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Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 13 2008, 10:20 PM

Alrighty then. So Cyberlimbs with Augmentation got awesome. Really awesome.

However, there are a few things im a bit unclear on, and it was probably me again misreading something. I tend to do that alot. It usually takes me awhile to be able to commit everything to memory.

If i recall, i THINK i remember reading that if someone has, say, a pair or arms or legs that are 9/9/9(however they got there), a torso of the same(i think the torso HAS to be the minimum body, strength, and agility of the arms if the user wants to use the arms/legs to their fullest potential), they are averaged with their meat-limbs. This i think has been the same throughout the versions(it took me awhile to digest M&M too, back in the day). So someone with a natural body, agility, and strength of 4, and a torso and two arms or legs all at 9, they would essentially have either 7 or 6. Do you count the torso in this average? 9x3(torso, 2 limbs), is 27, 4x2(other two limbs), is 8, 35/5=7.

But not counting the torso, it would be 9x2(18)+4x2(=26/4, or 6 after you round down.

So would the average physical stats be using 7 or 6 in this case?

Now, if i recall it's the same now as it was then with 'leading with said cyberlimb'. If someone specifically states they are attacking with their augmented cyberlimb, you use those stats. But if you just say ''i attack'', you use your Average stats. And if you state you are attacking with your NATURAL limb, you would use THIS stat.

Am i correct on this?

I'm tinkering with a near full conversion, a fellow with a torso and two legs pumped up. Ive gotten the Urge in me to do something pretty crazy that I had in mind. And since we don't use Availaiblity the cyberworld is my playground here, pretty much.

Has anyone here done characters under the new rules with extensive mods like this? I'm not talking 'an arm', im talking at least the torso/two limbs thing. Doing a FULL torso/arm/leg conversion would be great(especially for what i had in mind, i really kinda wanna play an implant addicted character, after i read that flaw i thought it was awesome for a character and i have a great idea bubbling in my head about this that will spill over unless i take it off the proverbial stove), but while Availability isn't a problem, nuyen and Essence are. (I don't quite want to go jarhead, even if i could. I kinda want the guy to at least have his head and maybe an arm intact). Besides, i wanted ot get him at least one level of initative enhancement, and that, naturally, is expensive in essence, and with the nuyen he's costing so far Alphaware might not even be an option here.

Of course then i have to realize without EXTRA mods(well, no problem for an implant addict i suppose), his arms are going to be just above average(has basic 4's in his physical stats, 5 Agility, he's an elf). Which is cool; since all of the power is going to his torso and lower body. This is why i was curious about combat; even if i got a couple levels of Muscle Augmentation(say, 3), his razors would of course use his Arm strength(which would be 7 afterward). OR, i can just leave his arms at a respectable 4, and just put all the cool toys in his torso and legs. Not sure yet here.

It might be odd to have him so one-sided(for example, if he planted his foot anchors to the ground and grabbed something that was trying to move, he would use average body strength and might well damage his arms in the process if the leg to arm ratio is REALLY different, and in this case its looking he's double in his lower body(he'll be around triple if i leave his arms Strength 4), and since i can, i might just go a lil' crazy). But if he planted a foot anchor in one thing, and then his other foot anchor in said object he's holding back...i'm guessing since his torso matches the legs, he would use total lower body strength. What about fighting? If he throws a punch, would he use Average Body Agility, but Arm Strength? A kick? Would he use Average Body Agility or Leg Agility? The kick would be Leg Strength, im almost positive(it was in SR3, but i never made a character with more than one limb in SR3. Hell, i've never made a character with more than one limb, ever.)

Ok, so he sounds like a specialized member of a Quirky Miniboss Squad-bonafide white-haired, red-eyed albino and elf on top of it, yeah, im going a bit bizzare here...i havn't done a kind of strange one for awhile-more than anything, but i think i have a good idea. And i tmight be cool to work in the fact his arms are well off with 4's and a 5 naturally, but how he balances that with UberLegs and Torso of Doom. (You know the Quirky Miniboss Squads in action games and movies, they all have a 'schtick' or two. I figure for my first multi-limb guy i might as well have fun.)

50 Resources are by far needed, already. And yeah, given his excessive implants and addiction, Biocompatibility(cyber) is going in as well.

Is it viable to have a character a little on the unbalanced side when it comes to limb abilities? I know some things are good to have even(like, equal level Hydraulic Jacks in the legs.)

Ok, so back to this...lifting. Lifting with only arms im guessing would use Arm strength, but isn't it a Str+Body test, and doesn't lifting use your whole body? So im guessing average here again. Unless for some reason he had to ONLY use his arms(but then would the torso count for anything?)

