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Posted by: Hat Apr 22 2008, 02:15 PM

I know it's certainly possible to try and hack an opponent's smartlink etc. My question is more how do you see this play out practically? Can anyone provide examples from their games? I'm having a bit of a hard time imagining how all of it would work. It will be less effective against the PCs I run for as they use Mindnet, but could provide the hacker some extra things to do.

With a sweep of his...

Hat

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 02:21 PM

Virtually never. In the time it takes for a hacker to get in (past the firewall 6 and admin only +4) the sammy will probably kill 2-4 mooks. Even if he does get in, most likely, he'll be detected, the commlink closes outside ports, goes on alert, and then reestablishes its connection with the teammates. By this time though, usually the hacker is just dead.

Also, its hard to hack smartlinks, unless you hack the commlink first, as they typically have a signal of 0, which is 3 meters.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 22 2008, 02:23 PM

If the rest of the team can keep the target busy and the hacker can hide behind something that's within 3 meters, it can happen. It's happened in my game already. But only once.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 02:30 PM

And thats why any sam worth anything invests in a nice handful of skinlinks instead. You gotta touch him to hack those, and I'm pretty sure most sams will notice a hacker touching them.

Posted by: Blade Apr 22 2008, 02:56 PM

No you can just send some small RFID tags (RFID dust) on the sam and use the tags that successfully connected to the skinlink as relays, if your GM accepts it.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 03:02 PM

RFID tags can't act as a relay. They aren't nodes. Not to mention, you'd have to skinlink adapt each RFID tag.

Posted by: Blade Apr 22 2008, 03:13 PM

Actually they are nodes, IIRC it's written somewhere. (Sorry I can't check right now).

Posted by: bjorn Apr 22 2008, 03:21 PM

I have had the hacker try to find a hack a couple comlinks during a conversation, but thats as close as I have gotten in combat.

Posted by: BlackHat Apr 22 2008, 03:28 PM

Mostly just wanted to comment on your name. You're "Hat" and I'm "BlackHat". I guess that makes me, like, your evil twin!

Now that I've taken care of that...

...it hasn't happened in any of the missions I have run, or played in, but that's only a dozen or two. Usually, the players assume that since they were smart enough to turn off the wireless on their cyberware, or skinlink their smartlink-contacts, etc, so would any opponent capable enough to be a dangerous combat.

It seems like the book suggests that this is common practice for Runners, but not for Average Joe Consumer... well, Shadowrunners aren't worried about combat with Average Joe Consumer, and if he somehow got his hands on a smartlinked-pistol and smartlink-goggles and decided he was going to take pot-shots at professional Shadowrunners... well, the team won't need the Hacker messing with his new toys to take him down in a single IP.

When they botch a run, and shit hits the fan, and a security team is deployed to take care of the Shadowrunners - those people are smart enough to flick the mental "wireless: OFF" switch on their cyberware before going out to deal with people that they, at least, suspect, might have a capable hacker among them. Even if/when this is not the case, I think the players figure it would be a waste of time to try.

As someone mentioned earlier, in the time it would take to get in, combat is likely already resolved one way or the other. I can certainly envision cases where this would be a totally valid tactic, but haven't really seen it come about in play, yet.

Posted by: sunnyside Apr 22 2008, 03:30 PM

I wouldn't expect to see it during a regular mook shoot.

But when combat involves more interesting factors I see plenty of it.

For one if drones are around. Especially if the drones in question are tougher, my Hacker is always looking to spoof the things.

Also if there is a car chase usually some camera or registration hacking is in order.

Also in most cases runners are looking at reinforcements inbound and have to run. So you'll see the sammie and mage blasting threats but the Hacker may be doing all kinds of stuff to get them out.

Also don't forget about electronic warefare. Intercepting signals and triangulating peoples locations can be critical.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 03:32 PM

Going for a quick check, I find SR4, 318 describes RFID tags, and grants them a signal rating of 1. They do not have any other attribute ratings, and as such, aren't nodes and can't act as a relay.

Posted by: stevebugge Apr 22 2008, 03:39 PM

Hacking in combat happens a lot for me, but not direct attacks like trying to hack the smartlinks very often. Far more frequently it will be things like trying to hack drones (if they are around) or building systems (activating the fire sprinklers or lights creates instant vision modifiers) to gain advantages. Sometimes hacking the opositions comm network to get access to their conversation can be very useful too.

Posted by: Leofski Apr 22 2008, 03:41 PM

It can be useful and I've done it.

Admin on commlinks is generally not required for the most useful function, hacking the opposition's comms net to get information. The real trick is hacking the drone rigger, generally one of the "simplest" ways of tackling a reasonablly serious threat. If you have a cybercombat attack pool in the mid to high teens (using a threaded attack/black IC program for instance), most hackers fold over pretty quickly .

For a commlink the maximum threshold on the hacking on the fly extended test against a commlink under the RAW is 12, with threaded stealth and exploit this is fairly easy to beat in a turn or 2 without being detected.

I have no idea how to do it with a normal hacker.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Apr 22 2008, 04:02 PM

Yes, but they might repress it.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 04:04 PM

No, I'm fairly sure that its Firewall (6) + Admin (6) + Alerted (4) = 16. You could set your commlink to only have an admin account. With technomancers, typically you can't guaranteeably keep them out, but really, they're such a minority and such a minor threat, (at worst, once they do something that compromises you, you turn off the commlink and shoot them), that its not really a concern.

