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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ German Sourcebooks

Posted by: Joker Aug 20 2003, 09:51 AM

So FanPro are now publishing translations of the German RPG Dark Eye in English. Is there any chance that us English speaking folks will get a chance to see some of these wonderful looking German Shadowrun sourcebooks translated? Since Fanpro has started doing this should they do it with Shadowrun? I think so, there is a lot of nice stuff there that we can't use.

Posted by: Darth Phylos Aug 20 2003, 10:33 AM

I'd like to see some of the German stuff myself...

Posted by: MrSandman666 Aug 20 2003, 10:40 AM

Especially 'Deutschland in den Schatten ('Germany in the Shadows') would be worth it. It is the most comprehensive sourcebook I've ever seen. Wouldn't I be busy enough with my Seattle campaigns and if I had more money on my hands I'd get it right away. However, right now the Sprawl Survival Guide has absolute top-priority!

Posted by: Turtle Aug 20 2003, 10:41 AM

Ugh...they sell translations of DSA? Gods...if you want to play fantasy, better use d20 for that

Otherwise, I thought the Germany sourcebook was translated and sold back then...I don't see a reason why they shouldn't do that for the new one, too

Posted by: Synner Aug 20 2003, 10:42 AM

You will probably see more Dark Eye releases depending on how well the RPG sells over in America. The biggest problem it faces is the overbearing dominance of D20 and its spawn.

On the subject of German SR books, I think people need some clarification about what is actually out there. In terms of the roleplay FanPro D mostly releases translated versions of FASA and now FanPro US sourcebooks; what it does is add German-specific material to most of them and sometimes retitles them. The changes go from additional artwork and a handful of vehicles in "Rigger 3" to a German Matrix chapter in the "Matrix" but that is it.

Additionally FanPro D averages one original German language sourcebook a year (its actually skipped a release last year IIRC). There have only been about 5 or 6 such original releases EVER including "DidS" (which was translated to English as the "Germany" sb), "Chrome&Dioxin" and "WS&I" (sorry about the spelling) both location books for Germany (one includes Austria and the other Switzerland) and "DidS2" (the updated Germany SB) - these latter three are used to some extent as the basis of material in the forthcoming "Shadows of Europe" (note however that DidS2 alone I'm told clocks in at 300+ pages and "SoE" will be "SoNA"-sized at best). There have also been a couple of adventure packs in the past but that is ALL they have ever released German-only.

This year FanPro has done a full campaign book ("Brainscan" and "SotF" style) rather than a sourcebook for its German language release in the form of "Shockwaves" and although it has tie-ins to "SoE" and even "SSG" there are no plans to translate it simply because a lot of the background to the plot was never published in American sourcebooks. However it may still be addressed or referenced in future FanPro D books.

The other thing FanPro D does is release a lot of German language novels but that is beyond the scope of your post.

Posted by: DigitalMage Aug 20 2003, 10:42 AM

The original Germany Sourcebook apparently didn't sell well at all and therefore it would be unlikely that FanPro would translate more German focused books.

Posted by: Darth Phylos Aug 20 2003, 10:55 AM

How about marketing them as *Web Enhancements* on the SR Website? Maybe after they go OOP, if that will help...

Posted by: Synner Aug 20 2003, 10:57 AM

DigitalMage is correct. While "London" and "TNO" have long been sold out you can still find "Germany" in stock in many stores and distributors. The reason for this is pretty obvious, the main target audience for the German-oriented material are unsurprisingly Germans and they're buying their stuff in German anyway.

There are other inherent problems with some of the background created by the original FanPro D crew which make some parts of the German metaplot and developments incompatible or at least at odds with FASA and FanPro US canon. These however are slowly being ironed out with increased cooperation on both sides and the last few books should be completely compatible.

Posted by: Synner Aug 20 2003, 11:05 AM

QUOTE (Darth Phylos @ Aug 20 2003, 10:55 AM)

How about marketing them as *Web Enhancements* on the SR Website? Maybe after they go OOP, if that will help...

What do you mean? Putting the German language books up in German on the website?

If you're going to the effort of translating them you might as well publish them; however there doesn't seem to be much point to that since the material in those books - with the exception of "Shockwaves" - will be partially covered in "SoE".

