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Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 03:54 AM

This has come up now a few times in a game I'm running, and I wanted to know what other people's take on this spell / ruling is.
One of my players has the spell Mana Static. He regularly uses this spell to throw up a static at 1 less than his Magic rating, and then drops it the next round. During the 1 round of rating 4 background count all spirits of force 4 or less immediately go pop, making it a ridiculously effective AoE spirit killer. He doesn't use spirits himself, so he's happy to just hose everything around himself any time someone starts using spirits. Even if they aren't force 4 or less, they still get ganked, because they are now force 1 or 2.

As I understand the rules on permanent spells, that means they go in to effect the moment you cast it, but the effects revert if you stop sustaining the spell before it has attained permanence. Therefore when he stops sustaining the spell the effects immediately dissapate. The spirits, however, have already been disrupted, so they can't come back.


Can someone please tell me if I've got this wrong, or if Mana Static really is just that broken.
Yes, I'm aware that the Drain is brutal, but for a spell that can basically one shot a lot of encounters, it's so worth it.
(Note; Also, I'm not asking for house rules, because I can easily make those up myself. I just don't like to house rule stuff unless I'm sure the original rules don't work).

Posted by: Jaid Jun 4 2008, 04:01 AM

that sounds about right. note that any spells he himself may be sustaining are subject to that effect, and that further the spirits would have to all be close enough and on the appropriate plane for that to be a problem.

otherwise, yes. mana static really does do horrible things to spirits.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 4 2008, 04:02 AM

it's a great spell with a great use vs a particularly powerful threat.

But yes it really is that good, and is in contention for 'best spell in the game' along with heal and a few other bits and pieces.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 04:07 AM

My spellslinging characters tend to use Slaughter Spirit for this type of 'spiritual house cleaning'. Just as effective, with a lower Drain Code.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 4 2008, 04:24 AM

I can never justify taking non multi-purpose spells because I tend to max out my allocation. Horses for courses I guess.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 04:39 AM

Normally I feel the same way, but I make an exception for Slaughter Spirit. It is just too damn useful for taking out Spirit packs without harming or even inconveniencing the rest of the party.

Posted by: Daier Mune Jun 4 2008, 04:39 AM

you don't have to specify spirit type? thats useful.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 05:19 AM

Nope.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 05:39 AM

Same plane? Hadn't considered that.
Surely background count affects both the physical and astral plane at the same time?

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 4 2008, 05:39 AM

Yes I can see why you'd take it then... it does kinda do the job of banish, but only cooler

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 06:18 AM

Also, Fortune, re: Slaughter Spirits, it's cool and all, but not the instant death effect that Mana Static is. Against Slaughter Spirits each of the spirits gets a resistance roll using Willpower + Counterspelling (which some spirits have naturally, and others may get from their summoner), and then they get to soak against the damage. It hurts, but it's not an automatic kill against anything of low enough force.

Also, an expansion on my original query... what happens when someone casts Mana Static at a higher force than their own Magic? As far as I can tell, the spell goes off, spirits all go pop, his magic drops to 0, the spell fails, his magic goes straight back to it's full value, then... ummm... PROFIT!
Basically this would seem to remove the need to even stop sustaining the spell, since it does it's work and then kills itself, and it lets you instakill Force 10 spirits (assuming soft-capped starting mage) if you're willing to take the drain. Those same force 10 spirits would be rolling anything from 10 to 20 dice to simply swat a Slaughter spell, depending on who's providing them Counterspelling, if any. Still, 10, with Edge, is plenty.

Force 10 spirit is a party killer. Sure, the mage collapses from the drain, but he just one-shotted a party killer as a starting character, with absolutely no way for it to resist the effect.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 4 2008, 06:23 AM

I'm pretty sure you actually need to roll the required number of successes too, don't you?

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 4 2008, 06:23 AM

You're a sick man... uhh dragon? and I like it.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 4 2008, 06:46 AM

Direct Combat Spells do not allow a Damage Resistance test after the initial Spell Resistance.

Mana Static is potentially the most powerful spell in the game, but due to it's high drain value, and limited use, that does not mean it is overpowered. It's limitations, in addition to only affecting magical objects/creatures, include it hindering the caster, & any other awakened character in the group.

And finally, if your starting mage can reliably obtain the 10 hits required to disrupt such a high-force spirit, one of two things is happening: said player is cheating, or your game is so high powered that it should not matter. Mana Static creates background equal to Spellcasting Hits, not Force.

As for Mana Static vs. Slaughter Spirit - I can multi-cast two or three Slaughter Spirit's in a single turn, for overall less drain than a single Static, and kill off low-force spirits just as well - without the hassle of hampering/damaging your self or party.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 06:47 AM

No soak afterward! It's a limited Manaball, and as such there is only the one resistance test (Willpower + Counterspelling if available).

Another one of the benefits of Slaughter Spirit is its amenity to multi-casting. Overlapping two lower Force spells has proved very useful, without causing much in the way of Drain, at least in my experience.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 4 2008, 06:50 AM

Beat you, Fortune

Muahahaha.

Posted by: Kerberos Jun 4 2008, 07:01 AM

But you won't be nearly as effective against that force 8 spirit with counter spelling.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 07:40 AM

Excellent point. I'd forgotten that part. Still, with a decent edge pool it's theoretically doable... not nearly as much of a "One shot kill" though, since you're relying on a good roll. On the other other hand it definitely retains it's facility as an AoE spirit mob killer.



Another good point in favour of Slaughter. I'd not considered that.



This I have to contend. Three Slaughters gives all of the spells +2 DV, meaning you're soaking F/2+3 x 3, versus F/2+4 once, and you have to split your Spellcasting dicepool between 3 different spells, meaning your net hits are going to suck. Since net hits are all that matter for resistance, the spirits are likely going to ignore all three effects, and take no damage.

On the other hand, the hits rather than force thing means that an average starting mage is unlikely to muster the hits needed to take out force 5+ spirits, which does reign in the spell a little. It's the instant death against force 4 or less that annoys me.


Another point I'd like to bring up again, as it got missed earlier: Does plane matter? Since background count affects both the astral and material planes, surely it doesn't matter whether you cast the Mana Static in one or the other, you'll still disrupt any spirits, and really piss off any mages lurking in astral.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 07:56 AM

Yeah yeah.

