don't get .5 essence worth of extra eye mods for 'free' (each retinal mod impacts essence independently), but other than that, they're essentially the same.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 07:48 PM

Retinal mods are just "adjustements", so they don't eliminate natural vision enhancement.

Posted by: Grey Dec 3 2003, 07:57 PM

Right.

Now here is another question...

Can mages still see on the astral if they have their eyes replaced with cyber eyes? I was told no back in the day and never bothered to verify it. So now, whenever I make a mage character, I just buy retinal mods, rather than eyes with mods in them. I'm also pretty cure that a mage has to have Optical Mag, rather than Electric Mag in order to cast using that, right?

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 07:58 PM

The optical thingy is right.

However, since cybereyes are paid with Essence are a part of the metahuman body, they still work on the Astral.

Posted by: Grey Dec 3 2003, 08:00 PM

So as long as you get Optical Mag put into the cybereye, you're ok? Sweet, I'll keep that in mind from now on.

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 08:01 PM

Oh no, what sort of a monster have I created?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 08:15 PM

No, the mage can still have electronic magnification I'm pretty sure, because it's paid for with Essence and thus still a part of the mage's body.

~J

Posted by: Grey Dec 3 2003, 08:18 PM

Boy, today was a good day to bring my book to work with me.

SR3, page 300, under Vision Magnification

QUOTE

...come in electronic and optical version (the latter are necessary for magicians with cybereyes).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 3 2003, 08:54 PM

Fair enough then.
I should start bringing my book around with me

~J

Quibble: but what about magicians without cybereyes, just retinal mods? /quibble

Posted by: moosegod Dec 3 2003, 08:57 PM

I'd say optical only.

I mean, why would it be different?

Posted by: Cochise Dec 3 2003, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (Grey)

Boy, today was a good day to bring my book to work with me.

SR3, page 300, under Vision Magnification

QUOTE

...come in electronic and optical version (the latter are necessary for magicians with cybereyes).

Which technically is a big inconsistancy within the rules of SR3.

According to the magic rules, all cybernetic vision enhencements have been paid for with Essence and thus work with magic.
Now the rules on vision magnification demand for the optical in cybereyes, although the eyes are still paid for with Essence.
Can't be be due to the 0.5 of Essence free space in eyes, because otherwise IR or other cybernetic vision enhencements within that free space wouldn't work either.
And to make this even worse: The optical version is only needed within cybereyes, but when using retinal modifictaion we're back to "paid for with Essence" ...

Side note: Astral perception is not linked to physical sight. It's a psychic sense. Even physically blind magicians can still astrally perceive ...

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Dec 3 2003, 09:55 PM

can you take ultrasound vision as a retinal mod?

Posted by: Shadow Dec 3 2003, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Cochise)

Actually no. From the beginning they have always said, mages can only cast spells on what they can physically see. Not through security cameras or any other type of electronically enhanced image. They have to use optical enhancements in order for the magic to work right. So if you just had electronic mag 3 installed it would work fine. But you would not be able to cast spells while using it. The image you got would not be "live".

Thanks for all those who applied, I just wanted to clarify it, and DSF'ers are the smartest people around!

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 3 2003, 10:12 PM

The problem is that Cybereyes themselves are "artificial". They're not physically seeing the target, they're seeing what a mechanical device senses and transmits to their brain. Thus if the "paid for with Essence" argument holds up for that, it should hold up for other forms of vision enhancement that are paid for with Essence. Such as thermographic vision, ultrasound, and even microscopic vision. Yet for some reason, vision magnification doesn't work unless it's specifically "optical," even though none of those other options have to be so.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 3 2003, 11:31 PM

Yes, it is somewhat inconsistent, but regardless it seems to imply that whatever was magically available from the original image is lost by piping it through the electronic magnification. Why there are doubble standards I don't know.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Dec 3 2003, 11:38 PM

I've just always read it to be that while the optical magnification just make the image closer, thus easier to see, the electronic magnification produces a [/I]new[I] image, and is useless to mages because it keeps them from seeing the original image. In that case you have this set.

Regular eyes, optical mag retinal mod: Sure thing, real eyes seeing a real image.
Regular eyes, electronic mag retinal mod: No dice. The eyes see a false image.
Cybereyes, optical: Yes again, the image is there, percieved with "paid for" sight.
Cybereyes, electronic: Nope. The eyes and imaging have been payed for, but the image is still not really an image.

Posted by: Hasaku Dec 3 2003, 11:40 PM

Strange that an image that is optically magnified then electronically processed and transmitted to the brain is somehow more "live" than an image that is electronic the whole way.

Posted by: Cochise Dec 4 2003, 12:14 AM

QUOTE (Luke Hardison)

Regular eyes, optical mag retinal mod: Sure thing, real eyes seeing a real image.

Paid with Essence ...

QUOTE

Regular eyes, electronic mag retinal mod: No dice. The eyes see a false image.

