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Posted by: Synner667 Apr 10 2008, 09:24 PM

Hi,

Just back from a few days away, and re-reading my SR v4 rulebook..
..Specifically [for the moment] about wireless networks [cross-pollinating the SR info with CyberGeneration info, and some other stuff].


Rereading the stuff about Commlinks, I'm not sure that I see everyone having one..

Base cost is 300Â¥ [CMT Clip] to actually interact with the world, added is the cost of a display [Â¥25, Image Link sunglasses] to be able to usefully see the interactive world, and gloves to be able to press virtual buttons [Â¥250, AR Gloves]..
..So about ¥575 to be able to interact with the virtual world.

The example in the rulebook must be someone with implanted cameras and some sort of realtime optical recognition software, else how would their system be able to put text boxes in the right places [I wonder what the costs are] ??


I earn about £25k/year [about $50k, I think], but I'm not sure I'd want to spend nearly £600 for a portable computer too often.

For many people, not in reasonably wellpaid jobs, would there be a big uptake on them ??
I can't imagine droves of low income people buying them, when they might struggle for rent or food or day-to-day things.


How much coverage would there really be, to cater for the general population [obviously, wealthy people would have nicely infrastructured areas to support wireless networks] ??
Knowing how tech companies are in the realworld, I'm not sure I can see the 2070 ones having installed a huge number of wireless hotspots within 6 years - especially when there were so many repercussions from the 2064 Matrix Crash.


In fact, the Commlink doesn't appear to be anything more than a very powerful wireless smartphone or ultraportable computer [circa a little ahead of now]. with some sophisticated spatial software and the associated hardware.
I don't want to seem a killjoy, but are widespread wireless networking and powerful portable computers really so amazing [the current tech world expect have both of those within the next 10 years] ??

Or is it the interactivity that's the wonderful thing ??
Tho, considering brain-to-machine interfaces will have been around in SR for a while now, I can't see it as being anything amazing.


Do we know anything about the infrastructure for the wireless networks ??

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 10 2008, 10:02 PM

I believe it's mentioned that the majority of people experience AR through SimSense overwriting portions of their field of experience. It is also implied, I believe, that your vison-enhancement capable equipment does include a set of cameras and your wireless equipment is capable of identifying relative locations of other devices via radio triangulation.

The idea behind the wireless matrix is not an access point architecture, but a large scale ad-hoc network that's mostly possible due to the sheer density of wireless transmitters in 2070. Every wireless capable device can route your packets, so your infrastructure is partially self-constructing as you get additional uptake and you only need to deploy some relays in places to guarantee some limited level of connectivity. You can use protocol translation at the outer limits to connect your surviving old networks to the newer stuff with a minimum of effort. You can get some useful optimisations by clever use of fibre alongside your wireless connections as well.

The commlink is so massively multi-purpose - y'know, because it's a damn computer - that they'll get marketed as an equivalent for any piece of current mobile computing technology (as well as some mobile devices we don't currently have) with the functions of every other neat little device. This would be similar to how the functionality of mobile phones is rapidly expanding to encompass any other device that may be popular.

Posted by: Professeur Apr 10 2008, 10:15 PM

Also, the Commlink isn't just some portable computer. It's your ONLY computer, and the only one you'll ever need (except if you change your comm... or if something better comes along the way). It's also your cellphone, and your general multi-purpose electronic/informatic device (Trid/Mp3 player, PDA, whatever). Also, I think the satellite link costs something like 150Y, so it wouldn't really be that expensive to get coverage EVERYWHERE.

Hope I could answer some of your questions.

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 10 2008, 10:18 PM

Huh, I figured it was triangulating the signal or using GPS-type data sent as part of the signal.


Probably it would be as hard to get a job without a commlink as it is now to get one without a phone. Or an address. Someone really poor would maybe own a used low-end commlink, much like you can get used low-end cellphones on craigslist or eBay. Image link and the virtual keyboard and such are nice but optional, as you can use the crappy screen and roll-out(!) keyboard on the commlink (think of something like the Sidekick -- in 2070, that'll be like having a rotary-dial phone). Beyond ghetto, it's Barrens.

The main idea of the Wireless Matrix Initiative was probably establishing a standard. Beyond that, various devices communicate with each other and relay other communications (without "reading" them), so each wireless-enabled device is, in a sense, a hotspot. Or a small warmspot, anyway.

In some sense, though, that's one of the less believable elements of the setting.

Posted by: nathanross Apr 10 2008, 10:27 PM

I also do not like the "everyone has a commlink" like RAW fluff would have it. I have yet to come up with official houserules on the subject, but I generally treat it as such (by rating):

1-2, Cellphones
3-4, Mobile Computers
5-6, Cyberdecks

Now the size is not the same. Rating 1-2 can be tiny; so small in fact that they can only be accessed wirelessly. Of course you can get them bigger (with a numerpad) but for most of the clubgoing set, this way it doesn't get in the way when they want to grind.

Rating 3-4 is also incredibly small, but needs to be at least business card in area, and half an inch in depth. Rating 5-6 is only a little bit bigger than this, and usually contains an internal sim module and datajack port (I dont buy that trodes are equivalent to datajacks).

As for how VR/AR looks, I treat it like Astral Space. The density of public nodes (those that replaced the Seattle Grid) allow perfect triangulation between nodes, and so when you dive into VR, you appear as your persona floating in virtual space. However, unlike astral, what is real in this space is the sculpting of the system and the nodes that are currently accessing it. That means that as you walk down a virtual street in downtown, you see tons of nodes walking around (commlinks). I am not sure how they deal with intercity matrix (I think the old fiber optic trunks are still more efficient than satellites or daisy chaining wireless emitters) in terms of sculpting. I think it could either be handled as a SAN or tunnel highway that you have to travel through from some centralized hub.

