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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Behavior Of Police Helicopters In Car Chases

Posted by: Zazen Aug 20 2003, 07:05 AM

Anyone have any knowledge of the way police helicopters act in real life when helping in a vehicle persuit? Specifically:

How high do they fly when tailing?
What do they do during a really long pursuit and they start running out of fuel?
What do they do when entering restricted airspace? Does the old "just drive to the airport" trick really work, or is that just movie nonsense? Are there other ways to relatively reliably lose a helicopter?
How do they decide who to tail if the suspects split up (like if one of them bails out of the vehicle and the vehicle drives away)?

Posted by: TekDragon Aug 20 2003, 07:10 AM

what it comes down to is always SAFETY FIRST on the police's part. The heli will fly as low as possible to keep the target in sight. If the heli is running out of fuel, it will most likely break chase to ensure that the heli will fly another day. restricted air space? Not sure. Other ways? Lots of trees, small alleyways, basically, areas where the helicopter will have trouble navigating or keeping track of you. if the subjects split up, chances are ground forces will be on both of them like bees to honey. If not, they will give chace to the one who seems most likely to go down first.

btw, this is my knowledge of canadian helicoptors and procedures in the rcmp. feel free to correct me as it's a couple years old.

Posted by: FlakJacket Aug 20 2003, 07:42 AM

QUOTE (TekDragon)

Other ways? Lots of trees,

Although even today a good thermal imaging camera can still be able to tack you through trees in the middle of the night. Then it's just a case of radiondown that "He's behind that third bush on the left." And half the time they never knew they were being tailed by a helicopter and can't figure out how the hell they got found.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Aug 20 2003, 07:53 AM

There are a few ways of losing the chopper if it is the only thing following you:

Go into a tunnel or some other 'covered area' (mall parking garage, etc).

Get out of the car a do something similar (ie, go into a mall, the subway, or any other crowded and anonymous place.).

Notice that high speed car chases are quite dangerous for all involved, the chopper allows the cops to chase most people pretty safely while they get more cops, set up roadblocks, or whatever.

As for how high the helicopter flies, remember that the chopper has to safely avoid things like wires, bridges and so on. So this will in part depend on the terrain.

As for going near the airport, this depends on the situtation. For 'heliborne surveillance' where they are just watching (and not chasing you) going to the airport will probably make them go away. If they are chasing you for something (especially something really bad), they can probably get the ATCs to stack the landing pattern for a little while (30 minutes is probably about the limit though).

Note that, in the US, police helicopters are not allowed to be armed. So any firing from the helicopter will be done by a guy with a rifle, firing out of an open door. (No chin guns / rockets for you). While this may be different in SR (especially with corp forces), most police forces will not have the budgets (equipment, training, insurance, security, etc) for armed helicopters.

Posted by: annachie Aug 20 2003, 08:27 AM

IRL police helicoptors tend to back off real quick when they take incomming fire. Saw that for myself in Sydney one night. Of course, actually hitting a helicoptor would be bloody difficult.

As for loosing one, well you wont. You'd have to go into an undercover mall parking lot and try to mingle with the crowd or really pull tricks with the heli. Especially at night.

How would the heli's thermal gear cope with a floating flare or three? I realise that the heli could just move around a bit, but would you get enough of a break to get tricky?

Posted by: grendel Aug 20 2003, 11:57 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

Although I am not employed by a law enforcement agency in the role of helicopter support, I do fly helicopters as a profession and I have spoken to both Customs and Law Enforcement pilots about their roles before.

Generally helicopters operating in support of ground units will fly at around 300 to 400 ft. This ensures good obstacle clearance for most power/telephone lines in rural and suburban areas. Also, should the helicopter experience any kind of mechanical difficulties, it is in a good position to effect an emergency landing.

If a helicopter becomes low on fuel during a long pursuit one of two things will happen: either the airborne asset will be pulled off for refueling and then rejoin the chase or it will be replaced by a fresh asset.

