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Posted by: Method Apr 16 2008, 12:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnAQw0W-Pkc&feature=related

Must have run out of edge...

Posted by: HullBreach Apr 16 2008, 12:40 AM

Nice!

Man I cant wait for the day when some dude who does D1 or Formula D competitions gets chased, that'll make for some awesome footage.

For those of you who aren't motorheads, those are drifting leagues.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 12:44 AM

Frag.

Now I can't dispute how "Easy" it is to recover from a PIT manouver.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 16 2008, 12:53 AM

If it's the clip i think it is, the guy was a professional stunt driver.

Posted by: Fix-it Apr 16 2008, 01:32 AM

bah. try a Rally or Off road driver. those guys have some serious skills.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 16 2008, 05:09 AM

hehe... that was amusing. I'm glad a lot of police departments have suspended high speed chases though, seems like an awful lot of trouble to get one guy in a vehicle that can very easily become and airborne weapon.

Posted by: Critias Apr 16 2008, 05:13 AM

So why blame the cops for that fact, instead of the criminal who (a) did something to get chased for, (b) then instigated the high speed chase? I don't think flooring it should be a get out of jail free card.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 16 2008, 05:32 AM

Well the phrase "Cure is worse than the disease" comes to mind. Ending a bad situation by pushing a car into oncoming freeway traffic is not my idea of a very effective policy of keeping the peace.

Also, who said they get out of jail free? If reporters can follow them than I tend to think that FLIR mounted police helo's can probably do a reasonable job as well.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 16 2008, 06:59 AM

Australia suspended high speed chases if there is the potential of injuring civilians and instead switches to helicopters, roadspikes and barriers.

Edit: Yeah, the actual defination is something like the threat to the public is greater if the chase is continued than abandoned, so it's higher if chasing an armed offended.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 16 2008, 07:02 AM

We use road blocks usually, and cop cars don't drive too fast after perps (unless there's a serious danger for others like a fleeing murderer or so).

Is it really true that cops have to stop you to write a ticket too in the US? And simply taking a picture of your car with license plate with a radar camera is not enough?

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 16 2008, 07:24 AM

You know.. that's an interesting question. You can get tickets from running red lights and speeding if the right all seeing eyes see you.

But cops still pull people over. Out of habit maybe?

Posted by: Method Apr 16 2008, 07:27 AM

I'm sure it varies widely among jurisdictions.

Posted by: Critias Apr 16 2008, 07:37 AM

I wouldn't say it's "habit" so much as "because during a manual stop the potential exists for further violations to be unearthed." An awful lot of drug arrests, drunk driving arrests, etc, start as a routine traffic stop. An awful lot of officer fatalities start that way, too, though. So, in my book, it's a checkmark in the "brave enough to do the job, even if a fancy camera can handle the job instead" category, for the cops still out there stopping folks when they don't have to.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 16 2008, 09:09 AM

Ah did forget about the other big reasons for traffic stops. I do recall a great deal of serious criminals getting had out for running a red light or not having a working left turn signal.

Anyone sprung this sort of thing on their runners? Just to make em sweat?

Posted by: Fortune Apr 16 2008, 09:52 AM

Yep. Much fun!

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 16 2008, 10:02 AM

"PIT" is, if the cop shows from left-pondia that we get over here in Airstrip One are to be believed, stands, supposedly for "Precision Immobilisation Technique". It is to laugh. What the UK motorway cops do is box the car being chased. One car gets ahead and gets in the runner's way at a distance of about a foot. Another car comes from behind and boxes it in so it can't brake and get any distance. Then both police drivers brake hard and steer to keep the evading vehicle between them. *That*'s precision. If there are three cars available, they'll box the fleeing vehicle against the central barrier on a motorway, too.

I suppose the chances of a pursued car shooting at surrounding cops is higher over there, but don't see a great deal of additional security in just clipping a wing.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 16 2008, 10:05 AM

its as if it was taken straight out of a GTA game...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 12:08 PM

Yeah, I love how the cops "Stopped performing High Speed Persuits" in a lot of areas.

Like they did mine.