I still think of things in terms of Grid hierarchy, but instead of length = time, length = length in real life. Also, Private networks are limited to buildings usually by Matrix blocking paint (Wifi is not a term in my SR, and whoever put that in the book should be taken out back and shot), and connected to other corporate buildings via conventional Fiber optics or encrypted directional wireless. Though, I guess you still need SANs and Chokepoints that connect the PLTG to the LTG so employees can telecommute.

I also have not yet figured out how to scale hosts appropriately, since the SR4 rules are terrible with modeling high end corporate hosts and data havens.

Posted by: fatal2ty Apr 10 2008, 11:02 PM

The way I view a Commlink is an amalgamation of your Cell phone, Wallet, MP3 Player, and a Personal Computer.

I don't know anybody that doesn't have a wallet of some kind, I can maybe think of 1 person that doesn't have a cell phone and most people i know have an MP3 player at least. I'm not poor, but I wouldn't call myself upper class either.

Nowadays, most people wouldn't leave the house without a Cell Phone and their Wallet, The wallet has your drivers license, paper money, Bank Card, Credit Card, memberships, receipts, etc. Your Cell phone keeps you connected to everyone you know. In SR, they just merged the 2 and added extra features. Not everyone will have a brand new off the shelf Commlink, but it isn't hard to get a used phone nowadays, i would assume a commlink would be even easier to get. Theres probably a decent shape one sitting in a pawn shop for 5, after that you just get a friend with the right contacts to hook you up with a pirate connecton to the matrix and your set.

Another thing i just thought of, You can get a Cell Phone for free if you sign a contract for 2-3 years with a provider, I could see that still happening in 2070, you would pay your Matrix Provider a monthly fee and have unlimited Matrix usage, they would give you a commlink for free, low end, but still a commlink.

Now, as for the average Street Bum, they don't have a SIN, they don't have anything, no, just like now they don't have Cell Phones and their Wallet might have a stick of gum in it, they wouldn't have a Commlink in SR, they wouldn't care too much either, as long as they could get some food, some shelter and some Alchohol to ease the pain they're content

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 10 2008, 11:15 PM

Just curious, why do you not like the term "WiFi"? Is it the InterCaps, or the fact that it's a sort of trade name, or something else?

As for yer typical Bum, remember that many of them weren't always living on the street, and that a fair number of these guys will be BTL/hot-sim/VR addicts of some kind, so they won't be so willing to hock their commlinks to buy booze, any more than a junkie would sell his works.

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 11 2008, 01:16 AM

You know, the basis for 4th Edition Matrix has always made me scratch my head about Matrix services. Why are people paying for "service" that they're fundamentally grabbing off of Joe Baggadoughnuts' node? An E-mail account? You can get that for free NOW, so I don't know why you'd pay for it in the techno-fetishist future of 2070..

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 11 2008, 01:24 AM

It costs less than that. A trode net is 50 nuyen and you are going to use one of those. So your example is down to about 150 quid, which isn't very much at all really, I imagine some people pay more for phones (the iphone!!) today.

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 11 2008, 03:01 AM

Actually by the book (p 206) there is a bunch of Matrix infrastructure, which is I suppose is the way a megacorporation (or two) would organize it. I'm not sure why I envisioned the Matrix as the total of billions of ad-hoc network interactions, other than that it would make sense that way. Still, you'd need to connect beyond 50 meters or whatever, across oceans and stuff.

Posted by: ccelizic Apr 11 2008, 06:59 AM

the wireless matrix is kinda scary in a "big brother is watching you" sort of way too. That commlink is broadcasting your commcode provided by you provider. Now the current rules give no prices for service, but they make a passing mention to avaliabliity of "black commcodes" that don't give your information away. Otherwise you can presume your commcode is linked to your SIN presuming you have one. As a GM I'd inclined to say that a a black commcode is part of a fake ID package, at least until unwired comes out. Most savvy shadowrunnres however will run in hidden mode to maintain a low wireless profile and so they don't compromise their identity. A good hacker can spoof a fake commcode too which helps keeps his real commcode from being compromised legally. Being in a nice neighborhood while running hidden means you attract unwanted legal attention

Just glancing into some of the shadowrun missions there's a few situations that come up where the PC's can get in a compromising situation if they don't have a commlink in active mode. Since it's not easy to detect hidden a hidden commlink, I suspect drones that patrol for hidden nodes instead just look for people walking around that lack an active commlink. This can make life difficult for anyone who lacks a commlink. It would also make life difficult for any havenot vagarants in the area, gives the law enforcement to shuffle'em outta the nice areas.

The barrens are noted for having patchy matrix connections at best. And since you need some sort of ID to log on, you either need some sort of hacking skill to spoof one, or be able to shell out for a fake. The commlink becomes another fence between the haves and havenots. It also becomes a way for the powers that be to discretely keep tabs on all your activities at all times. So sure, in those flashy marketining campaigns a commlink is the next best thing since sliced bread. But to your paranoid conspiracy theorists it's plenty of ammunition for their overworked mind.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 11 2008, 07:20 AM

Commlink=Smartphone.

In the last few years, we saw portable phones become more and more versatile. Cameras are now standard, as are MP3 players and some calendar function. In Africa, portable phones are already used to transfer money from one user to another, often accross countries to their family, or to pay for goods.

So, I see commlinks as as spread as portable phones today. Yes, everyone will have one.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 11 2008, 07:49 AM

Speaking from a German perspective here:
I was quite disappointed when I discovered the "WiFi" term in the German SR4 book. Why? Because that term is not at all common here in Germany! We usually call that technology WLAN (Wireless Local Area Network) or Funknetz ("radio network").

Posted by: nathanross Apr 11 2008, 07:52 AM

I hate the term WiFi because it has absolutely nothing to do with SR and degrades the SR Matrix to being like our current technology. WiFi or Wireless Fidelity is great in 2008. But it is just ad-speak that caught on. I hate seeing it in the book because I get the feeling it was put there to make the matrix more accessible (though incomplete) for new players by comparing it to current technology. The same goes for the supposed RFID proliferation which is a blow up of current technology. I guess I am sick of seeing the modern world in SR. I expect SR to be different, and so far everything they have done in SR4 has been to bring it closer.

