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Posted by: Synner667 Apr 16 2008, 06:50 PM

Hello folks,

Continuing my reading of the SR v4 rulebook, I got to the bit about false IDs..
"This means falsifying an identity involves massive amounts of electronic manipulation and false data propagation" and "Only an extremely well-connected expert [such as an exceptionally good hacker or professional forger] possess the resources to pull off a scam of these proportions. In fact whole organisations exist solely for the purpose of creating false identities" is what it says [pg 260]..
..Which would infer it's a difficult and time consuming process.

Yet, the best available is only ¥6000 - that's gotta be some mistake, surely ??

I would think a costing of (level x level) x¥1000 would be more sensible.


Thoughts ??

Posted by: kzt Apr 16 2008, 06:52 PM

Considering how worthless they are (calculate the mean checks to failure) I'd suggest they they are overpriced. And over fluffed.

Posted by: masterofm Apr 16 2008, 07:17 PM

Lone Star officer: "Do you have a license to carry that pistol? What about that mill spec comlink? What about that cyberware? What about your vehicle? What about those combat drugs, or those awakened drugs? AP rounds? Do you have a license for each one?"

You kind of have to buy quite a bit of fake licenses to back up what you are carrying as well.

Posted by: Chibu Apr 16 2008, 07:30 PM

even in SR2/3 the fake ID system never worked right. We always just use it as detail, but don't let it bog us down.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 07:32 PM

We had a system that we started using in Star Wars. We called it, "The Non-Jedi Force Wave".

Basically, it was a fair bit of cash attached to the ID.

Surprisingly, the money was never there when we got the ID back, and there were no more issues about permits.

Just make sure you use the right amount of money, and type.

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 16 2008, 07:36 PM

"Non-Jedi Force Wave"

Hahaha, we always just used to call it the Shrinking Wallet Syndrome.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 16 2008, 07:39 PM

Sorry, in-joke there. We got tired of the Jedi's Player trying to find the rules for his Force Power (He had moved, and was visiting, so had forgotten how it worked), so we just did that.

It worked a lot better than expected, and became a staple.

And, now back to Shadowrun!

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 16 2008, 07:39 PM

The system for fake SIN's " licenses is pretty damn shitty, as they rarely last long, even against minimal security. As such, I only ever have a half-assed one simply to avoid annoyance's from going around town.

If you want them to be more useful, I would suggest the following system overriding the BBB (which I will also suggest to my GM if I ever remember...):
Scanner rolls Rating x 2 against a threshold of the fake' rating. This makes them much more reliable, and even useful. A rating 6 even has a good chance to stand up against high end scanners (although rating 1 is still mostly worthless).

You could use the above rule for all scanners if you so choose (maglocks, biometrics, etc.)

If you feel this makes them to good, simply switch it so the SIN rolls rating x 2 against the threshold - still more useful than the BBB version.

As for them being underpriced - not really. Considering how easy they are to bust, they are not worth that much - and remember, a rating 3 costs nearly as much as, if not more, than Joe Average's monthly wage.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 16 2008, 07:45 PM

We're currenty having system roll rating against the SIN's rating as the threshold. With one change, that its an extended test, so in high alert statuses the system might make 2 or 3 rolls on an ID before letting it go past as clean. This allows rating 6 SIN's be really effective except against high rating systems running on high alert. And yet your SIN rating 1 will get by for a decent amount of time, in low security areas. We haven't done it yet, but I plan on if the area has no alerts or security warnings, if a SIN fails, the system will double check it (reroll its scan) if it fails to flag as Fake the second time then they'll be stopped for questioning, otherwise it'll just be a minor footnote in the files. How many times have you had to swipe a credit card or something 5-6 times before it read correctly, they didn't haul you off for a stolen card just because it errors the first time.

So I guess I have an Extended Test in High Alert status, and an Extended Fail test in Extremely Low alert status. We'll scan it 3 or 4 times, before we question its validity, all we really want is the money you owe us for your soycaffe.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Apr 16 2008, 08:02 PM

...I for one am glad the costs came down. Particularly since they tend to be more of a necessity just to get though day to day life. In previous editions, about the only time we ever were concerned about fake IDs was for infiltrating a facility. Often in this case, we were either given temporary cover ID sticks or referred to a forger by the Johnson .

