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Posted by: nathanross Apr 20 2008, 09:52 PM

Okay, now I gave one of my players a minigun to help clear out a ghoul nest and it was totally fucking worthless. It is only useful for suppressive fire? How can you really make use of it when you suffer a -15DP to shoot it? Also, how much recoil compensation do drones have? He also has a Lynx with a Vindicator, and for it to shoot with recoil means it has no dice left to hit. Please help!

Posted by: Aaron Apr 20 2008, 10:02 PM

You say "only useful for suppressive fire" like it's a bad thing.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 20 2008, 10:10 PM

It would seem (p. 105, Arsenal) that vehicle-mounted weapons don't suffer recoil modifiers.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Apr 20 2008, 10:26 PM

Some weapons aren't actually intended to be man portable. But mounted on a vehicle, they're awesome.

(Although I apply the option rule that a vehicle's body equals its recoil compensation, to keep people from slapping minis on small drones.)

Posted by: Larme Apr 20 2008, 10:30 PM

Get a gyro (7), a gas vent 3 (3) (which costs the same despite the six barrels), a shock pad (1), a personalized grip (1), and a heavy barrel (1). That leaves you with just a -2. Now, it's kinda weird that a heavy barrel for 6 barrels, and a gas vent system for 6 barrels would actually cost the same as normal, but that's something you need to handwave to make the gun at all useful to people on foot. Which I think it should be, because it's a really cool weapon and will add style to the game, and it's already harder to shoot with less brute force than an HMG, so it's not worth nerfing.

Posted by: Cabral Apr 20 2008, 10:31 PM

Miniguns should be used for suppressive fire (combined with grenades into opponent's cover) or with gyro stabilization harnesses. You can get an impressive amount of recoil compensation on a minigun if you try. I don't have my books with me, so I can't give you exact numbers.

Of course, the alternative is to suck up the DP mod, shut off your smartlink, blindfold yourself and throw down some edge.

Posted by: Squinky Apr 20 2008, 10:49 PM

Don't forget the rules for strength adding into recoil reduction.

Posted by: Fortune Apr 20 2008, 10:51 PM

In my world Miniguns cannot accept barrel mounts (including gas vents).

Posted by: Squinky Apr 20 2008, 10:52 PM

Which is something I wonder about, there are no other miniguns but the vindicator, even though they have a cool black box describing how they work. Am I just missing the minigun mod? Cause is sure seems like there should be one.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 20 2008, 11:02 PM

I agree with Fortune, miniguns can not have barrel mounts with gas vents, despite what you see in the Cinema, you can not hand carry and fire one of these beasts. Vehicle Mount are the way to go.

WMS

Posted by: HentaiZonga Apr 20 2008, 11:09 PM

...unless you're a troll.

Posted by: Raven Bloodeyes Apr 20 2008, 11:12 PM

Agreed, after all the description on how they work, I couldn't find a way to mod anything else into a minigun.... a minigun shotgun would just be cool!!!

Posted by: HentaiZonga Apr 20 2008, 11:13 PM

Hell, just load it with blanks - the sound alone should be sufficient to stun people into submission.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 20 2008, 11:19 PM

it's all just a matter of practice, really *g*
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3174/2352651999_d364a703df_o.jpg

but yes, Miniguns are a bitch to handle . . they were frigging useless in SR3, because getting recoil compensation was harder back then. .
and why the hell does the recoil from strength table go to *thinks* 6, 12, 18 or 24? it's impossible to get a Strength of 18, let alone 24 . . well, okay, with redlining, maybe, but still!

Posted by: CanRay Apr 20 2008, 11:50 PM

Well, depends on the situation... If you need to spray the crawler drones, then some 'Runners, then some 'copter drones, then the ceiling, then your own 'copter drones, then your own Posse, then your own crawler drones, then take a nap, it's great!

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 20 2008, 11:53 PM

Nice Stunt Photo.

Last thing you need is to stand in one place braced for the recoil. Some Twink Sniper put you into a Body Bag.