The only restricted airspace police helicopters are likely to encounter are around airports and various sites of national security. (White House, Pentagon, etc.) Generally, law enforcement helicopters are granted permission to enter airport airspace if it would not conflict with other airborne traffic. Even if a police helicopter is denied immediate entry, it will probably be allowed to enter once the aircraft on approach/departure has cleared the area. Also, in the wake of 9/11, airports have seen an increase in police and security presence. It wouldn't be hard for pursuit forces to radio ahead to those police already on site and have them waiting for the suspects.

If the pursuit splits up (one in a vehicle, one on foot) the airborne asset will probably stay with the vehicle. Foot pursuit isn't fast enough to warrant a helicopter overhead unless it's moving through dense woods or terrain difficult for pursuers to traverse.

Thermal Imaging systems (Forward Looking Infra Red) are difficult to fool using flares. Most feature a compensation that allows them to continue to view the area despite three or four 'hot spots'. The best bet in evading a helicopter equipped with one of these is to put a lot of obscurants in the air, smoke or rain or thermal chaff, anything that will disrupt the ability of the system to receive thermal energy from its targets.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Aug 20 2003, 01:20 PM

Those reality police shows "World's wildest Police chases" and stuff give a good example of how copters work. Basically they keep track of the target so that in congested areas the bad guys don't get away while police cars back off. parking garages are good since they have top cover but the person has to come out some time. Sure they might shake the copter off but you'd be surprised how often it doesn't work-especially people on bikes who's clothing can be clearly seen.

As for restricted space like driving to the airport, sure the copter will back off, but the car is driving into the arms of much tighter security- gee I shook off the copter and now I've just got the two fraggers on the autocannon to worry about. Someone trying to get into the controlled environment of an airport is going to find security MUCH tighter and liekly to close them down- think about traffic at an airport-it's goinmg no where and that without the police shutting down roads!

Posted by: Ronin Soul Aug 20 2003, 01:46 PM

The behaviour of police helicopters? However you want them to behave IMO. Thoguh realism is good, don't let it get in the way of a fun, exhilirating, tense or terrifying car chase. There is nothing more panic inducing for a runner than to have a helicopter performing "dive and run" attacks with an HMG whilst cars are ramming the back of the runners' escape vehicle.

Is it realistic? No.
Doe it make for exciting gaming? Hell yes!

Of course that won't suit all games. But it does suit high action or really tense "Against the Man" type games, at least IMHO.

Posted by: Game2BHappy Aug 20 2003, 02:52 PM

In the SR world, I would use heavy use of drones to follow any police chases. Under the description of police responses in the New Seattle book it mentions that drones can be the first to show up to a PanicButton call scouting the area before the police arrive.

As for today's chase scenes, the reason we get such great footage of the chases from news crews and from police helicopters is that they get to ignore some of the normal rules that apply to aircraft.

QUOTE

91.119 Minimum safe altitudes; general

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes;

(a) ·Anywhere. ·An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.
(b) ·Over congested areas. ·Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2.000 feet of the aircraft.
© ·Over other than congested areas.
An altitude of 500 feet above the surface except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In that case, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
(d) ·Helicopters. ·Helicopters may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed In paragraph (b) or © of this section if the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface. In addition, each person operating a helicopter shall comply with routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the Administrator.
*** Helicopter operations may be conducted below the minimum altitudes set for fixed-wing aircraft. The reason? The helicopter's unique operating characteristics, the most important of which is its ability to execute pinpoint emergency landings during power failure. Further, the helicopter's increased use by law enforcement and emergency medical service agencies requires added flexibility in the application of many FAA provisions.

As goofy as the wording under the "***" section is, its right off of the faa.gov website.

Posted by: Zazen Aug 21 2003, 05:16 PM

Thank you all for your excellent responses, especially grendel.

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Aug 21 2003, 06:34 PM

Wow. I just read through this thread and realized that if you're on the Dumpshock boards, Shadowrun can teach you all kinds of nifty things about real life.

Now, if I'm ever being pursued by a police helicopter....

Posted by: booklord Aug 21 2003, 06:54 PM

Many of those police forces are actually megacorps. Knight Errant and Lone Star will definitely have a couple of armed helicopters. These helicopters will be flown by riggers and do manuevers with ease that today's pilots would be lucky to survive. They'll even come with auto-pilots so the pilot can concentrate on shooting at you. They may even carry missiles for special occassions. These guys may be called on to take down shadowrunners with assault cannons. Get ready for a nasty fight.