Of course back then it was easier to maintain anonymity as you didn't need to ping a "personal transponder" signal (your commlink) everywhere you went and everyday transactions could be performed using certified cred or in some locales (like London or the CAS) even hard currency.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 16 2008, 08:04 PM

Not a bad idea. Looks like I have two possible suggestions to make for the GM. If I ever remember...

Posted by: masterofm Apr 16 2008, 08:18 PM

What about instead of linking rank to difficulty you link it to what the SIN can do for a runner. Kind of like how contacts are scaled. Maybe a r6 SIN says you are some bigshot high rolling corp exec, but if you don't back it up threw RP and money you will get found out pretty quickly. An r1 fake sin will probably be just some Joe on the street working at a job that pays less then minimum wage. Something like that might be useful in treating fake SINs instead of having to deal with scanners and yah da bla. That way it removes some of the junk that is dealt with for a SIN, and at the same time takes care to construct a workable SIN. Eventually if people look hard enough they will find that your SIN is fake, but generally no one has time to boil over a SIN for over an hour.

Posted by: Larme Apr 16 2008, 08:23 PM

First of all, to the OP: STOP TRYING TO NERF EVERYTHING DAMN IT

Second of all, 6k is not an inconsiderable amount of money. Remember that nuyen has suffered approximately a 75% deflation in SR4. That's no longer chump change like it used to be.

Also, I think that even though there's a lot that needs to be done to make a fake ID, it isn't just a few nerds in basements ginning them up one at a time. There are probably very many organized crime groups that have large scale fake ID operations, which enables them to do a lot of volume and thus lower prices. Since ID is pretty much everything in the wireless enabled world, and lots of people don't have them and can't even get them, fake IDs are going to be big business.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 17 2008, 12:04 AM

It occurs to me that you could avoid his nerfs by not having him as a GM.

Posted by: Adam Apr 17 2008, 02:57 AM

Admin post: Synner667, please stop putting extra "-" characters at the front of your threads. A useful subject is good enough.

Posted by: Larme Apr 17 2008, 03:31 AM

That cannot abate my RAGE!

Posted by: Cantankerous Apr 19 2008, 08:54 AM

Keeping in mind that way back when the typical Lone Star Patrolman had a checker that was little better than an eyeball scan and guess, a Rating 3 stick was usually enough to then be able to shmooze your way out of any "irregularities" questions with Negotiation skill and the fact that if you were actually damned well dumb enough to go skating around a AA zone with a Panther Canon clutched in one obvious cyberarm and a had spinning blades on the end of the other one, then you had EARNED any problems you got, the system worked ok in the earlier editions.

The thing most GMs seem to somehow forget is that there had better be a good reason why Mr. Lone Star is hassling "Citizen X" in a AA zone...or said cop will end up spending his days as a crossing guard for an all Trog school in an E zone where that badge equals a target. Cops have to be careful not to offend in such zones, so have to feel they have good defensible reasons for bothering Mr. Rothchildes bodyguard....yet again!!!

It's all about balance and verisimilitude. If the Players are acting like morons, they are treated that way. If they are acting bright, you treat them THAT way. Even in 4th edition this can't have changed much.


Isshia

Posted by: weblife Apr 19 2008, 09:10 AM

Fake SIN are expensive... In our current campaign we even had to allow being able to upgrade existing fake SINs, since none of us could afford to buy up straight to 6.

Hel, I have a rating 4 as my best I think.

We pretty much add Edge when its tested, to be sure not to get caught.

But I like the idea of changing either scanner or SIN to a threshold, its really annoying to blow Edge on the roll, only to have the scanner glitch and say "Please try again".

And by the way, that makes no sense from a RL perspective. If I had to flash my card twice at the door at work, a technician would be on his way to fix it sooo fast.

Posted by: Tobias Apr 19 2008, 09:21 AM

Depends on the level I've stood outside swiping for 5 minutes before somebody just swiped me in. This problem wasn't fixed and sometimes still happens. ¬¬

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2008, 11:26 AM

I want to work there!

The place I've worked with swipe cards, everyone had to swipe in, and three swipes was the MINIMUM.