With all that muzzled Flash seeing things not directly in front of you will be interesting.

WMS

Posted by: krakjen Apr 20 2008, 11:59 PM

Actually, from Arsenal:

It hardly go over 18, but even a troll with maxed out strength can't really go that high anyway...

Posted by: Larme Apr 21 2008, 12:38 AM

I don't think there's any reason to nerf miniguns. Per RAW, they can accept barrel mounts. Why does the fact that modern miniguns are not man portable mean anything for a 2070 minigun? I would note that modern miniguns do not have gyromounts available, and I'm sure that gas vents will be more advanced in the future. Yes, it's true that modern miniguns can't be fired by people on foot, but neither can a Vindicator, at least not without a full body harness that only partially compensates it... And miniguns lack the brute power of even an HMG, which can accept every mod. You're just telling your players "you can't use the cool thing in a cool way because I'm stuck back here in 2008 and am unwilling to suspend my disbelief even one iota for the sake of cinema." Way to go

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 12:50 AM

"In order to get a Vindicator, your character has to be as cool as the Terminator. That way, I can suspend disbelief enough for cinema."

"Terminator 3?"

"No, either T1 or T2."

"Damn, harder to do. ... OK, to start with, I need a bike. I find a biker bar, and take everyone in it out to steal a single bike."

Posted by: krakjen Apr 21 2008, 01:13 AM

But only if you go naked and steal also some leather clothing, shades and a cool shotgun.

Posted by: Fortune Apr 21 2008, 01:38 AM

I made no comment as to portability. I also made no comment in reference to canon. I merely made a statement about barrel mounts and miniguns. In SR3 (and nowadays I assume), miniguns could not accept barrel mounts in the vein of gas-vents and the like, and this is how things work in my SR4 games.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 01:40 AM

Sure why not, screw the minigun, why not let the Uber Mega Troll have the 20mm Vulcan Rotary Auto Cannon or a 16 Naval Rifle off the New Jersey.

Look at the HVAR Assault Rifle is specifically states no barrell mounted accesories.

BUT WAIT!!!!!
emphasis mine
RAW Page 142
Heavy Weapons: Any weapon classified as heavy weapon (light, medium, and heavy machine guns and all assault cannons), has all of its uncompensated recoil doubled.....

That means even Big Bubba the War Troll with Uber Munchkin Str and Bod will be having issues with the uncompensated recoil of a minigun.

What is the max compensation you can stack on a weapon that fires 15 rounds or 30 rounds

Lets see
Gas Vent 3 (2 slots)
Gyro Stabilization 6
Shock Pad 1
Electronic Firing 1 (2 slots)
Heavy Barrel 1 (3 slots) not used to slots
Smartgun Link 91 (1 slot)
Strength of 18 4
So we have a recoil compensation of 15 which means unless the firer has a strength of 18+ there will be some uncompensated recoil which will be doubled this is for only firing 15 rounds.

Suppressive fire of 30 rounds means in the above example has 14 points of uncompensated recoil, doubled to a -28 die mod to hitting any target.

Talk about a 1 Trick Pony.

Screw carrying and firing, mount it to a vehicle.

WMS

Posted by: krakjen Apr 21 2008, 01:47 AM

Ahem.

What recoil?

Posted by: Clyde Apr 21 2008, 03:29 AM

Miniguns are great for suppressive fire and drone mounting. Against insect spirits they'd be handy because the spirit generally has to close to melee with you and might try coming in swarms. Also, minigun suppressive fire does base damage X 1.5 if it hits which is pretty sweet.

Miniguns would also be good for wrecking barriers and structures, given that damage against those is 2DV per bullet fired.

On a gyromount, I'd use one if I expected to perform some awesome surprise attack. I can't see how you'd surprise someone with a gun that takes a turn to spin up and makes so much noise, though . . . . Maybe a vehicle ambush or something.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 03:38 AM

Unless you have a strength of 18 to get a 4 points of recoil reduction, carrying and firing a mini gun means you will take at least a -2 to hit and more than likely alot more even firing a normal burst.