Which doesn't explain how a cop car hit a minivan with a soccer team and the soccer mom at 90 km/h in the neighbourhood next to the Downtown core a year after they "Stopped".

But that's just the cops from my home town...

Posted by: nezumi Apr 16 2008, 04:54 PM

Yeah, we generally require the cop verify who the driver is, but it varies from state to state. In Maryland, they don't charge you with speeding as such, but with something stupid like failing to control your car. So if you're in someone else's car, or the company car, the bill gets sent to the owner, not to you. In DC, they don't believe their part of the United States, except wherein they get to complain about stuff, so they just charge the driver with whatever they want.

Posted by: Zak Apr 16 2008, 07:07 PM

But seriously, why are the police cars endangering the traffic by bumping into his car in the first place?
Is that for the pure entertainment value for the media?

I never got that part of US culture.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 07:09 PM

Because "BOY HOWDY AIN'T IT FUN??? Like dem Dukes Show!"

Northern Ontarian cops aren't that much better.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Apr 16 2008, 07:34 PM

It's because bumping the car like that puts them out of control, and out of commission. You'll note that each time the cops nailed that mustang, it was when there weren't any other cars around. They usually do their damnedest to bump the vehicle in a way that will send it crashing *away* from other vehicles. The vehicles behind them would have seen what was going on and slowed/stopped with plenty of room. It's far less dangerous than shooting out tires or just waiting for the guy to crash.

Plus, it's good for the media. Win-Win!

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 16 2008, 09:00 PM

makes me think of lone star having their own tv crews and do their damnedest to look good while recording...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 09:32 PM

And you better bet that Ares-affiliated news stations are trying their darnedest to play the ones where the Star look like idiots!

It's a ratings game in a lot of ways!

After all, things like this is how Desert Wars, Combat Cycle, and Urban Brawl started, and became big money!

This post brought to you by the Winnipeg Black Devils, who are the odds on favourite this year for Light Infantry Skirmishing at Desert Wars!

Posted by: Aaron Apr 16 2008, 11:33 PM

"Hey, Janice, shooting the guy in the leg after he surrendered was pretty brutal."

"I don't care. We can fix it in post."

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 17 2008, 12:35 AM

Oof. "High Speed Pursuit" is only one of the reasons cops speed, though. The other one is being in a hurry, which sometimes means "violent crime in progress" and sometimes means "I feel like driving fast and I am a cop".

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 12:48 AM

Got it in one, Chummer.

And Peace Officers (Such as Lone Star!) are even worse!

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 17 2008, 12:48 AM

"and i get to use the siren!"

Posted by: Fortune Apr 17 2008, 12:51 AM

I guess 'racing to the donut shop' falls under the last category, because I have personally seen quite a number of these involving 2 or more cop cars, full siren and all. I shit you not! I even got out of a sure-thing ticket once because of one.

Posted by: Fix-it Apr 17 2008, 12:52 AM

there've been a lot of development on trying to stop a moving vehicle. CO2 Engine stalling, EMP disk launchers.

nothing yet works.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 12:56 AM

We'll observe Nas' technique for getting a car to stop near the end of my latest story. Coming out... Whenever!

See my Singature for details! (His story is the second one.).

Posted by: b1ffov3rfl0w Apr 17 2008, 01:39 AM

Well, the laser space frisbees may not work, but the whole Grid Guide thing should cut down on high-speed pursuits in 2070. Given that most crimes are not in fact committed by skilled professionals with good planning, LoneStar or whoever controls traffic could just tell the car to stop and expect that it would work much of the time.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 01:43 AM

GridGuide would also make things hard on Shadowrunners as well, who are more likely to be better prepared for the eventually inevitable high-speed persuit (If for nothing else but because, damnit, the Rigger demanded one!).

Wow, look at that, suddenly well spaced out cars are tightening up, and slowing down, so the 'Runners either plow through traffic, or are shifted along to that nice, handy Lone Star Road Block!

That is, when GridGuide and Lone Star are on Good Terms. When not, wow, look at that, the 'Runners get nice, clear traffic all the way to the Barrens!