1000+ people working there, shift changes on the hour ranging from a dozen to a few hundred, with two door that only allowed one at a time each. Not to mention lunch/breaks in the Mall because there was no in-house cafeteria aside from some vending machines that had sandwiches in them from when Diefenbaker was PM (Which is odd, because the place has only been in business for only eight years, and the storefront was a Sears before that!), and cola machines that were always empty a half-hour after the guy filled 'em up once a week.

That was close to five years ago, and, from what I've heard, the request to get the door repaired is still pending.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 19 2008, 03:55 PM

The trick to getting the door fixed faster is to burn out the swipe lock. A couple of wires and a motorcycle battery should do the trick. Then they'll either fix the reader or unlock the door.

Posted by: Kerberos Apr 19 2008, 04:26 PM

Yeah, and I just don't have enough money to get my SIN to level 4 so I can trade in for one hit, but then I figure one of the advantages to working for the Star is I get licences on my legal SIN.

Posted by: weblife Apr 19 2008, 08:26 PM

Well, I can't speak for the places you mention, but here in Denmark something like that would not remain unfixed on the main doors to a facility. Not on anything owned by a serious company anyway. - At least I have never seen it happen unless the system was specifically being messed with or fixed or upgraded.

I suggest breaking it completely so they HAVE to fix it as well.

What a privileged life I have I guess...

Posted by: Fortune Apr 19 2008, 08:52 PM

And don't you forget it.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 20 2008, 05:53 AM

Kind of hard to explain, seeing as the main door *IS* "guarded" all the time by a security guard making sure that noone damages any of the equipment, or walk off with a computer.

Not to mention walking around a mall with a battery like that, when the mall has no Hardware Store...

But, yeah, I see your point.

Posted by: Kastie Apr 20 2008, 06:15 AM

I know the technology in 2070 is a lot more advanced then 2008, so it might be more difficult to create fake SIN's, but then I imagine the technology to create fake SIN's would be more advanced too...that being said, in looking at the prices for current, Real Life, "SIN's" is relatively cheap...at least according to this article it is.


Stolen Identity Prices: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348051,00.html


It looks like you could get 50 full fake identities (SIN's), for $100.00, or just $2.00 for a full fake ID...if that would be the equivalent of a fake SIN, then they are way overpriced in SR.

Kastie

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 20 2008, 06:19 AM

A SIN isn't just an ID, it's an all in one combination of a passport, driver's license, bank book, credit/debit card, and for all I know, library card.

Posted by: Kastie Apr 20 2008, 06:30 AM

Yeah, I realize that a SIN has more to it, but if a full fake ID is just $2.00 in RL, then a SIN, even though it has more "stuff' to it, shouldn't be that much more, which would still make them cheap.

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 20 2008, 06:37 AM

True, if it was just an ID, however, the reason the price goes up as the rating goes up is for the quality of the background.

Rating 1 has maybe a few lines inserted in various databases.
Rating 2 has maybe twice as much as a rating 1.

So on and so forth.

Rating 6 would probably be in oh so many databases and in my game would odds are pass all but the most stringent check.

Posted by: Cantankerous Apr 20 2008, 07:37 AM

There's the thing. Databases. Instant access to hundreds or thousands or even hundreds of thousands of databases by which to cross check and re-cross check and re-re-cross check the validity of the ID (for instance) means that the fake ID that is worth $2.00 nowadays wouldn't be worth 0.000000001 in 2070.


Isshia

Posted by: kzt Apr 20 2008, 09:29 AM

Most of the databases you could check are about financial transfers. Problem is that if you can hack the equivalent of the financial files of American Express and Visa and create false financial transactions in the past you have no need to be creating fake IDs for money. You can literally just make yourself rich and never have to work again.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 20 2008, 10:18 AM

I think that the bit is talking about wholesale prices, if I recall organized crime is heavily into milking this field for steady income. It doesn't sound like anyone is buying a single ID here for personal use.

A runner probably doesn't get his ID here (unless he's a hacker) he gets it from his contact who gets it from his Vory contact who... etc etc. everyone take their cut and the price gets up there. Kinda like how opium costs nickles before it leaves it's country of origin.