A suppressive fire burst with the best recoil compensation still gives you -28 dice to hit the broad side of a Obese Troll. Even Mr Lucky would have a hard time hitting with that much negative dice.

WMS

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 03:46 AM

You know, a gattling gun's rate of fire is based on the rotational speed of the barrels. Which, in turn, is based on the speed of the electric motor, which is based on the current provided to it by the batteries (Which geek FAR too quickly, BTW.).

You could just set in a simple rheostat to slow down the rate of fire to a more manageable level. You don't *NEED* to have the Vindicator spit out the rounds at a cyclical rate of 5000-rounds per minute.

You could bring it down to a more manageable level. Sure, it's not as bad ass, and that "Vindicator Spin" will sound slower and deeper, so it won't be exactly like it is on the Trid, but at least you're not slotting off the random flying dragon getting pelted with stray bullets.

Posted by: DTFarstar Apr 21 2008, 03:52 AM

Natural limit raised by 1 from Improved Attribute + Natural limit raised by 1 from Genetic Optimization + 10 Normal Max + 6 Augmented Str = 18 Str Troll, so I guess the chart went that high because that is the highest you can get with a character without redlining.

Chris

Posted by: DTFarstar Apr 21 2008, 03:53 AM

WMS, Suppressive Fire is not subject to recoil penalties.

Chris

Posted by: Daier Mune Apr 21 2008, 05:01 AM

Gatling guns aren't designed for precice shooting IRL, so i don't see why they should in game.

Posted by: IQ Zero Apr 21 2008, 05:14 AM

Oh my, I feel like my groups are so deprived, none of us (as players) have ever owned (legally or otherwise) a gatling gun.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 05:17 AM

Ok Found it.

WMS

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Apr 21 2008, 05:27 AM

Ninja edit Was just about to reply.

Posted by: Kerberos Apr 21 2008, 05:46 AM

Sure they can, they just need improved attribute and gene optimization.
Bah, I got beat to it I see.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Apr 21 2008, 06:05 AM

If you really need the rate of fire, why not just carry a mg scale http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_cannon instead? That way you don't have to carry around all those extra barrels. And since you are carrying it around, it's not like you will have enough ammo to overheat the barrel anyway. Of course, you could just carry an MG-3 and still get ~1200 rpm for a whole lot less weight, cost, and headache.

Posted by: crizh Apr 21 2008, 08:57 AM

I've always disliked that. I ain't a military type but that always seemed wrong to me. Assuming an LMG uses the same caliber rounds as a big Assault Rifle, just fires them from a belt, it should suffer less recoil per round.

Recoil should be determined by caliber and heavier weapons ought to reduce the penalties.

My kids were watching something on Discovery a few weeks ago that featured a Minigun. To be fair it was vehicle mounted but the impression I got was that the Gyroscopic forces generated by spinning the barrels improved accuracy. I seem to recall someone saying that doubling cyclic rof to 3000 improved accuracy 10 fold over a normal HMG.

I remember watching a sequence where they were circling a bunch of cars in the desert at night and unloading this thing with tracer ammo. I distinctly recall thinking 'I wouldn't want to be a Runner taking cover in there.'

Scary biscuits.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 21 2008, 09:42 AM

That's a movie prop from Resident Evil: Apocalypse, presented by the gunsmith...

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 21 2008, 10:35 AM

And a foregrip makes -1, but I'd argue that the shock pad isn't going to add to the gyro harness, and IIRC, the minigun section says it can't have barrel mounts (not near my book so can't check).


Heavy barrel is [weapon cost] IIRC, so that makes sense.