Posted by: Critias Apr 17 2008, 04:48 AM

Has it ever occured to you that maybe they do it to stop the bad guy and do their job?

Posted by: Method Apr 17 2008, 05:01 AM

I'm starting to sense some trends around here between this and the "Walmart Guns" thread...

Anyway, I'm with Critias on this one (again). Until there's a better way to stop fleeing criminals, high speed pursuit seems a helluva lot better than "Golly gee shucks. That dangerous criminal just isn't going to cooperate and pull over. I guess I'll just have to let him go and hope I run into him the next time he robs a convenience store/rapes a college coed/carjacks somebody".

When local law enforcement can buy Predator aerial surveillance drones, then I'm all about letting the d-bag go and hitting him with a Hellfire rocket when he gets home. Of coarse, home could be an apartment complex full of women and children. Certainly nothing dangerous about sending a SWAT team in to get the guy, right?

A bird in the hand...

-------

Edit: Oh yeah, and back on topic- GridGuide and aerial surveillance drones would certainly make life difficult for a shadowrunner. I can see where high speed car chases in 2070 would be inherently more violent than RL now-a-days.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 17 2008, 06:25 AM

Police forces in other places do think they have a better solution, and have spent some resources pitching that 'better solution' to the people. The people obviously feel the better solution is better too because they don;t complain about it. Obviously people in the US feel it's not a better solution. It's a debate that can go round and round.

However, the UK/AU techniques would be logically extended to 2070, because the strategies that the police in UK/AU/Euro zone us (get ahead of the criminal via radio, deploy barricades and roadspikes, use helicopters to track) are much more powerful in a world with more drones and survelliance. You can have robots manually deploy roadspikes, and UAVs track the driver, no problem.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 17 2008, 06:37 AM

Could you use an industrial size HERF gun to stop a car?

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 17 2008, 07:08 AM

Nah, you'd just deploy a swarm of hunterkiller drones to crawl into his engine bay and cut the fuel line. Less likely to screw passersby as the car will identify itself via RFID.

Posted by: Adarael Apr 17 2008, 07:33 AM

I think he may be questioning the method of action rather than the purpose of that action.

I mean, if in an age of internet, cell-phone, and radio-capable police, there's GENERALLY not too much reason to do a high-speed pursuit. It's far easier and more efficient to just tell Bob down the way to pull out some spike strips and prep to lay them on 12th, 13th, and Main streets if the car gets close. I know that's pretty much SOP for the California Highway Patrol if a chase approaches dangerous speeds. I think their number is 95 mph?

Of course, I admit, the CHP probably have more spike strips than the average state troopers.

Posted by: Critias Apr 17 2008, 07:46 AM

No, read his post. He was questioning their purpose. "Is it for the pure entertainment value," blaming it on American culture, etc, etc. 'Cause, y'know, we're all just a bunch of rootin'-tootin' action movie star cowboys, over here in the States, and the cops pile into their cars and risk their lives going triple-digit speeds because it looks fun, not because it's their job, or to try and catch a fleeing criminal, or anything.

And it's a pretty old video (~4 years, IIRC). Most parts of the country have updated chase policies, and come up with all sorts of fancy new toys to use, since it was filmed.

Regardless, it seems silly to me to place the blame for high speed chases on the cops, rather than on the fleeing criminals who instigate them. You can dislike high speed chases -- I do, I know the cops do, I know most citizens do -- but blaming the cops for them, not the bad guys who run in the first place (after commiting a crime in the first place), and saying the cops are the one who endanger the civilians on the streets with a chase is just ridiculous.

Posted by: ArkonC Apr 17 2008, 08:21 AM

While it is true that cops aren't the cause for these chases, they can stop them by not going along with them...
I know some cops who have clearly stated that high speed chases are the stupidest thing since "How to learn French" was translated in French...
They say that in the heat of the moment, catching the guy seems more important and they needlessly endangere themselves and others...
So having a No-High-Speed policy would be good and just because you don't do high speed doesn't mean you don't do pursuit...

Now especially in 2070 this should be true, with all the flying drones that can do the actual pursuit...

