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Posted by: bellerophon May 25 2008, 11:20 PM

Hi,

I have just finished reading the http://shadowrun4.com/resources/downloads/chatlogs/05172008Shadowrun.pdf and I have found this gem on page 4: "I was the guy who came up with the Bugs infiltrating Italian Mafia ." (Peter Taylor).

What is he referring to? Where can I find more information?

Cheers,

B.

Posted by: Fortune May 25 2008, 11:28 PM

Shadows of Europe

Posted by: bellerophon May 25 2008, 11:30 PM

Thank you for the quick answer

Posted by: Fortune May 26 2008, 02:28 AM

I'd give more details, but don't have the book handy at the moment.

Posted by: CanRay May 26 2008, 02:31 PM

Wonder how long that's going to last. I'm sure some of the Chicago Mafiosos that survived Bug City aren't going to be too happy about Bugs in "The Family".

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 26 2008, 02:46 PM

Probably about as happy as the italian Mafia is once they realize they aren't in charge anymore. Sure they make tough soldiers in a fight and a heck of a thread. "We have you grnaddaughter in a safe place. Want tyot keep her unchanged you will do ars you're told" BUT once they relized the bugs are working their own scheme, it gets ugly.(er)

Posted by: CanRay May 26 2008, 02:56 PM

And Ugliest when they realize she's already been changed.

Then there'll be going to the mattresses in full force. With Shadowrunner Outsourced Support.

I mean, after all, how many Chicago Families know of 'Runners that survived Bug City right beside them?

Posted by: nezumi May 27 2008, 01:14 PM

Wow, puts a totally different spin on old scenes of Bugsy and his tommy gun.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 27 2008, 01:33 PM

Who says that the Mafia is going to ever have friction with the bugs? Sacrificing your "soul" for "power" is kind of what the Mafia is all about. If the bugs in question can figure out how to guaranty flesh form transformations, maybe all the members will be totally OK with that. They keep their memories and gain tremendous power in exchange for undying, unquestioning loyalty to the family. Does that sound really that different from what the Mafia already offers? The power and the loyalty are just more now.

Now I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that there is one or more organized crime groups who are a bit more individualistic in their approach. Some of them will be Mafia splinters who refuse to make the change. Some of them will be opportunistic criminal groups from Albania and Turkey who capitalize on the fact that there are disaffected European Muslims who want to get ahead and don't want to assimilate into European society but refuse to sacrifice their Essence to spirits from the deep metaplanes that they regard as idolaters and demons.

But I think the assumption that the Mafia walked into a bug alliance as some sort of giant mistake where they didn't realize the ramifications of their actions is flat naive. I think that the folks at the top were probably acutely aware of exactly what they were getting. And what they were trading away.

-Frank

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2008, 06:01 PM

Possibly, but the friction between the Italian Families (Who would seem to support the Bugs) and the North American Families (Who remember Chicago very well!) are going to cause some...

...

WORK FOR SHADOWRUNNERS!!!

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker May 27 2008, 06:10 PM

Well trading your soul for power is one thing, but having some critter use you as a human sock puppet sound a lot less appealing actually. Plus the Mafia are still sort of Roman Catholics for the most part, and I would suspect that the bugs look way too much like demons to be comfortable. Not to mention that Shadowrun kind of has the whole "Church Militant" thing going on. Course walking in to Ninja Nuns killing Bug Mafia would be surreal.

Posted by: paws2sky May 27 2008, 06:17 PM

That would be a wild fight... I'd be pissed that I forgot to bring popcorn, personally.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 27 2008, 06:19 PM

The fact that the bugs are the ones in power is not going to be OK with those who used to be at the top. Crime bosses hate to give up power, not to mention that a group of outsiders managed to infiltrate their organization.

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2008, 06:25 PM

Another reason that I'm doing that Dunkie's will thing with the Popcorn.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 27 2008, 06:31 PM

Sounds the same to me. You keep your memories. To any outward inspection it's still you. You talk like you, you think like you, you give the answers to questions that you would give, and so on and so forth and round and round. Indeed, from the perspective of my own personal philosophy, such a merge would still involve me being me. The merge is a life event that I know ahead of time will give me super powers from the hive and make me extremely loyal to the hive (which is fairly reasonable, as the hive will continually be giving me super powers).

The only reason to believe it's anyone or anything other than you in that body is that the game tells us explicitly that metaphysically it isn't you any more. So basically you get a demon bug monster's soul and other than that it's you through and through. If you don't care what shape your "soul" is in, as one could logically conclude from the actions of anyone who murders people for money, then honestly what's the downside? Once you've told the priest that you aren't going to live cleanly and spend eternity in hell, why wouldn't you be willing to allow a monster to devour the tattered remains of your thrice damned soul in exchange for power?

The Devil is giving you shinies in exchange for your Essence. If you genuinely believe that your spirit isn't worth the paper it's printed on, what the hell do you care? You should thank the lucky stars that this particular demon isn't discounting your soul just because it's worthless.

-Frank

Posted by: CanRay May 27 2008, 06:38 PM

Yeah, but, again, the Chicago Families won't be so easily fooled. The Italian ones, sure...

Which, again, means mucho worko for the Shadowrunners. Deniable Assets would be very needed as spies are sent to see just how bad the Bug Issue "Back Home" really are.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 27 2008, 06:42 PM

Any Italian syndicate worth their salt wants their members being loyal to the Capos, not some bug demons. Of course, I agree with you that many people that accept blood money have a shattered conscience, but most humans rationalize the event in many ways. Some even become more religious. Remember Jules Winnfield from Pulp Fiction? He was talking a lot about God and miracles and stuff. Humans that aren't suicidal or chronically depressed don't like to think that they're dirty scumbags that have no hope of redemption.

Posted by: hyzmarca May 27 2008, 08:42 PM

The easiest way to overcome that is to make the Capos Queen bug demons.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 27 2008, 08:53 PM

Good idea, but how much does the Mafia know about the bug demons? Would the Capo know that his wife's soul has been shredded by the bug demon?
Also, does the Italian Mafia's mindset work any differently in Shadowrun than in the real world? Otherwise, one can only speculate. I'd assume that there would be some Mafiosos none too pleased to find out that their ranks were infiltrated, while some would notice that the bugs are the ones in power now, and better do as they say.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 27 2008, 09:00 PM

Again, I don't think their ranks are "infiltrated." The group turned themselves into a hive. They are infiltrating government agencies and corporations, but that's just their mob stuff. They aren't looking at some of their membership being secretly taken over by bug spirits - the mob as a whole has transformed themselves into a collection of bug spirits.

And yeah, if anyone refused to go along with the program, I'm sure that they were coerced or shot. But that's pretty much true of any organizational change in the Mafia.

They aren't pulling the Ares thing, where they hire out some hives and hope that the hives keep doing what they tell them to. They simply found that being bugs fit with their overall philosophy and just did that.

-Frank

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 27 2008, 09:01 PM

So wait, Frank, the ENTIRE Italian Mafia has been "bugged?"

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 27 2008, 09:32 PM

An entire Mafia in Italy has been bugged.

The others will get with the program, find a new way to compete, or be destroyed.

-Frank

Posted by: CanRay May 28 2008, 12:16 AM

Or invest in some Size 50 boots to stomp the bugs flat. Or a really big can of Raid (Insectiside).

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 28 2008, 12:53 AM

For the first two options, unless it was OVERWHELMING opposition, the Capos aren't just going to roll over and get dominated. In the 1920s, the Mafia had plenty of bloody, brutal, wars. When a bunch of bug-people overwhelming a faction and threatening the other syndicates, I'm pretty sure the Mafiosos' answer will be the same as has it always been for 80+ years: intimidation and violence.

