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Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 20 2008, 07:56 PM

Greetings everyone.

I would like to ask some questions since im new to Shadowrun setting and system and to the GMing buisness. So.. here it goes:

Summoning:
- in a combat situation, a player summons as spirit and get 3 net hits (so it has 3 services). When he rolls to resist the spell DV, his stun tracker reaches 0. So he is unconscious and fall down. Down the summon apear (on astal or material plane?)? does the summon execute any service? If the caster just get unconscious later, does the spirit finish the service? what does it do after he finish the service and the player is still down? and if the team members carry the body away to a safe place?
- when a spirit is summoned, how many CM boxes does it has?
- a spirit is doing and Elemental Attack ( ranged attack that gives elemental damage ). He roll a glitch. what effect coult it have?

NPCs in Combat:
- i was running the "On The Run" starting adventure and i reach a point where i had alot of NPCs in the same combat ( like 15 or so) plus 5 players. I got nuts trying to handle all the NPCs and i got really lost on this matter. How do you usualy do:
- - do you apply the wound modifiers to the NPCs actions and Init. too?
- - how do you usually handle combat between NPCs?
- - any tip to make this easyer?

Movement in Combat:
- the movement rate is the same for all Combat Turn, so, how should i handle a players that has 3 IP and on the first one declares a running and goes to a location and do something, and on the next IP stays on tha same place doing something too?

Ressuscitation and Clones:
- anyone know it is it possible, how that can it be done and how does it work? (when charecter reaches damage overflow or passes the maximum overflow)

Combat Handling:
- Since the rules dont state nothing related to "how to use map grids".. and so one ( because of the general use of movement on SR), i would like to know if anyone has been using maps and hex or square grids to draw the places wherethe characters are and to handle combat movement, to help to visualize things. (i think it may be easyer for me this way because its easyer to handle distances and so on)


Its all for now .. i think lol

Thanks in advance.
(note: im from Portugal, in case there is any Portuguese arround... )

Posted by: Aaron Apr 20 2008, 08:23 PM

I believe the correct interpretation is that the spirit becomes uncontrolled and the summoner passes out before he gets a chance to give any orders. I also believe that summoned spirits appear on the astral.


As it appears in the astral, it would have 8 + F/2.


That's up to you, but it would be bad for the spirit and its allies (or at least make their lives more complicated).


Me? Actions yes, initiative no. I usually let the bad guys all use the same initiative, which is the best Initiative rating among them, and then use individual IPs.


The same way I handle it between PCs and NPCs. Or, if the battle isn't going to impact what the PCs are doing, I just narrate it.


Sure. What I do is put the CM max on a line for each NPC. Then when marking damage, I make hash marks after that number in the shape of triangles. So the first one is like a /, the second is like a _, and the third is like a \, making a triangle which kind of looks like /\. Then every triangle is a -1 dice pool penalty. Pain Tolerance is done with vertical marks. So an encounter might look like:

• Henchmen:
• 10: /\ /\ / [This guy's taken seven damage.]
• 10: /\ / [This one's taken five damage.]
• Boss:
• 12/2: || /\ /\ [The boss has Pain Tolerance 2 and has taken eight damage total.]

Create a movement rate per IP. For example, a walking movement rate of 10m and 3 IPs might move 4m for one IP and 3m for the other two.


Page 160, Street Magic. Dead is dead.


Some do, some don't. It's been sufficient for us to draw on the white board and for me to say "it's twelve meters from here to here."


I'm mostly Portuguese, but I was born in Illinois. Desculpe.

Posted by: Triggerz Apr 20 2008, 09:04 PM

Great stuff! I'll make sure to use that if I end up GMing our group (as is likely to happen, I think).

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 20 2008, 09:12 PM

Actually, on the glitch, the spirit still succeeds on its attack, it just also has a negative effect along with it. (Examples of glitches are things like shooting but also ejecting your clip, or succeeding in a jump but landing on some nails and taking some damage). So, for a spirit using elemental attack, I'd maybe say something like either the spirit takes some of the damage also, or the spirit burns itself out, and can't use the elemental attack again until it spends a complex action "recharging".

Posted by: Kithran Apr 20 2008, 09:15 PM

I presume you could have the elemental attack causing a fire - the more glitches the closer to where the party are and the further from the target.

Kithran

Posted by: Fortune Apr 20 2008, 11:08 PM

So is Shadowrun's new Line Developer.

Welcome to Dumpshock.

Posted by: Synner Apr 21 2008, 01:19 PM

And here I thought I was the last Shadowrun GM still running around in Portugal...

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 21 2008, 03:19 PM

Or setting off the sprinklers or knocking something over that might impede either side, or making a big cloud of smoke, or triggering an autoclose door, or frying a circuit so the door *won't* autoclose.

Anything really, so long as it's an "unintended consequence" and isn't too major. You can play it for laughs, even. A water elemental might just accidentally drench a teammate.

Posted by: Fortune Apr 21 2008, 03:46 PM

I thought you were in England now.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 21 2008, 06:01 PM

I think he's staying in Portugal; he seems to have developed a taste for good food. =ib

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 21 2008, 06:10 PM

You can add a "taste for good weather" too

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 10:15 AM

Another Question:
- on Character creation, whats the MAX availability for gear? the playes can buy ANY peace of equipment or is there any Availadility cap?
(i know that cyberware is restricted to normal and Alpha on charecter creation)

thanks

Posted by: Fortune Apr 23 2008, 11:15 AM

The Availability maximum is 12 at chargen.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 23 2008, 11:29 AM

By the book, availability 12. It's in the gear section of the character generation chapter, IIRC.

Posted by: ArkonC Apr 23 2008, 11:59 AM

So medical technology in 2070 forgot how to resuscitate?
There are no rules anywhere in the books on how to do this, and we haven't ever had the opportunity to even try, I mean, why try when the guy is missing a head, right?
Magic cannot raise the dead, but resuscitation through technological means should still be possible, and even have a bigger change of success, I think...

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 12:07 PM

I think its a good thing that theres are no ressurection thing, that way the players will think twice or more before doing a stupid thing lol. But cloning clould be a possibility ( i dont know if there are any rules for cloning ).

Posted by: Aaron Apr 23 2008, 12:48 PM

I'm fairly certain that "beyond Physical damage overflow max" is equivalent to "completely dead," whereas "full Physical Condition Monitor but not yet past the max" is equivalent to "able to be resuscitated," for medical and magical techniques. I'm willing to bet that the stabilization process includes resuscitation techniques.

Posted by: ArkonC Apr 23 2008, 12:53 PM

Well, there have been instances of people being completely dead and still being successfully resuscitated...
I don't think rules for this would be very useful, since deaths that involve PCs are usually messy and beyond the scope of medical technology...

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 23 2008, 02:45 PM

I think Aaron meant by "completely dead" a state of death so complete that one can't be resuscitated, represented by being "dead" in game terms. Maxing your physical damage boxes is "dead" as far as most people are concerned (heart may be stopped, etc.) but, you have that overflow amount before you're completely dead.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 03:05 PM

So then how whould it work with DocWagon contract? it only works as long you dont pass the maximum overflow?

Regarding DocWagon ... my players will have it for sure, so, if anyone could explain the practical use with simple exemples, i would be thankfull

Thanks.

