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Posted by: Method Apr 23 2008, 12:58 AM

Ever wonder what it would look like if you were jumped into a UAV when it got hit by an AAM missile fired from a fighter jet??

Me neither, but here is a very cool http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7359514.stm showing just that!!

Sucks to be that rigger. At least dumpshock won't be invented for another decade or so...

[edit for clarity]

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Apr 23 2008, 02:39 AM

Neat.

I think Putin's cheese is slipping off his cracker. What does Russia think it will gain by throwing its weight around this way? And, why start a shooting incident over one surveillance UAV?

(And incidentally, it's not necessary to write the word "missile" after "AAM". )

Posted by: Method Apr 23 2008, 03:16 AM

Good point.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 23 2008, 03:25 AM

Okay, so what appears to be, or is claimed to be, a MIG-29 shoots down a UAV near a separatist territory that is backed by Russia, and people believe Putin insane? Sure, it might be a waste of the missile, but to be honest that UAV was plausibly en route to a recon mission inside said territory as a precursor to a possible invasion and this was a case of pro-active defense which Georgia is making a big deal over as a diplomatic ploy.

I don't know enough of the political situation in the region to evaluate this properly, to be honest.

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 23 2008, 04:12 AM

Invasion? By whom? There's nobody in Eastern Europe who can stand up to Russia.. who, coincidentally, is increasing their military spending again, and withdrew from a treaty governing their placement of troops along the European border a few months ago. Hello Second Cold War!

What is Russia's status in Shadowrun, anyway? I know Evo is up there, but what's up with the country itself?

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 23 2008, 04:37 AM

The separatist region is, I believe, self-governed. Russia might not actively intervene if it were invaded because, whilst Russia likes having friends, they aren't actually worth enough to Russia for her to commit troops. Blowing up a few UAVs, though, is cheap enough that Russia is willing to do it for the sake of a friendly governing power (certain pressure groups like small, ineffectual states for some reason and so having a few that owe you can be a good thing in the current international climate).

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 23 2008, 04:49 AM

Okay, my mistake. I thought you were trying to imply that the machine was gonna dart into Russian airspace to take a look-see. Nonetheless, I don't see what business Russia would have in that area, considering that at best, they could consider it a non-sovereign region, and at worst, part of Georgia.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 23 2008, 06:12 AM

The separatists are Russian-backed.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 23 2008, 07:33 AM

In some other forum I visit another user checked the coordinates displayed in that video and declared the UAVs position as well in Georgian territory.
Meaning, whatever the reason or circumstances, a Russian aircraft violated Georgia's airspace.

Posted by: Naysayer Apr 23 2008, 07:56 AM

In Putin Russia, Georgian Airspace invades you!
...
I don't know what that is supposed to mean, either.
But I guess there are schools of thought in Russia that would argue that Georgian airspace effectively lies well within Russian airspace...

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 23 2008, 09:26 AM

one step forward, two steps back...

the only thing the human race have become better at, is killing each other...

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 23 2008, 11:19 AM

Given how resilient humans are, that's quite an impressive achievement. We also have nicer cars and houses these days.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 23 2008, 11:43 AM

yep, i just wonder how much of that achievement is related to technology developed for war uses...

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 23 2008, 12:12 PM

For those who are not aware, Russia also recently dropped a bomb (that did not detonate - probably on purpose) in Georgia not long ago, withdrew their diplomats (not sure if they are back), cut off oil supply and crippled the governement by launching a cyber attack.

IMO they are using Georgia as a punching bag to intimidate the other nearby states.

Posted by: nezumi Apr 23 2008, 01:28 PM

I thought the cyber attack was against Estonia.

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 23 2008, 01:57 PM

Was it? I thought it was Georgia... *googles* Yup, you are correct sir, Estonia. Just sort of a bitch-slap on their way to harass Georgia I guess.

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Apr 23 2008, 04:59 PM

Actually the interesting thing about killing a drone is that since you did not kill a person Georgia does not care. So it really is kind of a bloodless shooting war. Though I wonder if in a monetary sense that if the drones price is less than the missiles Georgia might attempt to just let Russia kill drones in order to drain them financially, and then try some kind of diplomatic maneuvering to have Russia pay them back for the drones that were shot down.

Posted by: Naysayer Apr 23 2008, 05:17 PM

That scheme would have a lot more going for it if Russia wasn't just dying for a good enough excuse to invade the smeg out of Georgia.

Only good thing about this is that my children can grow up in a cool Cold War world, with bitch-ass cold war Hollywood movies, just like their old man!
And then I can go all "Huh, son, back in our day, Rambo had a real hairpiece!"

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 23 2008, 05:21 PM

Summing down a conflict to money only is taking a very narrow view that does not reflect reality.
Meaning Georgia very much DOES care a Russian fighter jet just blew up one of their drones. It has a far greater impact that cost of missile vs cost of drone.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Apr 23 2008, 06:24 PM

Do most UAVs even have radio receivers such that they could hear a warning to "leave or be shot down"?

For all we know the MiG pilot could have yelled a dozen radio warnings at the thing before opening up.


-karma

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 23 2008, 06:33 PM

..Which is totally irrelevant, as it's not their sovereignty. They have no authority there. Internationally illegal.

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 23 2008, 06:45 PM

Assuming the video wasn't doctored to show the drone as being in sovereign Georgian territory when it possibly wasn't. Just saying.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 23 2008, 09:20 PM

i would hazard a guess that any drone (unless specifically equipped to act as a decoy, ask the israelis) have a much smaller radar return then a full size aircraft...

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 23 2008, 10:04 PM

I'm reasonably sure that there's a method to assertain the legitimacy of recorded radar data. We'll see if anybody trustworthy breaks it down and comes to a conclusion. That said, Georgia has very little to gain by falsely accusing Russia of illegal aggression, and if the drone was in Russian airspace, I'm sure they'd be the first to call foul.


I'm not in the Air Force (yet), but I believe that most current-generation drones are considered "low signature", with the exception of Wild Weasel-typed machines. Maybe WMS can throw some interesting facts our way.

Posted by: Zak Apr 23 2008, 10:11 PM

Sometimes international politics are just like schoolyard intimidation 'games'. Except its harder to grow up.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 23 2008, 10:41 PM

Schoolyard Intimidation Games... With explosives!

Which, come to think of it, reminds me of my own Schoolyard.

The joys of living in a Mining Town.

Posted by: Kozbot Apr 24 2008, 06:14 AM

I thought I'd chime in as I'm doing a research project that touches on the Georgians, Abkhazians, Adzhars, and numerous other ethnic groups that are banging around Georgia, which also includes a fair sized Russian minority. The USSR was pretty good about spreading Russians everywhere they had any strategic interests, now I know several treaties have been signed by all parties that lets Russia defend the ethnic Russians in Georgia and typically that's been taken as allowing Russia to do whatever the hell it wants there so it'd be tough to make a solid claim that there was a violation of international law. Russia could even claim that it shot down the UAV to prevent a the Georgian military from gaining intel on their troop positions, as far as I know the Abkhaz Autonomous Region doesn't have much in the way of a military and is still reliant on a Russian contingent for support. Though this of course doesn't prevent Russia from selling weapons to the Georgians.

All of that said this is pretty typical international politics/posturing. Russia used to be a super power and isn't anymore but they still like to push things as far as they can. The pertinent international bodies that could do anything are either negated (think the UN) or occupied (think NATO) and with Bush having apparently put the US on auto-pilot till the end of this term they really have nothing to lose and every thing to gain.