Sorry for the possible easy questions here, but i admit when it comes to mixing and matching body parts things get confusing. This is more of a rules discussion than a character critique, i just wanted to give a small background and basic examples.

And is there anything else i should know? Armored Limbs=Awesome, Good, Get Body Armor or Dermal Sheathing instead? and other little things.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 07:38 AM

*looks around*

*gentle bump*

heh, sorry. just for the limb rules saavy.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 08:34 AM

so i am a bit unclear on what exactly got replaced with this character now . . how many limbs? which ones? the torso of course, that much i gathered . .
but the attributes are a real problem with cyber-limbs, especially with averaging with natural body attributes . . since when does an torso need agility or strength? and if the head is left, do you have to pump up your neck/head strength, agility and body because they would seriously fuck you over if you leave them at low and the rest of your machine gets tuned to far out there?
that's a bit wonky . . but for averaging:
in unarmed(*snickers* detachale cyberarms) Combat you'd average unless you specifically state:"i kick him in the nuts!" then you'D use leg-stats . . with running again you'd be using leg-stats, but with something like climbing or swimming, where the whole body is working together, you get to average again . . i ain't really sure if that rule made it over, but in SR3 there were essence/nuyen discounts for certain pieces of ware, if you had cyber-limbs . . because they would have been incompatible with the limbs.
yes, full-metal-body and only meat-head but still has to pay full essence/nuyen price for dermal-/ortho-Tech and bone-works even if the only part of his body than can actually still take it is the head? a bit unfair no? same with muscle-work . . also, remember that bioware can not be put into cyber-limbs . . ok, with the not replacing of whole limb but augmenting it up untill it fits the description of cyberlimbs again, one could argue about that, but i won't *g*

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 08:47 AM

Well, his torso and legs are replaced. I decided that finally, i just didn't have the nuyen/essence left over; and i wanted at least one level of Initative Enhancement, and since they ditched Boosted Reflexes, im stuck with either horribly expensive or horribly Essence unfriendly stuff. (I mean, i'd LOVe MBW on this guy, even level one. But wowza, the cost.)

You know, i have my SR4 book here, but not the Augmentation on hand(my buddy has that so i can't refrence it), and come to think of it, I don't THINK Torsos need Agility. Strength, though, i could swear they needed but i could be wrong.

I'm not unbalancing his body horribly; he's not a super-strong torso and legs with 1's for his arms(where does the 'cyber neck' come in? does it come with the torso?), he's got a very respectable natural 4-5 spread in his two natural limbs(and head.) I did, again on top of that get some augmenting for them via mucle augmentation.(replacement was a no-go. Not enough essence). Also managed to get him a dermal sheath(WOW that thing is good.) Some even plastic bone lacing would have been nice too for his arms, but yeah, i forget about the whole 'pieced together' rule from SR3 where you took off..was it 5 or 10% of essence for each artifical limb?(but of course it lowered its use, too, to the point of having bone lacing in one arm wasn't worth the cost.)

Now, if i don't need Agility in my torso that frees up about 10k nuyen right there, since i don't need to buy Custom Agility or Agility bonus in the torso.(not to mention i have more Torso capacity to armor it up more.)

Yeah, i mean, i recall the 3e cyber rules better myself Stahl, but again i never went the 'more than half body' route. The averages make a bit more sense, I knew with Running, Jumping, etc, it's Leg stats, Gymnastics im guessing is Average, as is Climbing, unless i'm climbing with arms only. Any Strength tests(Body + Strength), would be average normally for lifting i think, Body+Str of Arms for raw arm lifting and i guess if i lifted with legs only, Body+Str of legs. The fighting think still confuses me...do I roll Average agility for a kick, or Leg agility for a kick, or Average agility for a punch, or Arm agility for a punch...

But I totally remember the old 'discount' rule from the old one. (I also remember when one tricked out limb cost more than a whole SUITE of limbs in SR4. )

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 09:07 AM

yeah, with us, that's even worse .. because we did away with capacity rules in SR3 . . so the 1 Million Nuyen Starting Character COU;D put 800k into his one arm if he wanted to . . but don't come crying if you lose it . .
if you punch, simple ONE ARM STRENGTH
if you kick, simple ONE LEG STRENGTH
those are the best examples for the leading with a limb you mentioned *g*
if it ain't a called shot, you're resisting damage with average, if it is, you're resisting with the limbs stats . .
oh, and of course RULES WISE the Torso/Head and the in between still need agility, strength and body . . but come on . . aside from a little bit of lifting and a little bit of athletics otherwise, what are you gonna do with a torso that is not part of a test with averaged attributes? sumo-smash somebody? o.O
do the belly ram buddy maneuvre? that's what i meant ^^
in my eyes, body is the only important attribute for torso and head . . and attributes for heads are still silly <.< . .
ah, so arms all natural and head too . . thought about switching the legs for raptors?
yeah, for arms, you will still need the bone and muscle-work and the dermal-stuff . .
oh and about that roso? remember, you need one free capacity slot to put Mr-Wang in there *snickers*