But if they're only good for suppressive fire, that's not *such* a problem: heard in a cinema after Arnie (goes menkul with it in Predator) "That's a shit-hot way to cut the grass!". I think the problem is that they're not as good at suppressive fire as an HMG, either. So why bother? Which is a shame.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 21 2008, 10:54 AM

My buddy of mine has a character with a minigun. We use the RAW of allowing gas vents, so he's got -3 for that and the gyro-harness. His Agility is 8 and Heavy Weapons 5 I think, so he gets 13(15 dice with smartlink). His Strength is 7, so he managed the extra +1. So he compensates for 11 points of recoil; the last 4 rounds doubled still gives -8, but he throws 7 dice still to try to hit stuff with it. It's not bad at all and usually the sight of someone with a damn minigun is enough to make the opposition think twice.

Posted by: Critias Apr 21 2008, 11:57 AM

Think twice about what? All I'd be thinking was "manabolt/shoot/stab this guy first."

Some guns are just so big I don't see a reason to mount them on a person instead of the drone, not just for recoil compensation purposes, but simply because it's going to be an instant fire magnet.

Posted by: GrepZen Apr 21 2008, 12:24 PM

I recall that the mini used in preadator was modified to use .22 rounds as anuthing larger made it impossible to manuver & fire but Jesse "Sgt. Slaughter/The Body" Ventura. Jesse is big but, he ain't no troll so if it can work IRL I don't see why it can't be modded in SR for man portable use. At worst (stat wise) it would be similar to a machine pistol, just with a greater ROF and no conceal.

Posted by: Daier Mune Apr 21 2008, 03:02 PM

the minigun in predator was a movie prop that fired blanks, and it's power source was actualy off camera (run through a cable in Ventura's pants), so it didn't acutaly work IRL.

Posted by: Shiloh Apr 21 2008, 03:53 PM

Pace Daier Mune's entirely valid points (which I'll handwave away by saying that Mr Ventura didn't have a 2050s gyroharness...), you're mistaking calibre for power Machine pistols mostly come in 9mm pistol-ammunition variants. *Assault Rifles* and LMGs are mostly .22 (5.56mm) these days, but they use a much longer cartridge and so have greater muzzle energy.

Not that cartridge type means a fat lot in a game that has "rounds" that fit any weapon smaller than a Cannon...

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 21 2008, 04:25 PM

Actually, with a tripod, (instead of a gyro harness) one is able to get full recoil compensation on the minigun without need of strength enhancement.

Tripod 6
Gas vent 3
Folding Stock 1
Electronic Firing or Personalized Grip 1
Cyberarm Gyromount 3
= 14 RC, and able to fire full auto from the Vindicator with no penalty. Of course, then you have to lug a tripod around and set it up.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 04:33 PM

Which is the reason for the Vindicator, really. It's a Crew-Served Weapon after all.

I mean, how many Shadowrunners go around lugging a M2-HB .50 BMG Heavy Machine Gun?

...

I just gave Troll players an idea, didn't I?

Posted by: krakjen Apr 21 2008, 05:07 PM

That would be the Stoner-Ares M107 I guess.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 05:22 PM

Yep! Or the Ultimax HMG-2.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 21 2008, 05:28 PM

THere'S the Barret Sniper Rifle, basically the same weapon only in bolt action single shot or single auto, i ain't really sure . . and there's enough trolls lugging around Heavy MG's *g*
Edit: hmm . . could one adapt the Barret or however that thing is spelled for Burst-Fire or Full-Auto? O.o

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 05:37 PM

Much different weapon! The Barret Anti-Material Rifle is not a Heavy Machine Gun, it's "Just" Semi-Auto. Which, frankly, when you're talking about .50 BMG, is bad enough!

There's also Bolt-Action AMRs in the same calibre. The world Sniper's Record was just made recently in Afganistan, BTW, by a Canadian Soldier using one of those. (2,430 metres on the second shot. The first hit a bag in the hands of the target!).

The previous record was 2,250 metres, set by a U.S. Marine in Vietnam.

But, yeah, a Burst-Fire Barret would be killer, even for a Troll!