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 20 2008, 12:13 PM

Not really, the databases that are probably edited are:
Birth Record
Statistics
School Records
Medical Records (adding things that make the fake SIN realistic such as cases of childhood diseases, etc. etc.)
Phone Records
Employment Records
Driver's Licence

Think about it, when you are applying for a new bank account (at least here), you have to show proof of employment and maybe a driver's license. Assuming the records above are jiggered enough to pass a casual search, you can use it to get a bank account. A REAL bank account (even if using a false name) would then make your false ID seem more realistic neh?

Posted by: kzt Apr 20 2008, 03:29 PM

A commercial vendor can't actually get to those, only the government does. Are you assuming that stuffer shack does a check of your medical records and elementary school graduation when you buy a bar of foamed synthachocolate? It seems kind of unlikely to me.

What they can get to are commercial records. Do you have money, and are you likely to be ripping them off are the only things they care about.

What causes modern fake IDs to implode when questioned typically are things like a financial trail that pops into existence. Even when the fake ID is created by someone with legitimate rights, like a DMV employee creating a fake license. Stuffer shack won't care that your 25 year old character never had a bank account until 3 weeks ago, but the cops might find it most interesting that you've been employed by XYZ for 4 years, and they have never paid you and you never had a bank account until two months ago.

If someone can created a full credit trail for YOU they can simply avoid the whole dirty business of selling fake IDs and just create themselves a luxurious lifestyle.

Posted by: weblife Apr 20 2008, 03:39 PM

I would guess that the things the scanner looks up is more akin to:

Do you (the database) know this person? Y/N

Is he "ok"? Y/N

I find it very unlikely that the megas share detailed customer spending patterns freely. That knowledge is very valuable.

Not to mention, if they did, you would pretty much have to give consent for them to do it. Naturally you could deny them, and they in turn could deny trading with you, but that would mean a near blank SIN could exist in the hands of the near paranoid and very private people who deny sharing data.

Or do you all assume those kinds of rules are completely out the window by 2070?

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 20 2008, 03:49 PM

Sorry, I probably didn't make myself clear. A SIN is composed of those things I mentioned. Now certain businesses will look for that information (such as banks). Using a rating 1 fake SIN to open an account is highly unlikely to work (IMHO), however, from rating 4 up to 6, it is easier. Now most of the time, when you purchase something, say at a stuffer shack, all they care about is if your balance is sufficient to pay for what you are getting. However, the BANK itself will probably be testing your SIN rather more intensively.

As for the cops, their check will cross-reference your history, but odds are, if a reputable banking institution is part of your new SIN, knowing that the bank checks up on it more intensively, they might be more willing to see you as legit. After all, while the bank is on your SIN as a financial institution, the chances of them giving away your financial data is slim to none, unless of course, the coppers they are giving the info to is owned by the same company they work for in the first place. (Remember the clause that banks always use? They can't give away priviledged client info.)

The way I see it, banks (and other financial institutions) will be protecting their data pretty darned well, its the government files (at least the low-end ones that I mentioned above) that will be easier to hack.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 20 2008, 04:59 PM

Depends on the bank you're dealing with. I see the banks in Shadowrun like in the US right now. Any person with a pile of money can make a bank.

So, if you're opening an account at the "First Bank of J.R. Dobbs", the background check is going to be less extensive than for "UCAS Bank of Commerce (Formerly Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce)". A SIN Level 1 won't work for either, but a SIN level 3 (For DobbsBank) or 4 (For UBC) should have no issues for general banking. Of course higher would be much better.

But, the First Bank of J.R. Dobbs would also be more likely to cow down to a Lone Star investigation, whereas UBC will get it's team of Rabid Attack Lawyers out to make sure that the Release of Private Information order signed by two judges and an elected public notary has every "i" dotted and "t" crossed. After all, that's what those expensive service charges are for.

But, if the UBC does decide to investigate you (Like you're stupid enough to apply for a Loan for a House or Car!), then they have the equipment to break through that SIN like a Soyegg Carton!

Now, let's also not forget that other bank system of choice... The Black Bank Accounts. Organized Crime!