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 17 2008, 12:14 PM

There are problems with just letting the skyspy track the perp.

1) they can't always be on station, so the groundhogs have to keep the perp in sight until the flyboys can get overhead.

2) it can be relatively easy to evade aerial surveillance if it isn't backed up by people on the ground.

3) the flyboys probably lack the capacity to stop the runner alone, so if the ground troops can't keep up, they may be able to leave the jurisdiction of the pursuing force without any chance of being stopped.

Chase cars have their place, but are dangerous and if alternative methods that are less dangerous can be used, they should be.

But PITs like that? Reckless lack of training and commitment, I call it. The objective of catching a perp is to put them *under control* not knock them out of it. If those several police cars had been properly trained, the first contact would have been the last and there would have been no spin into oncoming traffic.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 12:18 PM

I still say it's because most cops feel sorry for Rosco, and really want to "Git dem Duke Boys!"

Posted by: wanderer_king Apr 17 2008, 12:36 PM

I think its cause in part here we have some heavier cars than most other nations..... trying to box in and force a 60's steel frame Mustang won't work. Those cop cars are robust and impact resistant, but if a higher mass vehicle makes the move on them first, they're gonna be the ones out of control. By approaching from behind and impacting the rear of the vehicle, they reduce the things a driver could do to avoid the box or continue the chase.

Now about shadowrun, I wonder how many star agents have gotten used to the GridGuide being under their control? What about vehicles that aren't on the guide?

Posted by: Aaron Apr 17 2008, 12:45 PM

I'm fairly certain that the best tool for law enforcement in a car chase isn't a faster car or an aerial asset, but a radio.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 12:48 PM

"Can't outrun a Motorola."

Posted by: wanderer_king Apr 17 2008, 12:52 PM

No, but if you don't have current intel on their position, they can change directions when no one is looking.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 17 2008, 12:52 PM

Vehicles not running on Grid Guide probably get engulfed by a force 6 plant spirit and dragged off the road.

But seriously, that must set off all kinds of alarms. Besides, doesn't grid guide essentially own the roads? Driving on a grid guided road without grid guide might be considered trespassing. Or theft of services.

Posted by: wanderer_king Apr 17 2008, 01:07 PM

Yes, but how quickly would it be detected? If at all? Grid Guide can't just be pressure sensitive or It would report motorcycles on the road everytime a troll went to stuffershack. In particular, my cars have been modded to modern engines, modern sensors, modern comp with no WiFi and a DataJack. How does the guide detect objects that don't report to it or broadcast signals to it?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2008, 01:09 PM

Or draw electricity from it in the case of Multi-Fuel Vehicles?

GridGuide isn't the end-all/be-all it advertises for perfect traffic control. Only for those people that buy it's services.

If you don't subscribe to GridGuide, you don't get the Up-To-Date Traffic Control system that ensures you get to your destination as quickly as possible. But not quite as quickly as the person that bought the Deluxe package GridGuide, who gets priority lane changes, and three free roadside assistance calls every year.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 17 2008, 01:10 PM

Presumably Grid Guide would probably supplement their assortment of pressue plates/MAD scanners with video feeds and a simple program that matches the two together.

Grid Guide doesn't cover everywhere though, so turning off a freeway might be all it takes to solve the problem of "Grid Guide is telling you to stop running".

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 17 2008, 03:05 PM

reminds me of the chace scene in the first gits movie, where i could have sworn the barricade was autodeployed...

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 17 2008, 03:09 PM

We already have Traffic Master, here in the UK, which covers nearly every road with simple IR traffic-volume-and-speed sensors which are good enough to count how many vehicles go by and what speed they're doing, and send it back to a central control room which generates road condition reports from the data.

GridGuide doesn't really need MADs and pressure plates if it's got those cameras, except where such things are easier to protect from vandalism than cameras on poles. It *does* need realtime information on where its customers are, and I'd expect that to be GPS sensors in the vehicle and Matix 2.0 transmission to city control. I can imagine that a middling-low priority for the GG routing algorithms would be to make getting around awkward for non-GG customers, spacing traffic out to make a string of cars passing a non-customer trying to turn out into the main road as long as possible without leaving a big enough gap to jump into...