Posted by: bjorn Apr 23 2008, 03:26 PM

With that many NPCs, I use the same initiative. If 1/2 or more take wounds lets say, I'll drop their initiative number 1. For actions, I do apply wound modifiers, but if I'm using that many NPCs, 95% of them have the same dice pool so it is easy to say "OK, ganger 1 has 6 dice to shoot with, -1 for wound, ganger 2 -2 dice, ganger 3 full dice pool, etc". I also only use 1 damage track, so physical and stun add up quickly and threats are eliminated. The only time I use 2 damage tracks and separate initiatives is for "boss type" NPCs (leaders and other runners).


If they have 3 IP's, they can only run 1/3 of their movement rate. So if they say they want to move across the street, but on the 2nd pass they actually want to shoot someone, their character stops in the middle of the street.


Cybermancy (Street Magic Book)


We use wet-erase markers and mat with different colors representing different things. Makes the game much easier and more visual, the only thing is the bigger the mat you use, the bigger your playing surface has to be.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 23 2008, 03:32 PM

Basically, yeah.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 23 2008, 03:41 PM

I am unaware of any cases that weren't simply a result of outdated definitions of "dead," specifically the cessation of breathing or heartbeat (which is now known as "clinical death," and is insufficient to pronounce a person dead). Wikipedia has a pretty good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead#Definition.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 23 2008, 03:53 PM

Nah, they shoot with the "Shooter running" negatives. Unless they *want* to stop...

Posted by: Speed Wraith Apr 23 2008, 04:34 PM

I use a square grid battlemat, since our group had been doing DnD for the last few years (funny that 4th edition DnD drove me away, but I'll readily go to 4th SR ). It isn't perfect, but I hate hexes for half-squares. We just started playing SR again so we haven't really settled on anything yet. I'm hoping to find a battlemat with smaller squares than 1 inch so that I have an easier time with doing large-scale combat.

As for initiative, I use excel. I've got a blank template that includes initiative on one side and an NPC condition monitor chart on the other. Again, not perfect, but we're still working out the kinks and trying to experiment with whatever we can. I've seen an initiative application, but only got it to work once...

Posted by: DTFarstar Apr 23 2008, 04:42 PM

I have found that a couple of things work for me. For one, Hex maps seem to just work better for SR for some reason. I use one regularly in my games and each hex typically = 1m. Had to change that for some big areas, but otherwise it works fine.

I like Aaron's damage tracking. He's a clever fellow and you should definitely check out his SR web page. I do however check seperate initiative and wound modifiers for every NPC and apply them as appropriate. The thing is, I resolve NPC only interactions and initiative in the same way. When I am planning things out(or just really quickly if I'm working on the fly as I often am) I divide their relative DP by four(round down) and write that down next to it. Then whenever an NPC reaction is called for I roll a d6, divide by two rounding down(so results from 0-3), and add that number to the original number and that is how many hits they got. So, they still generally get 1 in 3, sometimes more and sometimes less. They glitch or crit glitch when it helps the story vs. each other. So, just one dice roll per action and literally a one dice dice roll.
For instance, Joe Cop and Jim Ganger are fighting in an alley, Joe Cop has a stun baton, a parry DP of 8, and a clubs DP of 10, Jim Ganger has a broken bottle, a dodge DP of 9, and a blades DP of 6 + 2 for knives spec - 2 for trying to use a bottle as a knife. So, Joe Cop has Parry 2, Clubs 2 and Jim Ganger has Dodge 2, Blades 1. Joe swings his stun baton at Jim and so I roll a d6 for each. Joe gets a 1 which is 0 when divided by two and rounded down. Jim gets a 5, which is a two. So, Clubs 2+0 vs. Dodge 2+2 and Jim dodges deftly out of the way. Joe got a slightly sub-par roll and Jim got a slightly above par roll when compared to the actual 1-in-3 hits you would statistically get.
It takes me very little time and allows me to still resolve things impartially without too much rolling or just deciding their fates.


As for movement, I would highly recommend you do what we have done and make all movements easily divisible by 4, then everyone gets to move their part during every IP. So, humans would walk 12m, and thus every human would be able to walk 3m an IP and even if they can't take an action they can move. Keeps people with lower IPs from feeling as left out and just makes things easier.

As for Doc Wagon, they are good if your team does not have a dedicated medic. Also, if you burn edge to live you will most likely really need medical treatment at least in my games. Also, think how long it really takes someone to bleed out to completely dead if they have a good body. The only resuscitation I allow is burned edge to live resus. Something drops you with a horrible amount of damage, you permanently burn edge, and when DW gets to you they can get you alive again. But otherwise, they are just guaranteed medics if yours bites a bullet or you have to split up.

Chris

Posted by: SprainOgre Apr 23 2008, 04:44 PM

There are some rules for it in Augmentation if I'm not mistaken.


That's what permanently burning a point of edge is for though, isn't it?

Posted by: DTFarstar Apr 23 2008, 04:47 PM

That is the way I run it, SprainOgre.

Chris

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 05:55 PM

Funny, coz my group played D&D too lol

Here see this. Its a free grid maker [ http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/ ]

Posted by: Speed Wraith Apr 23 2008, 05:59 PM

Cool The dot-grids remind me of the old DMZ game and Sprawl Maps...hmm...

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 06:02 PM

But isnt the movement mode the same for all combat turn? like, if you decide you are running on the first IP then you are running on the next 2 IP too?

or you split the movement mode in 1/IP and use that mode on each separated IP ??

Posted by: SprainOgre Apr 23 2008, 06:03 PM

I know that's one of my favorite uses for Edge that I hope I never have to use...

Posted by: deek Apr 23 2008, 08:15 PM

I don't run it that way. Walking is free, so they always can move their walk speed each IP. Running is a Free Action. Sprinting a Simple Action. Its declared at the beginning of each IP. So, you can spend a Free Action in IP 1 and continue running at no cost indefinitely (but suffering running modifiers to actions). Or you could run in IP 1 with a free action, walk in IP 2 (no action spent), run in IP 3 (another free action) and assuming you only had 3 IPs, either continue running, stop or use your walk rate in IP 4. You couldn't sprint because that takes a Simple Action and you have no actions in IP 4.

Basically, this gives a player one of 3 movement rates each pass they can act in.

Posted by: bjorn Apr 23 2008, 08:21 PM

Yeah I guess, but what I was getting at is if they would move 35 meters in a turn they don't go that whole 35 meters on their first initiative pass.



I also allow you choose each IP. Since multiple IPs is saying your body moves faster and your brain can process more things, I see it as sensible to let the characters choose each turn.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 23 2008, 09:29 PM

can you tell me where did you saw that, please?

Posted by: SprainOgre Apr 23 2008, 09:37 PM

Actually, I think Cybermancy is in Augmentation...

Posted by: Aaron Apr 23 2008, 11:30 PM

It occurs to me that you don't even really need a grid. Just free-form it. Heck if you get some melamine counter-top for like five or ten bucks and cut it to match your table, you can use dry-erase to just draw your battlefields. Call it 1:100 (1 cm = 1 meter). Grab a tape measure and maybe a couple of pre-cut templates for movement (e.g. the player of a human character with 2 IP might have a 5cm template) and you're set.