And as for BTL's they come with the player built in (sim-module as well, IIRC) so all you need is a cable and a jack. I do not see bums owning commlinks. Far too new a technology. And where is the corp looking out for the bottom line? If commlinks are so proliferate, why aren't the corps charging subscription fees?

(Drinks and remembers the Glory Days)

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 11 2008, 08:29 AM

I like it when SR adapts, and in my campaign, we had smartphones for decades, so commlinks are nothing new at all.
Subscription fees I cover by lifestyle.

Posted by: ornot Apr 11 2008, 10:42 AM

Today mobile phones are tremendously widely used. There are whole families living in a single room in deprived third world conditions, who still scrape together the money for mobile phones and satellite TV. Similarly there is no reason why in SR almost everyone except truly destitute street people would have a commlink. SINless could probably get hold of the equivalent of PayAsYouGo type 'links. Bear in mind that there will be a wide range of providers competing for customers, which will keep the price down (I also include connection fees in lifestyle costs). I always run my world with a thriving greymarket culture which caters to the SINless, and can be accessed by runners who want to keep their identities secret. Syndicate backed banking services strike me as a logical extension of modern day loansharking. I'd suggest that in the cheapest commlinks (specifically the PayAsYouGo and syndicate backed type), users would be exposed to far more advertising and spam. People with higher lifestyle, and consequently higher cost comlink providers, would have more effective spam catchers.

I accept that SR4 is trying to adapt to reflect advances in current tech, and personally I prefer it. Having things unwired makes it easier to incorporate hackers/deckers/riggers into runs.

Finally... Funknetz! I see a new disco trend emerging in my SR world! Fibreoptic afro hairdo's! Cyber platforms! I guess it is the '70s again.

Posted by: Zak Apr 11 2008, 10:50 AM

quoted for awesomeness

Posted by: fatal2ty Apr 11 2008, 02:39 PM

Fiberoptic afro, holy crap, that is possibly the most awesome thing I've heard of since, well, anything I guess.

I'm gonna have my group get into a fight with a bunch of gangers, a couple of them sporting Fiberoptic Afros

Posted by: nathanross Apr 11 2008, 05:06 PM

Sure, they have had Pocket Secretaries for a while. The big difference was that your pocket secretary != cyberdeck. Now that they are one in the same, I need more of a reason why everyone does not have R6 commlinks. Aside from availability (which is completely based on game balance), they dont cost a whole lot more for the functionality. It is foolish that more than half the population would not be running around with them. Once you have one, there is no need to upgrade (which is completely unrealistic).

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 11 2008, 05:16 PM

Until 2071, when your R6, is now the new R4.
I think this is how it would happen, so anyone running a R1 commlink probably got it in 2065 with the start of wireless. R4 is probably a couple years old. People running a R6 have something thats only a couple months old.

Posted by: ornot Apr 11 2008, 05:21 PM

Hopefully in Unwired they'll introduce rules for rating degradation...

I'm not too comfortable arbitrarily implementing rating changes without some playtesting for balance.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 11 2008, 05:26 PM

I'm pretty sure upkeep, and updates were supposed to be covered in unwired. I can't remember where I heard that though.

But just theorizing a simple rating markdown of 1 every 6 months would probably be good. (of course Rating 1 minimum)

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Apr 11 2008, 08:28 PM

I hope you guys are making mages pay upkeep for their spells and Magic attribute too.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 11 2008, 08:38 PM

As for the price of commlinks: my cell-phone costs hundreds of dollars....or so I'm told, I got it for 50 bucks with a 2-year phone contract renewal.
I don't think anyone (normal people now, not shadowrunners) really pays for a cheap commlink, it's just part of a monthly bill. You can probably even get used ones for free, that some corp has "generously" collected, loaded with spyware, and donated to the public. I have no problem believing that everyone can get their hands on a crap commlink, and there also exists a market for very high-end links that people will pay a lot of money to have.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 11 2008, 08:50 PM

Magic isn't as technological cutting edge as software and computer systems. Mages spells only come in one grade (known and unknown), and they pay their upkeep in karma for initiaition. Hackers need some form of upkeep, otherwise with the copying of software they have 0 upkeep. All their cash can go to lifestyle, and all their karma can goto new abilities. They are currently the only occupation that stalls completely. Riggers have to repair and update drones, sammies have to buy ammo and medical expenses. Mages have spells, and initiations.

Hackers only have to reboot their commlink to fix it right now, and have a relatively lower amount of damage they take (this varies from GM to GM of course). And as stated they buy all their programs at 6, and a commlink with 6 ratings (which costs a total of 4,000 post creation, which is just the response, everything else is perfectly legit to start with), and the hacker is done.

Posted by: nathanross Apr 11 2008, 09:29 PM

"Man, my spells are feeling so out of date, I need to go get the new version."

And while we're at it, what about Attribute upkeep? Do you loose a point of strength while you spend a month (or multiple months) suspended in a tube getting genetech done? That would be a bitch! Technology is something much easier to deal with, though Im not sure I like the decrease in Response over time.

Posted by: O'Donnell Heir Apr 11 2008, 10:59 PM

"Why doesn't everyone have an Alienware computer? Sure they're very expensive, but you get a lot out of it as well and it's some of the best and most powerful computers on the market." This is what I'm hearing when someone say "Why doesn't everyone have an R6?"