Posted by: ornot Apr 22 2008, 04:43 PM

"Show me here on this doll where the hacker touched you."

Posted by: BruteQuiBuche Apr 22 2008, 04:52 PM

Hello everyone, I am an old timer in roleplaying, been playing for 20 years, but I am a bit new with shadowrun. In a game I am playing, being the troll streetsam, I understand how fast combat can be resolve. In our group we have a technomancer with us. She doesn't hack a lot in combat, but sometimes it depends on how imaginative you and your gamemaster are. In a couple of run she have been a life saver. We are playing a team of doc wagon that does a bit of shadowrunning on the side.

Strangely enough one of our mission (excuse for our game master to bring us to Hong Kong, for the adventure from emergence) was to bring a patient that was suffering from avps (I think) to the mitsuama corporation when everything hit the fan. While on route from the airport to downtown Hong Kong, we were attack on the bridge. Our technomancer hack the Hong Kong grid and make the civilians cars stop while we jump to the other side of the road going the opposite of the traffic. Doing so diminish the difficulty for our rigger to drive us though.

On another mission she took control of the ennemy chopper that was falling to the ground, with some precious material and the chopper itself, because our shaman took care of the opposing rigger. So we were able to grab the loot and we keeped the chopper for us.

So it depends on the situation, the time that the hacker has. But with imagination, you can do a lot. You often have to think outside of the box.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 04:56 PM

Indeed. One campaign we had a hacker with a cyber comlink. He also carried around a regular com (to blend in more). We were captured, and were being taken down the elevator, when he was able to hack into the guards comlinks, and spoof orders from their comlink to their smartlink to turn the safety on, (GM gave them a perception test, which they failed to notice the Safety indicator on the hud turning on) at which point we attacked (handcuffed and all) and were able to make an escape.

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 22 2008, 05:44 PM

Remember that you can actually get pretty clever with hacking in combat. Opponents aren't the only targets to hack into, no matter how lucrative it feels to have that guy's smartgun eject it's mag on command.

• Hack lights to give your group concealment bonuses and additional dice to infiltrate checks to flank.
• Suborn the cameras and overlay enemy positions through AR. Bonuses to blind-fire?
• Activate sprinklers to make invisible mages detectable.

Posted by: ornot Apr 22 2008, 05:45 PM

It's probably best to think of the hacker as occupying a support role, generating distractions, and keeping the team's AR bonuses as high as possible, rather than offensively hacking enemy combatants. Usually the hacker's job is most important before a fight breaks out, infiltrating the system and locating the guards so the team can avoid them, hacking their gun cams so he knows what they can see, etc. etc.

Posted by: Jaid Apr 22 2008, 06:27 PM

look at the table on page 319 though, which assigns a device rating of 1 to them. thus they have signal, response, firewall, and system, all at rating 1, and can count as a node just as much as a toaster or anything else like that could.

Posted by: Tarantula Apr 22 2008, 06:34 PM

Well, hell, why buy a Novatech Airware (3/3) 1250¥ commlink with a Iris Orb (3/3) 1000¥ os when instead I can buy a pack of 20 stealth tags that are device rating 3 for 5¥!

Posted by: deek Apr 22 2008, 06:35 PM

Hasn't happened in my group and so far that has been in 36 bi-weekly sessions since we started. If you have combat lasting an average of one or two combat turns (3 - 6 seconds), I have trouble figuring out what kinda of data or distraction you need to get on a mook that you couldn't just get when he's dead.

Now, talking about cameras or other building security...if a firefight or melee ensues, the group has either already hacked and taken their precautions, or have thrown caution to the wind and don't need to suppress any security. Plus, my group normally end up cleaning their tracks after a run...

So no, combat and matrix actions don't normally take place simultaneously. I suppose I could see one basic instance, but that is when the group is split up.

Posted by: Jaid Apr 22 2008, 06:51 PM

oh, and to actually add something to the discussion:

i would say the only time you're really likely to see a lot of hacking combined into combat is where the hacker has either a) previously infiltrated the other side's network. or B) you're talking about a really, really long fight going down (ie large scale combat, like you might find in a war zone, rather than what you would typically find in a shadowrun).

this is because for shadowrunners, it is more advantageous to control the environment than it is to hinder the enemy directly imo. (that is, as a shadowrunner, i would be more concerned with having the door open so we can escape through it and lock shut behind us to have corpsec slowed down than i would be with having the corpsec's smartlinks not at 100%)

this is largely because shadowrunners don't have the goal of defeating the opposing side in combat nearly as much as they have the goal of getting out alive and intact (and with the paydata, extraction target, experimental prototype, etc), and only care to engage the other side inasmuch as it is likely to increase their chances of escape. there will of course be exceptions to this, but that's the general rule imo.

Posted by: Ryu Apr 22 2008, 07:53 PM

Because we do not have the node differentiation promised to come with Unwired. See the datajack vs. cybercomlink argument.


The hacker should often start the attack. With access to the security network comes the ability to feed false data to the guards. And by the time combat starts the building network is usually already hacked.

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 22 2008, 08:12 PM

Another cool angle the GM can work is hacking enemy communications. A good GM can play this up.. I always assume that any kind of organized enemy force communicates in much the same way as PCs. If you have such a mindset, it's viable to hack their commlink network and listen to them announce orders like "Frag out", "Flank right", etc.. a turn before they do it.