That is if the Italian Mob's mindset is similar/the same in 70 years. The mob could have significantly changed. But reading their return to power in SR4, I'd doubt that they'd have lost any backbone. In fact, I'd assume that they would have gotten a stronger one.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 28 2008, 01:56 AM

The whole deal is not going over. the bugs are not good, sure they provide power but you lose control and a good merge, you're gone. it isn't you and a spirit, you are GONE and there's an alien spirt wearing your body like a suit, because it has your brain it has access to the memories in therebut you are gone.

At first it would seem like cool power and then when they realize they are not calling the hsots, that they have no control over them onsters. then things get UGLY.

I think that there is another angle you aren't considering when you say they will have to accept the bugs to hold strong. no no no. Mobs are always looknig to bump each other off and take the turf. Usually when they get ugly the mafia comes down hard on them in this case, the law would love it. Stomping a bug hive? Sure, blow up the hotel. They mob might even get new toys from bug hating corps, like Aztechnology or Ares. "You guys providethe footsoldiers and a full report of how it works and we'll let you play with out new manportable laser/napalm bullets/insecticide/silly string

Posted by: Fortune May 28 2008, 02:05 AM

n/m

Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys May 28 2008, 03:05 AM

Well, what if a nunnery got infested with mantid spirits and got turned loose on the bug mafia?

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 28 2008, 03:07 AM

Convent, a nunnery is something very very differnt. That aside I was traumatized neough by nuns growing up. I didn't htink you could possibly make them sound worse but...

Posted by: CanRay May 28 2008, 03:32 AM

Mantid-Spirit Infected Nuns that Practice Blood Magic.

There, I made it worse.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 28 2008, 06:47 AM

You mean "like Aztechnology." Ares has bugs on staff, and only hates hives that their staff hives don't get along with. They are the best at fighting bugs, but that does not mean that they actually have anything against bugs particularly. They would be the group most likely and able to parlay with the new Bug Mafia, because they have telepathic employees who speak that language.



This is a cyberpunk setting. People trade away their souls for power piecemeal all the time. How many people seriously refuse the power of Wired Reflexes just because they lose half their Essence? How many people don't? Getting invested with a bug spirit involves losing all of your Essence. But it's rather more power than a set of wires or some dermal plating. It's not Essence friendly, but it's super wiz. And people, rational people, would sign up for that with open eyes.

I would sign up for that. I personally don't care about my "spirit" and am concerned only with the contents of my brain. Given my radical materialist outlook, I'd allow a bug demon to devour my soul and wear my body like a Frank suit in a heartbeat. For me personally, the drawback would not be that my spiritual uniqueness would no longer exist, it would be that the merge might fail, leaving me retarded (hybrid) or nonexistent (trueform). So long as the process was risky, I wouldn't do it. So if they came to me in the late 2050s, when they got about one good merging in a hundred candidates, I would fight and die rather then go into the cocoon. But if they have a Queen on hand and the 2070s bug techniques where they can virtually guaranty a successful merge, I'm totally there.

And if you think I'd be alone in that assessment, you are naive. There are people, real people, who don't care about their souls or mental privacy and do care about being able to bounce bullets off their chest and fly. And I'm guessing that it isn't super hard to find these people in organized crime families.

-Frank

Posted by: Fortune May 28 2008, 06:57 AM

Count me in!

Posted by: Aaron May 28 2008, 12:04 PM

Isn't the Mafia traditionally Catholic?

Posted by: CanRay May 28 2008, 12:06 PM

Hey, just thought of another really bad job!

Posted by: Fuchs May 28 2008, 12:21 PM

I don't see the italian mafia trading their souls for bug powers either. With magic coming back, and renewed faith (more miracles, magical orders in the church) and the good tradition of the roman catholic church of forgiving sins when you confess to the priest, I see that mob branch as getting stomped flat by the rest of the families, with church support.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 28 2008, 12:38 PM

Well the Mafia bugs would not be Ares bugs so they would want to stop the competition, right? It keeps Ares as your shopping source for 'tame' bugs and helps non-bug mafia clean out their competion.

Posted by: Fortune May 28 2008, 03:29 PM

It's always handy to have 'friends' in low places to whom only you and yours can truly relate.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 29 2008, 12:03 AM

You're assuming that all Italian mobsters are materialistic like you. Also, if the mobsters didn't care about their/each other's souls, why would many of them still be Catholic?



I can see how many can see "Magic" as miracles, not to mention the "Shamanic" tradition. Regardless, the La Costra Nostra has gone against many powerful enemies, so I'm sure that the Insect Mages will have a hard time fighting them. I don't think it will be a "Entire mob gets effortlessly taken over, with no large, long-lasting mob wars." Seems too anti-climatic.

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2008, 01:34 AM

One family infected by Bugs, hiding this fact away from the rest of the Families, I could see.

But, while the Families may not get along, they DO communicate with each other! And, again, I point to Chicago!

Yes, most of the big wigs got out before the wall came down, but a lot that stayed behind are some of the meanest, nastiest, and most respected fellows around I would bet!

Triads would be a better target, or the Vory, less experience with the Bugs. Italian Mafia? Big mistake.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 29 2008, 02:16 AM

Forcefully taking control of any crime syndicate is a big mistake, especially when other cells are not within your control. But the Insect Mages know that, and I'm sure they're in a "bring it on!" mode.

Posted by: CanRay May 29 2008, 02:45 AM

Ants at the very least. They have never forgotten what it means to make War...

Posted by: darthmord May 30 2008, 04:00 PM

Frank, to which book(s) would one go to find out more about Ares and their bugs?

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja May 30 2008, 04:48 PM

I think it was Threats or Threats 2.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 30 2008, 07:51 PM

http://pl.shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Threats_2

It gets more out there. Reading some of the stuff in Street Magic and Augmentation makes a lot more sense with that in mind. For example: Montgomery of Info-Sante is a character from 2XS and Temple of the Sun.

-Frank

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker May 30 2008, 08:53 PM

You know the fact that something is offering you something of value for your soul should really get you to reconsider its lack of value.

Posted by: KarmaInferno May 30 2008, 09:15 PM

Well, even if I didn't care about my soul or privacy, I might care about ceasing to exist while someone else gets to run around with my body and memories, bouncing bullets of their new chest and flying around. They might be having fun but if I'm dead I don't see the advantage to me.


-karma

Posted by: Mordinvan May 30 2008, 11:36 PM

Those of us who are materialists don't think we would know the difference. It seems all of our memories, and most of our personality remain intact in exchange for the "upgrade". So really it seems like a win win.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 31 2008, 02:55 PM

But you are not there to do it. you're gone. it's like someone moves into your house, wears your clothes, reads your diary, e-mails your friends and drives your car but you're not there for it.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 31 2008, 03:10 PM

Spiritually speaking, yes. But if you don't give a rat's ass what happens to your spirit, then that hardly matters. Physically and mentally, that's still you. It emails your friends things that you would say, and the experiences it gains are continuous with the experiences and memories you have already accumulated.

From the standpoint of the materialist, the new creature is just as much "you" as the newly formed cells you'll grow in the next few days. I mean sure, a month from now all your skin will have fallen off and new skin will have grown in its place. In six months a complete turnover of neurotransmitters will have occurred and your brain will be an essentially newly formed organ made of new lipids and proteins and contorted into a new set of connections using electrical currents generated with new Potassium and new Sodium. But despite all this newness, the memories, the experience is still the same. And the materialist is willing to call this new creature as the same. Whether it got a new set of skin created from food-derived nutrients or a new aura grafted in from a distant metaplane crawling with insect demons.