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 09:36 AM

Actually, in SR4 with these modular limbs, I can switch out the lower legs anytime I want. It's pretty insane. Again, Cyberlimbs have some real awesomeness now. So you can switch out raptors if you think you might have to run fast, put on Grip Feet if you need to climb, etc.



man, i got the greatest picture in my head from this. ''Meet the pro-wrestling troll....THE TORSO!!!''



<_<
>_>

...taken care of.

Yeah, I can kinda see why a Torso would need Agility(it isn't like, a static thing, you can turn it and twist it and bend it and stuff).

I guess unless you got a Static Torso which would suck.

Im afraid though in SR4 the rules might have changed alot more; some are the same, some different. I do know that each limb adds to your Damage Monitor in SR4. I forget if it adds to Damage Resistance. I think they need Armor for that.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 09:42 AM

yeah, they need armor, else you're pretty much fragged with cyber-limbs, as they, themselves, do not give any kind of bonus dice to damage resistance, as far as i know . . in SR3, they did not give boxes but gave body if they came in pairs or more so they helped a little bit with damage resistance, but that is due to new damage/armor-system *g*
ah yes, i forgot about torso-twist x.X
*snaps fingers* ah yes, kid stealth comes in modular now O.o
hmm . . could one combine kid-stealth-legs with grapple-feet?
and combine those grapple feet with foot-anchors and geck-stuff? probably not, but hey, that would be pretty much badass*g*

Posted by: Rad Apr 14 2008, 12:58 PM

The big issue with cyberlimb stats comes in when you're getting shot at, because even if you're head's the only meat part of you left, it'll still drag your reflexes and body average down.

It sounds weird at first, but imagine your tuned-up cyberbody dodging the shot, dragging your head behind it Warner Brothers style. Called shots are worse, because unless you've got synthetic limbs and he can't tell the difference, your attacker is probably going to aim for the fleshy bits.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 01:19 PM

Good point there. I did notice something about Cyberlimbs however; they don't include a Reaction score.


Reaction is the Dodge score. Roll it, or it plus dodge, or it plus gymnastics, or it plus parry, etc.


Im guessing they did this because your Reaction time has more to do with your 'brain' (initative is Reaction and Intuition now, after all) and less to do with your body. But yet it's a physical score, so i can be wrong there. Maybe it's a bit of both? I for example have heard of folks who, say, can run fast as living hell, but can't catch a ball if it's thrown at them from a meter.

But either way, even if you have a full suite of completely decked cyberlimbs and torso with 13s in all the Body, Strength, and Agility, with only your natural head remaining(for example, if you could via biocompatibility and betaware), if your natural reaction is 2, that's what you're rolling for dodge, no matter how superpowered the body you have is. (This is why i made sure not to gimp Reaction and am even trying to find room for an enhancer or two in there.)

Im not sure why they didn't include needing Reaction unless it is the aformentioned 'synapses hitting brain' thing; I mean i'm not complaining as it's less to have to purchase up with the rest of the stuff, but it is something to think of.

Oh, and i'm SO getting a helmet.

As for his natural arms, even with a level of Dermal Sheathing(which matches his natural skin color anyway and probably is designed to match the stuff on his cyberparts), Im sure that a clever opponent might notice and take called shots to them. Perhaps they would notice him favoring his legs; they might notice while his legs could kick a steel door several meters off it's hinges, he didn't use his arms, that while his speed and power with his arms when wielding his sword is quite good; isn't quite as fast as the running speed of his legs might let on. (I figure someone wearing body armor, it might be hard to tell even obvious limbs. Of course, if he's wearing a tank top his torso will be noticed as a bunch of white mechanics, or has on Raptor Leg enhancements. I forget if you can wear those...what were they, the Nightengale Ultra Feet of Doom or whatnot with boots.)

I'll have to talk to the GM or get more input on how combat might be resolved. So far the consensus says ''always use average Agility EXCEPT for a couple circumstances'', but im not sure if his leg agility(torso might) would come into play if he's shooting a gun.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 14 2008, 01:21 PM

Just one thing, cyberlimbs don't have a reaction attribute, so no head-dreaging occurs in that situation

Also, aiming in SR4 is so abstract that I wouldn't concern myself with getting shot in the head all the time.