But methinks you snuck in and added that last bit about multi-casting when I turned my back.


Force 8 Spirits don't grow on trees. Even rarer are Force 8 Spirits with Magical Guard.

But they can still be brought down through judicious use of spells. You aren't going to be getting 8 hits on your Spellcasting test in any kind of regularity (requires a Dice Pool of 24 and a minimum of a Force 8 spell) to bring down a Force 8 Spirit in one shot with Mana Static, and if you don't get it in one shot, it can move out of the AoE, via a number of means.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 4 2008, 07:59 AM

I admit, the multi-casting part was an edit - but it was before I refreshed the page and saw your post below mine. So it still counts

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 08:01 AM

What you are not seeing is you can cast 3 Force 5 Slaughter Spirit Spells, each with a modified DV of 5 (for which I can use my full Pool to resist each time), versus 1 Force 8 Mana Static (the minimum needed for the Spirit level being bandied about) with a DV of 8.

I would personally just go for only two Slaughter Spirit spells, at either Force 5 or Force 7, but three works if you can pump your Drain Resistance Pool.

Splitting the Dice Pool is not as crippling as you might think. You only split the base (Attribute + Skill) Pool, and then add any and all modifiers to each new Pool as applicable. It isn't hard to stack on positive modifiers to one specific category of spells if you really try.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 4 2008, 08:29 AM

Mana Static does not need to be cast on the same plane as the targets, because it doesn't actually target the targets. It targets the area, and then the background count incidentally kills spirits. That makes it the best spell.

-Frank

Posted by: Ryu Jun 4 2008, 12:56 PM

I´d cast Slaughter Spirit at Force 11 before I´d cast Mana Static 8. Larger AoE, still lower drain, a couple of net hits is enough for anything. Mana Static is great, but less so for straight-out killing spirits. Shutting them down once they enter a certain room while killing the small ones is more like it.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 07:22 PM

Mana Static isn't a DV. It creates background count, which reduces a Spirit's Force directly. The Force 8 spirit becomes a Force 0 spirit, and pops instantly (double check the rules in Street Magic, this is how background count works for spirits, whether they are in physical or astral, as Frank just confirmed).
Yes, getting enough hits is the tricky part there, but I'd still argue that against lower level spirits (around Force 4) mana static is just too good a house cleaner too pass up. A Force 4 Spirit still has a chance of resisting a Force 4 Slaughter, whereas it can't do anything against Mana Static, and as has been previously mentioned, Mana Static has the advantage of not wasting a slot on a spell that isn't general purpose.

Slaughter is way cooler, but I'm playing devil's advocate here and making the case for Mana Static being rather overpowered.

Posted by: Magus Jun 4 2008, 07:55 PM

If I recall Mana Static is not a permanent spell. It disappates 1 force level/hour.
It is sustainable but I do not know if you can quicken it with Karma. This has been discussed before in other threads. I do not remember if a consensus was ever found.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 4 2008, 08:06 PM

in this particular instance, DV was meant to mean drain value i think.

Posted by: MaxHunter Jun 4 2008, 08:37 PM

but do not forget the after effects!! If you cast mana static force 4 or 5, then your magic and casting ability for the remainder of the scene would be severely crippled. It takes hours to dissipate! You can cast slaughter spirit, wipe out the "air support" and then continue to happily blast the rest of the opposition.

But hey, I am actually playing devil's advocate, I do not really mind what spell is better. I like both.

Cheers,

Max

Posted by: Sma Jun 4 2008, 08:43 PM

Manastatic at force 5 (because even numbers are for suckers) has a drain value of 6. You'll want 18 drain resistance dice to to go with that. For that you get to totally kill a force 4 or lesser spirit while merely inconveniencing everyone else. It's a strong play, but whipping up a force 4 spirit isn't exactly hard or time consuming either, so I fail to see what the hullabaloo is about.

Posted by: Shiloh Jun 4 2008, 08:52 PM

Only if you sustain it for long enough for it to become "Permanent". Otherwise it drops when you want it to (or if you're in its area and it is of higher force than your Magic, it drops just after it's taken effect).

Not arguing either way, just keeping it from degenerating into the sort of guessing game that I sometimes confuse myself into.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 4 2008, 09:19 PM

1. All plans where you just need to have 8+ hits are bad. More so if you want those for casting AND drain.

2. Casting a even-lower-drain version of manaball is a no-brainer for those who can reliably come close to 8 hits on said tests.


Use Mana Static to create areas that are safe from astral attack. Even mundanes can handle force 3( spirits, and lower force ratings are taken care of automatically. If the spirit you want to fight is already there, use the more efficient mana-based direct combat spells.

(Did I mention that I love the sensing metamagic? Force 5 mana static = Initiate degree times 2.5 kilometers warning radius. Just saying.)

Posted by: Fortune Jun 4 2008, 10:35 PM

Yeah. DV is Drain Value. I fail to see how you could possibly be confused by this, especially since you yourself used the exact same terminology in regards to the Drain Value of the two spells in the very post I quoted.

Posted by: Adarael Jun 4 2008, 10:54 PM

I'm not sure that having one really great spell for nuking spirits and hampering magic makes it the 'best spell in the game'. Best spell for nuking dudes, yes. But the practical applications are very limited when compared with Trid Spec, Control Thoughts, Physical Mask, Influence... All kinds of stuff.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 4 2008, 11:55 PM

My mistake. I misread your post.

My argument was that whilst your three stacking Slaughters all deal damage, which the Spirits get to resist with the same pool each time, the Mana Static has no possible resistance at all. I missed that you were comparing cost rather than effect.

As for comparing cost, however, don't forget that each additional spell adds +1 to the Drain of all the spells you cast.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 12:11 AM

So you didn't actually read my post at all.

I did take that into account. I even gave you the exact figures for each spell. Let's recap ...

With three Slaughter Spirit spells at Force 5, with a base DV (Drain Value) of F/2+1, or 3, modified by +2 DV (Drain Value) for two additional spells means that each spell would have a DV (Drain Value) of 5. The Drain from each of these spells is resisted with the caster's full Pool.

One Mana Static cast at Force 8 has a DV (Drain Value) of F/2+4, or 8. This is a lot harder than the three previous Drain resistance tests above.