Because they don't need it, it's just not cost effective when you're only using it for cyber clubs, hang outs, VR games, and what equates to today's surfing the web. You could do all that on a fairly low grade cyberdeck, and you just don't need the extra power unless you're specifically trying to do something out of the ordinary with it (Wage slave programmer/controller, Hacker, Rigger, Corp, ect.). The same goes for any non-hacker, why spend the money buying something you're not going to get the full use out of, when you can get something for roughly half the price and still get all you need out of it. Unless you expect every joe blo out there to be able to design and build sprites, software, and entire rigs. It seems you're looking at it very much from the eyes of a Shadowrunning Hacker.

Posted by: ornot Apr 12 2008, 12:08 AM

Realistically, I'd expect a natural high strength/body character to train pretty extensively to stay in shape. Or invest in some http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125671.800to not have his body breakdown all that muscle.

Admittedly all that training would probably be done in downtime, so the player wouldn't experience the pain.

Technically a hacker might well dedicate his downtime to writing and rewriting his programs to maintain their ratings, but at some stage he'll need more hardware.

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 12 2008, 01:40 AM

Also, if spells were primarily used to deal with (or more accurately against) other spells, everyone would have to keep up with the magical arms race. But spells are mostly used on people or objects, so there's no need. That said, enforcing SotA-type stuff has no real in-game purpose other than to make hackers spend money (or time), although it does also promote a sense of progress/escalation without giving anyone extremely ridiculous dice pools.

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 12 2008, 02:18 AM

Funknetz is a great, great word, as noted. But for real, WiFi is the name of a company, or more precisely WiFi Alliance is the name of a not-for-profit certification org. The technology is WLAN, or whatever, but that's not really a pronounceable word in English (in German it's a type of custard, I believe). "WiFi" refers to a single standard so that the different devices are interoperable, because it would be kind of sucky to have a wireless device that can't talk to other wireless devices. Sort of like buying a Zune. OH, BURN! But really. You don't want that.

The term was coined by the same marketing wizards who came up with "Prozac". Think about that -- although there are newer and probably better antidepressants out now, we still mostly talk about Prozac, right? The name occupies a niche in popular culture that Zoloft or sertraline just isn't going to usurp. Maybe "wifi" will have the same sort of staying power.

Posted by: nathanross Apr 12 2008, 03:18 AM

Because as the rules are currently written, there will never be anything better, and it will never get old. There is also no physical difference between 1 and 6. Sure, not everyone needs the best, but the best sure is cheap.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 12 2008, 09:24 AM

Nathanross... did you enforce this rule when you were playing 2nd edition rules?

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 12 2008, 09:26 AM

Just to make it clear for anyone who might not know: The German noun "Funk" (and the related verb "funken") has no relation to the "funk" music style! The u in Funk is pronounced like oo in "moose" or e in "few".
A Funknetz is simply a Netzwerk (network) that uses Funkwellen (radio waves).


Well, in German WLAN is usually pronounced as if it were a German acronym - roughly: Veh-Lunn.


Maybe in the US, yes. The thing is, "wifi" is not a term known over here - as Germany (and all of Europe, AFAIK) doesn't use wifi! Our wireless networks use the closely related but slightly different http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11 standard.
And when you look at a name like "IEEE 802.11" you understand why "WLAN" is preferred...

Posted by: Synner667 Apr 13 2008, 10:52 PM

Thank you for your input, one and all.

Couple of things tho..

Trodes need the use of a Sim Module [pg 318].
Using a Sim Module overrides the motor functions while you are immersed in the Sim. Your physical body is limp, as if you were sleeping [pg 318]

So that doesn't sound it's much use for walking around and interacting with the world !!

Also, even if that was viable, there's no mention of being able to interact - just receive information/sensory input..
..It's not for overlaying images, etc to the users sight - it's for sensory immersion.

So, Simsensing isn't a viable option - prices [and the take up] would stay as they are.


No-one's mentioned the interaction of realworld with the overlayed world, as would be needed for using Augmented Reality..
..Any thoughts ??


No-one's mentioned anything about the Commlink being able to see what the user sees and reacting to it [tho someone mentioned triangulation of signale, but I'd go against that because of the lack of finesse in interpreting signals]..
..Any thoughts ??


Can't really see the wireless networks being a series of ad-hoc connections..
..Simply because it's not made only of Commlinks - it's have to have some sort of backbone for everything that's not a Commlink - signs, gear, etc.

And with that is the ownership of such an infrastructure - the Corps will only do it if they can make money from it..
..Which would indicate a poor/basic service for free, and a good service with a subscription.

Hiding in a wirless network ??
Nice idea, but if you can receive a signal from anyone, you're not hidden..
..In the same way that mobile phones can be tracked by triangulating their signal, as long as they're on - regardless if they're accepting calls or not.


Distributed storage or computing ??
Not sure that in a world just recovering from an AI created global network collapse, people would be too willing to let just anyone pass information through their processors, or store data in their storage.


The term WiFi is a publicity term, something nice for consumers to understand and for packaging..
..And is widespread wherever people use English - regardless of whether it's accurate.

No-one in a wireless future will think about connections, or the tech behind it, except the real developer techies [notice how no-one in Star Trek worries about it, because it's just part of life]..
..In the same way that no-one in SR worries about OS's. memory speeds, bandwidth, etc - it's very boring and doesn't really add anything.

Yes, I know many SR people are technically oriented, and many people really do think that detailing the technical aspects of vehicles or guns actually add something to SR..
..But that's not most people.


When I grab my iPhone and go places, I switch it on and use it - I surf the web, send emails and look up maps without worrying where I am or what sort of connection I'm using [my costs are included and I generally get good access]
The main thing I can't do is have the information in my field of view, with interaction with phantom button/signs/etc..
..Which is what I'd need an Image Link and AR Gloves for, and that'll add much expense to my ownership.


As I see it, the whole wireless thing was put in by the developers because it's supposed to make people want to play Hackers, because they want to make SR 'accessible' and because they think it's one way to 'update' SR.

I think they messed up big time with, and no-one really cares about such stuff.