Anyone who would be willing to become a Vampire for power (and there are many), should be willing to become a Fleshform Insect spirit for the same reason. Actually as things currently stand, the Insects are offering a much more compelling offer in 2071 than the International Vampire Conspiracy, because a well run Hive can offer a greater than 97% chance of you coming through the process with your memories intact, and the latest of Vampiric spawn creation techniques still outright kills nearly one in three.

-Frank

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 31 2008, 03:14 PM

but it's not you. the part that is YOU deciding how you want to live your life, is gone. YOU, the person who wants to embrace the bug, is gone after that merge.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 31 2008, 03:23 PM

I don't know how much more clearly I can state this: from a materialistic perspective, the part of you that makes decisions is in fact your memories. Those are still there, so there's no reason for a materialist to treat an Insect Merge any differently from any other life changing event. Everything that a materialist believes is you is still in you.

It's exactly the same as Vampirism. Or awakening into an Adept for that matter. Spiritually, you are different. But a mundane materialist cannot tell and does not care.

-Frank

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 31 2008, 03:34 PM

No it's not. Someone else is in the dirvers seat and the constant and reoccurring feature of merges is that they do not cling to their old patterns but goes off on tangents. Just because you're materialistic and might like collecting rare coins or old movies or vintage wines but one the spirit's driving, that won't matter. They will have your memory of that but will follow it's own agenda and will not care about what the last tennant will hope happened.

It will have your memories but it's a body. You're argument is like the car nut who builds a great car. pours his heart and soul into it and then sells it. Sure what he put into it will show his hallmarks for as long as the car is on the road, but he has no further say in it and will not know what happens to it.

Posted by: Aaron May 31 2008, 03:53 PM

Just sayin'.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 31 2008, 03:56 PM

Snow Fox, stop being obtuse. If you continue to approach this question from a dualist perspective, you will never come to the conclusions that a materialist would, nor will you ever understand why they would come to those conclusions. You persist in claiming that there is an indefinable "you" that exists separately from your body and your experience as the core of your argument. Materialist philosophies explicitly reject that.

Yes, if you get merged you will do things differently from what you would have had you not been merged. Similarly, if you eat Cheerios this morning, your actions will be different than if you eat hashbrowns instead; and the materialist does not see any fundamental difference between these two statements. Larger, more meaningful events have a larger impact on your future actions, and events which cause you to live forever while being able to lift and throw a motorcycle with one arm can probably be forgiven the accusation that the impact they will have on your future actions can be expected to be large.

Obviously, you aren't a materialist. For a dualist, who conceives of themselves as being of a separate, possibly spiritual substance from their body, the fact that some spiritual transformation was explicitly going to take place would no doubt be horrifying. But not everyone in the world is a dualist. There are materialists here also. And they are seriously unable to see any fundamental difference between being irrevocably changed by seeing Two Girls, One Cup and being irrevocably changed by being magically merged with an ant spirit. Both are events that you cannot forget which will color your actions and opinions for the rest of your life.

-Frank

Posted by: Fuchs May 31 2008, 04:02 PM

Frank, you can argue for materialism all you want - but the new Frank may have your memories, but he'll also have the memories of a bug spirit, and those bug spirit memories and personality will be dominant. Your goals won't matter anymore, your dreams won't matter anymore, all that matters is the hive's growth.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 31 2008, 04:04 PM

ah, now I understand you. the word you want to use, and had done so I would have understopod your view sooner, is not materialiat, it's atheist.

more importantly we are not having a rL debate, where, you and I would have to agree to disagree and then talk about other things, the baseball season, martini quality, price of gas...

BUT

We are discussing SR, a game in which it has been proven that there is a spirit which is seperate from the material body. This is proven fact in the game world, and so the materialistic view, in the game, fails.

Posted by: Aaron May 31 2008, 04:05 PM

And again ... Catholic?

Posted by: Fuchs May 31 2008, 04:14 PM

Even from a materialist perspective, it's not Frank. It's an alien that has access to Frank's memories, and looks like him - but has its own thoughts, agenda, and memories. Frank will just be a memory, like a movie archive.

Posted by: FrankTrollman May 31 2008, 04:37 PM

No. I mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism. There are non-materialist atheist philosophies (like Buddhism), and there are non-atheist materialist philosophies (mostly pantheistic ones).

By conflating the two, you are at best demonstrating your own tremendous ignorance on the subject. At worst, you might be being deliberately dishonest in this discussion. I'll assume for the moment that you are merely ignorant.




To agree to disagree one has to at the least understand the oher's argument. I understand yours, but it's really obvious that you don't understand mine.


In the game world there are still materialists. Magic is simply accepted as part of the world. No definitive evidence exists that any part of "you" transcends your existence after you die, and there are as many people who regard an astral aura as a shadow cast by one's existence as regard it as an ultimate and ideal self. Would you trade your shadow for power? If not, can you at least begin to understand why someone else might?

-Frank

Posted by: Ancient History May 31 2008, 04:51 PM

I'm just going to step in and say that SR has never confirmed or denied the existence of the soul, the afterlife, or of any particular diety or object of pre-Awakening worship. Don't take astral projection as being proof or disproof of a materialist theology just yet.

Posted by: Particle_Beam May 31 2008, 04:59 PM

Beware, "FrankTrollmann" is an agent of the evil bug monster, or even already one of them, and he, or more precisely, it wants us to embrace body-snatcher-dom... Haha, I have seen through your nefarious plot, Not-FrankTrollmann-but-a-hideous-cockroach-monster-from-another-dimension-pretending-to-be-FrankTrollmann-who-has-been-body-snatched.

Posted by: knasser May 31 2008, 06:16 PM

I see three issues of relevance here. Two I think are original, the other has already been stated by Snow Fox, but I wish to say it again because I agree with her.

The first issue is that when a Mafia man is in fact a bug, there are serious repercussions with law enforcement. One thing keeps organised criminals in positions of power in the real world (and the megacorp playground of SR2070), and that is the tolerance of the government. This tolerance can result from a lack of will to tackle the problem, corruption that interferes with the intention to do so, and the legal process. The British government has on occasion carried out assassinations within the UK (in Northern Ireland, at least), but the police here are bound by the law, by requirements for evidence. Bugs are approved for death everywhere however. There's no 'we know he's the crime boss but we can't prove it.' There's only 'we can't prove he's a crime boss, but he's also a bug so we can and should kill him.' The game has changed once the criminals are bugs. The legal tolerance that allows them to thrive goes out the window and you're left with only lack of resource and corruption to ensure that tolerance. It's also a legal (and PR) situation that would probably allow rival gangsters to openly target their rivals for assassination. That makes a potentially significant difference as well.

The second issue is one of motivation. We know what motivation a mafia boss has for acquiring his wealth and being in charge - he gets luxury and respect. An ant spirit cares for neither of these. What motivates an ant spirit seems to be the normal insect drive - consume and reproduce. Now going back to government tolerance of organised crime, that's based on not being threatened by organised crime. The government understands people who want wealth and status for its own sake. But look at how hard they come down on people who seek power for other reasons. If someone started shaking down the local neighbourhoods so that they could fund the development of their own paramilitary force and reinforced training facility you'd see that tolerance vanish instantly. That's what bugs are - a foreign nation. They aren't working in the system and they don't know their place. They are building their own power base society that is dangerous, independent and doesn't operate on the normal economic and social basics of their host country. They are a fifth column and an extremist cult in a way that human gangsters never would be. Waco was burned down and they weren't even running extortion rackets on the local populace.