Also, with Mana Static, for it to be a one-shot kill for Force 8 Spirits (the Spirit level most commonly being used in this thread for whatever reason), you would need a Spellcasting Pool of 24 to do so with any regularity. You would then need a similarly-sized Drain Resistance Pool to consistently shrug off the Drain. And if you don't manage to pull of a one shot kill (8 successes), the Spirits can move out of the AoE without too much trouble and be right back to full strength again.

With the Slaughter Spirit spells, yes the Spirit gets to resist with Willpower (+ Magical Guard or Counterspelling, if either are available), but it has to do it multiple times, and it only takes one net success for each spell to do 6 boxes of damage. Fail by only a single success on only two of the spells and the Spirit is toast, and even if it doesn't the odds are good that the Spirit is damaged in the process. And this applies to every Spirit in the AoE.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 5 2008, 12:58 AM

See, I was assuming you'd be casting Mana Static at the same force as the Slaughters. It still takes two good hits with a slaughter to take down a Force 5 spirit, whereas Force 5 Mana-Static, if you get the hits on the test, will be an instant kill.

Also, I'm not sure about your math. Doesn't Drain round up like everything else?

Bare in mind, I want to be proven wrong here; I'm not looking to prove that I've found the ultimate cheat or something.
Unfortunately what I'm really looking for is some way of reigning in Mana-Static, which their doesn't seem to be without house ruling it. Yes, there are other spells which are more effective under specific circumstances, but that doesn't stop the Troll mage in my party from using Mana-Static to pretty much wipe out every magical encounter he comes up against (being a Troll, he's happy to drop his magic to 1, and then punch the enemy mage to death.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 5 2008, 01:51 AM

Drain is always rounded down.

Why should someone cast Slaughter Spirit at Force 5? If one could cast Mana static 5 instead (drain 6), at least force 11 would be acceptable. Which just happens to be the size of a force 5 spirits condition monitor. One net hit is pretty easy to achieve against 10 resisting dice.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 03:31 AM

We were discussing Force 8 Spirits (because that was the Spirit level others were using as an example), as I mentioned a couple of times.

Spellcasting hits (not net hits, but total hits) are limited to the Force of the spell. The most hits you could get with a Force 5 spell is 5, regardless of Dice Pool (unless you spend Edge in a specific manner).

A Force 5 Mana Static will merely piss of a Force 8 Spirit until he gets out of the AoE, which should take about one Initiative Pass or so, because the maximum Background Count generated would be 5. You need to have the Force at least equal to the number of hits you require.



Drain rounds down!

Posted by: Nefacio Jun 5 2008, 05:05 AM

continuing with the example of force 8 spirits, lets say a group face a powerful mage who summons out a Force 8 spirit, mana static might do a great job, even if not achivieng 8 hits it will reduce the Mage capability hardly and the spirts inmunity to normal weapon will be reduced so the rest of the group can affect it easyly.

EDIT: it hasnt to be a powerful mage to summon a force 8 spirit.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 06:37 AM

But it is still a fixed location, which the mage and/or Spirit can move out of at will. Sure, the location can be moved before the permanent effect sets in (something I hope is fixed in future errata), but it still requires an action to do so, and doesn't prevent the targets from moving yet again out of the area of effect.

Posted by: Oracle Jun 5 2008, 06:54 AM

I always thought that to be the case. But what about this answer from the last Shadowrun chat transcript?

http://shadowrun4.com/resources/downloads/chatlogs/05172008Shadowrun.pdf

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 5 2008, 07:01 AM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=22143&hl=\may+chat\

Posted by: Oracle Jun 5 2008, 07:03 AM

Thank you! I apparently missed that answer.

Posted by: Kerberos Jun 5 2008, 09:30 AM

Unless there's a cyber samuria with a gun nearby. Force 8 is hard to kill (I tried). Force 6 is relatively easy (with APDS and an assualt riffle).

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 10:35 AM

True. I'm not at all discounting the usefulness of Mana Static. Merely pointing out that it does have drawbacks, and is not the be-all-and-end-all when it comes to spells in general, or even Spirit-killing in particular.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 5 2008, 10:43 AM

Now the trick is to get everyone in the AoE... indoors you are pretty likely to kill your own magic. If you don´t, the spirit will happily leave the AoE to attack you at full force. The maximum immediately effective force is (your magic -1), because you need to sustain the spell as long as the spirit is alive. While you do that, all awakened chars of the group are practically neutered. Easy to use is... different.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 5 2008, 05:52 PM

That said We are basically looking at 2 situations mopping up lots F4ish spirits, and pelting F8 spirits.

2 slaughter spirit spells have a very good chance of knocking out a ton of spirits, as does mana static. The difference is that Mana Static only relies on one roll. If you are wiping out gobs of spirits, there is a very good chance a couple spirits get lucky and win one or both resist rolls versus slaughter spirits. If you nail your spell casting roll with mana static though they are just dead - period. They can't get lucky versus background count. If you don't nail it you can spend one edge almost certainly nail the roll. So what you are looking here is a little more reliability for extra drain. I'd say that mana static is better because it has more uses and spirit killing and in the long run as a magician trends to infinity they can laugh at 6S drain. What clenches this for me though, is that after the fairly comparable first round, with mana static you get another 9 rounds where your can spend a complex action to move the effect of the sustained spell and nuke any spirits you see with a complex action(the same as spell casting) without further drain. Using movement to zoom around a big hive instagibing spirits with a drainless AoE effect for 9 rounds is crazy buff.

Now versus that force 8 spirit, I'd also take mana static. Honestly if your team isn't at least risking a 100% fatalities from an encounter with an F8 spirit, your team has enough magical ability to win any small group that doesn't have counter spelling. Maybe you can win them with mental manipulation, turn to goo, influence, illusions, or good old stun ball, some how you can... most of the time. This is why at my table (if no where else) you really aren't going to see F8 spirits without counter spelling. An optimized starting magician with a DP around 14 (soft caps and 2 +2s from somewhere) has no real hope hit the spirit twice with a split DP. Even without out counterspelling and no penalties the spirit has very comparable resist dice to the casting pool. And as I remember Fortune telling me in regards to splitting DP, penalties are more common than bonuses. If you edge on both tests and the spirit doesn't do the same (which they SM suggests they would to avoid disruption) a one shot is very possible, but far from guaranteed. Net results for slaughter spirit: Likely nothing, good luck/favorable conditions could easily lead to 50%-75% damage with -2 to -4 wound penalties, 1 shot possible but extremely unlikely even spending 2 edge.