Posted by: kzt Apr 24 2008, 04:26 AM

Trauma arrests are http://www.naemsp.org/pdf/guideterminate.pdf. Like 2% survival if they get to a trauma center in under 10 minutes. It's worse if it's due to blunt force. (The link will tell you far more than you probably wanted to know - but I had it handy. )

The bleeding to death rules in SR ("PHYSICAL DAMAGE OVERFLOW") are pretty insane, but getting shot up is a bad thing.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 24 2008, 11:40 AM

Need some help with a char generator.

Im currently using "SR4Chargen.xls - Last Design Update: 2006/Oct/4 Update By: blakkie, Dumpshock Forums

I just noticed now that the Gear sections ir not costumizable. Is there any update on this chargen os is there any other good chargen somewhere ??

thanks

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 24 2008, 06:38 PM

Ok, here comes another question:

Spellcasting:
- im getting confused with the Force i must choose in certain spells. For exemple the levitate ou Invisibility spell. What does the Force influence on that spells?


Drones, vehicle and Riggers:
- vehicle can be controled manually, remotly, or "jumped into" (right?)
- drones can be controled remotly or "jumped into" (right?)

As the "jumped into" part of the control, the rigger become the drone/vehicle, so on the players turn, he drone/veichle acts.
And what about when you are controling it remotly?

Does any vehicle/drone act alone as the rigger command him to?

How does it work in combat, lets say, a rigger that has 2 flying drones that can shoot at people. How would it work?
( i like rigger but im getting dificult in "how to handle" them )

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 24 2008, 08:28 PM

I use two dry-erase battlemaps as I've never found any scale smaller than 1" squares. But if smaller-than-1" dry-erase battlemaps exist and are easy to purchase someone let me know!

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 25 2008, 09:20 AM

The Force of the spell limits the number of hits from the [magic+spellcasting+focus] test. Some spells are more affected by this than others, but Levitate, for example can lift an amount of stuff based on the number of hits you get. So casting it at Force 1 means you'll only be able to lift a maximum of one "per hit" unit of mass.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 25 2008, 10:13 AM

The spell's force (chosen when cast) is the maximum number of hits (not net hits) you can apply from your Spellcasting test. Further, most spells have other effects determined by force - base damage for combat spells, the speed you can move objects with Levitate, etc.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 25 2008, 01:52 PM

Let me know if this helps: http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/SR4Spellcasting.pdf.

Posted by: DTFarstar Apr 25 2008, 04:44 PM

I wish the battlemat we had was dry-erase. IT is wet erase and stain easily.

Chris

Posted by: deek Apr 25 2008, 05:26 PM

Ours too. It kinda sucks.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 25 2008, 06:29 PM

I wish I had http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/

Posted by: deek Apr 25 2008, 06:37 PM

That is pretty badass.

The guy whose house we play at has a projector in his basement and we had considered using that for mapping. We play on a pool table with a battlemat on it, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to make it happen...

I have read that laptops may be the norm when DnD 4th Edition comes out...

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 25 2008, 06:40 PM

We're at 3 out of 6 people have laptops at the gaming table. I've just got to talk my wife into letting me hook a projector to our ceiling, either that or find some (non-permanent) way of suspending it over the table. I've found others who have just projected a picture onto the grid battlemat, so they didn't have to mess with the grid. I think I prefer that way as it would save alot of work (and make the area look more organic instead of blocky).

Posted by: Aaron Apr 26 2008, 03:32 AM

I'd rather have a table that back-projected (under-projected?) the screen. Way easier to cable.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 26 2008, 03:34 AM

Melamine. It's really cheap, and works fine as a dry-erase surface. In fact, when I converted the chalk boards in my lab to white boards, I just bought two 4x8 sheets of the stuff and clamped them in place using the chalkboard housing. It's been there for three years and still works great.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 27 2008, 07:46 PM

Your are giving me a really good help. Thank you guys ( and girls ir any arround lol )

Any help on the Drones/Vehicles part ??

Posted by: Crusher Bob Apr 28 2008, 06:49 AM

The program that controls a drone when you are not jumped into it is called a pilot program.

A drone operating on its own has an initiative or its response + pilot rating and gets 3 IP (BBB p158, Vehicle Initiative)

When shooting at drones operating on their own, they have a passive defense of pilot +/- the drones handling (BBB p161, Attacks Against Vehicles).

For shooting, drones roll Pilot + targeting autosoft (BBB p162, Drones and Gunnery)

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 28 2008, 09:04 AM

Thanks

Just one more thing. Wich book is BBB ?

Regards.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Apr 28 2008, 09:07 AM

Big Black/Blue Book, the main rule book.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 28 2008, 11:21 AM

Thanks

Another one:

Healing Spell:
- im not understanding how does this spell works, specially the part hat says "only work unce for one set of wounds"

Anyone can explai it in a simple way?

thanks

Posted by: Crusher Bob Apr 28 2008, 12:23 PM

Guy Allen is in fight, gets hit for 6 boxes of damage, goes to mage saying 'heeeeaal!" Mage cast spell at force 4, gets 4 hits on spell, heals 4 boxes. Mage buddy cannot cast heal again to heal the last two boxes, as magical healing has already been cast on that injury.

Later Allan gets into another fight, taking another 7 boxes (bringing him to total of 9 boxes of damage). He goes crawling to mage buddy again. Mage buddy pulls out all the stops, cast heal at force 8, and spends edge. With lucky dice roll, mage gets 8 hits on healing spell this time, but sadly can only heal 7 boxes (bringing Allen back down to two). He can't heal the last two boxes since that set of injuries had already had heal cast on it earlier.

Posted by: Fortune Apr 28 2008, 01:42 PM

Shadowrun Rule # 13: Always use First Aid before using any magical healing.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 28 2008, 02:16 PM

So let me see if i got it right. lets say AA has 5 boxes and the mage heals 3 boxes. So AA has 2 boxes remaining. Thouse 2 boxes can only be healed with magic IF they increase ( like if he get another shoot and gain 1 more box of damage/stun) so AA will have 4 boxes and the Mage can try again.

Did i get it correctly ??

If im not wrong first aid works on the same way right ?

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 28 2008, 02:23 PM

You can burn the Edge and live... the "Story" reason might be resuscitation.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Apr 28 2008, 02:25 PM

Normal rule interpretation is that the two boxes left over after the first magical healing can't be healed by further magical healing attempts either. They have to be healed naturally. Even is Allen takes more boxes, he can only be magically healed down to two boxes.

So:

1st fight:
Allen takes 4 boxes.
Mage buddy heals 2 boxes.
Allen has 2 boxes 'unhealable'

----------

2nd fight
Allen takes 4 more boxes (is now at 6 boxes total)
Mage buddy heals 3 boxes
Allen has 3 boxes of damage 'unhealable'

-----------

3rd fight
Allen takes 5 boxes (is now at 9 boxes total)
Mage buddy gets 9 hits on healing spell, but can only heal Allen down to 3 boxes of damage, since those 3 boxes are 'unhealable'. Allen will have to rest up so that those 3 boxes heal naturally. Note that there are plenty of things to speed natural healing times, and even unassisted natural healing by RAW is very fast.