You want to avoid them? Stick to where the people are. Last thing Lone Star wants is for them to get on the news by accidentally killing a lot of people in pursuit of a bunch of criminal shadowrunners.

Posted by: Squire Aug 21 2003, 09:45 PM

First off, I do not know any of the guys on the air unit, so I'm speaking from my own observations here, not from direct knowledge of the air unit's procedures.

That said, the answers follow:

QUOTE

How high do they fly when tailing?

58 feet, 3 inches. Okay, I don't know. Generally they do one of two things-

1: They fly at a fairly low, but not dangerously low altitude so that they can keep the minor details in sight (like being about the read street signs). That means flying at a height of maybe 50 to 100 feet (at a guess based upon visual observations).

Low flight is the standard tactic during an active pursuit (police cars are in pursuit on the ground the the ghetto-bird is just doing overwatch).

2: They fly as high as they can while still keeping the vehicle in sight. They shut down all but the most necessary lights (especially the spot light) and use the infrared to keep an eye on the target vehicle.

This tactic is used to track a car when ground units are not actively pursuing the vehicle. It's useful after the ground units have broken off pursuit if the pursuit becomes too dangerous. They do this to try to let the suspect vehicle think they've lost their pursuers while still keeping track of where they bad guys are going so the ghetto-bird can direct ground units to move in when the suspect car reaches it's desination.

QUOTE

what do they do during a really long pursuit and they start running out of fuel?

They break off pursuit with the chopper and turn it over to ground units. Those helicopers are freaking expensive and so are the pilots, they won't risk crashing one. On such a chase they're probably on the highway, so it's easy for the ground units to keep track of the suspect vehicle. Of course there is also the fact that by that time, they've generally passed into another jurisdiction, which means there may be a new helicoper to turn the chase over to.

Consider also that the news stations generally have agreements with the police departments. There are a lot more news helicopers in most cities than police helicopers and the news guys fly their choppers more often than the police. Dispatch generally knows who to call to see if they can talk the news choppers into lending a hand. The pilots aren't trained in police procedure, but they're still an eye in the sky, and the news stations like it because they get inside information and great footage for the evening news. Most news helicopers (in Denver at least) carry a police radio in the chopper for just these situations.

QUOTE

What do they do when entering restricted airspace? Does the old "just drive to the airport" trick really work?

I really doubt the airport trick will work. They make a lot of use of the helicopter to check the perimeter of the airport in Denver, that means that the helicopter can fly around the airport all they want, including over the parking areas and over the terminal. They just can't fly over the runways. If you think your going to get a car on the runway, I'd rethink that plan. Once you break through the fence the airport will go into panic mode. Flights will be diverted, the airport will be locked down. They'll start playing nasty to get the car stopped in as safe an area as possible, including using lethal force to stop the car (orbital cow anyone?). This might damage the runway or taxiway or tarmac, but those things can be repaired, people cannot. If you break the fence onto the airfield, expect them to track you with cameras for the brief time it takes them to cancel take-offs and wave off landings. Then the chopper will come in (this will take under 2 minutes). By that time all the airport cops will be coming toward you with a "stop that car at all costs" attitude.

QUOTE

Are there other ways to relatively reliable lose a helicopter?

Not many. They have thermo, they have a very good zoom lense for visual or thermo. They can go just about anywhere you can. If you want to lose them, go under something. Just remember, the likely options for that are tunnels and parking garages. All of these are easy to surround with ground units and the helicopter can easily maneuver to keep visual on all exits. Remember also that most of these have cameras that make recordings.

QUOTE

How do they decide who to tail if the suspects split up?

The driver generally.

If they're looking for a specific person in the vehicle, they'll follow that person if they can. Say from an armed robbery and they know the gunman is the passenger- then they track him. Otherwise, they follow the driver. You always have charges on the driver after a pursuit, and often the passengers are just witnesses. Of course the helicpoter can keep track of multiple suspects moving away from a car in multiple directions at the same time (if the pilot and spotter are good).