Now let's look at mana static. A Spell casting DP of 14 will reliable yield 4+ hits without edge. That alone will automatically debuff an F8 spirit to the point that a sam or even a good drone acting autonomously can reliably drop it on one action phase. With edge you expect to get background count of around 7 14 -> 4 hits/10 misses rerolled to 7 hits. . Again, the spirit can not counter this use of edge by spending its own edge so it just gets to eat it. The 7 hits is actually low, if you add up the dice I rounded down and the rule of 6, the expected result is actually slightly higher than 8. Net results: Reliable debuffing to the point a teammate, a really good drone, or a specifically optimized F5 spirit, could 1 shot it reliably. With edge, you can expect crippling rebuffs and 1 shots are common.

Posted by: Nefacio Jun 5 2008, 09:58 PM

totally agree, was exactly my point, agains high force spirit, with the correct organization of the group, taking action one right after the other its the winning strategy.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 5 2008, 11:07 PM

Relying on Edge expenditure when making calculations and comparisons (especially when it is only being applied to one side of the equation) just seems wrong to me.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 6 2008, 12:28 AM

I agree with fortune that slaughter spirits is probably better at taking out spirits. I'd still take mana static because it takes out people using foci to boost themselves to crazy town and shuts down mages in general by making them pretty much unable to cast (unless your GM routinely uses magic 11 mages) at force 5. Heck at force 3 which is pretty weak, it makes people with magic 5 have to overcast to get at best, a F1 spell, and M6 can get force 3.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 12:58 AM

My post from the nerfing thread dealing with this topic ...

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 6 2008, 04:54 AM

I can easily see where you are comeing from on that one. Only problem is what happens when you sustain a spell on a plane which is flying?
your actual location is changing very rapidly with regards to the biosphere....

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 6 2008, 07:00 AM

You absolutely right. It is really lopsided to spend edge then your opponent can't. But there is no defense test versus background count for the spirits to spend edge. Hence Mana Static getting called the one-shot nut punch. With the Slaughter Spirit I basicly said "well a starting mage doesn't have the dice they need to one shot an F8 and if they try edge the spirit likely counters with edge".

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 09:41 AM

That's not what I mean (which I suspect you know). I mean that, from what I saaw, you were comparing a non-edge enhanced Slaughter Spirit with Edge-enhanced Spirit Mana Static. Not quite fair, in my opinion.

No starting mage that I can envision can one shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static [i]with any consistency[i]. You need a Dice Pool of 24 (and the same sized Dice Pool to resist Drain). You can throw Edge into the mix, but that is a depletable resource, and can't be relied on in every situation.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 09:46 AM

I'm not concerned with the spell's or caster's relative location to the earth, or any of that. Mana Static is trying to permanently (semi anyway) affect an actual physical location. Being able to move the spell around is like being able to change the subject of a Heal spell at will (for whatever reason). It makes no sense to me.

Posted by: W@geMage Jun 6 2008, 10:35 AM

Also don't forget that casting multiple spells allows multiple counterspelling attempts, so those Slaughters could end up severely weakened.
The Mana Static has only 1 roll to spend Edge on, so could give more of a bang than attempting multiple damage spells.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 6 2008, 10:53 AM

I do not think you get to move the AoE of Duration:P spells. I think they tried to reference Duration:S spells, and forgot that Duration:P spells are sustained for some time. This one may be for the FAQ. (Disclaimer: This opinion is formed based on the german wording)

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 6 2008, 01:30 PM

I also agree with this interpretation. The text for moving a sustained spell could be referring to if the spell is type: S and not if you are currently sustaining it. This would make it so P spells would be immobile once cast.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 03:08 PM

I think a little too much attention is being paid to multiple spells. As has been mentioned by several people, if a spellcaster has the Pool to reliably cast a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect and then shrug off the resulting Drain, then he has the Pool to cast a whopping, high-Force Slaughter Spirit (or even Mana Bolt if dealing with only one Spirit), which would only require one net hit to put the Spirit down.


That was my point all along. I hope it is clarified in a future Errata, or at least the FAQ.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 6 2008, 07:43 PM

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 6 2008, 07:44 PM

A clarification here would be nice.

Actually I really didn't know which way you were taking it but if you want to compare the millage from a point of edge in both these spells, Mana static will come out on top again. 1 point of edge on Mana static give you the DP it takes to 1-shot the spirit with average rolls. Also no one on the opposite team can counter in kind. What's more if you are spending Edge you can get around the hit cap, meaning you can cast the spell at a moderate force with a moderate drain. SS, on the other hand, does not have the punch to 1-shot the spirit without overcasting or multi-casting, edge or no. If they the spirit has spell casting available the multi-casting is shut down with or without edge. If not you have to spend 2 points of edge against a vulnerable target to have a good chance of a one shot. For a single casting of an F10 SS to be expected to shot an F8 spirit you need the follow conditions: caster spends edge, and defender does not spend edge or does not have counter spelling. Then you get to eat, what, 6P drain?

Edge for both spells
multi-cast SS: shut down
overcast SS: shut down, 50-75% wounds, one-shots expected. (Depending on defender use of edge and counter spelling)
Mana Static: one-shots expected with crippling debuff on a low roll (Depending on nothing)

So the of the options that have a shot, one will vary wildly depending on the situation and has 6P drain, the other always has a chance for a 1-shot, and in some situations a bad merely ravages the target as opposed to slaying out right ... for a drain of 5S.

plus mana static does more than kill spirits.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 6 2008, 08:28 PM

edge only bypasses net hits with edge dice. and only when used before the dice are rolled. which means now you need a huge edge attribute as well as high magic. it's really not likely to let you lower the required force of the mana static spell by more than 1-2.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 6 2008, 11:20 PM

No, I don't want to compare Edge use on either. I don't think it should be a factor in the comparison, as it is not a reliable resource.

Without Edge, Mana Static is not nearly as useful, because of the extremely high 'hit' requirement. As I said above, a person capable of consistently casting a Force 8 Mana Static at maximum effect (and then shaking off the Drain) could also cast a killer Force 11 Slaughter Spirit for less Drain.