Posted by: IC-Pick Apr 21 2008, 06:53 PM

I always disagreed with the uncompensated recoil on heavy weapons being doubled as well. Judging from RL weapons and SR damage codes, it would seem that:

LMG's are normal AR caliber weapons ie the SAW which is a support maghinegun that fires the same .223 that an m16 uses
MMG's are heavier rifle caliber weapons used in most good sniper rifles and hunting weapons, ie the m60 utilizing .308's
HMG's would be the 50 calibers and the like.

If i have uncompensated recoil from my m16, I would expect alot more 'felt' recoil than with a SAW, due simply to the lack of weight of the m16 comparatively.

Posted by: Ed_209a Apr 21 2008, 06:59 PM

I think it would be relatively simple for a trained machinist/gunsmith to adapt a Barrett M82 for autofire. I just can't see why. You would give up the M82's main asset, long range precision, if you fired it full-auto. The weapon might tear itself apart too.

Anyone strong enough and massive enough to manage the M2's recoil won't mind the M2's weight. (90lbs + ammo)

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 21 2008, 07:25 PM

no you would not . . with enough recoil-compensation you add the burst/fa-damage to the precision . . and if anything, i would try to ADD that mode instead of replacing SA with BF or FA . . maybe for those time when you need to make one desperate attempt to make something not like being where you're aiming at . . one of those edge-situations maybe for example *g*

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 07:26 PM

That's what I was thinking.

I can just see some NAN Troll Soldier with an ancient M2HB modified for personal use with a Pistol Grip and a Shoulder Brace. Probably working with the Wildcats...

Posted by: ornot Apr 21 2008, 09:23 PM

Is the tripod RC stackable with gyromount RC?

I seem to recall there was quite a lot of stuff that would not stack according to Arsenal, but I don't have my book with me to check.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 21 2008, 09:30 PM

i don't really know why it would stack . .

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 21 2008, 09:37 PM

I didn't include a gyromount in my recoil figures. Rather, a cyberarm gyromount. Which is in fact a gyro system built into the cyberarms wrist, which would stabilize the users arm more so than the gun, which is where I believe the bonus comes from. Also, I did check with arsenal, and they do stack by RAW.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 21 2008, 10:50 PM

hmm . . would 2 cyber-arm gyromounts and the gyromount harness stack?

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 21 2008, 11:05 PM

No. The cyberarm gyromount states it is not cumulative with the harness. I'd even argue that 2 arm mounts don't work together, but nothing forbids it. Hrm, one cyberarm with 3 cyberarm gyromounts anyone? +9RC in the arm? (Hell, make it a bulky arm and it can fit 4 for a +12 in your cyberarm alone!)

Its too good if you let it stack with itself, thats why I don't think it does.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 11:39 PM

If you are using a Tripod, gyro mounts(Harness or Arms) not attached to the tripod do not stack. Weapon mount gyrostabilizaton is a different matter.

Stacking a Tripod with any Gyro mount is PURE CHEESE.

WMS

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Apr 21 2008, 11:40 PM

The Best part is with the Military Armor you can put in cyberarm gyromounts in, and not have to worry about the essence.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 21 2008, 11:45 PM

Hrm, interesting.... Looking it over, the harness is called gyro-stabilization, and the cyberarm is a gyromount. So, a strict reading, you can't combine tripod + cyberarm gyromount, but you can combine a tripod + gyro-stabilization harness.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 21 2008, 11:47 PM

Stick the Gyro-Harness onto the Tripod, and there you go. Better degrees of fire! Like the old Anti-Aircraft set-ups for Bren Guns.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 11:47 PM

Augmentation page 148
Emphasis mine

Note gyromounts is not defined by "some" interpretations. To me it means all gyromounts, harness, arms and weapons gyromounts.

WMS

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 11:49 PM

Obviously some here do not know what gyrostablizaton is and how it works.

WMS

Posted by: WearzManySkins Apr 21 2008, 11:55 PM

RAW page 311
emphasis mine

Says Gyro-mount to me. So it does not stack with tripods.

WMS

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 21 2008, 11:59 PM

Yes wearz, that is the exact passage I was referring to. Gyromount = Cyberarm Gyromount. Gyro-Stabilization = Harness. Though, Looking at it again, the tripod and harness both take the "Under" slot, and so aren't compatible either.