By the letter of the rules: Wrong, since you're talking retinal mod and not cyber(replacement)eyes. Again Paid for with Essence and not less "processed" than IR or Ultrasound (which work perfectly with spellcasting under the paid with Essence rule for cybernetic enhencements)

QUOTE

Cybereyes, optical: Yes again, the image is there, percieved with "paid for" sight.

And the cybereye itself does not process the incoming picture? Oh I see, the eye has been paid for with Essence, right?

QUOTE

Cybereyes, electronic: Nope. The eyes and imaging have been payed for, but the image is still not really an image.

O.k. This time we have a processed picture that is processed by another electonic device (the eyes). The eye has been paid for with Essence and the retinal mod itself would work under the canon rules. Very strange ...

Posted by: Grey Dec 4 2003, 01:14 AM

Cochise, while what you are saying makes since in the spirit of "paid for with essence", the book had a double standard that states you must have Optical Mag to cast spells through it. If you don't like it, house rule it, but by canon, it is clear that Electrical Mag doesn't work with spell casting.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 4 2003, 01:21 AM

But as I nitpicked, it only specifically states that magnification in cybereyes needs to be optical. Nothing is stated about retinal modifications, in which case the paid-with-essence rule takes precedence.

~J

Posted by: Grey Dec 4 2003, 01:34 AM

((duh, nevermind))

Posted by: Grey Dec 4 2003, 01:38 AM

I would still say that you are nitpicking way too much.

Posted by: Buzzed Dec 4 2003, 04:20 AM

As long as you don't magnify, you can use the eyes with electronic mag to cast spells. Only when you magnify your eye vision, the electronic magnification replaces your normal eye sight. Only while actually using the electronic mag, you lose the ability to target with spells.

With optical magnification, it is as if you had a big ass binocular lense installed, it twists to zoom in.

OPTICAL ZOOM = Bending light to focus on a smaller area which results in a closer zoom. What you are looking at is real.

ELECTRONIC ZOOM = Digital video where the inside section is cropped and enlarged to create the artificial image. Its a picture of what you are looking at as if you were looking at it for real. So of course electronic mag is useless for spell casting cause it's not real. If it did work, well heck, I could feed a trid station into my eyes and cast a spell on the quarterback while watching the Seattle Seahawks game at home. Would be a nice way to bet on the games.

The rules do not have a double standard, they make perfect sense and are logical.

Posted by: Cochise Dec 4 2003, 12:25 PM

QUOTE (Grey)

Cochise, while what you are saying makes since in the spirit of "paid for with essence", the book had a double standard that states you must have Optical Mag to cast spells through it.

*lol* You're telling me that there's a double standard there?
Interestingly enough I was one of the persons to mention that double standard in the first place

QUOTE

If you don't like it, house rule it, but by canon, it is clear that Electrical Mag doesn't work with spell casting.

I don't have the need to houserule it, since I haven't seen a significant number of mages with cyberreplacement eyes in my groups. They usually go for the retinal modification route. I'm just saying that that's a major inconsistancy ...

---

QUOTE (Buzzed)

The rules do not have a double standard, they make perfect sense and are logical.

Ah, so electronic magnification in cybereyes not working, while being perfectly o.k. as retinal modification is no double standard and does make sense?

Sorry Buzzed, but please take the time to read what has been written ...

Posted by: thunderchild Dec 4 2003, 12:41 PM

QUOTE (Grey)

I would still say that you are nitpicking way too much.

LIES, Its what we do best at Dumpshock!

Posted by: Low Profile Dec 4 2003, 12:56 PM

A note on the account of being able to see in Astral space with cyber eyes, I think it is irrelevant wether your eyes are natural or cybernetic. I don't think you need your eyes to see in Astral space, and thus mages can be blind in this world and are able to see in the Astral one... wich would make for interesting role playing, wouldn't it.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 4 2003, 12:56 PM

QUOTE (Buzzed)

The rules do not have a double standard, they make perfect sense and are logical.

The doubble standard is that an electronic image is being generated by the cybereye anyway (and whatever thermo/low-light mods you have).

For some odd reason you can cast spells using the image from cybereyes (the image somehow becoming natural as the cyberware is paid for with essence) while you can't cast spells when using another implant (the output from which is somehow not considreed natural even though it is paid for with essence).

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 4 2003, 01:10 PM

Just for the record, I think the rule is completely bogus and allow magicians to take Electronic Mag if they want to pay the extra cash to save the 0.10 Essence -- cybereyes or not. I don't allow it for scopes or anything else, however.

That said, Lilt's last comment is about the only plausible explanation for why it's not allowed. Cybereyes don't digitally modify the input, they simply record what they see then transmit it to the brain. Electronic vision magnification, however, does modify the input before transmitting it.

While it might be a valid argument, I still don't much care for it. But then again, I tend to prefer Optical Magnification anyway (magician or not) just because I think the visual effect is more stunning. I get to describe the iris and spinning around and whirling as I make extreme focal changes.