I have readily admitted that Mana Static has its uses. My only concern in this thread though, has been with its utility as a 'multiple Spirit killer'. In my opinion, it is not the ultimate spell for that particular purpose.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 12:58 AM

First you said it wasn't fair to spend only one way, so I gave a different example. Then you said you meant the other only one way so I gave a third example. Now you are saying that edge is just unfair. Personally, I think handing F8 spirits and overcast spells specifically designed to kill you is exactly when edge is worth considering. So yes if you say that we can't use edge, and the spirit doesn't have counter spelling, then will SS: occasionally whiff, usually put a really big hurt on the spirit, and almost never one shot it. Mana Static will basically never fail out right, Almost always debuff to the point that the rest of your team can do stuff, and never 1 shot it. Now for the Drain you are looking at 4 or 5 S or 6P IMO the fact that SS has fringe results and MS basically doesn't is an even trade. Of the mid land expected results I still feel mana static wins. Taking ItnW from 16 to 8 is huge. Hell even just cutting it to the point that HE grenades can hurt the thing is huge.

So to tight wrap it up MS is better at rocking low to mid force spirits. If we make the assumptions you want (which I see no reason to) MS has lighter drain and is marginally better in admittedly subjective ways. I think facing F8 spirits is exactly the time to use edge. If you let the caster use edge, MS is the clear winner. IMO anything that it is worth it to put a F8 spirit on it's worth it to get counterspelling as well. If the spirit has counterspelling MS is the clear winner.

---

As a question people are saying that edge has to be used in a specific way to by pass the force limit. My book just says "edge dice" are allowed to exceed force cap. Did I miss an errata or a precise definition of "edge dice"

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 7 2008, 01:55 AM

Man, who cares. It is 100% the case that slaughter spirits is the most effective option for killing spirits on the same plane as you. Mana static is however capable of killing spirits on both planes, and can shut down mages, but has a higher drain code for the cost.

So slaughter spirits is the more specialist niche spell, and mana static is a flexible generalist option at the cost of less effectiveness in the 'killing spirits' role, but much more utility.

Trying to pursade anyone that SS w/AOE is less effective than MS at killing materialized spirits is insane, but I think many people would agree that the anti mage effects and general utility of MS make it worth strong consideration over SS. Given I can only take 8 spells at char gen, I'd stick with MS over SS every time.

Posted by: Jaid Jun 7 2008, 02:16 AM

edge dice are the dice from your edge. most people generally allow that to include exploding 6's regardless of whether they came from your edge originally or not.

see page 67 for this. in particular, the edge dice (they are called that explicitly) are listed as being separate from the rest of the dice pool.

also note that in the section the awakened world, the removal of the cap on hits equal to force is explicitly called out as being *only* the edge dice. if that meant the whole dice pool when you spend edge, that would be completely nonsensical.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 02:26 AM

Ok rather than call me insane would you like to point how i'm wrong? I spell out all my mechanics and assumptions explicitly. Just because something is specialized doesn't mean that it IS the best even if it SHOULD be the best.


About the edge, most uses of edge rather than one specific use of edge give you extra dice that can exceed the force cap?

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 02:26 AM

Not really. I have been against the use of Edge at all all along. I only made a comment about it being unfair to use it for only one spell and not the other when making comparisons. If we are comparing spells, then the base spell should be what is compared, at least in my opinion.


Counterspelling won't make a different in the example I gave. A Force 8 Spirit with Counterspelling rolls 16 Dice to resist, which is rarely going to beat the Spellcaster's Pool of 24, and the Spellcaster needs only one net hit.


As I have said an a number of occasions, Mana Static definitely has its uses. I have only been addressing the title of 'best mother-fucking Horde-o'-Spirits killing spell', which in my opinion does not belong to Mana Static.

I have also addressed the idea of moving supposedly permanent spells. If that ability is removed (in my opinion the correct thing to do), then Mana Static becomes quite a bit less useful, as targets are free to move out of the Area of Effect if they are not immediately neutralized.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 02:32 AM

I didn't call you insane. I spelled out all my mechanics three times, but you aren't seeing what I'm saying.

Given the same Spellcasting and Drain Resistance Pools, Slaughter Spirit is more effective than Mana Static at slaughtering Spirits.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 02:43 AM

I'm not sure where the miss communication is coming from, but I never gave edge to one spell but not the other. When you said rather throw out edge all together, I disagreed with that assumption and went on to show why I think that MS is still better.


If we are using edge MS wins. If you are not using edge how you are getting 24. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I always though that any spell you were sustaining counted as a sustained spell. I dropped this point when people started contesting it because the argument wouldn't get anywhere, I don't have a strong stance on, and I don't need it to make my case.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 7 2008, 02:51 AM

Yup, it's entirely valid to take both or either, they have different roles. I'd submit that MS is great not because it is the best spell at anything it can do, but its because it can do so much (take out spirits on your plane, the other plane and shut down mages). The taking out spirits on the other plane is unique capability, and its probably the leading spell at shutting down mages, and is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 03:23 AM

>... is merely good at taking out spirits on your plane.
No one has even tried to contested my claim that MS is better for taking out F4 spirits. For the F8 example the counter points have been a miss understanding about my use of edge, and then ignoring my example with out it and my reasoning for including it.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 03:38 AM

Do you read any of my posts?

Dismissing Edge from the equation, for the reasons I listed earlier.

Since the Force of Spirit being bandied about earlier in the thread was 8 (reasonable for a higher-end Spirit), that is the Force I used in my example. Statistically you need a Spellcasting Pool of 24 to consistently get 8 'hits' on any given spell. I never stated where this mythical Dice Pool is coming from, merely that it is the minimum needed to get 8 'hits' with any regularity.

So for a Force 8 Mana Static, which is the minimum Force needed to one-shot a Force 8 Spirit, you would need the above-mentioned Dice Pool of 24. You would also need that same size Drain Resistance Pool to totally shrug off the 8 DV from the Mana Static spell.