Specially when taking into account there isn't that much apparent market for material on the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest, the Elven Duchy of Pomorya and the German Catholic Church-run state of Westephalia, the feuding principalities of Mariendbad in the first place (going by the weak demand for the "Germany" sb).

Posted by: Darth Phylos Aug 20 2003, 11:08 AM

Putting them up in English - it was only an idea...

Posted by: Toa Aug 20 2003, 02:44 PM

I don't think FanPro D would appreciate that. They've always been pretty bitchy about copyrights.

On the other hand I don't think you even want or could use the information given in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". As Synner stated above, it's over 300 pages. And even I as a German find most of the content rather boring. Way too much detail, almost every small village described, and the writing is pretty "dry". Shadowtalk mostly consists of locales of state A mocking about locales of state B and vice versa.

(Another reason is that I'm afraid people might make fun of us because of the Smurfs in the AGS.)

Posted by: Birdy Aug 21 2003, 08:53 AM

QUOTE (Toa)

I don't think FanPro D would appreciate that. They've always been pretty bitchy about copyrights.

On the other hand I don't think you even want or could use the information given in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". As Synner stated above, it's over 300 pages. And even I as a German find most of the content rather boring. Way too much detail, almost every small village described, and the writing is pretty "dry". Shadowtalk mostly consists of locales of state A mocking about locales of state B and vice versa.

(Another reason is that I'm afraid people might make fun of us because of the Smurfs in the AGS.)

I'll disagree in some parts. As I stated before the "Us too" problem of FanPro resulted in Germany being a cheap copy of the USA. And while DidS2 is too long in certain parts, it lacks in others, leaving out a lot of nice scenario hooks either due to the "infamous" Duesseldorf arrogance (There's no germany outside D-Dorf) or due to lack of research. In general I recommend against the german sourcebooks unless you need basic ideas on city layouts (Within limits!)

What they simply forgot is the whole religious conflict stuff in Westfalia, they never realised the dimensions of the "underground network" under the Ruhr valley, problems with the rather concentrated non-german minorities...

Birdy

Posted by: kylleran Aug 21 2003, 09:04 AM

As of now I can tell you that there are plans to try and provide at least English language synopses of German language release products. Starting with Shockwaves. These will not be reprints or translations of the original products, however. The other caveat to this is that all of this depends on time. There are a lot of other things that are planned for the website so this one may get pushed back. But if people bug me about it I can try to get it up there.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Aug 21 2003, 09:07 AM

Looks like you have some experience with the Germany Sourcebook. I always got the expression that it's somewhat grittier and dirtyer, more "Cyberpunk" than New Seattle. Is that true? New Seattle is almost too nice and clean for me. Of course, there are the Barrens but that's not quite enough. I was going for something dirtier.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 21 2003, 02:45 PM

I always got it was like the twenty pages of tourist sites in the Tir na nOg book.

Posted by: Eismann Aug 22 2003, 01:18 AM

Hi...

QUOTE ("Birdy")

Duesseldorf arrogance? Do we talk about the same book?
Duesseldorf got one and a half pages, Westphalen ten.
It might sound strange to you, but most of the german freelancers are not from Duesseldorf and I never feeled "Duesseldorf arrogance" while I was there... are you from Cologne or something?

Ciao,

Eismann

Posted by: Birdy Aug 22 2003, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Eismann)

Hi...

QUOTE ("Birdy")

Nope. I don't take this on the number of pages (or the authors themselfs), more on the (in mine eyes) lack of research done on most elements of the Ruhrgebiet and Westfalia (I believe people from other parts of germany can comment on their areas). Errors that lead to FanPro leaving (IMHO) out a lot of potential adventure hooks and metaplots.

Add the general dislike I have for idea of turning Germany into a bad clone of the US (Splintering germany, civil war, elf kingdom) instead of turning it into something of it's own and you get a person massively biased against DidS.

Some material (basic city ideas, corp info, general mapping, some cult places) is usefull. But as a whole, I found both books not to my liking.

And well, it's a duty of every Westfalian to despice Düsseldorf. Just because, well, it's ähm.... Düsseldorf!