Posted by: Rad Apr 14 2008, 02:47 PM

Well, my point about called shots is that they force cyberlimb users to use the stats for the body part targeted. You might have an OK body average to resist damage with, but if your actual body stat is significantly lower than your ware's, it's makes for a helluva Achilles' heel.

It basically makes called shots more effective on cyberlimb users.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 03:00 PM

In a way, perhaps. The called shot rules are pretty harsh, though, for someone to do it every time. Add this into the 'average' opponent(ok, read: Mook) having a die pool of what, 8 after smartlink? And it becomes even rougher. If i recall, the Called Shot rules are:

-1 Die, for +1 DV...isn't there a limit of +/-4 on that? This one goes under Target Vital.

There's the Bypass Armor shot, which is a - Die Pool Modifier equal to opponent's Armor. This one's a real SOB if someone has an Armor Jacket or better.

Then there is 'knock something out of grasp', which is a -4.

Granted, people can Take Aim right before to help ease this a bit. But even a DP of 10-11 isn't having an easy time

What would 'Target Non Cyber Bodypart' be under? Probably Target Vital, with the +/- of 1-4?

Bypass Armor would be really tough on someone with an Armor Jacket(8/6), Cyberlimb Armor(Averaged together. So if both legs and the torso had 2 points of armor each, but the arms none, that's still a net 1 point of armor after the average...), not to mention Dermal Sheathing(which DOES help protect non cyberlimbs too). Right there that's a -10, which is nasty. IMO, it might be better to try the bonus to DV roll, at least you have a chance of filling up the Stun meter with a few well placed shots.

So i don't know if i would go as far as to say ''Achilles Heel'', due to the difficulty of said shots...BUT is it a weakness that can be exploited at least a bit? Sure.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 03:42 PM

didn't the board of deeducation reach the consensus that cyber-limb-armor stacks directly some time?
or am i reopening old wounds here?
as for the sheath: if you can spare some money, go with the ruthenium polymer version, colour-change at your leisure, you can even make your arms and head look like your metal bits if you want to give the impression of not having any fleshy bits left O.o
or coat your cyber in ruthenium and make it look like your flesh and if you hit someone with that arm he's gonna feel as if he had met a sledge-hammer and the two of them had become very personal in a much too short time *g*

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 04:10 PM

The Ruthenium Sheath sounds pretty cool; I can keep it white, like my guy's skin, or whatnot. I kinda planned on making his cyberparts white and light gray, to match him but still look eerie.

My money right now though, sheesh. I admit i gotta do a bit of minmaxing here to see how I can average stats, etc. I just know as long as i get the Torso and Legs o' Doom i'll be happy.


I'll talk to my GM soon and find out the big list for the dice pools. He's going to have a LOT of differering die pools(Legs+Torso, Average, and Arms for anything that has to do with physical stats.)

Im still trying to make room for a bit more armor around. If i can get an armor of at least 1 or 2 on each piece, i think that will be good.

Another thing; Obvious cyberlimbs are, like, obvious. But what about if someone has on pants, boots, a shirt, and jacket? Is there a Perception modifier still, or are they effectively hidden?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 04:18 PM

Logically speaking people should not be able to tell what kinda legs you're running if you're not wearing tight pants or cut offs or a kilt or something like that . . ruleswise speaking? obvious is obvious, everybody and their mom will know at more or less first glance . . hell, even if you're sporting the synthetic legs and you're wearing FFBA and over that a lose fitting coverall and you spend time with people, they are going to notice that your Torso and Legs are fake . . in SR3 there were even rules for that i think . .

Posted by: Malicant Apr 14 2008, 04:21 PM

Yeas, it does, all the time. If you have all limbs maxed to 4 armor, you will walk around with 24 points of armor nekkid. It is kind of awesome, I guess

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 04:26 PM

if you're adofus you're running around with 6/6 Armor maximum on character Generation and more later on, so not that bad and cyber should be superior in such things i say . . and i like playing the tank, and i don't like averaging and doing more math than needed, so i like the simple addition of armor point for point ^^
so the guy with the torso and the legs, both being armored up to 4(hypothetically) would get +12 Armor and if he takes the dermal sheath for heads and arm(i still wait for rules that allow more than one head or more than two arms) level 3 that would give him +15/15 Armor?
not too shabby O.o
add to that Worn Armor and yes, you can soak pretty much most things without going the full brick roll

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 04:37 PM

Wow. Stacking armor-i might have to squeeze some more out of this.