Now, given those same Dice Pools when casting Slaughter Spirit, you can cast it at Force 11 and expect 8 hits on the Spellcasting test. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard (or Counterspelling) has a Resistance Pool of 16, and can therefore expect to regularly generate 5 1/3 'hits' to resist. Since one net 'hit' on the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit will do 12 boxes of damage (which is exactly what a Force 8 Spirit has), the spellcaster can typically take the Spirit(s) down in one-shot with a couple of successes to spare. On top of that, Drain for the Force 11 Slaughter Spirit is a mere 6 DV, which would only require a Drain Resistance Pool of 18 to reliably shake off the Drain, as opposed to the 24 Dice Pool necessary to consistently achieve the same result with Mana Static.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 03:53 AM

Force 4 Spirits ...

For Mana Static to take out Force 4 Spirits in one shot, it needs to be cast at a Force of 4, with 4 'hits' on the spellcasting test. This requires a minimum Spellcasting Pool of 12 to achieve with any regularity. The resulting Drain Value is 6, which to eliminate entirely needs a Drain Resistance Pool of 18.

Slaughter Spirit, on the other hand, cast at a Force of 9 with the same Spellcasting Pool would also usually generate 4 'hits'. Force 4 Spirits have a Resistance Pool of 4, or 8 for those with Magical Guard, and will typically generate 1 1/3 'hits', or 2 2/3 'hits' respectively. Since only one net 'hit' is required to do 10 boxes of damage (which is the total number of boxes that a Force 4 Spirit possesses), the Slaughter Spirit will almost always be successful, statistically speaking, even against those Spirits with Magical Guard. Now we get to the Drain Value, which for the Force 9 Slaughter Spirit is 5, needing only a Drain Resistance Pool of 15 to consistently bring down to nothing, which is 3 Dice less than that needed for a Mana Static with the same 'Spirit Killing' effect.

Posted by: Mordinvan Jun 7 2008, 04:09 AM

I thought use of edge always invoked rule of 6 for ALL dice if used before the roll was made, and not just the edge dice?
Is it in the errata somewhere?

(ignore me, I saw this same question above)

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 06:06 AM

Fortune, I'm fully aware it was Cthulhudreams who call me insane. You've always keep it to the facts even if I'm little surprised by the scale of our miss communication here.

As for your F4 example allow me to respond. Let's roll with your assumption that for splatting 4F spirits we should be talking about F4 MS and F11 SS. Those drain codes are 6S vs 5P. That isn't exactly a win for you. The reason is that you can't stop the discussion with expected values. 15 DP is not a magic safety net, you will take P when you try this not in infrequently. Also the spirits can get lucky on there resistance roll. Something that doesn't happen with MS.

Pros for MS: More reliable, less than half strength signature, doesn't require Magic 6 (meaning you can have cyber and/or avoid the hard cap)
"Pros" for SS: lower but more dangerous drain code.

Conclusion 3 nominal benefits vs. 1 questionable benifit.

---

About the 24 thanks for the clarification, you were confusing confusing my examples. Without edge a 400bp magician basically can't 1-shot an F8 without edge using either spell. With edge (which I still maintain is a reasonable consideration when facing an F8 spirit/s) MS wins for the reasons I gave. Then at your urging I spelled out the no edge options where I still feel MS wins. You have yet to address that post.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 06:38 AM

Note that for Force 4 Spirits I only needed to use a Force 9 Slaughter Spirit, not Force 11.


I'm not sure where you get this. With Mana Static you must get 4 hits for this to be effectively called a 'spirit killer'. If you don't get those hits, the Spirits do not die, and can subsequently move. Admittedly there is no resistance test, but you still could get a bad roll just as easily as you give the Spirit credit for rolling well, and not get the required amount of hits.


This is true, which is one reason I originally suggested multi-casting lower Force spells.


Note the Force of the spell is 9, which does not require a Magic of 6, merely 5.


The Physical Drain is another reason for casting multiple lower Force spells. Overall though, the DV is lower for Slaughter Spirit, and therefore easier to heal if Drain is taken.


Correction: 1 nominal benefit vs 1 very useful benefit (I don't think it's fair to call a lower DV a 'questionable' benefit)



You are partly right. Offhand, I don't see any way for a 400 BP Magician to reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Mana Static without Edge. Even with Edge you would be hard pressed to get the required Dice Pool of 24 for consistent success.

But you are wrong about Slaughter Spirit. Without Edge, a 400 BP Magician could indeed reliably one-shot a Force 8 Spirit with Slaughter Spirit. A Dice Pool of higher than 16 is all that is needed, which is quite attainable. Magic 5 + Spellcasting 6 + Combat Spell Specialization 2 + Lion Mentor Spirit 2 + Power Focus 2 = 17 Dice Pool. A Force 8 Spirit with Magical Guard has 16 Dice for resistance, so statistically would lose out to the spellcaster. I could even up the Magic to 6 and/or use a Force 3 Combat Spell Focus instead of the Power Focus to pump the Pool even higher, making it even more of a sure thing.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 7 2008, 06:39 AM

Mana Static is not more reliable. To kill the Force 4 Spirit you have to get all four hits. That's exactly like the target getting 3 spell defense hits every time against a Slaughter Spirit (since Slaughter Spirits only needs 1 net hit). But in reality, spirits frequently get less than 3 hits on their spell defense. Indeed, the average is less than 3 hits even for Force 4 spirits who have Magical Guard.

Mana Static doesn't allow a spell resistance roll, but you need to get more hits to make it work than your target is liable to get on a spell resistance test regardless. If you only roll 3 hits on your Slaughter Spirit spell, a Force 4 Spirit is still very likely to be dead. While if you get 3 hits on a Mana Static the spirit will just move into another area where it can be full size again.

-Frank

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 7 2008, 07:39 AM

See, I think this is where we diverged in the first place. My intention in starting this thread was not to ask what the best tool was for killing hordes of spirits, but rather to address the fact that in addition to it's many uses as an excellent defensive and utility spell, Mana Static also served as an effective (not best, just very effective) horde spirit killer. That other spells may be better for this specific purpose does not change the fact that Mana Static has all that and more, and as a result of it's immense utility appears to be a somewhat overpowered spell. In particular I was addressing the (in my opinion) somewhat flawed implementation of the Permanancy rules, which allow Mana Static to be used as a burst effect spirit hose without shutting down the casters own magical capabilities, because they just have to stop sustaining the spell, and they get to use their full magic again (after their fellow runners have finished hosing the enemy mages).

