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Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 17 2008, 07:56 AM

Just wondering how hopeful you are all.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 17 2008, 07:58 AM

i have never been much of a fan of wholesale house rules rewrites...

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 17 2008, 08:03 AM

I'd bet that Frank's rules will be more cohesive and mathematically better balanced as unwired is committed to full backwards compatibility and frank's setup is the product of one man with a single vision (natch) and a compulsion to set things out in a logically consistent framework.

I'm equally sure that unwired's rules will have more traction with the dumpshock community.

Posted by: Blade Jun 17 2008, 08:09 AM

What do you mean by "stronger"?

Posted by: Stahlseele Jun 17 2008, 10:44 AM

Franks rules are too complicated for me and i don't play 4th, but i voted for his because they seem to make more sense then the ones in the bok right now . .

Posted by: Grinder Jun 17 2008, 11:06 AM

You can't compare the rules "right now" with Frank's houserules, as Unwired isn't released yet.

Posted by: Ryu Jun 17 2008, 12:24 PM

I´m missing a "Moon-Hawk+(BBB)+Unwired" option. I´m rather certain that we will choose that

Posted by: Cheops Jun 17 2008, 02:40 PM

I personally have never had a problem with the RAW so I see zero reason to use Frank's.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jun 17 2008, 02:48 PM

Honestly, this seems premature. I haven't even read Unwired and I might like it a lot.

Having a discussion about whether rules that I might write in the future after I inevitably read and find myself dissatisfied with a book which has not even been printed are worth using is weird. I appreciate the note of confidence or whatever, but it seems a bit early.

-Frank

Posted by: WeaverMount Jun 17 2008, 06:36 PM

eh yeah I wasn't expecting a ton of conversation because Unwired isn't out. That's why I asked people to 'place bets'. I going to have to agree with Cthulhudreams though. That seems pretty dead on. Mostly I'm just excited because to open up the matrix as a stage in my game. We've been handwaving it with NPCs for about a year now. I just really wonder what it will look like

Posted by: deek Jun 17 2008, 06:52 PM

Honestly, however Unwired pans out, I am still quite skeptical that anyone is going to find fluidity at the gaming table when the hacker is doing his thing. Unless every runner wants to participate in legwork in the matrix or some how assisting the hacker at the same time, the fundamental flaw is time. It can take a little under an hour out of game to resolve 18 seconds in the matrix. Is anyone else, outside of the matrix, going to be able to find something in-game to do for those 18 seconds?

Even if you just leave matrix "stuff" as RAW...you still have the same fundamental flaw...and I still haven't figured out anyway to give the matrix an important role yet involve an entire team. It comes down to either having 4 guys sit around playing rock band while the hacker and I navigate through a node or oversimplify his matrix actions (outside of combat, that is) to a single extended test so we can have that 18 seconds in game take no longer than 60 seconds out of game!

Posted by: Dashifen Jun 17 2008, 08:09 PM

I've suggestions, but we probably should clutter this thread. If you're interested in the discussion, start a new one and PM me so I notice The short answer, though, is to make sure that the hacker isn't the star and the rest of the team the supporting cast. The hacker might make a roll to find out the target often visits Jimmy's Deli on 54th. Then, it's up to the other players to try to get Jimmy to spill on the target, stake out Jimmy's to try and catch the target, etc. The hacker is happy since he/she got a place to start and the rest of the team is cool to since they get to be involved as well.

Posted by: WearzManySkins Jun 17 2008, 08:17 PM

Sorry with Franks Brain Hacking part of his rules is just too far out there past the Twilight Zone for me.

WMS

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 17 2008, 08:41 PM

Well I have no idea how well my little tweaks will work with Unwired, but I will say this: I am very much looking forward to Unwired.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Jun 17 2008, 08:46 PM

Easy fix.

"Brain Hacking" requires an active Direct Neural Interface. Subject's operating in Cold Sim receive +2 to their resistance. Subject's not operating in Simsense receive +6 to their resistance.


On topic, I voted for Unwired, but that is more of a hope than a prediction as to which will be superior.

Posted by: paws2sky Jun 17 2008, 08:53 PM

I'm in the "too early to tell camp." If I had to place I bet, I'd lean toward BBB+Unwired, for two reasons:

First, I'm running SRM Denver. I'm trying to make the game as RAW as possible.

Second, I'm cautious about wholesale rules re-writes. (Though, I have to say that I really enjoy most of Frank's descriptive text and examples in his alternate rules.)

-paws

Posted by: Valrus Jun 17 2008, 08:56 PM

I'm fairly new here, I've seen Franks stuff, but I'm curious what Moon-Hawks tweaks are, anyone got a link?

Posted by: WearzManySkins Jun 17 2008, 10:05 PM

Even easier fix do not use it at all.

WMS

Posted by: RunnerPaul Jun 17 2008, 11:08 PM

I've got an alternate take on a "fix". The main gripe seems to boil down to the fact that there's no precedent in Shadowrun for a technology that allows for brain manipulation at a distance and that it's jarring to introduce it as the fully mature technology described in Frank's rules.

So, my solution was to add a rule that says when dealing with a naked brain, you must have a device that is at handshake range or better. Since brains are Signal -1 under Frank's rules, this means you have to be within 10cm, solving the "across the room" problem while preserving the basic concept that "not having your brain hooked into a Firewalled PAN via DNI leaves you vulnerable".

This is very similar to Muspellsheimr's "DNI is required" with one important exception. Technomancers are considered to be at Connection range to everything within reach of their signal, including naked brains. Since Connection range is better than Handshake range, this means Technomancers can pwn a naked brain with impunity without having to slap a trodenet unwillingly upon someone's head or sneak a signal relay microdrone within 10cm.

The reasoning behind this is as I said above. There's no precedent for a technology that allows for brain manipulation at a distance, but the Technos aren't a technology, they're something else entirely. Once you've bought the premise of Magical WiFi Brains, it only takes a little more effort to buy the rest of the bit that magical brains can reach out and touch other brains. It certainly makes TMs scarier from the standpoint of the general public and helps further justify the anti-TM hysteria that's already been established in the canon. It's also a nice perk to counteract the feeling laid down by the original rules that "Technomancers are teh suxxors!"

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jun 17 2008, 11:34 PM

I actually find frank's stuff is usually radically simpler, because 85% or so of the tests you make are Matrix Range, LOS, or Handshake. Not to many are connection.

Because of this they are literally one dice roll and it's great. Really helps integrate the hacking into the flow of the game.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jun 18 2008, 05:25 AM

I'm very likely going to keep Logic + Skill, but i'm definately hanging out for unwired. New things!

Posted by: tsuyoshikentsu Jun 18 2008, 05:36 AM

Unwired,o n the basis that I like to run Core with my own tweaks because people know what they're getting when they join my game.

Posted by: Blade Jun 18 2008, 10:23 AM

I don't like Frank's rules.

I'm waiting for Unwired. If the rules there fix all the problems me and my group have with the BBB rules we'll use them.
If they don't we'll just finalize our house-rules, which still use the BBB's rules as a baseline but expand them a lot.