Posted by: Zak Apr 17 2008, 03:32 PM

Dude chill I'm not really blaming cops. They do their jobs and they follow orders and protocol.
It has been pointed out how risky it is to stop a car with that tactic and there are saver methods. It is however not the individual cops fault, if someone is to blame it's the policy makers.

Yet it amazes me how much coverage those chases get in the media. They have a certain entertainment value (together with other reality shows). Doing needlessly risky things and showing them on TV seems to be a part of US culture (please correct me in case I am mistaken). Ofc it is also part of other cultures, but they usually lack high speed pursuits so I couldn't make fun of them in this context.

And seriously, don't get all worked up over things you read into my post.

Posted by: Method Apr 17 2008, 05:01 PM

I find it rather insulting to assume that US police never use radios, road blocks or spike strips and that they use PIT maneuvers because of a "reckless lack of training".

I am 9000% sure that if a road block or spike strip are available and appropriate they are considered first line options. Obviously they aren't always available. And both have inherent dangers for the police officers, especially http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFuqIiYqLhw. And oh look, the cop in the video is an American!! BTW, the most popular spike strip system used in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_strip, call the http://www.fedsig.com/industry_solutions/law_enforcement/stinger.php, is made in the US.

And for the record, the PRECISION Immobilization Technique (or PIT maneuver) is a highly technical driving skill that police are taught at advanced driver training schools. And oh look- it was invented in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver. How enlightened.

</generalization> please.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 18 2008, 09:10 AM

It's still crap and completely misnamed. Just because something was invented in Germany doesn't make it good.

Posted by: Critias Apr 18 2008, 09:31 AM

No, but it does mean a German shouldn't be giving us crap about "reckless American car bashing" stuff, or whatever. The fact it was used by American cops in the video we just saw doesn't mean it's just some zany cowboy bullshit.

Posted by: Zak Apr 18 2008, 11:00 AM

So some cops on the streets stop cars in a way I consider reckless (btw, that cowboy image was something you brought into the discussion, don't put that on me) and the media is covering it. I make fun of that. But since you and those cops are from the US I have no right to make fun of it because it insults you?

Awesome.

And I have even less rights to make fun of it because some german invented it and I happen to be a german?

I don't think so. Nor can you insult me with that.
I am not responsible for what happend in that video and neither are you. (If you are personally involved that would be a different matter)

You read more into my post than I actually wrote. You got insulted by my lack of understanding (and a minor pun) for covering dangerous and potentially lethal action on TV. Your country and your media is something I make fun of, just like any other nations media and nation if I think it's funny or wrong. Patriotism is cool if it works for you, but please don't jump on anything slightly insulting to another US citizen or regulation.



I never claimed that. And I agree: [/generalization]

Posted by: CanRay Apr 18 2008, 11:33 AM

Actually, I think I did with my comparison to most cops on those videos to Sheriff Rosco P. Coltrane goin' after "Dem Duke Boys!".

Which is the image I got from some of those self-same videos where the officers are wearing Cowboy hats.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Apr 18 2008, 03:26 PM

no, but the multilayered police force does provide some interesting integration challenges that don't exist in the much flatter structure of the UK or AU police forces. Also, I never said reckless lack of training.

But there is a fairly clear difference in approach to pursuits in UK/AU, most of europe and the USA. It's really interesting, and I don;t think anyone is claiming the US police force is radically (or any) better so it's an open question why this is so. It's also why most of those stupid 'best police chases 13432' are from the USA.

Posted by: Method Apr 18 2008, 05:48 PM

The "reckless lack of training" comment was by Shiloh.

And you're right about the challenges of integrating our police structure in the US. I think people might forget that the US is A.) almost 3 times the size of the entire European Union, B.) just about as culturally diverse and C.) has about 14 times the population of Australia. According to our Department of Justice we have an estimated 17,784 law enforcement agencies, spread out across the federal, state, and local levels of government.

I personally think the lack of integration is a big part of our crime problem, but again anyone who makes an overly generalized statement about how police do anything in the US is almost guaranteed to be wrong.