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 07:51 AM

I understand that. Conversation flowed on. Shrug.

I don't know what more I can say on the topic of Mana Static being overpowered. I think if it were made to be stationary while being sustained that would help alleviate some of the problem. I also think that if the Background Count rose over the course of sustaining the spell instead of appearing all at once it would be better.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 7 2008, 08:06 AM

If it took an entire combat round just to get a Background Count of 1, that spell would be ass and no one with any sense would ever cast it.

Mana Static is really good because it shuts down magic. If it took a long time for it to generate decent penalties, magic would not get shut down and the spell would be just this side of completely useless. Mana Static doesn't do some other thing in some other situation. It just shuts down magic. If you won't let it do that, you should just erase it from the book.

-Frank

Posted by: Earlydawn Jun 7 2008, 10:05 AM

I don't think anybody is upset with it nullifying magic as per the description. It's simply a little hard to swallow the spell blinking supposedly mighty multi-planar entities out of existance within the span of a combat turn - three seconds.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 7 2008, 01:11 PM

Dude, it's Shadowrun. Combats last 3 seconds. Anything you can't do in 3 seconds isn't worth doing. If you attack a spirit with a manabolt or a high powered rifle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to levitate someone's motorcycle it takes 3 seconds. If you decide to shape the pavement into a severe tire damage nightmare that takes 3 seconds.

It's Shadowrun. You do things. In 3 seconds.

-Frank

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jun 7 2008, 01:44 PM

For money.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 04:11 PM

I'm quite alright with making it semi-useless if cast 'in combat'. It is still a useful spell, especially if the caster has time to plan ahead.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 7 2008, 04:14 PM

The point where it becomes more effective to take detect life/shape metal/powerball though is fundamentally the same as removing it from the book.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 04:33 PM

So your point is that there really should be only the 12 most useful spells in the book?

Some spells are more effective than others. They doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. Useful is subjective anyway. I mean, Mana Static is never one of my top 12 choices.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 7 2008, 04:38 PM

Why would you advocate nerfing something that is not even good enough for your own magicians to learn?

-Frank

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 04:48 PM

Because game balance goes beyond the edge of my personal character sheet.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 7 2008, 05:00 PM

Yes it does. But do you see the inherent problem with claiming that a spell is overpowered if you personally eschew it, not for theme or taste but merely because you don't think that it is good enough?

-Frank

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 7 2008, 05:53 PM

I gave a little to much ground, and pushed my argument a little to far. If we ban edge, and use your ruling on moving permanents, and are dealing with a mage a couple dice short of the complete max DP specialized in arguably the worst spell category, you got me on the F8. On the F4s I still don't think you get to claim a win drain code. I fully admit my internal logic on the reliablity was a little fuzzy. It was basiclly that both spells should get enough hits to win and that the spirits shouldn't make the resistance roll. I was thinking 1 chance for bad luck is better than 2 chances for bad luck. I'm not dating a statistician any more so I can't come back with the exact odds, but I wouldn't be surprised either way. Until I get those numbers, I'll listen to people who have played way more than me.

edit: deleted totally random quote

Posted by: Apathy Jun 7 2008, 05:56 PM

Regardless of whether it would be useful for offensive and mobile runners, I think that its utility to security mages guarding static positions would be obvious.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 7 2008, 06:39 PM

That logic doesn't even begin to make sense.

You don't call up a contact in 3 seconds.
You don't plant a cutting charge in 3 seconds.
You don't assemble a sniper rifle in 3 seconds.
You don't restart a faulty getaway vehicle in 3 seconds.
You don't patch up someone's wounds with first aid in 3 seconds.

All of those are dramatic actions that could take place during the middle of a run.
Your reasoning only works if an adventure starts with "OK, you started the run, everyone roll initiative. We stay in combat turns until the run is over. Now here comes the first wave of guards..."

There will be downtime. There will be breaks between fights or other action scenes for people to heal or re-equip, or do all the other interesting stuff that basically forms the actual substance of a shadow run. There will be, essentially, times when people are not shooting at you. Something doesn't have to be usable in the space of one turn for it to have an effect on combat, or on your tactical situation in general.
Mana-Static, as a spell that allows you to prepare a defence in one area, could be extremely effective. It still only takes seconds, up to about half a minute, to set up. That's not a huge amount of time. Sure, a lot of bullets could fly in those 30 seconds, but bullets aren't always flying.

Posted by: Zak Jun 7 2008, 07:12 PM

In combat this logic keeps you alive. Outside of it, well you named it.

Posted by: Fortune Jun 7 2008, 11:29 PM

I never said it was not 'good enough'. I specifically stated that 'usefulness is subjective', and that Mana Static didn't make my top 12 list. I don't even really think it is all that overpowered except for the BC happening all at once, which we have discussed already.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 8 2008, 07:36 AM

That's fair enough, and I would agree entirely with that argument. What I disagree with is the idea that combat is the only thing that matters on a run, or that anything that happens outside of combat cannot be dramatic.

If your only tactical options in a fight are ones that take three seconds or less, that means you didn't prepare for the fight properly, either because you didn't get a chance, or because you didn't take the chance when it was available. The latter situation is, I would argue, what spells like Mana-Static should be for.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 8 2008, 09:53 AM

Mana Static almost never works for that though. Spirits can move in 3 dimensions and can physically see the extent of Mana Static. It's almost impossible to get a Mana Static trap to do much of anything in Shadowrun. If the enemy doesn't want to go into your Mana Static, they won't.

If you can't drop it in a hurry, the spell becomes almost completely worthless. It goes into Shattershield territory - still has uses, but so very obscure that almost no one is ever going to learn the spell. You may as well drop it from the book entirely, since you will probably not see it in play.

If you want to deny areas, then Mana Barriers drop instantaneously and cost less drain. If you want to kill spirits, then Stunblasts drop instantaneously and cost less drain. Frankly, if you want to stop people from casting spells you can usually do much the same by just dropping flak into the air - blocked LOS means no spellcasting.

Mana Static has ridiculous drain and is a useful spell because it's versatile. If you make it show up in non-combat time, it's not versatile anymore. Now it just sucks.

-Frank

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 8 2008, 05:39 PM

Job done.