Posted by: Buzzed Dec 4 2003, 04:55 PM

You guys are missing the point. It doesn't matter weather they are digital or not, it is the fact that ONLY YOUR ORIGINAL IMAGE WILL WORK FOR SPELLS.

Electronic magnification overrides your normal sight. An artificial digital image feed has replaced your own. Your vision has been rebuilt completely and is no longer original.

With optical magnification, you are not using an artificial digital image. You are still using the original image from the eye.

As for thermal and low light, use electronic zoom and your thermal or low light image is rebuilt, no longer your original sight which is why electronic mag is not compatable with magic use.

Now for ultrasound. Ultrasound overlaps your vision. It aids by giving a wire frame model of what you are looking at to help you make out shapes in the dark. You still see that troll standing in front of you in pitch black. It's just you are not aware that part of that black void is actually a troll until you see the wire frame overlapping it. Ultrasound merely points out the un-obvious for you.

Posted by: Buzzed Dec 4 2003, 05:10 PM

QUOTE (Cochise @ Dec 4 2003, 08:25 AM)

QUOTE (Buzzed)

The rules do not have a double standard, they make perfect sense and are logical.

If you practice what you preach, you will see that I carefully read everything. Nowhere did I say that any use of electronic mag in any case would work for spell casting.

Posted by: Cochise Dec 4 2003, 05:19 PM

QUOTE (Buzzed)

So does IR or US as retinal modification or cybereye modification ...

QUOTE

With optical magnification, you are not using an artificial digital image. You are still using the original image from the eye.

And the picture the cybereye produces isn't artifical?

QUOTE

As for thermal and low light, use electronic zoom and your thermal or low light image is rebuilt, no longer your original sight which is why electronic mag is not compatable with magic use.

Yet, by the rules it's perfectly o.k. when having electronic vision magnification as retinal mod ...

QUOTE

Now for ultrasound. Ultrasound overlaps your vision. It aids by giving a wire frame model of what you are looking at to help you make out shapes in the dark. You still see that troll standing in front of you in pitch black. It's just you are not aware that part of that black void is actually a troll until you see the wire frame overlapping it. Ultrasound merely points out the un-obvious for you.

Really? US will work in total darkness (where your normal visionis non-existant) and you're still able to cast with that +4 TN modifier against any target in (US)-"Sight", since US is a cybernetic vision enhencement. Oh and it's most definitely a "processed" image, wouldn't you agree?

QUOTE

If you practice what you preach, you will see that I carefully read everything. Nowhere did I say that any use of electronic mag in any case would work for spell casting.

Yes, you said that electronic mag doesn't work in any case. Unfortunately that's not true, since only cyber(replacement)eyes do require optical mag. For retinal mod it's perfectly o.k. with the "paid for with essence" rule that explicitly states that technologicallly processed pictures due to cybernetic enhancements do work, since they have been paid for with Essence ...
So you are "guilty" of not reading what has been written, since you missed that point and said that there is no double standard. Yet this double standard does exist ...

Posted by: Buzzed Dec 4 2003, 05:35 PM

Oops. I stand corrected, I did miss that. Me bad. Hopefully they will correct this in a reprint.

I will house rule that electronic mag will not work with spells in all cases.

INTERRESTING NOTE: The book did not say mages can use ectronic mag in meat eyes for spells either.

FYI: I also found a rule that states ultrasound will not allow spell targeting when the target can not be seen using other forms of sight. So US does not help nor does it hurt spell casting.

Posted by: Cochise Dec 4 2003, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (Buzzed @ Dec 4 2003, 07:35 PM)

FYI: I also found a rule that states ultrasound will not allow spell targeting when the target can not be seen using other forms of sight. So US does not help nor does it hurt spell casting.

where ?

And even if that rule exists, UV will help spell casting, since it reduces visibilty modifiers.
So it might not work when casting in total darkness, but it will reduce the TN mod when casting under partial or minmal light conditions ...

Posted by: Buzzed Dec 4 2003, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (Cochise @ Dec 4 2003, 01:44 PM)

QUOTE (Buzzed @ Dec 4 2003, 07:35 PM)

FYI: I also found a rule that states ultrasound will not allow spell targeting when the target can not be seen using other forms of sight. So US does not help nor does it hurt spell casting.

where ?

As I read it again, I see that the rule pertains to targets affected by invisibility. So it looks like Ultrasound will still work for spell casting vs. targets unseen in the dark, +4 Mod.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 4 2003, 07:06 PM

QUOTE (Buzzed)

INTERRESTING NOTE: The book did not say mages can use ectronic mag in meat eyes for spells either.

The book also doesn't say that Mages can eat fish on Tuesdays, or go to the bathroom in months that have the letter R in them.
As is so often said, there is an infinite number of things the book doesn't say. In this case, the book doesn't specifically state cases in a way that the absence of this case would imply significance.

~J

Posted by: Grey Dec 4 2003, 07:27 PM

Lets just email Fanpro and ask them for a canon responce.