Yeah, i recall some of the rules for noticing cyberware. In THEORY, if someone is wearing combat boots, baggy cargos, and a closed up leather jacket, you shouldn't be able to tell anything(so long as the limbs aren't Raptor legs or something), but there ARE still rules. i guess they might roll to notice if someone is sitting there some artifical metal muscle or something.

And i double thought on the Ruthenium. If i got that, my guy would have to run naked. Maybe i'll go for a suit if i want it that bad.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 04:43 PM

yeah so? if you remove Mr-Wang you have 1 Capacity free for something else you'll need on the Run and nobody will really realize that you're naked *gg*
but yeah, the suit is a good idea anyway ^^

Posted by: Malicant Apr 14 2008, 04:52 PM

Cybertorso does not remove the original Mr Wang, so no need to spend the room for a new wang.

Why are we talking about wang anyway?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 05:04 PM

if you get cyberlegs and need a stronger torso to keep the legs attached . . then what part gets switched out?
at least the part where the legs connect to your torso and that's generally more or less the groin area . .
also: we're talking about it 'cause it's funny some times and it's there in the books that Mr.Wang either gives or uses up 1 Capacity

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 05:20 PM

Yeah, i mean, erm...i'm not running Naked and i'm not removing 'Mr. Wang.'


Now, am i correct in saying that the Limb ratings can't be used above the Torso rating? Again, my buddy's got the book now but i recall reading something about Redlining a limb. Is this when you use, say, your arms and legs and your Torso doesn't match? I don't recall this in the old M&M book, but i recall hearing something about Redlining in SR4.


Im also still trying to figure out how these pools would work.


Athletics: Running, Jumping: Leg/Torso rating. This one's easy.
Climbing: Average. Holding up by arms: Would this be Arm/Torso average or just Arms? Swimming? Average but i don't think im even going to bother here. He's sinking like a stone anyway.

Unarmed Combat: Average agility to Attack...but Leg strength if kicking, Average or Arm strength if punching, since the Arms are attached to the Torso? (also, if he's kicking, would he actually roll the Leg Agility to attack? I asked this before but im still not positive. How would his Arm Agility play in if he was kicking or kneeing someone?

Likewise, would his Torso Agility really help his arms move faster? I can KIND of see the arms/torso getting average, but the arms and legs seem much more seperate. (For example, i don't think his leg strength would come into play when he fires his SMG in Burst mode or whatnot.)

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 05:36 PM

no no noo . . redlining is overclocking your legs with maxed out strength 11 to give you strength 22 for a second to make a REALLY grand jump . . but you'll be ruing it directly after, 'cause you get stun-damage when overloading your body like that . .
and no, i think it does not matter if the limbs are rated above the torso, the torso is just there to make sure the much stronger limbs don't get ripped out of the much weaker flesh . . even if the torso is weaker in strength, body and agility . . the torso is still fucking metal and will hold onto that limb as if it were the last lover he'll ever get . .

Again, Leg-Strength if kicking, Leg-Agility when kicking
Arm-Strength when punching, Arm-Agility when punching
if you simply do close combat without specifying wether you kick or punch the opponent, you average all of those . . let's say for biting or headbutting or body-slamming somebody or something like that . .

no, his torso does not help his arms move faster, the torso only allows the much faster and stronger limbs to be fitted onto the weaker flesh . . the torso really doesn't do anything in SR, aside from holding in your organs and connecting the other limbs more or less *g*
and no, leg-strength does not come into consideration when dealing with burst-fire, that's only arm-strength i'd say O.o

Posted by: Malicant Apr 14 2008, 05:41 PM

They don't cut away your junk, they just replace bones and certain muscles. That's how I understand it, anyways.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 06:20 PM

Ahh, gotcha on Redlining. So it's one of those 'only in emergency, and even then, maybe spend Edge instead' sort of instances.

As for the torso, i admit i was wondering alot on that. I could have sworn they had a thing where you can't have a cyberlimb rated over X without a Cybertorso. But after that, I always thought the limb couldn't be over Torso rating. In any case, Body would be a good thing to up for the torso, but im wondering how someone with a pair of Strength 11 arms and a Strength 5 Cybertorso would work. (I guess i was trying to use some common sense in the torso and limb combos.)

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 06:27 PM

the edge common sense did not make it into 4th ed either, so why bother? *g*
if you have that neato bioware that will let you not care about stun-damage, you will be fine with redlining . . just imagine doing a STR22 Power-Jump over a Building . . well, you will have to deal with the falling damage then, so i guess jumping on top of the building would be better *g*
and with the aug rules you don't need a cybertorso on a human for arms or legs with 9's across the board i think, but i ain't sure, i could be mixing something up here . .
but at least you don't need a Torso to go to your unmodified maximum, so for STR6 Limbs you won't need a Torso anymore

Posted by: krakjen Apr 14 2008, 09:48 PM

We can use dermal sheath on cyberlimbs?
I thought the lack of skin would prevent it...