It doesn't have to "trap" anything to be effective. If the enemy's only possible solution to your defence is "don't go there for a few hours", your defence has worked. If putting up a mana-static keeps spirits from raiding the area where the hacker is running the data-steal, job's a good 'un. Sure, stunball works, but stunball isn't an automatic first strike on anything entering the area, before they even materialise.

Stunball is for when they decide that they're high enough force to run the static anyway. Static + stunball = pop.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 8 2008, 08:16 PM

Mana Static can protect your allies when you are away. Anything that is strong enough to enter is then weak enough to be defeated.

For my practical gaming use, manabolt is the main spirit killer. Large numbers of weak spirits are usually handled by the mundanes before I even get to act. Force 4 spirits are not immune to grenades at all.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 9 2008, 04:31 AM

Didn't you read the bit where frank pointed out the flaws in that approach. Ie that I can use manabarrier instead and it has less drain and comes up faster. It's even more effective, as while it defends those inside, friends of the creator are completely unaffected by it, so you can still lay down a barrage on those outside.

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 9 2008, 05:38 AM

F6 is huge break point for spirits. The extra optional power is nice, but 12 hardened armor is from ItNW mean immunity to schmucks with HE grenades.

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Jun 9 2008, 07:30 AM

A mana barrier does not have many of the additional utility effects of mana-static. It doesn't also shut down enemy mages for one thing, which can be really useful when facing large numbers of awakened forces. What's more, a spirit can force it's way through a mana-barrier, but if they come into mana-static they are guaranteed to suffer some kind of ill effects.

I don't disagree that tweaking the effects of mana-static might also warrant tweaking the drain-code, I'm just arguing that there is a place in the game for effects which take a little time to prepare. It's the same as, say, setting a bunch of trip-wire explosives; a perfectly valid and effective tactic if you have the time, and if you do it properly. Not every group of runners is going to make use of it, but then not every group of runners makes use of many of the more interesting spells. They're still there for the people that do find interesting ways to build tactics around them.

In the end, nothing else out there can match the ability to deny 10 enemy phys-ads access to their powers whilst your party of mundanes wails on them, all for the cost of your mage not casting some spells which enemy spell defence would likely nullify anyway. If that effect comes with some required preparation, I don't particularly see that as unreasonable. Sure, not every party has just a mage and a bunch of norms, but then not every party is going to make use of these kind of tactics.

As always, your mileage may vary, but I'm offering up a different way of looking at the game. I've never really seen Shadowrun as a pure "run-and-gun" action game, and that should be reflected in more than just the legwork, but also in how your players react to situations during play.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 9 2008, 08:52 AM

I guess my problem is that in my experience the only things worth having are offensive capabilities, low profile defense capabilities and ambush capabilities. 'static' mana static is none of those things. It is big, obvious and many of the people that would be effected by it can see it. The reason static visable defenses are useless is much the same reason that panther cannons are useless. You need to avoid a symmetric conflict to live in SR verse, because team corporation has bigger guns.

It is a huge world apart from tripwire explosives. That is a very deadly ambush that is very hard to see. Mana static doesn't do that though. Mages can actually see it from quite a distance off, so they won't walk into it and will in stead shell you from outside. For those that cannot see it, they step in, know they are in a very nasty background count, and take a step backwards, then overcast a force 9 stunball that really isn't affected by a force 4 mana static because they are not standing in it. Or throw a grenade. Or whatever.

Its really not even in the same league. You've actually gone backwards, because your magic 6 mage standing in the r4 count is unable to cast spells, but the magic 6 mage standing outside IS able to cast spells and can get right on with killing you.

Now if you changed it so it had no obvious indicators until someone tried to do something, it might actually be quite good because I can use it as an ambush. But, alas, no, it doesn't, it just says "Killing ground here, please grenade or suppress overlooking positions"

Now for the other problem. While it would still have uses, I have to spend 3 BP and use one of my 8 spell slots to take the spell. It has to be better than shape metal, control thoughts or detect life.

Posted by: Apathy Jun 9 2008, 03:45 PM

My understanding of background count is that the force 9 stunball would effectively be a force 5 stunball for all targets operating inside the perimeter of the mana static spell. Not nearly as good as if he stayed in the perimeter and had his magic reduced to 1 (and therefore could only cast at a max power of force 2), but still a significant benifit.

A related question might be: where would this spell see common use?

Quickened into tanks and APCs to keep manifesting spirits out.
Cast on airplanes to enforce rules against magic use.
Cast in bottlenecks that the runners have to go through when entering/leaving a secure facility.
Where else?

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 9 2008, 04:09 PM

Quickening Mana Static is impossible because it is already "permanent."

Putting Mana Static on an airplane is a bad tactic because you could have put a spirit on the plane instead that would protect and enhance the plane with Guard and Movement. If you have that kind of Drain code to spare on a single plane, you'd want to use Conjuring, not Sorcery.

Putting mana static on a "bottleneck" is a worthless tactic because it makes the killing ground visible. There's no such thing as an area that people "have" to go through, if nothing else they can use magic or explosives to cut through a wall. There are merely areas that are easier and areas which are harder to go through. If you put traps on areas that are easy to go through they may well work because enemies are likely to take easy routes. But if you label those trapped areas you're just giving tactical tempo to the enemy. Suddenly they only go through those areas if they know something you don't instead of vice versa.

So no, none of those plans are good. Mana Static is good if you want to suppress all magic in a small area in an emergency situation. That's it. That's all it does. If you make it so that it doesn't happen in an emergency amount of time, it doesn't do anything at all.

-Frank

Posted by: Faelan Jun 9 2008, 05:34 PM

I have certainly come around on my thinking as regards Mana Static. It really does need to be full effect right away, or it is useless. And seeing as how I misread it previously (I thought it provided a negative background, which it apparently does not), it no longer bothers me from a metaphysics standpoint. I denying someone an area in an obvious way does have uses, but I could just as easily do it in a mundane fashion. Using a slow build up in an area, would result in a spell very rarely used.

Posted by: Tarantula Jun 9 2008, 09:23 PM

My only complaint with mana static (as well as physical barrier/mana barrier and the like) is that they don't give an enemy mage(or spirit if it has magical guard) in their area of effect a counterspelling roll against them. Give that, and they'd be A'OK by me.