And just as emphasising the importance of government tolerance led us to question the role of bugs' motivations in keeping that tolerance, so looking at their motivations leads us to question just how much continuity is actually maintained between a pre-host vessel and their merged form. And this is where I will echo what Snow Fox has already stated. Whilst it is demonstrable that the hybrid merge has access to its predecessor's memories and knows how to emulate its mannerisms, this is not all that constitutes someone's individuality. And I don't need to refer to souls or spirits to support that. An insect spirit's motivation is clearly different to its body's previous owner. For anything other than a queen itself, the individual's loyalty is entirely to the queen. That shoots Frank's persuasive sales pitch for the insect path to personal power to pieces. What's the good in gaining power if it is used solely for someone else's gain (and moreover someone who you had no care for or loyalty to before you gained it). Or to put it in a less original way - what profits it a man to gain the whole world, if he gives up his immortal soul in return? It's always been reasonably clear to me from the source material that a hybrid insect spirit is using its access to its predecessor's memories and mannerisms to maintain a cover, not simply going about its normal life, watching the same TV shows and the same sorts of meals. Some scary Body Snatchers invasion that would be.

So I think Bugs infiltrating the mafia is a compelling plot point. And the notion of someone giving themselves up to inhabitation for the sake of power intriguing. But I don't think it's necessarily sensible. As motivations go, I've always found revenge to be one of the most compelling plot drivers. If this woman gave her life in order to topple someone she hated, that would be a fascinating character.

My thoughts,

K.

Posted by: Aaron May 31 2008, 07:03 PM

As it should be, at least in my opinion. Although the conversation was whether members of the Mafia, who are traditionally Catholic, would be willing to have a bug spirit take them over.

Or rather it was. Now it seems to be morphing into a debate on the definition of philosophical terms that has been further confused by the inclusion of inconsistent capitalization.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo May 31 2008, 07:28 PM

What about Italian mafioso that aren't materialist? I understand your decision, because you are a materialist, but keep in mind that not everyone is that way. Not to mention the whole Astral Plane and Spirits in Shadowrun open up another philosophical can of worms.

Posted by: JoelHalpern May 31 2008, 08:03 PM

There is one aspect that I think a materialist would be willing to consider.
The merge, even a perfecdt flesh-form merge, is going to change the goals and motivations of the person. So, even accepting that a Materialist would still consider the result to be themselves, with added information and perspective (the bug components), there is the legitimate question that they would ask themselves:
Are the goals, purposes, and actions of the person afterwards sufficiently consistent with my own goals now that I want to become that person.

For a pretty similar example, most writers who hypothesize heavy duty mind training techniques consider that the criminals really don't like the penalty. Why? Because while they are still alive, they have become someone they don't want to be. Even if the result were to get them a better life style, they would choose to reject it.

Just because someone is a materialist does not mean that they are cardboard who ONLY wants long life and comfortable resources. They might well note that the result would be bug domination of their culture, centered on bug goals, etc. In fact, many portrayals of Sicilian life and crime focus on their desire to retain independence and their own cultural views.

No, it is no inconceivable that some mafioso (or some people) would choose to accept the merge. But assuming that there was reasonable knowledge of what the deal really entailed, I think that there are other factos (having nothing to do with identity or souls) that the individuals would consider. (Aaron also mentioned some others such as "hmm, now I become a target for everyone.)

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

Posted by: Mordinvan May 31 2008, 08:48 PM

But on the bright side, at least you're a moving target.

Posted by: Snow_Fox May 31 2008, 09:01 PM

Frank, assuming your second name is a reference to a meta type and not a pattern of posts then I can only say that you have, considering what your outlook seems to be, my pity. but I think we should keep this on SR, not RL philosophies. We will disagree on RL and we can say that's agive. SR does have a marked difference between a spirit and a material body. A mage can astrally project from the body andif not properly guarded or just unlucky, another spirit can move in while you're 'out.'

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 1 2008, 12:01 AM

Let's focus on the original topic: Insect Mages and the La Costra Nostra. There will still be plenty of people that believe in spirits, and assuming that the mobsters knew what the Universal Brotherhood was all about, they would find their goals abhorrent if said mobsters were Catholic/or believed in spirits.

Posted by: annachie Jun 1 2008, 12:38 AM

There seems to be an underlying assumption that any mafiosa (Or anyone else for that matter) who volenteers to undergo investment actually knows what will happen to them. That they know that they will become a bug suite or whatever. I suspect the reality would be different.
If Al C gets dragged off and force invested, then the nice new buggy can go back and tell everyone how great it is, and how much new power he's got and all that and since he looks, talks, and acts like Al C then his associates will think that it is still Al C and not some puppeteering bug. THe bug will happily play the part as instructed by the queen of course, because it will help grow the hive etc.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 1 2008, 01:02 AM

I think it's his real name. Which is kinda gutsy, seeing as this is the Intertrucks and all.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 1 2008, 01:16 AM

Ah, now I understand. But my one remaining question is this:
Does the Mafia know what the Universal Brotherhood is about? Are Insect Mages public knowledge, or is knowledge of them easily attainable by the mobsters? I believe that this is an important factor.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 1 2008, 07:31 AM

Materialist philosophy is hardly the only one that finds the prospect of soul selling for power to be advantageous. Dualists who believe that their spirit is holding them back or endangering them for any reason have ample reason to divest themselves of it, whether they get anything for it or not. It's a fairly common heresy amongst Christians for example to believe that Good and Evil are in a war of roughly equal powers. For people who take on a Manichaean heresy or something similar, being good rather than evil holds no attraction, the goal would be to elevate yourself as high as possible in the esteem of YHWH or Satan. And for those people, allowing a demon to insinuate itself into your soul is a way to guaranty your good treatment in the afterlife by the one who wll ultimately judge it: Satan.

Similarly, anyone who reads carefully into the bible and finds that they cannot get past the gates of heaven without following the laws of Moses is in quite a bind if they've been blending fabrics and haven't mutilated their penis. However, if they find a way to destroy their immortal spirit and simply live immortally on Earth, they can save themselves from hellfire. That would make the prospect of Vampirism or Insect merging pretty attractive to many schools of Christian thought. After all, Revelations puts a pretty small number on the Saved. And if you're a mafioso, you can probably guess that there are well more than 144,000 people more deserving of salvation than you.

So yes, many people who believe in gods and the immortality and primacy of their own spirit will find it in their best interests to merge with a bug. Not all of them certainly, but many.

-Frank

Posted by: Ryu Jun 1 2008, 10:42 AM

While your spirit will change with the merger (beyond recognition for many), a dualist may well see the changes as spiritual enlightening. Bug spirits care about their community first, always do their duty and perform way better than a mere human. If you perceive a merged form as spiritually superior, all is fine with infestation.

We all usually play people with a criminal mindset. Spiritually they are mostly bad with a few good tendencies. Now assume a new campaign. Everyone is a street gangster, nearly no ressources, but you may opt-in on the bug spirit hive your gang has going. Hive members are physically stronger, have additional powers, perform to the best of their abilities and do not betray the hive. We can´t judge the importance of the metahuman personality for the merged personality, but from the rules, all you really care about might still be there. Are you going to do the best for your little community, or are you going to chicken-out? Which answer is spiritually superior?

Posted by: nezumi Jun 1 2008, 11:12 AM

I think it's interesting everyone assumes the bugs come in through voluntary invitation. Parasites very rarely are so lucky.