Hackers are a staple of the genre, but remaking the game just so they can be with the other characters indicates [to me] that they looked at the wrong thing..
..Remoulding Hackers and Riggers to be the same thing ??
Totally ignores Riggers and Hackers in cyberpunk fiction, and really shows how much they bent the game out of shape to make things fit.

There are several RPG based on cyberpunk and they all suffer from the Hacker problem, but they don't remake the RPG to make them viable..
..They offer them as a choice, and leave them for Players to play - or not.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 13 2008, 11:45 PM

Only when you are fully immersed is your motor function impaired by the sim module. It is, furthermore, trivial to selectively overwrite portions of the experience field when you can already write the correct things to the right part (overwriting the entire field of view requires knowledge of how to selectively overwrite every small bit of the field of view individually). Furthermore, if you cannot also manipulate controls whilst using ASIST, then how do you get anything done in VR? I therefore believe that most will be able to manipulate standard computing UI objects using only their minds (as they would have to in VR) and that would extend to using ASIST with AR, plus you have an internal model of your limb position anyway and this could potentially be extracted with credulous near-future-tech to allow you to handle AR controls with your hands.

Your Commlink will have some form of positioning system (potentially using signal strength from devices with known, fixed locations) and would be able to identify relatively accurately where other objects are through multiple triangulations, or else all wireless accessable devices inherently know where they are (again, possibly using signal strength from known devices with fixed locations). This is not too "inaccurate" since we're not dealing with precision systems (since when did your everyday activities necessitate precision?), and your accuracy for triangulation improves with the more known points, anyway, and I expect that there are going to be a number of well known nodes that will have their positions accurately measured and that these will be used to get a good fix on locations.

I do not think that you want AR and the real world to interact, it'd be an inconvenience if someone walking too close to you disrupted your phone call with someone important, or your important financial transaction, or filling out that important bureaucratic form that tells the government that you're really alive and would like to get a SIN.

You can keep your opinions on the development reasons behind the introduction of AR and wireless networking in Shadowrun, I'll continue to imagine the awesome possibilties and fawn over it becoming a reality in our world.

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 13 2008, 11:56 PM

Yeah, the English word "funk" comes from French, sort of, but still, any word that has "funk" in it is great: Telefunken, Funkensender, Funknetz

WLAN Smithy. Super-WLAN. Etc. Of course, we have the clumsy "doubleyou" pronunciation of "W", or the slack-jawed yokelish "dubyuh". For some reason "dub" hasn't really ever caught on.

So realy, 802.11? That's, like, old and slow legacy stuff.

Posted by: kzt Apr 14 2008, 12:03 AM

No IEEE standard 802.11 has all wireless PHY and MAC layer stuff. A B ... through Z (minus L, O, Q and X)

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 14 2008, 12:04 AM

Er? To me the point of AR, pretty much, is interacting with RL -- overlays, AROs, little info things where your various sensor data shows up (like a highlighted area where your mm-wave radar has detected a concealed handgun under someone's jacket and whatnot).

Posted by: kzt Apr 14 2008, 12:11 AM

If you are feeling bored, watch this http://www.vimeo.com/769193 mostly on interfaces. He mentions that a number of the cyberpunk tropes are there because they make it easer to tell a story in a book, not because they really make any real sense. Including the concept of AR glasses that he created.

"Just listening to Bruce lay out the litany of devices that the mobile phone has replaced is a moment of sheer technological hilarity; and hearing him talk about why science fiction writers love talking computers (which all turn into Mr Clippy in the real world) is an eye-opening exercise in the difference between sensawunda and cognitive loading. "

Posted by: NativeRigger Apr 14 2008, 01:22 AM

I think there might be a little bit of hubris in his statements. Cyberpunk's concept of AR is not in the least bit original, it's simply an evolution of military HUD technology that was around decades before cyberpunk. It's not even that highly refined when you consider the targetting monocles on "modern" helo gunships that originated slightly before the birth of cyberpunk. And of course we shouldn't even have to discuss the practicality issue.

-NR

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 14 2008, 02:40 AM

Oh, sure, you want the AR to relate to the real world, but you don't want physical objects to interact with AROs. There is a difference between the two and it is important. Interaction is active, relation is passive. You want your AROs to interact with logical devices and other AROs, but only relate to the physical world. If they interacted with the physical world, then people passing nearby would knock your ARO windows around and that would make working with them somewhat difficult.

Your driving directions overlay ARO wouldn't be very useful if passing cars knocked it off the road, nor would that handy overlay of the subjects internal organs be useful if your scalpel throws it to the floor when you make incissions. You do not want your AROs to interact with the physical world because the interactions would be one way (physical -> AR) and not conducive to the usefulness of AR unless such interaction is intended to be part of the ARO program (like, say, miracle shooter).

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 14 2008, 07:48 AM

Actually, from my understanding and some Wikipedia reading: "Wi-Fi" is a marketing term coined by the Wi-Fi Alliance, an alliance of hardware manufacturers that certify wireless network hardware. Only hardware manufactured by an alliance member can sport the "Wi-Fi" logo.
But the technology behind the marketing is IEEE 802.11!
So Wi-Fi is IEEE 802.11 but IEEE 802.11 is not Wi-Fi (though both terms are used interchangeably in some countries). Kinda like Ubuntu and Debian.

The most common WLAN speeds you can find here in Germany are 11MBit/s (802.11b) and 54MBit/s (802.11g). The next version (802.11n, 540MBit/s) is scheduled for 2009 although some hardware based on preliminary specifictions ("draft-n") is already around.
There are also some non-standard networks around ("PBCC", "802.11b+", "802.11g++") but you need proprietary hardware for those.

Posted by: ornot Apr 14 2008, 09:28 AM

/I edited out the bits I wasn't going to address. Hope you don't mind.