Don't forget that in SR, they're probably going to have a few auxiliary drones backing the chopper up. Send the chopper after the driver, and the drones after the passengers.

QUOTE

Crusher Bob wrote:
Note that, in the US, police helicopters are not allowed to be armed.

Not entirely true. I am not aware of any law to that effect. Most police departments (as a matter of policy) do not arm their helicopters.

Some do. I've heard (from fairly reliable sources) of at least one department (enforcing drug smuggling in a rural area) that trained a SWAT sniper to work from a mount on the helicopter.

QUOTE

annachie wrote:
IRL police helicoptors tend to back off real quick when they take incomming fire. Saw that for myself in Sydney one night. Of course, actually hitting a helicoptor would be bloody difficult.

Probably true. Or more accuratly, they'll back off some, go for a high altitude, long distance view position and use the zoom lense with the IR to keep track of you.

And remember, firing at someone (including the helicopter) gives the ground-cops a green light to open up on you. And they will.

QUOTE

How would the heli's thermal gear cope with a floating flare or three?

I'm not positive, but I expect it would make things difficult for a moment, maybe even overwhelm to IR for a moment (probalby not though and even if it did, they'd still be able to relocate you after the flair went out).

QUOTE

grendal wrote:
Foot pursuit isn't fast enough to warrant a helicopter overhead unless it's moving through dense woods or terrain difficult for pursuers to traverse.

Not at all true. IR defeats dense woods and it's difficult for officers on foot and in cars to keep track of a suspect in an urban foot chase (too many places to hide, very dangerous). On the other hand it is very, very easy for the ghetto-bird to flip on the IR and follow the guy, directing the ground units to move in slowely and safely until they can grab the guy with overwhelming numbers. In fact, the helicopter is probably more useful in foot chases than in car chases.

QUOTE

Gyro wrote:
Now, if I'm ever being pursued by a police helicopter....

If you're smart you'll pull over and just assume the position on the ground prone and wait for arrest. Anything else is likely to result in significan discomfort on your part.

Posted by: Cedric Aug 22 2003, 01:26 AM

QUOTE

How high do they fly when tailing?
What do they do during a really long pursuit and they start running out of fuel?
What do they do when entering restricted airspace? Does the old "just drive to the airport" trick really work, or is that just movie nonsense? Are there other ways to relatively reliably lose a helicopter?
How do they decide who to tail if the suspects split up (like if one of them bails out of the vehicle and the vehicle drives away)?

How high? 500-1000ft. By FAA regulations, unless coming in for a landing, they have to fly at least 500ft above man made objects and 1000ft above man made objects in populated areas. Their are exceptions to this for police business and emergency medical personnel, but those exceptions are only rarely employed.

Running out of fuel? Most of those helicopters can get 400 miles on a tank of gas at least. They refuel when approaching a half-tank of gas and car chases almost never last for that many miles. If they were in danger of running out of fuel necessary to continue the chase, they could make arrangements for another helicopter to pickup pursuit.

Entering restricted airspace...works sort of. Yes, the helicopter has to break off or obtain special permission and clearance to continue pursuit (which it won't get unless it was chasing someone like Osama Bin Laden), but mostly it's unnecessary. State and County officials keep offices near airports and heliports so there will be sufficient ground coverage to stop and apprehend any criminals making a run for the airport.

Other ways to reliably lose a helicopter? Honestly, it's just friggin hard. Parking garages are the best way...if you can leave behind the car you are using. Otherwise, you can basically forget about it. Your best odds come from areas of forest with a thick overhead, very thick fog if weather permits and areas with a lot of coverage from high line wires.

If the suspects split up...well, multiple car chases are rare. And early into a car chase the police will usually designate a threat rating to vehicles. Ultimately the lead car is usually the one that is followed by the helicopter though. The police cars are going to be closer to the rear car and better able to pursue it. The helicopter sticks with the lead car because it's harder for ground pursuit to catch and because it generally has whoever is in charge of the crime in it.

Most important to the "plan" though, is the old military axiom, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Police helicopter pilots are usually very skilled and excellent at adapting to a dangerous, changing situation.