Da Foist Bank A Tony could care less about how secure or accurate your SIN is, as long as you have one. A SIN 1 will work for them. And it'll pass muster with the basic shopping a 'Runner will have to do (Stuffer Shack, Bargain Shop, http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2007/07/advertisement-vics-tiki-lounge.html, http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2007/06/advertisement-hookers-boomsticks.html, http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/search/label/Wang%27s%20Huge%20Gun, http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2007/11/advertisement-underbridge-and.html), but anything that does any kind of background check will trip questions (Pretty much any large purchases over a few thousand ). Tony, now, he don't like questions. His "service fees" are also larger than regular banks, with a collection agency that just can't be beat (Simply because they beat back, and harder.).

It's also great for dealing with other Shadowdenziens, who also probably have accounts with Da Foist Bank A Tony, or their other Organized Crime Equivilent.

Too many questions gets asked of Tony's Bank, and the cops end up raiding some place that used to have a lot of computer equipment in it, and has been stripped down to a bare lightbulb. And the bank never comes back again. And a lot of angry people are going to look into why those questions were asked, then why police action was actually demanded, rather than Lone Star just enjoying it's nice sized cut for "Security" of the "Site" (Part of what those large service charges pay for.). Those people, who also lost their money in Da Foist Bank A Tony, they're going to want to have words with the person that screwed up that nice arrangement they had...

Finally, numbered, off-shore bank accounts in countries with restrictive privacy laws. Yes, these places still exist because rich people and smaller corporations need to launder money as well (If, for nothing else, to pay less taxes!). But using these all the time at the Stuffer Shacks will raise eyebrows, but larger money transfers won't, as they'll blend in with the rest of the large amounts shifting around.

Posted by: Cabral Apr 20 2008, 06:21 PM

The way I envision "whole organisations exist solely for the purpose of creating false identities" is that they have established access into multiple databases and by filling out a form, it worms the supporting information into the relevant databases, with higher ratings populating more databases and activating additional code to more generate supporting information. Ie, you input that a certain individual worked at the Toshiba plant 3 years ago, a R1 would put that in the employee records with maybe some payroll records, a R3 might generate some paperwork with your name on it and an R6 might generate card reader logs, if they go back that far, and some personnel evaluation forms, etc.

The cost of greasing the wheels, maintaining access to the needed databases would likely be spread acrosss enough fake SINs to be very minor. These organizations would have an extremely high start up cost but after becoming established, each SIN would be mostly profit.

Posted by: kzt Apr 20 2008, 11:05 PM

The problem is that once you put something into the payroll records the ledger doesn't balance. That is NOT acceptable and will trip all sorts of audit flags. So either you have to be able to totally manipulate a mega's AP/AR/payroll system (in which case you can just have them send you large checks) or you can't do that. So unless you are replacing a real worker (which is certainly possible) it's exceedingly hard to add something to an account in the past.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 20 2008, 11:45 PM

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's if the business is legit.

How many fronts are there out there that are only an Electronic PO Box in China filled with flyers for Herbal Enlargement Pills?

Posted by: Triggerz Apr 21 2008, 02:34 AM

Hmmm... Yeah, but there are ways of cooking the books that keep them balanced. I'm really not any kind of accounting expert, but there are all sorts of cheap tricks one can use that will not be obvious at all. If you change both a debit and a credit from 500 to 5000, the books will still balance. It's just a matter of knowing which accounts you can use to hide, say, your extra payroll expenses.

Posted by: Triggerz Apr 21 2008, 02:34 AM

Yeah, that too.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 02:42 AM

I can actually see some Organized Crime Forensic Accountant whose job is just to go around the Matrix, checking out and trying to find old, forgotten Fronts and Straw Men specifically to use for Fake SINs.

The Fuchi Orphaned Fronts alone are still probably keeping the Yakuza and Mafia in Fake SIN Backtrails!

Posted by: kzt Apr 21 2008, 04:36 AM

It's easy to come up with a background that "looks OK". And for most purposes that is fine. And if you ignore idiocy, like the real chance of the stuffer shack blowing your level 6 fake ID..... And for damn near all practical purposes that is all you need. Just don't get arrested or similar event that makes a trainied investigator look into your past.

It's hard to come up with a fake ID that holds up to more then trivial investigation for someone who knows what they are doing and it gets exponentially harder and more expensive to come up with ones that can stand up to some investigation, serious investigation involving phone calls to people who should know you and on up to trained investigators visiting your former employers and landlords with pictures and checking printed copies of your high school yearbooks and running DNA tests on medical tissue samples from when you were a kid.