EDIT (a feeble attempt to get back on topic): now that I think about it, this lack of integration is probably a lot like SR would be with all the different corporate, private and governmental police forces working with, around and against each other. Yet another explanation of how shadowrunners could exist in a pervasive culture of surveillance and "security".

Posted by: CanRay Apr 18 2008, 05:57 PM

The US needs something like the Mounties to allow for interrelations or dealing with issues over multiple jurisdictions, and against Federal Criminals!

Oh, right, US Marshal Service. Never mind.

Posted by: Method Apr 18 2008, 06:10 PM

And FBI.

Posted by: HullBreach Apr 18 2008, 09:01 PM

And the DEA, and the IRS, and the BATFE, and ICE, and the list goes on and on. Honestly, we should just bring all of the enforcement arms of the alphabet agencies under the FBI if for no other reason than effieciency and elimination of duplication of effort.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 18 2008, 09:08 PM

Just pay attention to the lession that the RCMP learned the hard way...

Don't forget to copyright the uniform!!!

*Snears at the MouseCo for owning the Mountie Dress Uniform*

Posted by: Critias Apr 19 2008, 04:52 AM

Alright, listen. In the interest of explaining where I'm coming from, I'll break it all down. I'll admit, first, that I've been a little cranky around Dumpshock for the last few days, because (it seems) I've spent an awful lot of time on here defending America, American firearms, and now American cops, from a couple of German guys. I've got nothing against German guys (or I'd hate much of my own family), but if I'm being defensive lately it's because it seems like German guys have something against me and my home.

You started with this:

Now, maybe because English is your second language, you don't realize that there are a few things being implied by this statement.

"Bumping into his car" is to blame for the "police cars endangering the traffic," when that sentence is broken down. You're making it sound as if they're (a) not consistently waiting until they're on a stretch of road that's fairly clear of regular citizens before risking their lives by engaging the bad guy in a high-speed pursuit manuever, and (b) just ramming into him willy-nilly, with no idea what they're doing. These guys aren't out there swigging beer, shouting YEEEE-HAW, and just bashing into some random car in the middle of a high-traffic zone.

Second, the entire "is that for the pure entertainment value for the media" is a ridiculous question, and you know it. No police agency in the world does something dangerous for no reason, much less specifically just because it'll look cool for a camera. Hollywood? Sure. They'll make movie-star-cops do all sorts of stupid shit that doesn't make any sense, say that the film was based on a true story (which just means they got a name right), and then advertise the hell out of something. But real life cops, of any nationality, don't risk their lives just to look cool on a video for Youtube.

"I never got that part of US culture," with a lack of clarification attached, leaves it unclear which portion of your statement it is you're attributing solely to US culture. The dangerous yahoo cops bashing around rush hour traffic for shits and giggles (the overall subject of your post) is the most easily assumed statement.

And so, put all together in one thought, your initial post made it clear that you think American cops are stupid and brash, prone to using excessive and unecessary force just to look cool, and willing to gleefully risk the lives of every civilian in sight while doing so.

In counterpoint, it was mentioned that the PIT manuever was originally a German technique.

As such, I found it interesting that all the media-junkie-American-cops-bash-cars-around-for-no-good-reason stuff you were spouting came from them using a police car-control manuever of German design, not American. That being the case, all your "bumping into his car" and "endangering other traffic" has nothing at all to do with American cops, except for the fact that it happens to be American cops doing it right there in that short video segment, and everything to do with them adopting a German police technique. As such, if anyone is endangering traffic by using some silly "bumping into his car" manuever, as implicated in my last post, it is the German police (not the American).

So if you're going to bash anyone for the PIT manuever being dangerous, bash your country's police force for coming up with it in the first place. Not my country's cops for trying to use your move and it not working out real well in this instance, and the whole thing being caught on film (thanks to the First Amendment) by a news chopper.

There. Did I spell it all out clearly enough for everyone?

Posted by: Fix-it Apr 19 2008, 05:34 AM

we could say the same thing about the armed forces. it might save on procurement bullshit.

/stupid navy and their F-18s.