Edit: You posted while I was looking in the books. The Harness is not named a gyro-mount, but it is described as one. Regardless, they don't work because they take the same slot.

Posted by: Daier Mune Apr 22 2008, 04:22 AM

oh i think that a troll with a gyro-harness could heft and fire a vindicator, but they're still going to suffer recoil when firing at things. technology may have progressed over 70 years, but the laws of physics remain the same.

as for heavy barrels and gas vents on a gattling gun, i'd only allow it if the cost was mulitplied by the number of barrels. its only fair.

Posted by: aussie elf Apr 22 2008, 05:24 AM

It can be useful but you have to "want it" as a friend says. For a man potable way to use the Vindicator it MUST be used with a gyro harness. A character I've had been playing for a long time got one. With skill 5 + 8 modified agil. and a 6 mod. strength (one point of natural recoil comp.) you start with zero dice. Then you add the gyro and if you have the money a smart link and you can have 8 dice to hit something with 20P, or take away 14 defense dice from the target with a wide burst.
Now because there are more efficient and cheaper ways to shoot stuff I refer you to the begining of the post, "you have to want it", I know I did

Posted by: Critias Apr 22 2008, 06:53 AM

For the record -- just as a child of the 80's, I have to clear this up -- Jesse Ventura wasn't Sgt. Slaughter. The two were completely different wrestler/entertainers, who both just happened to have ridiculously awesome giant chins to match their steroid-enhanced muscles.

Posted by: IC-Pick Apr 22 2008, 03:59 PM

Lol, I was going to if you didn't!

Posted by: DocTaotsu Apr 22 2008, 04:26 PM

Well technically speaking... with magic having returned in 2012...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 04:32 PM

That's a way to do it! Get a Troll Mage to make a Spell that handles the Recoil. Then he handles the bloody thing like it was a really fast assault rifle!

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 04:34 PM

You mean enhance aim?

Though, with double uncompensated recoil, an actual recoil comp spell would be better.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 04:36 PM

An actual Recoil Comp spell would be better indeed. Then lock an Enhance Aim spell, and there you go! Sniping and firing Full-Auto at the same time!

Whereupon we have the third spell: "Transmute Security Goon To Hamburg"

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 22 2008, 04:40 PM

hmm . . would levitate keep the minigun in place if you were to fire it? would you let the force or net successes of levitate count as recoil compensation? O.o

Posted by: ornot Apr 22 2008, 04:46 PM

I'm pretty sure the force dictates the strength of the telekinesis spell.

To have a high enough strength to reach the RC thresholds in Arsenal you're looking at bloody high force.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 22 2008, 04:49 PM

hrm, probably . . but a STR6 spell with the 6 hits would lift 6x200 kilo or something . . but STR6 would only generate a Recoil Compensation of 1 @.@

Posted by: IC-Pick Apr 22 2008, 06:41 PM

Actually, Im not sure that it translates... Not that I am at home with my books, but I think that levitate is able to carry alot more than someone of force strength. If you went with more specific parameters, note that I have designed a spell since the grimoire lol, but, you could go with physical, personal only, and have it augment your strength only with regards to recoil... minor mind interaction to know what you want to do as you do it without taking an action to command it to move your arms.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 07:02 PM

Levitate can't shoot the gun, thats what magic fingers is for. And that'd take a high force to get useful RC out of it.

Posted by: IC-Pick Apr 22 2008, 07:35 PM

Actually levitate was to hold the weapon steady. You would still be pulling the trigger.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 08:14 PM

And I'd argue again, levitate is not for fine control. You can hold the gun up yes, but working with levitate to accurately aim it near anything is beyond the control of the levitate spell. Thats what magic fingers is for.