---------------

The thing Fortune is alluding to is that first aid can't be used after magical healing, but magical healing can be used after first aid.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 28 2008, 02:25 PM

No, those 2 boxes will only be healed by bedrest. Once magic has been used it can't be used again for that damage. First Aid works the same, except that after First Aid you can apply Magic Healing (not vice-versa).

EDIT: Crusher Bob beat me to the punch..

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 28 2008, 02:33 PM

I don't like the interpretation that if you take 3 boxes, get magically healed for 2, and then take 3 more, and get healed for the full 4 that it doesn't work. Why? Too much bookeeping. Oh, I got this wound from that devil rat, and didn't quite get healed, so I can't heal my first box. And this one from that ganger, but my mage is horrible at healing today, so now I can't heal my first 3 boxes. And so on.

Also, how does this work with the heal DV? Since its the damage you're healing, if you have someone who takes 3 boxes of damage, gets healed for one, then takes 4 more (total of 6 now) does the DV for heal go off the 4 you can possibly heal, or the full 6? Why should it be the full 6 if you can't heal them?

I'm of the opinion that if you get injured again, you can heal up the full amount, and the heal spell uses the full amount of boxes to base its DV off of. Less bookkeeping, less headache, and if any runners really want to shoot themselves in the foot to give the mage another chance...... well, lets just say it'll be a composure test at the least.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 28 2008, 02:35 PM

Not quite. They can't be healed with magic at all. Ever. But any *increase* in damagedness can.




But the most the mage can heal is the two *new* ones. And just to remind you can't heal *Stun* track damage with magic. This is to prevent Mages healing themselves of damage inflicted by Drain.




Yep. But since you don't take Drain from First Aid, it's best to apply that first to any "wounds" that can be treated so that your Heal spells can be cast at lower Force and you take less Drain.

Posted by: deek Apr 28 2008, 02:37 PM

I don't think its too much bookkeeping...as its the players that track that sort of thing.

It does mention multiple times that healing is done per wounds. You can choose not to do it that way, but having a player with first aid in our group, it seems to work pretty well with players remembering what kind of wounds they have.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 28 2008, 02:40 PM

Reading some answers, and realized I might be confused on something.

Is DV based on the damage the person you are healing has taken? Or is it based on the amount of damage you are healing?

If I heal 3 boxes on someone with 8 boxes of damage.... Is my DV based on the 3 or the 8?

Posted by: deek Apr 28 2008, 02:43 PM

It should be based on the wound. If that was one 8 box wound, then you have no choice but to base it off 8. But, if it was two 3 DV wounds and a 2 DV wound, then you are looking at three separate healing tests.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Apr 28 2008, 02:45 PM

I go by "Set of wounds" as in all damage you've taken since you were last healed. 3 bullet wounds is 1 set of wounds.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 28 2008, 02:47 PM

Or is it based on the 5 boxes you could, potentially, have healed (just assuming 3 had already been failed on by magic previously)...?

I don't think it matters whether it's 5 1pt scratches that are new, or one 5pt cratering round...

Posted by: deek Apr 28 2008, 06:40 PM

But it does matter...in game, at least. Five 1pt scratches are a lot easier to heal than a single 5pt crater. We've got one person in the group with First Aid and he's not crazy-good at it. So, when someone needs healing, he'll ask how many boxes, the recipient will tell him and the healer rolls. He'll then ask if there are any more, so on and so forth. Stuff that is not healed, the recipient makes a note of and we move on.

If someone doesn't remember exactly, we'll estimate and with 5 people at the table (which includes the GM), we figure it out and agree.

I actually didn't instill this behavior, several of us interpreted the rules the same and ran with it...

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 29 2008, 11:02 AM

Oh, absolutely. I meant that I didn't think the rules took it into account, so 5 x 1pt scratches *aren't* easier to heal unless you heal *in between each one*...

How much sense this makes... well, it's magic, so it's not required to make sense; whatever fits the tempo of your game. Healing many wounds, though, is going to mean sustaining many spells to permanent... Perhaps lumping "all damage since the last Heal" together is a good shorthand for the increasing difficulty of chain healing without fistfuls of foci.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 30 2008, 08:28 AM

so lets say um casting Force 5 Control Thoughts on someone. I roll 7 hit. So the other char will roll Spell Resist and only have to beat 5, right ??

About Spirits:
"Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons. (pg 288) Giving them armor equal to twice there force against ALL attacks."

This only means that the spirit rolls (force x 2 dice + body) on defence roll, right ?

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 30 2008, 08:43 AM

You can apply magical healing once per "set of wounds", which can be interpreted a few ways; wounds received sense the last time you were healed, wounds received sense the last time you were healed (categorized by type: Burn, Chemical, Bullet, etc.), and wounds received from each attack (tracked separately, my groups interpretation).

Any damage that magic failed to heal from a set of wounds can now only be healed naturally. I find it is effective to track damage taken with a / in the damage box, and any damage that cannot be healed, such as from a failed healing marked as an X. Use a small mark on the corner of the box to separate different "wound sets".

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 30 2008, 01:59 PM

Depending on what you mean by defense test. Theres a couple various common terms for different tests.

Ranged Combat Defense test = Reaction
Melee combat defense test = Reaction + Melee Skill

Damage Resistance Test (What I think you meant) = Body + Armor.

In the case of spirits, yes, they roll body + armor (which is forcex2)

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 30 2008, 04:59 PM

Then the spirits are not completly immune to normal weapons, just have a big defence agains it ( even with 15 dices its possible to get less hits them the attacker )

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 30 2008, 06:06 PM

Correct. Note, that the Immunity to Normal Weapons power references the hardened armor power as well. If the power of the attack is less than the rating of the armor, the attack fails outright.

For example, force 4 spirit has 8 armor. You shoot it with a pistol for 7P. The spirit doesn't even roll anything, the attack fails because 7 < 8. Same spirit, you hit it with a sword that ends up doing 10P. Now the spirit rolls its body + armor to resist that damage.

Posted by: deek Apr 30 2008, 06:12 PM

There's a reaction test in there, too. So, you can outright miss the spirit, hit the spirit but not get past its armor, or actually hit it.

Personally, I think it would be better if there was a downgraded effect when actually hitting the spirit. Even the big damage, it should be reduced by something if the spirit has immunity...

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 30 2008, 06:24 PM

Yes, as I stipulated in my examples, it was already having hit the spirit and thus have the damage of the attack.

From the start of the round, it would be attack test vs spirits defense test.
Then compare damage to spirits armor, if less than attack negated, if greater than continue.
Roll spirits body + armor vs attacks damage.
Spirit takes damage, mark condition monitor and note damage penalties.

Posted by: PalaNolho Apr 30 2008, 08:56 PM

So let me see if i got it:

This was what you were talking about right? so ANY spirit in phisical form has an Hardened Armor = Force x 2
Ok... now i see that Spirits are indeed fearse opponents lol

Posted by: PalaNolho May 1 2008, 03:45 PM

Another Question

Magic Initiation:
- does a character need to have 6 on MAgic to undergo Initiation?
- lets say i have buy 6 rank in magic but because of cyberware it decreses to 5. Can i enter initiation?