Imagine a situation like this; some form of very intelligent bug infects a person. Rather than looking to reproduce as prolifically as possible, the person looks to reproduce selectively, instead investing in a few quality merges.
The bug-person sets something up with the capo and manages to infect him against his will (perhaps by infecting the capo's doctor, who is far less protected).
The capo now returns to his family and also selectively reproduces; his goal is not to turn every mafiosa into a bug, but rather to spread to very select points. He orders several of his fellows to go visit this doctor for some new implant (haha) and of course, they go (and are subsequently put to sleep for 'surgery' and infected, without even a chance to fight back). Meanwhile, the capo turns his attention primarily on brokering temporary peace with other capos to win their trust long enough to get them infected, or just infects people who support them (doctors, etc.) spreading laterally.

At no point does the fact the mafiosas are Catholics enter into it; they never get a chance to choose. And in fact, the majority of mafiosas won't be infected at all, although they'll have enough support from infected people that the organization as a whole grows a good deal stronger. Reducing the number of infections trades power for discretion, since obviously if it became known the entire organization was infected, it would get chosen for squashing. How common infections get depends primarily on whether infection can be quickly and easily identified, for instance through astral perception.

Posted by: knasser Jun 1 2008, 11:55 AM

Well that's what everyone assumed was the case at the beginning, or something similar. The rest of the debate has come from Frank's position that it might not be and that the Mafia might actually be willing to embrace inhabitation.

Posted by: annachie Jun 1 2008, 01:09 PM

Philosophically speaking, the voluntary investment (That's the right word isn't it?) is a more interesting discussion. Non-voluntary is a mechanics SR discussion with a different interest level.

Posted by: i101 Jun 1 2008, 04:28 PM

I have to agree with nezumi. I doubt that the italian mafia is turning freely into an evilish anti-christian/human bug hive ONLY to gain more power. We have to ask ourselfs who got first infected. Where did it start AND how is the mob ranked.
For example an underboss got possessed and now he/it turns his captains step by step into possessed bug spirits would be a good starting point. Furthermore the captains turn now their lieutenants by time into bugs and then those one take care of the soldiers. This sounds a lot of work, and it is for sure, but remeber that a local family never had 100+ memebers. Maybe all together but not the individual familys.
They used and still do work with a lot of freelancers, mafia soldiers recrute street thugs that want to join the family for any price. And there it starts. An small infected family could demand the thugs to prove themself thru some kind of rituals (where the infections takes place) and so on. Furthermore dont forget the mafia has also friends inside the goverment, corps and small agencys that are loyal to them too (even if this relationship is only money based).
The mob survived so long couse they made money thru those grey-zones that exist in every country/goverment. Gambling, prostitutes, money-laundry and bets. Everyone has desires, and so long the mob doenst exceed this existing grey-zone, like trafficing drugs, supporting terror-groups and so on, they will excist. And always find supportes inside by those goverments, agencys and corps. A super nasty bug queen would profit more of a infected mob familie then of a squatter army. The network that the mob owns is more influential then anything else on the street.

Anyways, at the bottom line i doubt that the roman-catholic background would allow any mafiosi to switch FREELY into a monster. Hell yeah, i now mankind can be greedy, and with no disrespect to anyone here, but anyone that questions traditions and old beliefs has never believed - neither followed old traditions or a religion.
Like i said, my point of view.

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Jun 1 2008, 05:10 PM

Well the Bugs do keep this stuff on the down low. So really the first another family is going to know is when the bugs try sending back a Chicago made man as a bug, or the Chicago guys or people they have talked to go to a family meeting, take an astral peek note a bug, and either alert everyone, or if particularly tweaked by Bug City, attempt to kill the opposing family.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 1 2008, 06:11 PM

which is, of course, the real terror. You trust al and he tells you it's all good and then by the time you know otherwise, it's too late. I did have a htought htough, the local cell of mafioso is infested and they are pressuring a town, and resistance against them is organized by the local convent, who recognize God's word and his enemies and will face evil and oh by the way happen to be mantid spirits.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 1 2008, 07:25 PM

One more thing: How is said person sure that the bugs are aligned with their deity? How do they know that they will keep their free will? Is it possible for an Insect Mage to betray or go against the "Hive?" Also, what if the Insects decide to destroy/dispose of you and you fellow Capos? Can you just say "screw it" and renounce being an insect mage?

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 2 2008, 07:50 AM

I dunno. My concern has nothing at all to do with any immortal soul I may or may not have.

I just don't want to go to sleep and from my perspective never wake up again.

Meanwhile someone else gets to drive my body around and use my memories as they see fit.

I'm talking my conscious mind. No spiritual gobbledygook.

Sure, to the outside world, maybe we seem the same. The new driver may even have convinced itself it is me. Meanwhile, however, the pattern of neuroelectrical consciousness that was me has ceased to exist.


-karma

Posted by: Zak Jun 2 2008, 10:56 AM

Ruleswise I would say no. Didn't say anything in the books that lets you change your tradition. Insect mages get it even worse as they seem to have a stronger bond to their totem. But it would certainly make for a good story in a novel or a campaign.

On a more general level:

Not all decisions are rational, most aren't. We usually assume (or wish) we and others could make rational decisions, but that might not be what really happens and what people really do.

And then there are those who reject the idea of free will in the first place. So what does it really matter, who is in charge of the body? You have no choice anyway because it was your fate or because some chemical reactions in your brain made you do it. (Or some pesky mage casts Control Thought )

On another topic: Mafiosi being good Catholics? Damn, you got a dark twisted humor when it comes to 'good' Catholics. The actions of the Mafia might be in a tradition with some catholic organisations and actors, but if you go by the Book they are doomed and they 'good faith' is a farce anyway.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 2 2008, 11:26 AM

Dude, that is spiritual gobbledygook. The idea of "the mind" as something that is separate from a continuation of your memories is an entirely religious conviction. There's no proof for anything like that, in the real world or in the Shadowrun future.

-Frank

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jun 2 2008, 07:46 PM

Perhaps there isn't any proof.

But the possibility of just never waking up again would be a large deterrent to a lot of folks, I'm betting.

If I copy your memories, and paste them into someone else's mind, and then shoot the original "you" dead, are you still alive? The original "you" certainly would not perceive it to be so. You'd experience dying, and someone else would be running around with your mind-stuff.

There's nothing particularly "religious" about that.

Note that in the real world, I don't necessarily believe there to be "higher powers", but I still do believe in my own conscious mind. The idea that someone else could steal my memories and appearance while leaving me dead would disturb the hell out of me.


-karma

Posted by: hyzmarca Jun 3 2008, 12:52 AM

The great thing about unconditional forgivness is that they can do anything they want and still get into Heaven so long as they confess and seek absolution. It might take longer for them to work through purgatory, but still, their lot is substantially better than that of the most righteous of heathens.

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 3 2008, 02:44 AM

Maybe "Good" would be more appropriete. We all know people who think their good and aren't, at least from our perspective. They most likely do think their good. There are all sorts of questionable things that can be justified, based on your perspective. Are they right? Well that's the kicker, and if we had a definite answer, there wouldn't be conflicting moral/philosophical theories out there.

(We all have heard of, either from history or media, crime families who are highly religious. Heck, let's use select ganster rappers as an example. Does anyone think that God really would like them to buy a diamond encrusted cross instead of spending that money doing some charitable work? Or if your cynical, donated to the local church? But they still claim to be christian and love their moms, regardless of their actual actions.)