In many cases AR doesn't need to interact with RL. Windows or objects would be projected into the users FOV using simsense the same way deckers have interacted with VR since the early days of SR. The difference being that RL is still perceivable through or behind the overlay. Consistent with this, AROs that pop up in response to RFIDs would display whatever information they were encoded with, perhaps including the proximity and direction the signal comes from, if pertinent (signs, for example). AR that maps to RL in the FOV - AR architecture and the like - is harder to justify without handwavium, but we're already accepting two way translation between mental impulses and electronics with the existence of cyberware. Consider, though, that with satnavs we have digital models of our location, and GPS is already increasingly available on mobile phones, so the stumbling block is simply the overlay of that digital model in the right orientation into the simsense overlay.

I have no problem with the wireless infrastructure being owned, operated, and profited upon by the corps. However, we don't charge our PCs water rates based on how many showers they take, or even RP the showering process (at least in most games I'd imagine) and I never had a phone bill for using my phone in SR3; it is all assumed and covered by the lifestyle costs. I would assign the same status to SR4 commlink charges.

As far as being 'in hidden mode', note that the Sniffer program can still pick up a Hidden PAN. The way I see it, is that a Hidden network is not advertising its existence, and is minimising its data usage - shutting down instant messenger programs and not broadcasting the users profile, not accepting connections initiated by other devices etc. It would still be pretty damned obvious in a low data environment, such as the wilderness, but in a high intensity signal environment, picking it out from the crowd would be tricky, as the RAW suggests.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 14 2008, 09:55 AM

As I read it, the *wireless* infrastructure on the street isn't owned by the megacorps. I think it's made pretty clear that short-range traffic is handled on a mesh-style peer-to-peer networking basis by all the nodes in range which overlap. It's the protocols that enforce this cooperation while preventing (by default at least; obviously a hack could change this) snooping on the traffic, which permitted the rapid regrowth of Matrix 2.0 from the ashes of the Crash.

The Corps own the longer-distance hops, of course, and they'll be *participants* in the melange of service provision at street level, but it's only the gateway nodes that will be paying the Corps for connectivity, and as such they'll be microcharging your account and/or ramming paid advertising down your virtual gullet as you use them. Deckers of course have ways of avoiding such charges.

Posted by: wanderer_king Apr 14 2008, 10:26 AM

AR was a really neat inclusion to SR4 IMO.... I gave it a somewhat updated feel. As to the commlink issue, you need to consider the following; Decks were orginally about the size of a laptop, and were in a lot of ways the developers original idea on what mobile computing would be in the future; however technology has significantly advanced since SR was originally publish, and computers have become way more common than the developers could have predicted at the time. Commlinks are to cellphones as the original idea of decks were to laptops at the time; an idealized future version with more power. However, they also represent the computerized world. Also, I love the idea that people would interact and even base perceptions on a network id.... as for owning one, I see it as if you aren't broadcasting an active pan in certain security zones or conditions, the Star is likely to assume you are a runner or criminal and hose you down, rather than exposing themselves to counter-fire to confirm if you are a criminal...... good motivations for even the poorest of people to buy, find or steal a commlink.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 14 2008, 11:59 AM

I assume walking through the streets of 2070 with AR is like walking around in an MMOG today. You've got the mini-map displayed somewhere in a corner, for quick orientation, you see tags on all objects with RIFD, and you can quickly /examine them for more information (looking up profiles, accessing AR menus of vending machines, and so on) and your friends' short messages pop up in a chat window while you speak with others over your phone (ventrilo, teamspeak). Info boxes from your gun, and other gear pop up as well, and thank to RIFD tags, you can even sift through your gear (inventory) electronically.

With a biomonitor, you even have your "Life counter" .

Posted by: Rad Apr 14 2008, 12:29 PM

I dunno, I think that would make for a pretty hilarious mod. Maybe one of those practical joke things like the Blue Screen of Death screensaver?

>Imagines a hacker uploading that mod to the pursuing security forces<

Try to use that smartlink now sucker!

As for the Bruce Sterling video, he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. He just got done claiming that a direct brain/computer interface is impossible, when it's already been done years ago--I'll see if I can pull an article up on the net.

(Short version is, paraplegic got an experimental implanted device that allowed him to wirelessly move a mouse pointer with his brain, and I think he could type letters too.)

Finally, on to the topic at hand:

I'd say the #1 reason for people to carry commlinks is: It carries your SIN. Without it, prove you're not SINless.

If you are SINless, and aren't interested in pretending otherwise, then fine, don't get a commlink--I wonder if LoneStar will give you a cheap one to hold the criminal SIN they'll issue you when they pick you up.

As for displays, comlinks have a built-in Trid display. Unless I've misinterpreted the text--and alot of the artwork--trid is loosely analogous to modern holograms. IE: You're commlink doesn't have to have a big screen, it's display can hover in the air over the device, which you see happening in several of the illustrations.

A lot of this stuff is covered in the description of commlinks in the main rulebook. AR Gloves and Image-Linked shades or cybereyes are nifty and do add some functionality, but a commlink will still function as a stand-alone device. Think of it as the difference between using a pda, and using a pda hooked up to a docking station with a full-sized keyboard and external monitor.


Finally, about the "WiFi is a brand name" thing: So is "Band-Aid", but you don't hear many people asking for "Adhesive Strips" when they get cut. Marketing works, sad but true.

Posted by: Blade Apr 14 2008, 12:37 PM

Actually I suppose that Windows somehow interact with RL to arrange the display so that it doesn't cover anything too important. As far as I know that's one of the big issues with AR/HUD displays.

Posted by: Rad Apr 14 2008, 02:40 PM

There's also transparency, which works to a greater or lesser degree. Like Fuchs said, these are all things that you already see in videogames, so it isn't hard to imagine how they'd be implemented in real life.

Posted by: Synner667 Apr 14 2008, 06:24 PM

Considering that wireless networks are locked down now [well, in theory - many people and companies don't seem to do too good a job of basic wireless security], I don't see that an ad-hoc wireless network will let people connect and pass data through them..
..Especially not just a short time after yet another Matrix crash.