Spell

lets say i have 5 Body and i cast this spell on Body. It i want go get 10 body, i need to use force 10 or force 5 qhen casting the spell?



thanks

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 1 2008, 03:50 PM

No



Yes

Posted by: Nightwalker450 May 1 2008, 03:51 PM

Even people with Astral Sight, Spell Knack and Spirit Knack can initiate, and their magic never gets above 1.

Posted by: HentaiZonga May 1 2008, 03:52 PM

The way Initiation works is, you have to have a Magic rating equal to the grade you want to achieve. So, as long as you have a Magic of 1, you can Initiate. You'd have to have a Magic of 2 to Initiate twice, a Magic of 3 to Initiate 3 times, and so on. Each time you Initiate, it raises your attribute cap for Magic by 1.

So if you had a Magic of 6, you could Initiate 6 times (raising your cap to 12), and then you would have to spend Karma on raising Magic from 6 to 7 before you could Initiate again.

Posted by: Shiloh May 1 2008, 04:05 PM

Eek. I thought they were pretty scary when a F5 had 10 Armour to *roll*, but that looks like Immunity to Normal Weapons is a special/specific case of Immunity, and that makes 'em *right* scary! Small arms won't scratch 'em. Handy to know before tonight...

Posted by: deek May 1 2008, 04:07 PM

Which is why I've never understood why mages fear losing essence so much? Granted, my campaigns have pretty high karma rewards, so that could be a big difference in my perception.

Posted by: Shiloh May 1 2008, 04:08 PM

Heh. More old version assumptions catching up with me here. I had assumed Initiation added 1 to your Magic (and the cap).

Posted by: HentaiZonga May 1 2008, 04:13 PM

*nod* Making Magic a purchasable attribute was the best thing the developers ever did for Shadowrun. I wish I knew who's idea that was, so I could buy them a drink.

Posted by: Shiloh May 1 2008, 04:58 PM

Essence loss lowers the cap and can eventually burn the mage out entirely... Initiation past about 3 ranks should be rare, costly and difficult. You can't buy back that point lost from Essence damage.

Posted by: HentaiZonga May 1 2008, 05:02 PM

Realize, if you Initiate with a group and take an Ordeal every single time, you're paying the following to Initiate:

Grade 1 - 8 Karma
Grade 2 - 10 Karma
Grade 3 - 12 Karma
Grade 4 - 14 Karma
Grade 5 - 15 Karma

Past Grade 5, of course, you're generally better off just buying a new Metamagic technique outright. But to get from Grade 1 to 5 costs a minimum of 59 Karma - more if you build an Ally Spirit as one of your Ordeals.

Add onto this the cost of re-purchasing Magic (3 x new rating, so generally 15 to 18 to 'stay even'), and it can get pretty hefty.

Also: Your maximum Magic rating is equal to (Essence + Initiate Grade), round down, and your maximum Initiate grade is equal to your Magic rating.

Posted by: deek May 1 2008, 05:30 PM

Seeing I give out a base 10 karma per session, the limiting factor at my table is time, not to mention finding the mentor/group to initiate through.

I think I've got players with an average of 60-80 karma they haven't spent yet...yeah, things are different at my table.

Posted by: HentaiZonga May 1 2008, 05:34 PM

*nod* I used to Monty Hall my group's Karma, back in the day. According to Pg. 263 of the BBB, a good player should typically be getting about 5 Karma per session, maxing out to 11 if he does everything right and really shines in the process. 10's a little high, but not too terribly bad.

Keep in mind that there's a lot for an Awakened character to spend that on, though. I know my Mage typically blows through 18 Karma a pop just on Quickened spells and amusing Anchoring tricks.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 1 2008, 06:28 PM

Another Question:
- How many Sustaning focils can a character have active at same time?
- when using a sustaining focil to cast, the spell uses max force = focil power and the mage ad the force used from the focil to the spellcastin check or it uses his own magic atribut, but the force choosen cant be greater then the focil power?

About this spell:

Lets say i have 5 Body and i cast this spell on Body. It i want go get 10 body, i need to use force 10 or force 5 qhen casting the spell?



thanks

Posted by: Nightwalker450 May 1 2008, 06:33 PM

Logic Foci's active at one time. If I understand your second question... No you don't add the force of the foci to the casting, it just holds the cast spell.


It has to be cast at Force 5 (or higher, but our goal is 10 so 5 works). You just have to get 5 hits, and then these are added.

If you had a body of 4 and wanted to get to 10, you'd want to cast at Force 6, Force 4 would only get you to 8.

But you're still limited to Base * 1.5 for Max Attribute.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 1 2008, 10:02 PM

About Mystic Adepts:
- is there any restriction on the spellcasting skill rating? lets say, i have 4 Magic alocated for magic skills. can i have 5 ranks on Spellcastig ??

Posted by: Fortune May 2 2008, 12:20 AM

No such limitations. You could have a Magic of 1 for Sorcery/Conjuring purposes and still have a Spellcasting or Counterspelling or Summoning skill of 5 or 6.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 2 2008, 08:16 AM

Another Question

Adiction:
- i have a player with Addiction, Severe (Alcohol). this would give him -6 penalty if he dont drink regulary right?.
- the problem is that i cant find any description on the effect of alcohol on the characters. Drugs and other toxins usually give extra IP or pain tolerance or some increase on Atributs for a periud of time, what about alcohol? is there any description for it?

Mystic Adepts:
- can a mystic adept become a good char? or is just like a "jack of all trades"?

Posted by: HentaiZonga May 2 2008, 08:18 AM

Yes; it's called "Delirium Tremens" in real life.



well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

Posted by: PalaNolho May 2 2008, 08:20 AM

DANG !!! you are fast !! ive just hit the POST button and you already gave a replay lol

Posted by: Fortune May 2 2008, 08:26 AM

I think that the question is too subjective to properly answer with any degree of accuracy. It will vary widely from game to game and table to table. Mystic Adepts can be min-maxed to great effect, but only in a few limited areas. Don't discount the versatility and usefulness of those Jacks-of-All-Trades though, especially in games of more moderate power levels.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 2 2008, 07:19 PM

Another Question

Spirit Powers

- this affects only 1 target or "all" the enemy targets on LOS at same time ?
- a spirit in the astral plane can aply any power on a creature on the phisical plane?
- if a Materialized spirit i casts a continuous power on the caster then retours to the astral plane, does the effect of the power end on the caster?

Foci
a mage can have LOGIC focis active at same time. ok
- how many focis can he use at same time on a spell. Lets say, he will cast a Sustained spell. Can he use one Foci spellcasting ( to aid on the spellcasting) + foci spellcasting ( to aid on restid drain) + power foci + sustain foci ( tu sustain the spell) ????
- a power foci can be used to resist DV from spells ?
- a foci can only add the bonus to one roll? ( like the same foci add to the spellcasting and resist DV roll for a spell)

Spirits and Edge:
- do spirits use edge? in wich situation?
- can a mage ask a spirit to cast a spell with full power and eged with only one service ?


thanks

Posted by: Tarantula May 2 2008, 07:52 PM

Spirits can affect Force characters with powers at once. Not all.

Spirits can affect their summoners with powers from the astral plane, otherwise they must materialize.

On the caster no. On other characters...... I'm not sure.