There are always going to individuals that will trade anything, even and up to their immortal soul, for power. It's why evil exists; people have choice. Frank is right on some notes, if you could ceas to exist instead of suffering torture forever with no chance of escape, many people would take it. But most people also don't think that they're that far gone. In addition to there always being individuals who will sell their soul, a majority of those individuals will also try to weasle out of it at at some point.

My 2c on the materialism isssue definitely resides with the poster who said that if you knew about a future experience that would change you, you would have to think about how it would change you, and if that is how you wish your "memories" to be changed, because your body is along for the ride.

(Hmmm, bugs. Hate bugs. Do I want my memories modified with those of a bug, and to live a bugs life and motivations, even with TV? Nope.)

I also see Vampirism as different, since your effectively adding a new group of survival traits to your life: things to avoid and things you need. But since it's a disease, I don't think it's actively changing your personality simply by catching the disease (though as Frank would probably be quick to point out, the new experiences that your now having by need of survival will effect you. And it would eventually, almost certainly, change you as a person.)

Here's a new question: why hasn't the church tried to do anything about them (the bug mob)? Stealing the immortal souls of people, definitely a no no with regards to any Christians, let alone Catholics.

(Granted in my campaign world the church is a little more powerful than it probably is in alot of campaigns, but regardless the SR Catholic church would strike me as a trifle... meddling, when it comes to important matters.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 3 2008, 03:23 AM

I mean "good Catholics" in the sense that even sinners try to put a respectable image/do enough good deeds so that they won't become unsaveable.

Posted by: Aaron Jun 3 2008, 05:18 AM

I've encountered the modern Mafia twice. Once, I was dating a Mafioso's daughter. The second time I was doing some (perfectly legal) work for them. In that experience, I've found members of the Mafia to generally be good Catholics.

Now, what happens between then and 2071, I might not be able to tell you so much about.

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 3 2008, 05:34 AM

My mum interacted with some "families" in her younger days down in Tacoma (the major city between Seattle and the state capital) and she said that they were VERY traditionally catholic. (She attended weddings and such.)

(Of course, this goes back to the difference between actually good catholics, and what people percieve themselves to be. On a different note, it's amazing what people think they can do to each other, and yet still expect to get to go somewhere good after death. Like it's no big deal or something.)

Posted by: Fortune Jun 3 2008, 05:48 AM

I'm not all that interested in the various complications that might have stopped this from happening, since despite any of the problems, and all of the many and various reasons for it to fail that we can come up with, it has already actually happened. I'm much more interested in what's next on the agenda for the Bug Mob.

Posted by: Fuchs Jun 3 2008, 08:06 AM

Getting stomped by the not-bug mob allied with just about every other faction of the powers in southern italy.

Or (my cynical view): Killed by a lone runner in the next novel (and the runner discovers he is the re-incarnation of an ancient hero and has special super powers).

Or (my very cynical view): Described in the next sourcebook as openly ruling an entire city, where humans are hunted as prey, with a blocakde of the city set up by the rest of italy. This will be dragged on for years, until shortly before SR5 it'll be all over in 2 days once the army and vatican finally move in and clean up.

Posted by: nezumi Jun 3 2008, 04:18 PM

There are a number of well-known diseases that cause clear and otherwise unexplained behavioral changes in the victim. An easy one is rabies; an otherwise friendly animal becomes tremendously aggressive, even attacking its own offspring. There's the one that means pregnant women shouldn't clean up cat poop. It causes rats to actively seek out cats, even though they know they'll get killed and is believed to be associated with some psychological disorders in humans as well. There's another disease of ants that cause them to walk around with their abdomens up in the air, so they look like berries and get eaten by birds. I would suspect that vampirism would have a similar effect; it's still the same line of consciousness, but all of a sudden the character is aggressive, hungry, etc. without real cause. You aren't just normal Joe Blow except now you need extra sun cream.

Posted by: annachie Jun 3 2008, 11:21 PM

One of the nice things about going to a catholic primary school. I was in the same grade as the local Don's* daughter. (Also the son of one of his laundry blokes) My sister was good friends with the younger daughter as well and even stayed over a few times. Definately 'Good Catholics' and nice people.


*He would have been a minor don though.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Jun 3 2008, 11:50 PM

Hmm what about Pagans, Heathenry is a Norse aspect.

WMS

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 4 2008, 07:42 AM

Hmmm, excellent point. I haven't read anything that implied that (or at least that I recall), so I was assuming that it didn't do the "crazy rabies" thing (just an example). But in literature and popular culture there are plenty of examples on both sides of the line.

... I had totally forgotten that most of the strains do cause crazy stuff to happen to your personality (like making you lead cults of canniballs). I'll have to double check the vampires though, I believe some of them remain relatively themselves (and I think the non crazy ghouls are similar).

Still, I have to think that me with rabies is better than not "me" wearing a me-skin suit. One can argue about the existance or non existance of the soul, but when an invisible flying ant is offering you super powers, you might want to reconsider the existence of your spirit, from a purely "well, if the super flying ant exists, why wouldn't I?"

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 4 2008, 08:10 AM

False dichotomy. If flying magic ant spirits exist, why wouldn't you believe in the invisible pink unicorn, the celestial teapot, or the flying spaghetti monster? Why wouldn't you believe in The Force and try to become a Jedi?

The existence of one or more things that were unknown to science at some point in the past is no reason to believe in any specific thing that is currently unknown to science.

-Frank

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jun 4 2008, 12:57 PM

but it does show there is a non-material life form. A Mage can split her spirit from her body to astral travel and leave just the husk behind. In the SR worl this is a proven fact.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 01:49 PM

And your point is?

Astral projection is not necessarily equatable in any way to souls or the afterlife.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 4 2008, 03:18 PM

Astral Projection seems to prove that the immaterial part of the self can not survive without the material part. Fully consistent with the view that everything depends on the body.

Materialism would need to be restricted in the face of purely astral phenomena, but the whole metagene business would then make a strong point to call metahumanity materialist.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jun 4 2008, 09:00 PM

But it does show that the two can seperate. The body stays behind when the mage leaves it and something else can move in, possess the body, and the original owner is SOL.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 4 2008, 09:19 PM

Because I believe whatever my religion tells me to believe, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster was an evil atheist invention made to tempt the faithful!

But seriously, in SR, magic ant spirits are a reality. Inivisible pink unicorns are still in the realm of belief, as the developers did not make stats and back stories of them yet.

Posted by: JoelHalpern Jun 4 2008, 09:32 PM

Actually, thinking about this, the question is what the known facts are about the Bugs.

Suppose that instead of Bugs we had a new Bio-based procedure.
It is very expensive
It is hard to get a hold of
It is reported to stop aging
It is reported to make you dual natured
It gives you Hardened, Mystic Armor or a respectable grade (6 - 8?)
It is rumored to make you unaging

It is rumored that you develop a strong loyalty to the B Bio-factory Corporation
It is rumored that if you have an immortal soul, the procedure destroys it.

Depending upon whether you take that last two rumors seriously or not (including whether you care about the second one) a person might or might not be interested in the procedure.

If the last two are known to be replaced with
You will undergo a radical change in motivation
You will be absolutely loyal to the B Bio-factory Corporation
Then people may be more skeptical. In particular, with the second set, folks who are focussed on their independent power are likely to be skeptical. But for folks two (or more) ranks down from there, that may well be a different question.

So it depends upon which particularly people in an organization, and what information they have. ANd what beleives about the importance of various factors including soul, culture, etc. different people have different views.


Yours,
Joel Halpern

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 4 2008, 10:48 PM

No, it's not a false dichotomy. I did not say your soul exists because the invisible ant does. I said that because the invisible ant spirit exists, (and thus things in the spirit realm exist,) perhaps you should consider the possible existence of your own soul.