That's pretty much how I envision it.

However, in a computer game you use a mouse and/or keyboard keys to select various options..
..But how to do that for a HUD, with no brain connection ??




I don't mind at all - thank you for asking



That's a great phrase, I'm sure it'll crop up in my conversations




My thoughts are about the fact that if you are online and connected, the Corp will know about you and where you are and who the system says you are..
..They are almost guaranteed to log who signs, etc interact with [for advertising, if not for security], so the only way to hide would be to switch off.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Apr 14 2008, 10:17 PM

Well, consider why the Matrix crashed this time. The first time was because nothing was secure against the godlike power of a Crash virus, which somehow teleported over sneakernets and destroyed offline backups as well. So, you had the creation of monolithic fortress-esque Hosts, which provided a safe backbone that could fight the new threat of a virus.

That was the 2029 Crash, and it shaped what the matrix of the 2060s looked like, and why it was substantially more mainframe-driven than the Internet is today. The 2064/65 Crash happened because of that vulnerability: the presence of a backbone is what gave Winterknight something to attack with his magical EMP-nukes, or whatever they were. This exposed the fundamental problems of a mainframe-based architecture: a "single" point of failure.

The solution there was to build a worldwide mesh network, with all the redundancies that our current internet is supposed to have (but really no longer does, because ATM switches and fiber optic cable are expensive enough that corps would rather spend their effort bilking their customers than ensuring the future of their companies...) This can be done because 1) wireless technology has suddenly, magically, become able to transmit insane levels of information easily and instantly, so much so that I suspect that they're actually using subspace or some spectrum other than electromagnetic, and 2) computing power is so cheap now that you can carry a Host's worth of processing power in your pocket for less than a thousand dollars.

That's why people have open wireless networks, and why you can retransmit through your toaster, the street lights, your neighbor's cat's RFID collar, Joe Wageslave's RFID-laden "vitamin supplement", etc. Everyone has a vested interest in not seeing a Crash 3.0, so everyone goes out of their way to retransmit, to keep the data flowing.

Except for those selfish clods working in Hidden Mode, who are terrorists and must be arrested before they set off the magical EMP-nuke under their clothing.

Posted by: Therumancer Apr 15 2008, 01:58 AM

Okay, let's look at this from a game design standpoint, which is what I think some people are missing.

What was one of the biggest problems with Shadowrun? Simply put the entire "Decker" class and the fact that to be a really good Decker you had to pretty much blow chips (compared to other PCs and threats made to challenge them) in the real world. Not to mention the fact that to design Cyberspace well took a lot of time and effort, and ultimatly amounted to running a seperate adventure during which time the rest of the PCs would twiddle their thumbs.

Not to mention the fact that logically there was no real reason for a Decker to ever subject himself to danger, which could make the game even more dull, if the Decker chooses to act totally by Sat link. I mean only an idiot would take a job that required physical infiltration if you think about it, and the whole logic of "self contained systems" holding all of the useful paydata was really stretching things to keep the game running. The bottom line is the only reason why these ridiciulous systems (which are impractical for a lot of reasons explained in various novels) existed, and why Deckers were taking stupid jobs specifically so they couldn't operate by remote (to be adequetly 'threatened' for their rewaqrd), and everything else was entirely contrived. Not to mention the work that needed to go into the whole cyberspace thing and the problems that arose there.

The Wireless idea *IS* dumb, even more so that what we had before, especially when you consider that everything from a jacket to a gun is linked into it somehow, and despite all common sense. Generally mechanical devices don't need to be electronically linked up. But the idea was that by setting things up like this it gave Deckers a reason to go places in person, and something to do while there.

As written the basic idea is basically that while the other PCs are fighting, the Decker can "attack" people by hacking their equipment. Say shutting off the guns of a security team (lord only knows how), screwing with someone's jacket, or whatever else. Indeed one thing that was mentioned but wasn't covered well was that supposedly in this society your Jacket or whatever might also be your MP-3 player. Giving a lot of flexibility for improvisation through this kind of hacking.

Now from a pure game design standpoint, I can see why they did this. But in doing so they created something that I don't think even most of the writers can truely envision or justify, which is why so many people talk about this aspect of "the new edition" in general.

The idea of the various "worldwide crisis events" are pretty typical however. Major events allow previous ideas and concepts to be resold after a bit of refurbishment. It's the same thing D&D has been pulling for years with say "The Forgotten Realms". New edition of game mechanics? "well okay we'll have some novelists write up some crud about gods whacking each other and clashing armies and mass devestation, and then we can sell new sourcebooks on "Waterdeep", "Cormyr", and all the other popular areas with some changes to reflect the latest crisis, but we can also re-use a lot of stuff, and sell to people who wanted the last edition which was out of print". As a result you rarely see them go into a lot of the more obscure areas or answer a lot of the tougher issues that have had people wondering for years.

Shadowrun seems to do the same thing, except instead of gods we have Matrix crashes and such. Then we get re-sold books on Seattle or whatever.

Hindsight being what it is it's easy to criticize however. Truth be told I think they were generally right though to want to come up with a system like this to more fully intergrate The Decker-type into the party and give him something to do that didn't involve his own personal little adventure.

Though honestly, I think they should have looked towards a few other science fiction concepts, or even MMORPGs like "Anarchy Online".

Nano-Tech has been floating around in Shadowrun for a while, and if it was intergrated on a large scale, or even a smaller (but more availible) one, I could easily see Deckers attacking by programming Nanites like in Anarchy Online, given that the technique for dealing with swarms of microscopic robots and making programs for them would probably be a lot differant than controlling a single vehicle with your consciousness.

Not a great idea but buying and programming nanite swarms (or dealing with portions of a massive swarm around the planet) would probably have been a better way to go than this "Wireless" thing.