Posted by: Fortune May 2 2008, 11:25 PM

Only one Focus can be used for any particular Magic test. It is perfectly valid to cast a spell using a Power Focus, then resist Drain with a Spellcasting Focus (ignoring the mistaken Errata for a moment), then sustain it with a Sustaining Focus. You just can't combine two or more on any one test.



If you are referring to Drain, then no, it cannot be used in that manner.



I don't recall any hard and fast rule on this, but I believe that a character can choose to use a Focus to either cast a spell or resist Drain, not both.



Basically, when the GM decided that they do. No other rules for this, but there are guidelines, like when the Summoner has a history of abusing Spirits and the like.



I don't believe that the summoner has any control over a Spirit's use of Edge. He can request the spell, and might even be able to impress upon the Spirit the urgency of the situation, and press the point that it is important to have maximum Power, but it is still up to the Spirit (or GM).

Posted by: PalaNolho May 3 2008, 08:30 PM

Question

Drones

- Every time the drone uses the flash-pak or smoke granade, does the player need to refill it with a normal flash-pak / smoke granade?
- is there any size reference for the drones? im getting dificult to defne the size of micro, smal, etc ...in visual terms.

Posted by: jklst14 May 3 2008, 10:16 PM

1. For the smoke grenade, I would say yes. For the flash-pak, I don't know. The bulbs may be burnt out after a single use or it may be reusable.
2. Arsenal page 102.
Microdrones (Body 0) - Insect sized
Minidrones (Body 1) - Large insect/mouse
Small Drone (Body 2) - Commlink/toaster to small dog sized
Medium Drone (Body 3) - Large dog to human to motorcycle
Large Drone (Body 4) - Motorcycle to small car

Posted by: PalaNolho May 4 2008, 10:00 AM

Another Question

Firearms Equipment

- does this mean that only weapons that ONLY shoot in SS or SA can use ir OR that any weapon CAPABLE OF shooting in SS or SA can use it?
- for instances, Ceska Black Scorpion (SA/BF) can it benefit from Silencer? what about Steyr TMP (SA/BF/FA) ???


Thanks

Posted by: Fortune May 4 2008, 10:34 AM

Machine Pistols and Submachine guns require a Sound Suppressor instead of a Silencer. Non-revolver pistols and SA or SS (only) rifles use a Silencer, while BF or FA class weapons use a Suppressor.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 4 2008, 10:52 AM

Guys (or girls) ... you are great this thread as become my SR bible ( sort of lol )

thanks alot ^_^

Posted by: PalaNolho May 4 2008, 11:30 AM

Question

- is there any restriction for the FOCI object? for instances, cna a Piercing be a FOCI? or an earing? or a ring, etc...
- what about fetiches?

Thanks

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 4 2008, 11:41 AM

The difficulty in enchanting foci is based on the object resistance (OR) of the original device. So, for example, enchanting a commlink as a power focus would be possible, but difficult, as the commlink has a high base OR. Thus, basic foci designs tend to be simple, durable, and low OR designs. Stuff like jewelry, small bits of metal, etc are common. There is no RAW limitation about the minimum size of the focus, tough by convention, more powerful foci are more ornate, etc. And yes, earings have been made into foci in canon.

From what I remember of the requirements for re-usable fetishes, they had to have 3 distinct characteristics. So something like: a foot long wand of holly with 'grofaz' carved into the side and having a piece of amethyst bound to the tip would work fine. Then, if you lost the fetish, you had to get another one with the same 3 distinct characteristics.

Posted by: Fortune May 4 2008, 11:42 AM

There is no real restrictions as far as exactly what items can be enchanted into Foci is concerned. Keep in mind though, that OR is important during the Enchanting process, as the more highly-processed the base item, the harder it is to enchant it successfully.

Posted by: Fortune May 4 2008, 11:45 AM

As far as I know, what you describe is actually the requirements for a Talisman, not a Fetish.

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 4 2008, 11:46 AM

This is why monowhip weapon foci are the especial cheese. Because the monowhip has such a high OR, it's quite difficult to enchant, though with the changes in rules from variable TN to fixed TN, enchanting the monowhip weapon focus is probably much easier.

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 4 2008, 11:49 AM

Erm, which ones were talismans, again?

Posted by: Fortune May 4 2008, 11:53 AM

A Talisman is an item that meets the requirements for using Geasa.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 4 2008, 04:14 PM

Then, if i get right,
- Focis and Fetichs can be any object.
- I presume that Fetich items are reusable right ?


regards.

Posted by: Fortune May 4 2008, 10:18 PM

Correct on both points.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 14 2008, 10:27 AM

Greetings everyone, long time no see How have you been?

Here am i again, with a question. An the question is... ( please some one sound the drums ... )

Melee Combat:
- is it possible in any way to make 2 melee attacks in one IP?
- is it possible to use, for example, a sword in each hand and attack with each one like we do with guns??

One of my players is making a troll with implants that make him take "immune" to physical damage or it will only take Stun damage (something like that, when i have the precise cyberware/equipment ill poist the details)

- is this possible? how can i go arround it in game? suggestions?


Regards and thanks in advance.

Posted by: Aaron May 14 2008, 02:00 PM

That's more than one question.

The answer is yes. You split your dice pool and use each portion for each attack. The specifics are in Arsenal.


Why would you want to go around it, assuming the player is actually using stuff from the rules? I mean, this is what the player wants his character's schtick to be. Would you want to build a character around a certain premise and have your GM actively try to work around that premise? Wouldn't you prefer to be allowed to have fun with your build?

But if the goal is, indeed, to disappoint and frustrate your player, then I'd recommend high AP weaponry, flamethrowers, and Direct Combat spells.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 14 2008, 02:41 PM

You got a point, but i think i didnt explain correcly my intentions. I mean, the objective of the game is to have fun, but there is no perfect/immortal character. And its no fun ( i think) if they can pass all the challanges without much swet (a good challange is more fun no?)
Im new to GMing so im trying to learn how to handle this situations. No intention to frustrate the players

Posted by: Nightwalker450 May 14 2008, 02:41 PM

I wouldn't worry about it too much, unless he has the Pain Editor as well. Trolls have much lower Stun tracks then they do physical tracks, so in the end he'll go down easier. You just have to deal enough damage to get it to stick... Speaking of stick, there's always tasers and Stick-n-Shock

Posted by: PalaNolho May 14 2008, 03:05 PM

How long can the pain editor be active? and how do you active it?( free, simple or complex action?)
One more thing,

Fetiches:
- one fetich can be used for all spells of a given type ( Combat for example) or the character must have a specific fetich for each spell (like one for manabolt, another to ignite, etc...)


Thanks for the help

Posted by: Aaron May 14 2008, 04:55 PM

After *mumblemumble* years of GMing Shadowrun, my suggestion would be to not bother with it. In situations it which the character will excel, he will excel. In situations in which the character will have trouble, he will have trouble. It will come up; no worries.

Also, don't forget that Mr. Johnson actually talks to people like fixers and others before hiring the team. Mr. J. has objectives, and he/she/it/they will hire a team that can achieve those objectives.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 15 2008, 07:53 AM

Some more questions

Pain Editor:
- How long can the pain editor be active? and how do you active it?( free, simple or complex action?)

Fetiches:
- one fetich can be used for all spells of a given type ( Combat for example) or the character must have a specific fetich for each spell (like one for manabolt, another to ignite, etc...)