And it's interesting that you would mention science, which has often been behind the curve on things that "magic-ee/wise folk" have known for hundreds of years. Especially when dealing with a new field, such as magic in SR, science should keep it's mind open until it gets a little deeper into the pool.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 5 2008, 02:51 AM

frank is now being willfully obtuse, choosing to ignore or misunderstand the rules of the GAME.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 03:41 AM

Can you please point out just where he is doing this, and exactly what rules he is ignoring?

There are absolutely no rules for 'souls' or 'the afterlife' in Shadowrun. Also keep in mind that Frank is the person who wrote a lot of this stuff in Street Magic.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 5 2008, 05:19 AM

Crack open Augmentation. There is such a procedure. Ares does that procedure too.

Just saying.

-Frank

Posted by: Cardul Jun 5 2008, 08:42 AM

The problem people are having, I think, is Frank is arguing from a philosophy that makes no sense. Strict Materialism which Frank seems to be arguing for does not work in ShadowRun because there are things that are NOT material. Additionally, the whole definition that you are sum of your memories does not work very well, because you cannot produce a copy of those memories. That was one of the stumbling blocks with Materialism.

Instead, Empiricism works much better, as it allows you to rely on observed phenomena beyond those that are material. If we go by Empiricism, which, by the way, is the core of modern science, not materialism, then there are problematic areas regarding Bugs. Observed Data would indicate that there are changes in the person, and that their Aura has changed. These coincide with the Bug Infestation, and thus could be linked to that. However, beyond that, there is nothing an Empiricist can say for sure beyond that.

Now, though, the other issue with Frank's argument is that he is assuming that the Mafia are all, 100% Strict Materialists. That none of them would think about things like the state of their soul(if so..why do they regularly go to Confession?), because he somehow equates Catholicism with following the strict interpretations of the Bible as seen in Baptists. This is proof to me that he has not actually know many Catholics, or else he would know that Catholicism is more about the Papal Bulls, Papal Rulings and philosophies, and what the priests are taught is important from their Catholic Bible(which has more and different books from other versions of the Bible.) A good Catholic is trained to ask their Priest about anything, because they are just mere, flawed humans, while the Priest has a direct line to God, and the Priest gives advice on everything from spiritual matters to marital troubles, as well as absolving them of their sins by telling them what penance they must do, often in the form of numbers of specific ritualized prayers.

*hmmms* Actually, now that I think about it..the best person t infect if the Bugs decided they wanted to infect the Mafia would not be the capos, Dons, or any low level goons...it would be the Catholic Priests. I wonder how close an eye the Vatican keeps on its priests in Italy?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 5 2008, 09:54 AM

Depends on your definition of "material." Imagine for the moment that someone somehow designed an experiment that proved that String Theory was true, or at least true enough to have real significance to the way we did things in our every day lives. Suddenly we have an extra dimension or three that definitely exist and have consequences that we can measure and confirm. Imagine that people are born and grow up in a world where this has already happened.

Do you honestly believe that people will stop being materialists because of these extra dimensions? They weren't included in the description of the material back before their discovery, but they'd be real enough to anyone born and raised in a society which accepted them. Did Einstein's transformation of Time into a mundane location seriously threaten anyone's lack of faith in the supernatural?

Anything you can poke is acceptable to the materialist because it manifestly is part of the real world. Anything you can't prove or demonstrate is dismissable by the materialist as unlikely or implausible. The fact that matter exhibits funny qualities when accelerated to near the speed of light or when possessed by spirits does not phase the materialist in the slightest, because those are definite and repeatable qualities of the real world around him. It's a bullet-proof philosophy, because it is capable of adding things to itself as soon as it can no longer ignore them.

Materialism rejects the supernatural by claiming that everything that is be of natural form (the causes of which may or may not be known). In 2072 the materialist believes in spirits, he just doesn't think that spirits are from beyond reality, merely insufficiently studied.



No, it was simply an example philosophy that would support jumping ship to bug infestation. There are many more. Examples:

• Spirits are an observable part of the world, it is equally measurable that metahumans don't have them. While metahumans can't be summoned or banished, they do age and die. And at the end of the life of the body, even an astral projection of one's aura will fade away into nonexistence and one is left with nothing whatever. Conclusion: Immortal Souls exist, and you probably don't have one. Therefore you'd better get one by merging with a spirit as soon as possible lest you be ground to dust beneath the ever rolling millstone of time.
  
• Ultimate good and evil exist (act of faith), and after death the personifications of whichever has greater claim on your life will determine what is to be done with your eternity. Conclusion: you should evaluate your life and determine whether your eternity will be constructed by the lord(s) of good or evil. And then you should find some avatars of whichever side you fall upon, and ingratiate yourself as well as you can. If you think that your life has as a whole been wicked, it is best to find some avatars of Evil and get on their good side so that you get a posh appointment in the hereafter.
  
• The metaplanes are the afterlife (act of faith), and if you can't get there you won't get there. So initiate mages get to go to heaven (or naraka, or whatever), and mundanes don't. Conclusion: If you wake up i the morning with no magical ability, you'd better find a way to forge a link to the metaplanes before time runs out and you die. Any link will do, you just have to find one or you don't get a hereafter at all.

Just off the top of my head. Real people will really preach these philosophies based on the properties of the Sixth World.

-Frank

Posted by: Fuchs Jun 5 2008, 11:04 AM

Mundanes can get to the metaplanes thanks to the Astral Gateway spirit power. It's not much of a stretch to belive that an "Angel" guides you to the afterlife after you die using a similar power.

Also, a lot of myths have been proven true in SR - magic, astral space, dragons, unicorns, pegasi, dwarves, elves, etc. - so I'd say that even many materialists won't be as hardcore sceptics to assume that some of the greatest "myths" - valhalla, heaven, hell - are not true.

Posted by: JoelHalpern Jun 5 2008, 01:28 PM

You seem to be missing Frank's point.
He is not arguing that everyone, or even every character, should be a willing to be possessed by a spirit / bug / whatever.
He is however arguing quite cogently that there are multiple believe systems under which it is entirely reasonable to accept such possession, and even to seek it out. Even in the SR universe, there are plenty of spiritual unknowns and lots of room (quite deliberately and helpfully for us as players and GMs) for differing philosophical views.
(I happen to personally not be a materialist, and it is likely that even if my characters were, they would find some of the other constrains, like the change in motivation, to be show stoppers for them. But that sure does not make it a show stopper for all the people in the SR universe. And I don't know enough about mobsters, much less Italian mobsters, to have any opinion as to what there philosophical outlook is likely to be, and how many exceptions there are to any such generalization, etc.)

Yours,
Joel

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 5 2008, 06:34 PM

The more that I think about it, the more that I can see the Mafia agreeing with the Insect Mages' deals, but only if said Mages could pull the wool over the Capos' eyes about the real deal. If the Mafia really knew what was going on (i.e. bugs inhabiting your bodies and taking control), then a mob war would break out.

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 6 2008, 03:17 AM

I think the Vatican keeps a close watch on it's priests, especially in Italy, because their right there. With that being said, the church is kinda infamous for missing problems (whether deliberately or not). I think that it would be significantly harder to infect a priest on the sly, but a kidnapping, where the priest was able to "escape" a few days later is much more likely.