)

Birdy

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Aug 22 2003, 03:08 PM

Ya crazy Germans. Over here in America, we don't have weird regional divides.
'cept for all those folks over in West Virginia...they're just a bunch weirdos.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Aug 22 2003, 03:18 PM

What was that story about New Jersey? (I noticed this when visiting Pensylvania.) Also, I believe California in general is not exactly taken seriously by everyone outside of California...

Posted by: Birdy Aug 22 2003, 03:20 PM

QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate)

Ya crazy Germans. Over here in America, we don't have weird regional divides.
'cept for all those folks over in West Virginia...they're just a bunch weirdos.

Neither have we. See, it's quite simple:

When it goes against Düsseldorf, we are all Northrhein-Westfalians
When it goes against Bavaria, we are non-Bavarians
When it goes against the "new" states we are all West-Germans.

In all other cases, the next town is a potential hostile foreign country.

Birdy

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 22 2003, 03:34 PM

In California, you have to understand that there are no "Native Californians." Mot people born their move away, and most people living there moved in from somewhere else. Mainly because of the commune culture to the north, Mexico to the SOuth, and Hollywood/LA somewhere in the middle.

Posted by: Cochise Aug 22 2003, 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Birdy)

In all other cases, the next town is a potential hostile foreign country.

... and all its inhabitants do more or less speak a different language *opposed to one spoken in the home town, which is the sole correct "German"* which is a crime by itself ...

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 22 2003, 06:50 PM

And there we have much of why the Germany sourcebook would have to be grittier than New Seattle.

Compared to the Eurowars, the NAN split was neat and relatively bloodless. The existing rivalries are already long established and have only been intensified. The cities and settlements are older, and the pollution has been around much longer. (The Rhine is already a sewer in many places. What's the percentage of nearly raw sewage to water at its mouth: almost 1:3?) There's been how many nuclear disasters in the proximate area? And that's even without bringing in the proximity of Africa and the Middle East, the Turkish question, the Balkans, relations with France and Russia, and the continued Desert Wars. Edit: and I'll second Conchise's note on regional language - it's far too differentiated to be called dialects, and several of them are making determined regional comebacks. (Linguistic differences also played a crucial role in ED isolationism/xenophobia.)

In contrast, Seattle is an oasis - a clean oasis. And it's surrounded by political regions and high-powered entities which take their natural environment seriously.

Posted by: Birdy Aug 25 2003, 01:26 PM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

Actually, you can swim in the Rheine today without any dangers. At least in the Cologne-Düsseldorf-Duisburg area. (It's only prohibited due to current and ship traffic)

Same for air pollution. This is considerably down since the 1960's due to the relatively strict european pollution laws. The death of the east block helped a lot for rivers like the Elbe.

The description of most nuclear disasters is, as stated, a yoke. Btw. Cattenom lies at the Mosel (has it's own dam there)

As for languages, the current (age 40 and younger) generation of germans actually speak the same (Hannoveranian/Prussian) dialect as the basic language. Local dialects are mostly dying out [even in Westfalia!]

We have good relations with France for more than fifty years now (You did watch TV during the last year?) and actually had those with Russia even during the cold war. (They still feel "close" to us germans)

The Balkans are some 1000km and two countries (Austria, Italy) away. Again, one of the three major powers (Serbia) likes us and Kroatia never was an enemy either.

Still I agree that Europe should be darker. Some hints why:

The European Community is rather small but has the same population as the USA

European nations (Brits are IIRC an exception) have far stricter laws on transient registration. And the people are used to it

The european nations integrate far closer than most assume, exspecially when it comes to crime fighting

Internal security is handled by centralised organisations that can involve themselfs whenever they deem it necessary (FBI's a whimp compared to that)

European states have central police and criminal police organisations and "Central law break local law"

Europe will never bow to the big business the same way the US did. Remember that european weapon laws are far stricter than US. No "Shiawase against..." here.

This is old europe. We do thinks in a civilised manner. No "exteritorrial corps". Not here monsieur. Instead it's bribes, interest organisations, networks and good ole blackmail.