Skillwire and Skillsoft:
"Skillwire systems allow the use of activesofts with a rating up to the skillwire rating. A skillwire system can handle a number of skillsofts with a total rating equal to its own rating x 2. Changing the current selection of skillsofts takes one Simple Action."

- lets say. i have Skillwire(3). i may have 2 autosoft(3) or 6 autosoft(1). Correct?
- how does the "Changing the current selection of skillsofts" work? the user has an data connector, places a "disc" inside and load the new set of skillsofts?
- once on the skillwire the autosofts are allways active right?



Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 15 2008, 08:08 AM

Pain Editor:
No real rules here. If I had to make the ruling myself, I'd say it can stay on indefinitely and is a 'non-action' to activate, just like you never have to spend and action to turn on your wired reflexes, or spend an action to you use your low light vision.

Fetiches:
Rules for fetishes not as well developed in 4th Ed, but I think it's the character's choice.

Skillwire and Skillsoft:
You could be storing a copy of the skill softs in the skillwires themselves (esentially unlimited data storage), but actually changing the skillsofts that are loaded up takes a simple action. If you are storing the skillsofts somewhere else, then your skillwires interface with that somewhere else either by wireless or skinlink. But really, it's safe to assume that a copy of the skillsofts are stored on the wires themselves, unless there is a reason for them not to be (just got out of prison, just got hacked, etc). If that is the case, you connect to your remote storage location via the matrix and spend a moment downloading the skillsofts again.

Posted by: Fortune May 15 2008, 08:46 AM

Nitpick: Skillsofts! Not Autosofts. Autosofts are for vehicles/drones.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 15 2008, 10:14 AM

right, that ! lol

its sill too much soft to my starting GM head ( i think i need a cerebral booster)

oh no .. im starting to make game jokes ... IM DOOMED

Posted by: PalaNolho May 15 2008, 10:29 AM

Bone Density Augmentation:
- does it efectivly increse the BODY or it just gives the a RATING bonus to body on Damage Resist Tests?

thanks

Posted by: Wasabi May 15 2008, 10:34 AM

Its there in the description. It adds to Body "for damage resistance tests."

Posted by: PalaNolho May 15 2008, 12:04 PM

Question:
- At character creation, the rule for Atribut purshes "Also, characters cannot have more than one attribute at their natural maximum." apply only to physical and mental attributs OR Magic and Edge are included for this maximum too??



Thanks

Posted by: ArkonC May 15 2008, 12:10 PM

Since it's under the header of Physical/Mental Attributes, I'd say it only applies to those...

Posted by: PalaNolho May 16 2008, 09:01 AM

Question

Sustaining Focis
- how does a Sustaining Foci stops sustanning a spell or is disrupted? ( voluntary or involuntary)
- how long can a Sutaining Focis sustain a spell?

thanks

Posted by: DireRadiant May 16 2008, 03:26 PM

p. 191

"A character must activate a focus before it can be used. It
takes a Simple Action to activate a focus, but requires no action
to use or apply. Weapon foci require a Complex Action to
use like any other melee weapon. Deactivating a focus is a Free
Action and can be done at any time.'

Free action to stop sustaining the spell by the caster, either dropping the spell, or deactivating teh focus

Counterspelling p. 176

"Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained
or quickened spell, canceling its eff ect. Th e character
must be on the same plane, must be able to perceive the spell
she is targeting, and must use a Complex Action."

You can also attack the focus astrally which deactivates the focus, or can destroy it depending on how it is attacked (Energy Drain for example).

e.g. Passing through Barriers p. 186

Spells are sustained until dropped, dispelled, or the focus deactivated or destroyed.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 17 2008, 03:03 PM

Grettings everyone. Here i am again with lots of tricky questions (hopefully this questions will be helpful to other persons too)

Last Night we had sessin and some questions came to the table.

Magic
The mage started to cast combat spells and it looked like that spellcasting was too powerfull or we were doing something wrong. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Combat spells (lets say a Direct Spell)
- mage chooses a force. Then makes a spellcasting check oposed by body/will (depepending if M or P type spell)
The hits scored co the Spellcasting oposed test is the minimun between rolled Hits and Force choosen
IF the spellcaster gets AT LEAST ONE NET HIT the spell takes effect, if not, it has no effect on the target.
If the Spellcasting is a sucess, then the Target take CHOOSEN FORCE + NET HITS damage boxes
Is this correct, or am i doing anything wrong? (it looks very powerfull and capable of killing jut anything )

Invisibility
One of my players casts an great invisibility spell on him and Starts attacking the NPC with a monofilament whip.
Does the NPC can dodge the attack (i.e, oposed attack/defence test)?
What if he was shooting a gun?

If the target is completly anaware of the attack, the attacker still roll attack and sum ALL HITS to the DV of the attack, OR ir gives the standard weapon damage?

Can a mage use Invisible Spell + Inviltration? how does it work? (if you are tryingto moove silently or to move unseen)


Well .. this was the main debate of the last session. If anyone can help, i would be apreciated

Thanks in Advance!!

Posted by: Crusher Bob May 18 2008, 07:24 AM

Yes, you have the rules for direct combat spells down pat. If you are a high magic mage, and want to whip out a force 9+ spell, then it will basically toast someone if you get 1 net hit. On the other hand, even a force 9 stunbolt is going to have 3P drain, even if you have 12dice to resist the drain, you take some damage around 18% of the time. Ramp that up to a force 9 manaball and you are looking at 6 drain, which you fully resist with 12 dice only around 18% of the time. Compared to just whipping out a grenade launcher and shooting twice, its not that great. Since the GL will cause about the same amount of damage (i.e. death) but will not cause you any drain. In addition, the astral signature for a spell with high force will stick around for a while. While grenade fragments are just grenade fragments.

Remember also that visibility modifiers effect spellcasting as well, so you are probably looking at a few dice off for lighting and cover.

For attacks that you are completely unaware of, you don't get even your passive defense. So you just total up the attackers hits to add to the base DV of the weapon he is using. Note that one someone has shot or cut you once, you can hardly be completely unaware of their presence. Note that if you are in combat already, I'd assume that you are moving around a lot already, so you may want to give the attacked guy his regular defense against the invisible guy anyway. But if you are just walking around and suddenly there is an invisible guy laying into you, you don't get to defend.

You still have body odor, make noises, set off pressure sensors, etc while invisible, so infiltration tests should be made to reduce the noises you make moving around. The advantage of being invisible is that hearing has a much shorter range than sight. Note that invisibility is a common thing in 2070, so expect any competently setup security system to have multiple ways of finding invisible guys.

Posted by: Cain May 18 2008, 08:37 AM

We had a thread on this recently.

Basically, if the invisible attacker has surprise, the other guy doesn't get to defend. However, invisibility does not equal surprise. If someone disappears before your eyes, you know he's coming for you. In that case, you apply the -6 Blind Fire modifier if in ranged combat, and the suggested house rule to to also use that in melee. Also note that when attacking an invisible opponent at range, you roll Ranged + Intuition instead of Ranged + Quickness. Some people here suggest doing a similar thing in melee.

Posted by: PalaNolho May 25 2008, 04:47 PM

hmmm i can always use Astral Perception to see the insible enemy right ?
and while Astrally Perceving he can still shoot at the invisible enemy ( with a -2 modifier) or cast spells on him with mo penalty, right ?