In my opinion, the only way you'd get an ID that would hold up to an sophisticated organized crime family or suspicious cops looking into you is to have it made by an intel or LE organization that is actively supporting it, with people answering phones and emails pretending to be your ex-boss or aunt Edna in Chicago.

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 21 2008, 04:50 AM

The thing is, with the descriptions in the SR4 book of how much these people rely on computers, it does seem that they don't do serious investigations if they are just checking your balance to see if you can pay for your purchase at the local stuffer shack or if they see you walking along that nice AAA neighborhood, instead they question your commlink to find your SIN, then run that SIN against their computers.

So if your fake Rating 4 SIN is backed by a decent financial institution, say Citibank of North America, with that account being real (after all you deposited money into it), there is a good chance that their computers are going to pass you on as legit. What more with a rating 6 SIN backed by say 3 extremely reputable financial institutions?

Of course, that's not to say that the financial institutions will not question your SIN in the first place, that's why you pay for the higher rating, to hope that enough info has been inserted about you to make you look legit.

As you keep using that fake SIN, the more "real" it gets, more and more info enters the system. Confirming that you are "you".

On the other hand, throwaway SINs, something that you get for a single run, I'd probably go for a 3 rating at most.

Posted by: Triggerz Apr 21 2008, 04:54 AM

I assume one could know who they're supposed to be when they pick up the phone by assigning different phone numbers to different references (but all the numbers are routed to the same few "call centers" as you suggested). When inspector Columbob calls 555-5667, aunt Edna's file shows up on the call center's screen with details on her nephew John so that the call center's employee has all the information needed to answer questions properly. I hadn't really thought much about that kind of stuff before, but it would work pretty well, I think. Should we make fake IDs subscription items then? The cost of the service (for the firm) is not going to be the same for, say, elven and ork clients since the former is likely to live a whole lot longer.

Posted by: kzt Apr 21 2008, 04:59 AM

Subscription would be cool, but not covered by lifestyle. And they are so NOT going to give out credit. Don't miss your monthly payment.

This won't work on the smart and suspicious investigator who has connections or hacking, but it will cover many SINs.

Posted by: ornot Apr 21 2008, 11:39 AM

The way I've thought about fake SINs is not so much that an identity has been created, but rather that one has been stolen or otherwise co-opted. A low rating one is where the original owner is very much alive and likely to notice that some bastard has been going places and buying soykaf with their identity and money. A high rating means that the owner is actually dead or comatose, and no one is going to check up on the activity.

Of course, this does open up the prospect of runners spending someone else's money to rent a monster truck, say. Of course, if this is Mr Coma, his account will become overdrawn, and the medical agency will switch off his life support or try to find out where their money has gone (thus breaking your rating 6 SIN). Similar abuse of a rating 1 SIN will probably lead to a far quicker reaction and a refusal to the monster truck rental folk, as the bank contacts the legitimate owner of the SIN who says "I don't want to rent a monster truck", and the rental company calls LS.

Of course, if the runner transfers any money they earn or spend to or from Da Foist Banka Tony, erring on the side of transferring more money to the account than from it the legitimate owner won't notice or won't report it ("My account just gained 50:yen:. Should I mention it to my bank? nah...").

Buying stuff on the black market involves drawing directly on Da Foist Banka Tony, or even using hard currency withdrawn from Da Foist Bank.

OOC this is all fluff, and costs are glossed over as being part of lifestyle costs. Someone with the SINner quality has to spend money to get their shadow income laundered, if they choose ot use their legit SIN, so it comes down to the same thing.

Also, I think that fake SINs are something that can't be used indefinitely. Since the more you use it, the more likely the legitimate owner is going to notice.

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 21 2008, 12:10 PM

I've always played the low level SIN's actually go up in level the more you use them. If you're using that level 3 SIN to buy your groceries, rent your apartment, etc, that all forms a datatrail that eventually leads to a higher level of SIN (after all you have a real world address right?). The catch is, of course, that at higher ratings... you actually have a real address, which means that if anything illegal get linked to your SIN, the cops actually know where to serve that no-knock warrant.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 01:14 PM

"Vote early and vote often! Get some use out of those Fake SINs, folks!"