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 09:49 PM

yeah, but the character in question has arms and head left all fleshy, so there it works again and there it gives it's full bonus again ^^

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 14 2008, 09:55 PM

hey, wait a second...I think i get some kind of price and/or Essence discount on my sheath, since i have 3 artificial limbs. Well, in SR3 you got both the essence and nuyen discount(wasn't it 5% per limb back then?). Hell, if that's the case i save a little cash and nuyen right there. And yeah, i figure i'd get the arms nice and covered up(can you even sheath your face? I mean, wouldn't that be...difficult? That's the one problem i had with the dermal plating, i didn't want to take the uber-massive penalties for having, like, armor grafted to my face. That's a bit hard to hide. )

Torso and legs can be covered, sure, but the obvious cyberskull/third eye in forehead/armorface i might keep away from.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2008, 10:40 PM

not sure ifg the discount rule made it over to SR4 from 3rd, but yeah, 5% for every full limb sounds about right . .
and with dermal sheath your whole body gets covered . . well, all your fleshy bits at least . .

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 15 2008, 02:19 PM

I've got a cyberlimb related question and rather than starting a new thread I thought I'd shanghai yours. Boo-yah! Anyway, I have Augmentation, read it, and am still unclear on one question. Is it possible to wirelessly hack a cyberlimb? To, say, make its owner choke himself or shoot himself or what not. If I understand what was stated, one has to go through the limb owner's commlink. Then what?

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2008, 02:26 PM

Hmm...I could actually wonder this, too. I THINK, if i recall reading somewhere here before, that hacking limbs is a rather difficult thing to do. There might be a few security devices you can put on them as well; but i'm curious to know the official things here, i'm not too Wireless Matrix saavy myself yet.

That would suck. The last thing i need is someone hacking my guy's commlink so he starts delivering 12P kicks to his own rear end. Or start sending him to attack teammates.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 15 2008, 02:27 PM

no, as far as i understood the wireless capabilities of limbs are only for diagnostic data-transfer and maybe a software/firmware upgrade or something like fine-tuning . . the wireless has no control over the moving parts of the limbs . .
and as soon as a GM starts with something like that i would kill every wireless in my close proximity and walk into one of those no-go-without-broadcast zones . .

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 02:30 PM

I'm pretty sure it's said somewhere that cyberware signal is set at 0 (so 3m), as it's only used for diagnostics/settings and stuffs and it's more than enough to communicate with the user's commlink/PAN.
You'd have to go through the commlink security....

Posted by: Squinky Apr 15 2008, 03:13 PM

Just popping in to say that I am pretty certain the discount rules from 3rd didn't make it into 4th.

But if you are really jonzing for more essence, drop some bp's into bio-compatibility and make your cyber a "cyber-suite".

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 03:21 PM

Wouldn't a player creating a custom cybersuite to feel his needs be seen as an obvious attempt at munchkinery ?

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2008, 03:51 PM

I guess it depends. I mean, if a player tries to, say, create a suite with Wired Reflexes 3, Muscle Replacement 2, 2 retractable spurs, 2 reaction enhancers, and ruthenium polymer skin with tricked out cybereyes and the thing cost 4.5 essence, then yeah.

But i think certain ones could be more doable. I guess if a player/gm works together to figure something out, it's cool. I just built mine from the ground up; it's a pretty powerful set of ware so i feel justified in letting it cost as much essence as it does.

But i am still tinkering around, especially if the discount didn't make it over. Having to pay full price for Muscle Toner and Augmentation(i want my guy's arms at least SOMEWHAT within the ballpark of 'catching up), and it's ONLY on his arms, hurts the wallet pretty bad. Guess it happens, though. Honestly, the torso and legs together aren't that bad at all; 4.5 essence for some really, really nice things in there. Ok, so that's like...75% of his essence, but still.

And i did take Biocompatibility. I had to.

It's the damned Wired Reflexes that are killing him. I want more passes, at least one extra one, and they don't have the nice Boosteds anymore. I suppose i could somehow fiddle with him to give him a ton of Edge that he can burn at whim for extra passes and get a couple Reaction Enhancers instead, or drugs...but he's already implant addicted, i don't need to get a Jazz addiction on top of it.