Cedric

Posted by: Alystin Aug 22 2003, 01:53 AM

QUOTE

Running out of fuel? Most of those helicopters can get 400 miles on a tank of gas at least.

Today yes. But in the SR universe no. Aircraft and Boats/Ships have a pathetic range in comparison to today. The Wasp/Yellowjacket are particularly bad having a total range of 62.5km(appx 38 miles).

Posted by: Cedric Aug 22 2003, 01:58 AM

*nods* He asked about real-life...so I stuck to real-life. For Shadowrun...some of the flying vehicles they list just have stupid fuel capacities...useless.

Posted by: Squire Aug 22 2003, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (Cedric)

Standard altitude is probably around 400 to 500 feet (by my visual estimation), certainly not as high as 1000.

The sometimes they fly a hell of a lot lower then that while looking for suspects, especially in areas with a lot of low, but dense building (like low-rent apartment complexes). I've seen them circle maybe 20 or 30 feet above the tops of three-story buildings, but that was only once (incidently, the time I saw that we weren't really looking for anyone important, just a shoplifter or something really minor, so I really doubt they obtained any kind of special permission- of course that's not to say they weren't breaking the rule, 'cause I don't know the rules).

Usually (in areas of residential single-family homes) they circle just barely low enough to make out the landing skids clearly.

Of course if they're looking over a larger area, they'll circle higher up. And naturally operations change significantly when they're working in the downtown area with skyscrapers or areas with other tall buildings.

One night I watched them take the chopper into a narrow gulch and actually disappear below the ground (which was flat except for the gulch). I think they were training since I was on duty and didn't hear anything on the radio, and since they kept lowering the bird into the gulch, then lifting out, but not really circling.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 22 2003, 04:01 PM

Not related to car chases, but the parts you want to worry about in sea rescues are when you suddenly realise the waves are higher than the rotors.

Posted by: grendel Aug 22 2003, 06:00 PM

For maritime rescues, helicopters must maintain between 80 to 100 ft above the water since hovering lower will cause the rotor wash to push any survivors/rescue swimmers beneath the water. Also, at lower altitudes the engines will begin to ingest the salt spray lifted by the rotor wash which decreases the power available to the helicopter. Possibly to a disastrous degree. Wave heights that might threaten a hovering helicopter are generally coupled with other, worse weather. The greatest danger to rescue helicopters at sea is in their proximity to other vessels while attempting to effect a rescue. Getting a rescue hoist line caught in a ship's rigging is a sure recipe for disaster.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 22 2003, 06:14 PM

And it can happen so very easily.

QUOTE

Wave heights that might threaten a hovering helicopter are generally coupled with other, worse weather.

By way of comparison, the so-called "perfect storm" of 1991 had sustained wave heights of 11 metres (36 feet). That's higher than a three storey building - and some of the waves would have been much higher. IIRC the highest wave ever recorded was not during a storm but as a result of glacier calving - it hit 38 metres (125 feet) but was confined to the bay.

Posted by: Zazen Aug 22 2003, 08:15 PM

Great info guys, so here's more questions!

How audible is a helicopter flying at 500 feet? I've heard of fancy tail-rotor systems that make them really quiet, but how quiet? Could you be chased by a helicopter flying at 500 feet and not notice?

Posted by: Lordmalachdrim Aug 23 2003, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

It's easy not to notic a helipocter flying at 500 feet. Heck one passed over head of me while I was driving on the Highway the other day and the only reason I noticed is I saw the shadow as it passed overhead. It was early in the day and not much traffic, so I looked around and spotted it. It was prettly low (I could clearly make out the State Police markings on the bottem and such).

Posted by: starsoda Aug 23 2003, 06:49 AM

If you're talking military, I was an AH-64 Apache mechanic and the only time you could hear them was engine run-up or shut-down, or during fancy menuvers (rolling, etc.).