I believe Fortune said on the last page that he was more interested in what would happen now that it has happened. Well, I think that nabbing a few priests and turning them into their own pet priests might very well be on the to do list. It would give more influence among the mundanes of the city, and if they were lucky, it might give them a heads up if one of the organizations that's likely to kill them is on the way. (I don't think they would get far with infecting the priesthood though, because there are a fairly large number of awakened among them and the faithful. It would be dangerious, and likely to bring them to the attention of the church at large.)

Which brings up a question I wanted to ask. How "smart" is a bug spirit? Spirits of course have high mental stats if their high force, but how does that translate to the way we think, and how they relate to us? Would bugs know not to infiltrate the church, because it could bring down a rival "hive" (large organized group) on their heads? Would they only infiltrate the important mafia guys, and select brute squads? Are they smart enough to figure us out and second guesse us, or is it going to be humans vs. bugs both trying to second guesse the other, but totally missing because we can't possibly understand the other's mind set?

(And there is no such thing as a bullet proof philosophy.)

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 6 2008, 04:05 AM

I actually had a character (mage adept) who thought they were a jedi.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 6 2008, 04:11 AM

Seems obvious to me you're a little short on catholic doctrine yourself.
Some 'cathloics' are biblical literalists, others are not.
Some follow the popes every word and gesture with baited breath, and others think he's a duche bag.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 04:11 AM

Isn't there already a deep, dark burrowing Great Dragon (or Earthdawn something-or-other) already behind the Vatican? Or is that just in their history?

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 6 2008, 04:30 AM

O-O Well, that would be terribly exciting if it were true. I don't know anything about it though. Do you have any more information, because several campaigns I'm in/run revolve around the Vatican. So the more info the better. (Like the bug spirit's we're talking about. Next campaign might have to involve them.)

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 6 2008, 05:29 AM

Moleskin doesn't get any SR props, that was an Earthdawn thing that thankfully hasn't been brought up as a serious plotline.

-Frank

Posted by: Ryu Jun 6 2008, 11:32 AM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=15332&st=150&p=472150&#entry472150

Posted by: Fuchs Jun 6 2008, 01:29 PM

My point was that a) mundanes can reach the metaplanes, contrary to what Frank said, and b) that his cut of materialists might not be as common as he thinks they are.

Posted by: Synner Jun 6 2008, 02:26 PM

Wow. Five pages on a plot seed I threw into a chapter I didn't even intend to write (but ultimately had a lot of fun with), and now someone digs up another of my pieces... Nice to know the stuff I come up with sticks in some people's minds. Now if I could only get them to pay attention to the stuff on the common root of Hinduism and the Path of the Wheel...


If you haven't checked it out already, you should take a look at the Shadows of Europe chapter on Italy and the Vatican (for some ideas on Vatican politics in the 21st century) and the Loose Alliance section on the secretive Vigilia Evangelica which the above link refers to (for the truth about the Vatican's Black Libraries).

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 6 2008, 11:05 PM

The part on Italy was one of my favorite things you wrote.
I also liked how you successfully hearded cats when discussing wicca

Posted by: AngelisStorm Jun 7 2008, 12:09 AM

I've definitely read the Shadows of Europe section, but not the Loose Alliance piece. I did just check the link though, and it sounded very interesting, so I guesse I have my next reading assignments set. *smile*

Posted by: Ryu Jun 7 2008, 09:32 PM

Your welcome. The common root... beyond the similarity of spiritual advancement?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 8 2008, 01:58 AM

Hint:

Ireland
Iran
Aryan
Ainu
-These words have something in common. Say them out loud.

A Celtic swastika looks like http://murraycreek.net/return/book1/returnbk1fg2.gif
A Persian swastika looks like http://www.swastika-info.com/images/worldwide/asia/iran/swastika_iran.jpg
An Indian swastika looks like http://www.hinducounciluk.org/newsite/crcimages/swastikacol2.gif


And the oldest swastikas we have on record are from Southern Ukraine, and they look like http://www.midwesternepigraphic.org/swastika3.jpg

Just saying.

-Frank

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 8 2008, 02:18 AM

ZOMG, Frank's suggesting that the swastika is a universal symbol of good luck and stuff, and that said countries' ancestors may be related or borrowed from each other! Whodathunkit?

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 8 2008, 02:33 AM

No he's not. He's pointing out the symbol which has been noted in several cultures can be traced back to common roots.

A similar, less inflamatory example(and lets face it anything nazi is inflamatory) would be the similarity in the name of sun dieties in prechristian europe and the middle east-Baal, Bal, Bel Balder etc.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 8 2008, 04:03 AM

Okay, I misinterpreted something on the Internet. Not my first time...

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 8 2008, 06:06 AM

There honestly should not be anything inflammatory about the Indo-Aryan swastika. It has been in common use for literally thousands of years before anyone ever even dreamed of the word "nazi." To everyone outside of Europe, and a lot of people in Europe, the swastika is just a sacred symbol of Hinduism. And Buddhism. And Jainism. And every other religion which is descendant from the original Central Asian barbarians for whom the word "barbarian" is coined: the Aryans. There are seriously about 2 billion people on the planet for whom the swastika is a sacred symbol that has nothing to do with nazism. These people include the Dalai Lama and Gandhi.

That's seriously not a nazi thing. It's the reason why all the Indo-European languages are so similar. And it's the reason that the archaic Irish caste system is pretty much identical to the old Indian caste system. There really is a common group of people that spread a lot of cultural ideas around several thousand years back from the island of Ire to the island of HokkaidÅ?.

The fact that they were apparently kicking around in Southern Ukraine during the ice ages is of particular interest to Earthdawn/Shadowrun crossovers.

-Frank

Posted by: Aaron Jun 8 2008, 04:49 PM

True dat. The swastika isn't a Nazi symbol unless it's black and on a white circle which is on a red background.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 8 2008, 07:36 PM

Barbarians in loincloth casting life-prolonging magic that is nowadays called cybermantic magic... reference Cybertechnology pg. 74.

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 8 2008, 08:35 PM

So, people still complain, especially in America's "Lawsuit mentality" culture. For example a Pokemon card had a swastika on it, and it caused so much controversy that the Japanese company discontinued said card entirely in America.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 8 2008, 08:53 PM

But we're adults here. And we should know that when Buddha has a swastika on his belly, that it's not an attack on homosexuals, gypsies, or socialists.

-Frank

Posted by: Sweaty Hippo Jun 8 2008, 09:14 PM

Most adults that get in the news/make lawsuits aren't very rational or reasonable. Look at any reality show. Not to mention that most humans always find something to complain about.

Not saying that I disagree with you, it's just that when most people think "Swastika," they think "Nazi," and as such, assume the worst.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 8 2008, 09:20 PM

Jack Thompson is an Adult. Look at what he does.

http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/06/bar-requests-10.html

Posted by: Synner Jun 8 2008, 10:09 PM

Frank's hit the nail on the head. The Aryans have little to do with what the Nazi image of them. If you look closely at the presumed timing of the conquest of the Indus civilization by the Aryan barbarians its gets kind of interesting (strangely enough the reason for the mass Aryan migration continues to elude us). And they went everywhere, the Aryans are also believed to be the forefathers of the Celts. Then there's the commonalities between the ancient irish caste system and the Hindu varna. The fact that changing one's caste (up or down) requires reincarnation. The similarities in Indo-European languages. There really is a common root to all of this and the source of it all is indeed quite interesting for someone who's followed ED and SR links.

Posted by: CanRay Jun 9 2008, 12:31 AM

So that explains why the Elves are so into Celtic Lore and so on.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 9 2008, 06:20 AM

Yes. Flash back a few thousand years and it comes from Southern Ukraine.

Not just in Shadowrun, but in the real world.

-Frank