>>>----Therumancer--->

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Apr 15 2008, 03:29 AM

Ugh, SR as ubiquitous super-nanites? Bleagh; I'd rather go with Frank's Brainhacking Matrix rules, and I have some major difficulties with that idea.

The thing is, the SR3 decker rules weren't really all that bad; they were just inconsistent, very poorly organized, and had that extra fluff layer that was a holdover from SR2, where your decker went on an epic journey through the innards of the physical host, looking for the CPU at the center. Really the best way to run the Matrix would be the way that the rules discouraged the most: your Decker wafts through a representation of the building like a digital ghost, running overwatch and trying to avoid detection. If they detect you, they either trace you and you die from parachuting stormtroopers or whatever, or they Black Hammer you and you bleed your brains out through your nose.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 15 2008, 05:06 AM

Maybe the idea that wireless signals can be routed through your clothing and/or guns should be dropped, but routing it through public infrastructure is logical. In England they're going that way.

The next paragraphs are COMPLETELY pulled out of my butt and there is no balance/sanity checks to see if it's workable. This is just me throwing out ideas.

Now here's an idea to make deckers believable again. Bring back the "cyberdeck". It is either a piece of cyberware which will cost a lot (min price of 80,000 and cost 2 Essence) or cost 60,000 , but can get lost and/or stolen. The cyberdeck would have integrated memory (so much that unless the GM is evil, then the decker can download it), and all the other dodadds that a Decker would need: Encephalon, Math SPU, Attention co-processors, simsense booster, and of course the processor (the Response).

Now the commlink in the main rule book would still allow a person to get online in AR (or if they have the cyberware version AR or VR). The commlink would be a combination Turtle cyberdeck (which if I remember correctly sucked majorly when it came to hacking) & radio. If I'm missing anything then please chime in. Now the commlink would still allow you to run some programs (like Stealth so you can hide yourself, Spoof so you can route your traffic though another wireless node, and Firewall so you can protect yourself), but it's Response would suck so badly (as compared to a cyberdeck) that it's not worth hacking with it (this would be the tool of Script Kiddies in SR).

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 15 2008, 05:51 AM

You've just made the system actively worse. If I can get nothing useful from my wireless connection because it is made of feta cheese and fail, why do I have one? Why not press the off switch?

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 15 2008, 06:38 AM

If that was directed to me, I did say that I was just throwing out ideas. Those ideas were neither balanced nor sanity checked. I was just trying to get people thinking.

Posted by: nathanross Apr 15 2008, 06:45 AM

Nice writing Therumancer. You really summed it up. Not sure I agree with your solutions though.

Kitsune, I also agree that the deck needs to return. However, before the deck can return, the Matrix rules need a complete workover. The main issues that I see:

• Extended tests (I used to love them until I realized that there is no point in even doing it because they will eventually get in; there is no way to fail)
• Skill + Program is just stupid. We have been using Logic + Skill (hits limited to program rating), but this is not even a fix as Extended tests still mean they always win given some time.
• Getting in is easy, its doing stuff that is the issue. An opposed test should be called for and a security tally kept. I know this may not have been the most popular rule, but it is great balance.
• My current idea for the opposed test is a threshold based on ACIFS ratings that is modified by the programs. On the other hand the system would role against Masking. (thats the way it worked right?)

I know the biggest problem with the old Matrix rules was the size and complexity, but that was also their strength. A real solid way to get the best of both worlds would just be to come up with a bullet proof base system, and then make an optional quick way to resolve things. That is much better than throwing all previous work out the window for a Matrix that is so lackluster I dont even want to deck it.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 15 2008, 09:14 AM

Yup. I made my original post so I could get people talking and brainstorming.

Posted by: ornot Apr 15 2008, 09:18 AM

I can't in all honesty claim "handwavium" as mine own, but I do like it.

I intend to address the question of why anyone would bother with a commlink or wirelessly enabling any of their kit. I shan't get into the whole debate about how to make the matrix better, although the role of the hacker in a party does intersect somewhat.

Everyone is keen on boosting their DPs, and by being more wirelessly enabled the hacker is better able to provide everyone with AR bonuses. Sure you can switch off your link, but then you also loose comms, and shared gun telemetry data. Low tech radios could provide comms, but those are about as likely to be tapped as commlink traffic. It boils down to this: If people are prepared to spend 10BP on a single dice, why would they not spend 1BP on a potential 4 dice?

Those bonuses are prevented from becoming penalties due to opposing hacker actions by the team's hacker running security overwatch. To a certain extent a team doesn't even need a specialist hacker - considering the cheapness of buying hacking programs anyone can run as a script kiddy. It's entirely possible that one slightly more techy orientated character could run overwatch and provide a gun at the same time. I think it's all part of trying to integrate hacking into the party so it doesn't become a whole separate adventure, however entertaining that might have been.

Synner: The ability of a corp to track commlink users transactions and day to day activity is canon. For this reason there is a (lamentably short) section on how runners avoid being traced. It boils down to spoofing your signal, or paying a hacker to spoof it for you. I eagerly await some more clarification on this in Unwired, although I dislike that that supplement must be regarded as panacea for SR4's matrix ills.

Posted by: KCKitsune Apr 15 2008, 09:32 AM

I first heard the term on spacebattles.com

The whole phrase is handwavium unobtainium. It describes those materials that have never heard of before now.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 15 2008, 10:29 AM

to tell the truth, i keep getting the real life feel that unless your into tech, you dont really care about computer security.

hell, my parents computer would not have any usable anti-virus installed if i didnt take active steps towards maintaining it.

as in, the hackers and corp security knows that the network is swiss cheese, but the joe on the street and the ceo just want his life to be simpler, so its either allow it or get replaced by a yes-man.

there always have been and always will be a trade off between ease of use and security.

and unless you work in security every day, your preference will rest with ease of use.