Posted by: IC-Pick Apr 22 2008, 08:21 PM

Oh right, gotcha, I wasn't using levitate itself, but thinking of it as a basis for a new spell. I imagine Magic fingers would work well as a base as well, it has the fine control, but levitate has the strength. Either would need altering.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 22 2008, 08:23 PM

Magic Hands, more Fine-control than Levitate, more Power than magic Fingers, less Power than Levitate, less Fine-control than magic fingers

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 08:24 PM

So many jokes... Just... So many.

Too easy.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 22 2008, 08:28 PM

bring 'em all, you know you want to *g*

Posted by: CanRay Apr 22 2008, 08:42 PM

Heavy Weapons Troll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY5qJHZCz2I

Posted by: Daier Mune Apr 23 2008, 01:08 AM

...you know what? i'm okay with that. if you're willing to have your big heavy weapons guy team up with the group's spell slinger and make a recoil compensation spell, i don't see any problems with that. whats the point of having advanced technology and magic if you can't comine the two? teamwork and smart planning are a shadowrunner's ultimate weapons.

Posted by: Shrapnel Apr 23 2008, 03:06 AM

I've never been quite convinced that the HMG class weapons are actually .50 caliber...

If you take a closer look at the damage codes, they don't quite fit into that range. The only weapon we can safely assume is a .50 BMG is the Barrett 121, which has an SR3 damage code of 14D. This makes sense, given the armor-piercing nature of the cartridge.

The next closest we get in SR3 is the rest of the Sniper Rifle class of weapons, which are 14S. I've always felt this is comparable to a .338 Lapua or some form of Ultra Mag.

The next damage code we have is the HMG, at 10S. We'll skip this for the moment.

The MMG class weapons come in at 9S, the same as the larger sporting rifles. This leads me to believe that they are in the .308 caliber range, or something comparable. This also fits rather loosely with the Ultimax MMG in SR3, which would likely be a 7.62x39.

The LMG comes in at 7S, and using real world weapons as an example, we can assume that this is .223 caliber weapon. As for why it has a higher damage code than the Assault Rifles using the same cartridge, that's a topic for a different debate.

This brings us back to the 10S damage code of the HMG, which is considerably less than the 14D of the Barrett's .50 BMG cartridge. Yet it is just slightly higher than the 9S of the .308 caliber MMG, which leads me to believe that it is actually more along the lines of a .30-06 cartridge, or 7.62x54R. Combining this with the example of the SR3 RPK HMG, which is likely a descendant of the 7.62x54R machinegun of the same name, I feel this caliber more closely fits the damage code than the .50 BMG.

Please keep in mind that all of these examples are using SR3 damage codes, not SR4. I do not have SR4, but would be interested to know how they changed the damage codes of the weapons listed above. Please also keep in mind that this is all subjective, and is based solely on my personal opinion.

With that being said, who's up for an M2-HB with the same damage code as the Barrett?!?

Comments welcome!

Posted by: Fabe Apr 23 2008, 05:27 AM

Then later on as the troll sits down to eat a sandwich a smart mouth elf comes along taps him in the head with a baseball bat and says http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGbWGs2SRe8

Posted by: krakjen Apr 23 2008, 05:40 AM

Well, you have the vehicle weapons who do some crazy damage.
Like the Vigilant/Victory autocannon from rigger3. But with damage codes of 18D and 20D respectively they are most likely 20 and 30mm cannons.
That would also make the Panther Cannon a 20mm by the way.

And them I just realized the Vermicide autocannon from the BBB with his 12D damage code is perfectly filling the .50 BMG HMG role.
(A little less damage than the barrett yes, but it's not using some kind of crazy high explosive incendiary armor piercing ammo (yes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Explosive_Incendiary/Armor_Piercing_Ammunition))

Posted by: Shrapnel Apr 23 2008, 05:54 AM

I also like to think of the Panther Cannon as being 20mm, but have always wondered how they got it to hold 22 rounds in that tiny magazine...

Posted by: krakjen Apr 23 2008, 06:09 AM

A four column (double-double-stack) magazine with one in the chamber?

Or else... MAGIC!

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 23 2008, 08:33 AM

ah, yes, the magical clip of howling . . erm, holding *g*