I gotta say, though, this is fun. Something about 'literally building a character' is pretty refreshing. I wrote a short story as well from his PoV when he ended up with these new toys, and thus implant addicted.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 04:08 PM

Don't forget there are actual rules to make cybersuites:

So no "I wanna be a cyberzombie" suite for 1000¥ and 1 point of essence

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 15 2008, 04:23 PM

I require anyone (including myself, the GM) who wants to invent a cybersuite come up with a short (comparable to what's in Augmentation) little bit describing an actual marketable purpose for the suite, which includes at least a passable explanation of why the suite contains what it does and doesn't contain other things that might fit with the stated purpose. Guideline: If it takes longer than 20 minutes you're putting too much work into it.

Anyone who does that has contributed to the game world sufficiently to pay for their suite-munchiness. (really, 10% isn't a game breaker)

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2008, 04:32 PM

So, if, for example, someone designed a cybersuite that was...ok, really powerful when it came to hitting with Clubs and Throwing(really strong cyberarms and torso), and Reaction Enhancers. And it turns out, it sounds like it would be actually ok for the Cyber Baseball League in the UCAS(extra reaction to catch? Batting power? Throwing power?). Would you let that slide into the game? (heh, slide into the game...no pun intended )

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 15 2008, 04:40 PM

Absolutely, great example. With just a touch more work I would allow that, and it would be great for someone who wants to make a sam who beats people and throws grenades. It needs a clever name, and a quick explanation of why it has what it does. (which you've pretty much already done) As an example, a GM might look at this and say, "but a baseball player suite should include the ability to run fast, why doesn't this?", so this write-up should probably include a note that while running fast would be nice, it would require adding massive amounts of cyberware to the suite so it's just not worth it, and if you hit well in the first place you can stroll casually anyway.

So what do we get? My game-world gets a new bit of flavor. This character has, in all probability, gained some really cool backstory stuff about being a ballplayer (or an aspiring one), possibly not, that's okay too. I have a player who is involved in the game and reading the rules. And he gets a little bit of a bonus to his character, and he gets to feel like he really pulled one over on the old GM. Everybody wins.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 04:41 PM

They would have to add the Louisville Slugger (or maybe Yankee Pitcher) Optimized Cyberlimbs then.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 15 2008, 04:45 PM

Sure, it would make sense. And the player probably wants it anyway.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 04:50 PM

I don't think IP augmentation would make sense though.
You're not gonna strike the ball twice...
Only reaction enhancers should go in that suite.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 15 2008, 05:00 PM

I agree. The point of the rule is to stop people from just cherry-picking exactly what cyberware they want for their character, slapping "suite" on it, and getting a free discount at chargen. Odds are, no one will get all of their cyberware in one big suite, but most heavy-cyber characters should be able to find a "theme" in their selection and be pretty close to making a good suite.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 15 2008, 05:36 PM

yeah, this is why i have more fun designing characters(for SR3 and utilizing mcmackies NSRCG3) than i have actually playing(because i don't get to play anymore)
you change one little minor thing . . and you can start over with half the design . . and if half the design has changed? well, you can change the rest again, and so on, and so on and so on ad nauseum *g*
i would make a cyber-suite with legs for people who had "accidents"
the torso would come it if the "accidents" were more severe or the person wants to do more than just take strolls in the park again . .
and if the basic design is there?
why the hell should optimized limbs not come in that suite? there's probably a good demand for it . .

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2008, 05:39 PM

The cool thing is, the ''Sports Suites'' could be really easy fits. I remember that recent Nike commercial(well, they play it over here, anyway), with the guys playing that basically are CG'd to have Raptor-style cyber legs, and they're running around the field really fast, jumping, doing fancy kicks on the ball, etc. (They catch with the commercial is ''until then...'' and then some kind of uber sports shoe.) It's a pretty cool commercial though, and i can easily see a Soccer player suite with a torso and the Raptor legs with the running and power augmentations.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 07:38 PM

You mean http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=20365?

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2008, 08:35 PM

Yes. That is awesome. Puma, too, not Nike. My bad there. But yeah, after seeing that, i have that perfect idea how someone with Kid Stealth/Raptor Legs would run, jump, and kick like. And it's pretty damn wicked. While i think my guy will stick to normal legs when wanting to stay low key, being able to switch out for those if the need comes up is made of awesome.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 08:54 PM

Yeah, that's definitely a good example for what it would look/move like.
The only thing I'm not sure is the double knee, I find it quite weird...

And for your guy, modular cyberlimbs ftw!