Posted by: Aaron Apr 21 2008, 02:12 PM

There are ways. Battery in a satchel, wires up the shirt or jacket sleeve, connected to the card. Ignore Hollywood, there won't be any big explosion or anything, maybe a tiny spark and a puff of ozone, but that's it.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 21 2008, 02:22 PM

If a PC had to make that Pilot Ground roll every time they went to fetch more nuke it burritos from the stuffer shack the roads would be littered with wrecks. Pilot ground doesn't matter for day to day driving. You don't roll it. It only matters for that critical crash test during the run gone bad.

Apply same to Fake SINs. If you do, the costs of fake SINs and licenses are in line.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 02:35 PM

Well, I'm a province away now anyhow.

But, frag it, I'd WANT the big Hollywood Explosion!

I hated those bloody doors! And that job.

But, yeah, back to Fake SINs... There's another provision that I don't think we've put into consideration...

Out of Country SINs! I mean, really, how likely is Lone Star going to get cooporation out of the Cascade Orks about their SIN registry. "Yeah, we know, gotta provide the SIN in as timely a fashion as possible. We'll get our filing department right on that. Estimated time for that is..." *Click* "Oh, look at that, call was disconnected. Oh well."

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 21 2008, 04:14 PM

Hmm. There has to be a certain level of cooperation, because otherwise, CO LEOs don't get any access to Metroplex SINs and the general utility of *their* SIN checking goes to drek.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 04:30 PM

Oh, not saying there's NO level of cooperation, but the level of it is based on the politics at the time.

Good example, let's say that Knight Errant is researching a SIN for some reason, and backtraces it to Saeder-Krupp, England, a Carribean League Island, and the Cascade Orks.

By international/intercorporate law, all SIN agencies have to communicate with each other, but there'd be wiggle room in the legalese. Most likely something like, "Provide at earliest convience" or some such.

Saeder-Krupp is on good terms with Ares this week, in fact, they joined together to fight Aztechnology in a Desert Wars game, and combined some major advertising that's increasing sales for both, so doesn't mind the earliest convience being pretty fraggin' quick.

The British SIN office will provide Knight Errant with the SIN, but demands all the proper paperwork and forms be filled out first. Stuffy beurecratese is the only holdup there. But it does take a few hours for the forms, then maybe a day or two for processing time, as the processing is performed at peak processing availability (Read: At night.) because of some arcane reason stemming back to the 1980s.

The Carribean League Island has a few Ares facilities on it, and knows where it's bread is buttered, so hands over everything on this guy, his family, and asks if they want Rum with that.

The Cascade Orks, however, are rather upset with Knight Errant at the moment, having had a major shipment of California Hots they were "Legally moving to their territory via Seattle" intercepted by Knight Errant on Ares territory when the driver "got lost". They throw up every legal and technical roadblock available to them to slow down the responce, but do provide the information as they're legally required to, and don't want to have to deal with the ramifications thereof, but it takes a few days, and the office where that particular SIN is kept can only transfer the information by an old Fax Machine, which has a iffy scanner on it. "So sorry that it's almost unreadable. Oh? That's the wrong SIN? Are you sure? Oh, some digits were transposed? Ah, accidents do happen. Please reapply with the right SIN this time."

Posted by: kzt Apr 22 2008, 05:15 AM

That's like UPS getting in a pissing match with the Hoover's FBI. Who loses here; KE, who can't get cooperation occasionally, or the cascade orcs, who have their "commerce" obliterated? It's really a bad idea to choose to piss off people who can fairly casually destroy you. It's a really rare trucker who has EVERY stinking t crossed and i dotted. "I'm sorry, but the pressure of your #3 tire is 2 pounds below the legal requirement, and your taillights are dirty, so I'm going to have to impound your truck for multiple safety violations. Would you like to witness our inventory of the cargo for the impound form?"

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 12:00 PM

No, it isn't. First off, Knight Errant is a security company that does not have the license for patrolling city streets and intercepting trucks. That's the job of Lone Star, their competetor, which will take a distinct interest in hanky panky, and arrest the Knight Errant officers for "Obstruction of Legitimate Internal/External Trade".