Posted by: Fortune May 25 2008, 07:31 PM

You would still have to deal with some Visibility (and Cover) modifiers when using Astral Perception/Projection.

For example, darkness isn't as much of a factor, but things like smoke are still opaque when viewed via the Astral.

Posted by: MaxHunter May 26 2008, 03:37 PM

but, yes, astral perception sees invisible people. Happened last session in my game.

Incidentally, at my gaming groups we have decided to up the drain of direct combat spells by +1 (or was it +2?, i think 1...) to make them more balanced in our eyes to indirect combat spells...

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: PalaNolho Jun 2 2008, 01:04 PM

Greetings everyone.
I've looked on the book but didnt found my answer so, here's the question:

Contacts
- how can a character improve the loyalty and connection of a contact he posesses ?

loyalty i can imagin (some roleplay, some favors, some help and it will improve) but connections, anyone has any idea ?

thanks in advance.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jun 2 2008, 01:53 PM

Connections can't be improved, at least not in any way that would make sense in-game. If your local weapons dealer isn't working out, dump him and pay your fixer to find you a better one.

Posted by: PalaNolho Jun 2 2008, 01:59 PM

and if the fixes is not working out too?
what about if they need a fixer with better connections?

, thanks

Posted by: Fortune Jun 2 2008, 02:08 PM

A Contact's Connection Rating reflect's that Contact's (not the character's) 'network' or influence. Typically, things would have to change in the Contact's life for his Connection Rating to change. As such, this kind of thing is typically pretty much in the hands of the GM, but I'm sure that imaginative and motivated characters could lend a hand to help their Contacts 'move up' in the world.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jun 2 2008, 02:11 PM

That's where the GM needs to show some flexibility with the fixer's connections ratings. How I handle that kind of thing is to have one of my players pay the fixer an exorbitant amount of nuyen and the fixer can then grease some gears and introduce a new, higher-connection contact. But this should be done sparingly and with solid reasons. It wouldn't make sense for a fixer who specializes in magical gear to have the number for a military-grade gun runner in his Rolodex.

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jun 2 2008, 02:16 PM

When I was GMing, one of my runners had a Lone Star officer of connection 1 as a contact. He's fed this contact some tips on a recent attack at a Stuffer Shack (Food Fight 4.0). With the only stipulation being that he didn't want to be pulled in for anything (he did decent enough at staying out of camera sight). The officer is now on the edge of a promotion, and will probably get a connection upgrade soon.

Posted by: JeffSz Jun 2 2008, 02:19 PM

Finally I know what IIRC means.

Posted by: Wesley Street Jun 2 2008, 02:22 PM

Hey, that's a great idea for any contact who is part of a large bureaucratic organization. Thanks!

Posted by: Nightwalker450 Jun 2 2008, 02:31 PM

You can also have some of the "I need you to do me a favor" side missions, that as a result up the contacts connection. One of the other people I'm running with right now, keeps trying to get drugs for one of his dealer contacts. He's trying to get a more powerful and higher connected list of friends. I don't know how well its working for him (so far he's been caught in one drug bust but nothing more than fined, and it was on foreign soil anyways)

Posted by: PalaNolho Jun 3 2008, 09:45 AM

How do you usually handle the contacts? i mean, the knowledges that the contacts have nad ranks. You let the PCs create the contact using the character build process? you tell hte players to choose from the "exemple ones" from the BBB?


Also, about legwork, when the PC contact the contact, then usually make the questions by commlink or they need to arrange a meeting?
the NPC are only able to give answers for free on topics related with their knowlege skills or for any information?

Im trying to flesh out the NPC a little mor, because right now, we are using them as a streight forward aprouch ( contact him, make questions any question, he answers depending on the roll, for mor information he will search and they will have to pay)

Any ideas/suggestions/tips/anything?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 3 2008, 10:09 AM

One of the simplest ways to give some life to contacts is have them call you every now and them. So maybe your guys needs some muscle for something, or wants your expert opinion, or is just having a unicorn BBQ and wants to know if you want to show up.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 3 2008, 11:44 AM

Give your NPCs some life by adding standard procedures. Ie some will only meet in the matrix, some will never do that, some will always meet in the same place, some in different parts of town.

Connect the connections to each other. Syndicate connection, family, friends... you ask one contact for something, and a close friend of said contact calls you with an offer or requests a meet.

In our campaigns, there are GM and player-made contacts.
- as the GM, I provide quite a large set of contacts everyone knows depending on what fits the backstory, for free. Use it or loose it. The idea is to get an overall smaller set of contacts more time in the spotlight. There is no need for two fixers and one streetdoc PER PLAYER, that is just information overload.
- the players can make up their own contacts, but those are not free and still subject to my approval. If they did not write even a few lines on them, I get to flesh them out.

On a contact you need:
Name, Place of Living/Center of Operations
Faction allegiances
Physical Description
Standard Operational Procedures

Example:
Justin Right, Snohomish/Redmond
Mafia (Finnigan)
middle aged human, well-groomed
Operates a weapons shop in Redmond, has illegal stuff in warehouses rather than in the shop, does not touch milspec

I know where the NPC can usually be found, he knows and cares about the groups mafia connections, contacts from his mafia family refer to him when asked about weapons. The more often he is used by the players, the more detailed the information about him gets.
I even hand out the baseline information to my players, as it helps them interact with the available contacts and fleshes the gameworld out. Their sheet has the information they are supposed to know; I as the GM might have decided that good old Justin is secretly working with the Vory, but they have to find out.
Now if you need more than Justin wants to deliver, he will still know where you can search for the goods. Assume that each contact knows people within the same or a connected area of expertise - the big fish, competition, small-timers. He´ll help you if you make it worth his while.

Posted by: PalaNolho Jun 4 2008, 05:51 AM

What about Legwork? when the PCs contact the Contacts, you only give them free information related to the Knowledge skills the NPC has or it only dependes on the information roll?
Charging money will occur when the NPCs dont know or the knowledge roll is not enough and the PCs want more info, right ?

thanks

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 4 2008, 06:48 AM

Depends on how much effort the contact has to go through. Asking your street doc to autopsy this body and find out what killed it means that he will have to take some time and effort. Asking him what he knows off the top of his head about the Doom anti-body based bioweapon is a much simpler and cheaper question.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 4 2008, 02:44 PM

And asking him how to fix your alternator will probably be fairly futile.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 4 2008, 03:39 PM

Two dimensions: Can your Contact help? What does the Contact demand?

Can your contact help?
I mostly decide what the contact knows/can do, no dice involved. Available time may be a major concern. Building something or analysing security logs takes time. There might be risk involved that the Contact will not face, like working against her own syndicate.

What does the contact demand?
Depends on the loyality, the risk, the necessary investment of time and money. Giving you contact data for a competitor has a rather high cost in the form of lost future revenue (expensive), while giving you said data on someone in a merely related field is money made on other peoples work (cheap).

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jun 5 2008, 04:30 AM

When I asked my street doc to fix my alternator, I got my car back with this cool bio-engineered electrical squid strapped to the engine. All I have to do is keep the saltwater tank full, and feed it from time to time and it works great!