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 15 2008, 09:33 PM

Double wha? This isn't necessarily pointed at you, but for the general edification of anyone interested, a digitigrade leg (like a kid stealth leg, a cat rear leg, a goat rear leg, etc) has the same basic construction as a human leg (called plantigrade). The thigh, (from the hip to the knee) is shorter (we're talking proportionally, here) in a digitigrade, but that first joint down from the hip is still the knee. The lower leg, from the "forwards knee" to the "backwards knee" is also shorter. The "backwards knee" joint in the middle of a digitigrade leg is actually what a plantigrade considers their heel. The long part leading down to the ground on the digitigrade is, to a human, the part of their foot from their heel to the ball of the foot. And the part of the digitigrade leg on the ground is just the ball and toes. (hence the name)
So as long as you consider your "leg joints" to be hip, knee, ankle, and ball, the digitigrade leg has the exact same number of joints as you do. It's just like walking on your toes with your heels off the ground, and then completely changing the proportional lengths of the different bits. This changes all manner of mechanical advantage and has associated pros and cons. But if you can walk/jump/etc on your toes, then, fundamentally, you can walk with a digitigrade leg, so wrapping your brain around your shiny new legs wouldn't be quite as hard as it seems. Granted, it would take some serious getting used to, but all the familiar old structures are still there, and it's a means of locomotion you can already do with your regular legs, it just isn't easy or effective.

Most of you probably already knew that. Carry on.

Posted by: krakjen Apr 15 2008, 09:58 PM

Yeah, I DO know that.
And yes you're right, I even recounted the articulations to be sure and that's a digitigrade configuration alright.

Even then, I still feel there is something inherently wrong with those legs...
Maybe they are too big proportionally for a human being, I don't know.
I guess that's my anatomy class coming back to bite me in the ass.

Edit: Is those are the proportions of the raptor cyberlegs, a troll with it would be frigging huge!

Posted by: Cabral Apr 15 2008, 11:32 PM

I don't have a problem with player cherry picked suites. I wouldn't allow it at chargen, but afterwards, taking the time to integrate your implants and wait for them as a package. Smartlink is the new free printer.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 17 2008, 07:09 PM

anybody have any idea on how to go about more than 2 Arms or Legs by the way? <.< . .

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 17 2008, 07:17 PM

You mean, like a four armed or quad-walker guy? o.O

Im not sure about that one...i mean, you might be able to talk your GM into two torso holes, but i think you might need a Positive Quality: Quadradexterous or something.

never thought of that one. ''Billy, The Human Drone''.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 17 2008, 07:21 PM

i just read another WH40K Novel with the Souldrinkers . . Sarpedon specifically rang a Bell with me ^^

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2008, 07:05 PM

another question . . what happened to flex-hands?
why i am asking that question you wanna know?
'cause i thought about what kind of modifier modular-cyberlimbs would give on an escape-artist test O.o
i mean, how can handcuffs scare you any more, if you can just grab your left hand with the right hand, detach left hand from ore-arm, shake off handcuff on left arm and re-attach hand to forearm again? if needed be, do the same on the other arm . . automatic success?

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 19 2008, 07:08 PM

Flex hands still exist, but i forget the exact modifiers they give to what, im pretty sure Escape Artist is still one of them.

Grip-Feet are in too, and those seem pretty cool. I know they help with Climbing and the like.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2008, 07:09 PM

yeah, i know about the grip-feet, but what about the modifier for escaping if you can just gecko your limbs off? *g*

Posted by: Rad Apr 19 2008, 07:27 PM

Well, just because you get the arms off your body, doesn't mean you can get the cuffs off your arms. The forearm isn't usually any narrower than the hand, so you might be stuck having to choose between keeping your arms and getting away...

>pictures a crazed street sam swinging his modular arm like a morningstar from the cuffs still attached to his wrist<

...if you had a modular hand though, it could work nicely--but you might have to make a check to remove it with the cuffs on.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 19 2008, 07:40 PM

You know, im thinking flex-hands might do it.

I myself have crazy natural hand joints; granted im a 5'4'' woman whose not all that big but ive been actually able to squeeze and manuver my natural hands out of cuffs before(and ive done it as a party trick. ) They were real cuffs; and the trick is naturally to get your hand contorted to the size of your wrist; the thumb joint is the hardest part. But i can say that it's somethign that's difficult to do discreetly, they will more than likely see you moving if they are watching you.

Now, i don't like to cross SR/RL over too much; but i'd say yeah, a modular hand can get you out, and Im thinking flex hands, which are probably alot better than my own natural hands(and gods knows im not the only one who can do this), should be able to squeeze you out of cuffs rather efficently.

Now, when you start getting to those heat-fused constraints things are a little more difficult, no doubt. But id still say someone with flex hands would get a bonus and modular would still go for it.