And make bloody sure it gets put on the 2100 News, because it makes Knight Errant look like bullies as they're trying to get the contract for Seattle Peace Officers when it comes time for renewal.

Unless the trucks are on Ares Land, or territory that Knight Errant is contracted to protect, then it'd be EXACTLY like a mall security guard going around stopping trucks on the freeway. A Cop will come up and go, "WTF!"

Also, which shipments are from the Cascade Orks, and which is any other truck from the Salish-Shidhe Council? You start getting the Ambassador from S-SC involved if someone starts stopping all the trucks, and then you even get some of the higher-ups in Seattle's Government involved because they don't want the feelings strained any further than they already are.

Finally, don't forget the view people have of the Cascade Orks? Don't you think that's been carefully crafted? "Jeeze, those Trogs are so stupid they probably do only have the SIN information on paper! And a Fax Machine might be too complicated for their drugged-out minds to actually operate."

And, most importantly, notice that nothing was said of the most important thing to the Cascade Orks when it comes to getting things done... The Social Lubricant that makes their government work. The subtly referenced bribe. "Would a Filing Service Charge be in order?", that speeds things up indeed.

OK, this isn't some street gang I'm talking here, the Cascade Orks, for all their "Illegal Activities", are part of a legitimate government. Their actions are completely legal in their own territory, and the S-S will fight for that legality to be respected lest their own be compromised, then deal with the issue internally.

"Better to handle things in the family than let some uppity outsider think he can tell us how to do things!"

Posted by: kzt Apr 22 2008, 03:17 PM

Lone Star can't stop 10 man biker gangs from "terrorizing the interstates", who is going to stop KE from enforcing the law on them?

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 22 2008, 03:20 PM

The Metroplex Guard, once the S-S diplomatic corps get to work on the Governor. Or the UCAS military. Ares does *not* want to get in a shooting war with its customers.

Posted by: imperialus Apr 22 2008, 04:28 PM

Doesn't matter. Lone Star has jurisdiction. That's a big deal in the SW. Just like how the FBI doesn't go around handing out traffic tickets, KE shouldn't be intercepting smugglers on the highway.

Just look at the pissing matches that the cops get into with the FBI or other agencies in TV shows like CSI or Law and Order. Even in RL the 9/11 commission report blamed lack of communication between agencies as one of the reasons the plot wasn't stopped.

Now multiply that rivalry and bureaucratic mumbojumbo by about a thousand. The Federal Police in the Cascades don't want to help out KE. KE has spent the last 15 years trying to offer a contract to the government. The orks would loose their seniority at least, and likely their jobs if that happened.

London has a KE contract but it still moves a bit slow just because the officers there are overworked with their own problems. A gang war is heating up and there've been half a dozen shootouts between gang members in C or better rated neighborhoods in the past week, a 'civilian' got killed in the last one and the papers have been harping about it.

Even the Carib League probably would have problems. After all, the SIN there is likely tracking back to a 'privately owned investment firm'. It takes them 3 days just to get through to the firms office. Then the company quietly gets 'bought' so it's PO box shifts, and the investigators can't get a hold the new owners so they eventually just give up.

As far as SK goes, even if their relationship with Ares is as frosty as usual they still might move pretty quick. Maybe this SIN has come up with red flags on their system before, nothing terribly compromising and it's not worth investing resources into tracking down but hey, if someone else is willing to deal with it, why not.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 04:29 PM

Exactly. This heads into the levels of Politics. Again, the Cascade Orks is *NOT* a gang, it's a TRIBE and part of a Legitimate Government. One that has strained relations with Seattle at the bestof times.

And, legally, they are "Cooporating" with Knight Errant/Ares. It will happen, just not as fast as KE wants it to, and full of hassle.

Ares can, and probably does the exact same thing to the Cascade Orks when they order from the Knight Errant Security Catalogue.

Posted by: ornot Apr 22 2008, 04:38 PM

One thing worth bearing in mind re: alien SINs. Visas and other residence permits.

Often, if two political entities are at loggerheads, citizens of one residing in another must register with the authorities. Consequently Ares don't need to deal directly with the Cascade Orc tribe, but can query the Seattle Metroplex about alien SINs. If your SIN is there illegally expect immigration police to come knocking on your door to deport your illegal alien behind, even if the SIN is not legit.