Personally, I find the idea of a state that is out to:

+ Protect me from all harm and all potential criminals
+ Actually does give benefits to the average citizen
+ Protect the environment at all costs
+ Considers "camera observation" a method of public security
+ Even today issues more evasdropping permissions than the US
+ Is centralised and uses "one big database"

far worse than the "dozends of battling megas" approach that was used in the end. In the UCAS it takes cunning rats. In the concrete and steel world of a centralised United Europe it takes rats of stainless steel.

Birdy

Posted by: Synner Aug 25 2003, 01:30 PM

Boy oh boy are you in for a surprise Birdy.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 25 2003, 01:47 PM

Ever get the impression that the exact same place is actually two different countries? But since I find distinctions such as "old Europe" and "new Europe" utterly meaningless in the context in which they had been raised, I'll just touch on one note, and I'll avoid the employment and racial question completely:

QUOTE

The Balkans are some 1000km and two countries (Austria, Italy) away.

So's the rest of the UCAS from Seattle - more so. And the interlying spaces are far less populated, Australia-style. No longer a common language though from coast to coast: which (before the Shadowrun universe) used to be something of a unifying factor.

Posted by: Synner Aug 25 2003, 02:30 PM

Talia - What Birdy in his own quirky way is referring to is something most people don't always take into account. Europe is divided by far more than borders and politics. It is divided by history and nationalism. Despite the hype the media all over the world (including here) made of the Balkans situation in the late 90's it barely affected Europe and what effects it did have were not obvious political and economic ones (apart from doubling the stream of refugees and illegal immigrants from the region).

Posted by: Birdy Aug 25 2003, 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Aug 25 2003, 01:47 PM)

QUOTE

The Balkans are some 1000km and two countries (Austria, Italy) away.

Question:

What racial questions? Where did I raise racial questions?

If you refer to the various non-white / non continental-european minorities IRL, well they would have made for a nice bit of adventure hooks

As for the distance - I was refering to that as a buffer from crisis and problems. There never was a common language with Austria (they do speak a different dialekt!) or Italie (last I heard they still speak one of those funy romanian languages instead of a prober germanic one

) Still, there are two resonably strong nations to shield germany from many of the balcan troubles.

Is for the same place -> two different countries, I live in that best place on earth. (Germany that is!) Have collegues and neighbours from the former UdSSR. Was/are a regular visitor to Kroatia.
Birdy

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 25 2003, 02:52 PM

Edit:

QUOTE

What racial questions? Where did I raise racial questions?

Actually I was suggesting that you were not raising them, and that although I saw them as relevant to the question I was not going to raise them either. Obviously I did so poorly.

I did catch the history and nationalism thing, Synner - one reason why I wasn't bringing into it either ius sanguinis or some of the recent incidents involving apartment buildings housing primarily Turks, three generations born in Germany but never German. (And for that matter Algerians/Turks in Paris, and Pakistanis/Indians in Britain.) Those kinds of topics can get very heated, very quickly: not least because in most cases they are not "just" history but very much family history - the past very much alive in the present and continually shaping the future. Nor are individual (if not truly isolated) incidents typical of all who live in a given area - but as I have argued before in the context of magicians in the Shadowrun world, a relatively small percentage of people can have a disproportionate influence on their social environment.

So I chose to address the different sense of space and population density as well as mono/multilingualism instead. I thought that might prove a bit less inflamatory. (Btw I'm hoping you and yours weren't personally harmed by the forest fires or heat wave, Synner and Birdy ...?)

Posted by: Birdy Aug 25 2003, 03:07 PM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

Edit:

QUOTE

What racial questions? Where did I raise racial questions?

Thanks the question, none harmed here except for sweating a lot. Btw, you from the US or Europe? (Sounds like American in Europe IMHO)

Birdy

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 25 2003, 03:59 PM

Never heard that guess before! Technically neither (and should probably mention that English isn't my first language), although I usually do have a few euros and USDs kicking around the place.

Posted by: Synner Aug 25 2003, 04:05 PM

Thanks for asking Talia. No one I know was affected although the damage from the fires has been pretty severe (just what our flagging economy needed right now, another kick in the balls) but they didn't come near the bigger population centers. About a third of the green areas in the country burned down though. It's pretty awful especially since it looks like arson in many places. Whatsmore a lot of pine areas were burned up and with the changing climate they'll probably grow back as eucalyptus and other nasty plant life.