Posted by: hobgoblin Aug 23 2003, 11:04 AM

i live in an area thats used as a airtraffic route for stuff like medical helicopters so i get a nice feel of how easy or not they are to spot and they have to be allmost on top of you or the wind have to be inyour direction for you to hear them most of the time...

as for armoed helicopters, probably not in B-C or better zones but in Z (barrens) its free game as this place is equal to a 24/7 riot, cops only show up there in near military style. allso remeber teargas and watercannons (last one not realy practical from a helo tho), perfect for when you want to stop someone in his tracks but not risk killing people around. just dump a canister or two on his head and watch him slow down good rememeber that there is a ongoing interest in nonlethal stuff these days for police work...

Posted by: Hot Wheels Aug 23 2003, 06:07 PM

I don't know about armed Police copters but I've seen Coast Guard copters with pintel mounted mg's. That's in 2003. 60 years from now with riggers and all the rest, they'll probably more like Roy Scheiders copter in Blue Thunder, complete with a chin mounted minigun.

Posted by: Squire Aug 23 2003, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Zazen)

How audible is a helicopter flying at 500 feet? I've heard of fancy tail-rotor systems that make them really quiet, but how quiet? Could you be chased by a helicopter flying at 500 feet and not notice?

DPD's bird is fairly noisy. If you're standing on the sidewalk and it's circling, you are going to know it's there. But then Denver is too cheap to go in for any fancy systems that might make the bird quiet.

On the other hand, if you're in a car and they're trying not to be noticed, I think it would be pretty easy for them to stay hidden. Fly at an angle that can't be seen from the windows, and high enough that the rotor noise won't be heard over the noise of the car engine and use the IR or the zoom lense for tracking. It would be very easy.

Incidently, I tend to agree with Hot Wheels that SR police choppers would probably be armed, to at least some degree. Also, they would probably have better systems than the DPD does. While we're talking SR, don't forget the spotter drones, some of which are built for stealth.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 23 2003, 09:25 PM

A while back I saw an article about the specs of the "New and Improved" Commanche helicopter design. I remember it having a large array of stealth options including ways to avoid IR detection, radar, and I think a way to minimize the engine noise. I have been unable to find the information online, but maybe someone can find the relevant numbers.

Posted by: Daishi Aug 24 2003, 02:19 AM

Before the local airshow a couple weeks back, I would watch from my backyard as planes and choppers fly over head on approach. Older birds that were obviously two bladed were noisey as all hell. The newer 5 bladed choppers that I could identify, I only noticed because I was in the backyard and it was otherwise quiet.

For canon rules, I believe the perception target number is the chopper's sig, modified by distance, other noises and distractions. I'm infering this from the comment in rigger3 about smart materials adding +1 to the sig of a chopper for listening perception tests.

Posted by: grendel Aug 25 2003, 08:52 PM

Out in an open field, still air, you can hear a chopper coming from a ways away, probably close to four or five miles. Maybe more if you have exceptional hearing. In an urban or forested environment, though, the ambient noise combined with the reverberation and redirection of the helicopter's noise can allow it to sneak up on you quickly. Also, you may not be able to determine the direction of approach until its very close, within a mile.

Given a proper masking structure, a helicopter moving at 120 kts can be on top of you almost before you know it.

Five bladed systems are inherently more quiet than four or two bladed systems, and certain rotorhead bearing designs can reduce noise as well. Most rotors feature blade tips that are swept between fifty and seventy degrees. This is for noise attenuation as well.

As for the Comanche, the helicopter has five blades with swept tip caps and a fan in fan style tail rotor. Both of which are designed to reduce noise signature. Exhaust from its engines is funneled through passive IR suppressors, basically a large number of vents along the extended tail boom. This reduces their heat signature to within about thirty to forty percent of ambient air temperature. The Comanche's skin is composite RAM and sculpted with an eye for stealth.

Posted by: Ed_209a Aug 25 2003, 10:56 PM

I think Seattle's Lonestar security forces would rely almost entirely on drones. Drones for surveilance, drone s for pursuit, drone gunships if needed.

Posted by: Kurukami Aug 26 2003, 04:51 AM

QUOTE (booklord)

For that matter, one could probably have the helicopter be a drone-carrier -- have a co-pilot who rigs a trio of airborne security drones dispatched from a drone rack, and work it collaboratively to corner and nail a runner's vehicle.