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Posted by: Seidaku Dec 24 2003, 03:38 AM

Well, as my first and only character has recently crossed over to the other side, I've decided to play a decidedly different sort. My first character was a heavy-cyber minotaur, with a modified body of 17. My new character is a shaman with a body of 4. Well, at least, that's the current plan. However, based on just a few simple tests, it seems unlikely that the new character will be able to survive if an enemy is *ever* given the chance to shoot at him. I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if I roll ALL successes, I could only stage the damage down by two levels. Given that my armor is not as 'uber' as my previous character's, rolling all successes isn't very likely, either.)

Clearly, I cannot be the only person ever to have a character with a body score of less than the absolute maximum possible. Surely those who have done so before have survived (at least for a little while), and I'm interested in knowing how.

I understand that combat is supposed to be lethal; that is part of the thrill, after all. But I cannot fathom how it is even possible for low-body characters to go on runs, given that a single shot is apt to inflict deadly damage.

I also understand that, often times, when shots start flying, the run is already a failure. Sadly, as my group is composed mostly of newbies, we have many 'failures' according to that definition.

So, any suggestions? Could anyone relate previous experiences they've had?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Dec 24 2003, 03:42 AM

Don't charge into combat. Get cover and do what you do best: magic. If you want to be tougher in a fight, armor (the spell), maybe a barrier (also a spell), and a custom treat spell that is self only.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 24 2003, 03:45 AM

I will now slap you until you beg for mercy and admit that 4 body is not "low body".

~J

Edit: for the question at hand: combat pool. Suddenly you're throwing 8 dice.
Oh yes. That and NOT BEING THE MEAT SHIELD. That's what you have characters like your old one for.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 24 2003, 03:49 AM

Agreed. If you're playing something with low body, maybe you shouldn't be sitting in the middle of the firefight. Low body characters are either melee or distance (snipers/magic). Don't try to merge a low body character into something a Troll demon would be.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 24 2003, 03:51 AM

I don't recall ever playing a character with a Body over 6. 4 is the norm for my magically-active characters, and I don't seem to have too much in the way of problems keeping him alive. Just keep in mind that he is not a combat-oriented character and you should be alright.

Posted by: Seidaku Dec 24 2003, 03:51 AM

Posted by: Fortune Dec 24 2003, 03:53 AM

So don't have the character look like a mage.

Posted by: Artemis Dec 24 2003, 03:56 AM

Exactly.

The troll is what magicians commonly refer to as “The Wall”. Mages take partial cover behind them, cover their own bodies with a safe load of armor and chuck spells from back there while giving the troll spell defense.

4 is pretty high for a mage I'd say. For an effective one at least. Typically my mages average about 2 to 3 or so. Sustain an increased Body spell and some other additives once you've built up enough karma... and you're in good shape.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 24 2003, 03:56 AM

Exactly. Give him a gun. Get Masking as quickly as possible. Even give him a few pieces of 'ware and gaesa them off.

Posted by: D.Generate Dec 24 2003, 03:58 AM

Herald is right. Seeing most most long lived character was a mage I have a little insite on this.

Here are the rules:

1. You are not a troll you don't stop bullets, stay the hell out of fire lanes and close combat.

2. Magic is your best friend, use spells lile fashion and make over to infiltrate areas with guards. Be creative.

3. Learn masking and quiken metamagic, boost body and initiative with proper spells and quiken and mask them.

4. Take a more supportive roll in combat, bullet barriers and area effect illusion spells.

Un fortunately my rule number 5 won't work for you since you are to be a shaman but I'll list it here anyways.

5. Do not look like a mage, strap on a sword carry an smg, works better if you can actually use the weapons significantly well. Remeber magic in the 6th world don't have to be ellaborate,crazy chanting and arm movements all you have to do is think and it works. Shamans however work a little different its not that they have to dance and act a fool, they choose to. Its like thier belief system so to speak.


Hope that helps some, most importantly be smart don't act like a tank because you are not one.

Posted by: D.Generate Dec 24 2003, 04:00 AM

Damn see most of my rules weer covered in the time I took to type that. Oh well just think of that as a quick and easy refresher course list.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 24 2003, 04:01 AM

Actually, Shamans don't have to "act a fool," and they don't always choose to. The dead giveaway with a Shaman is the Shamanic Mask. Any time they cast a spell, they look like their totem, moreso for a higher force than a lower force.

Posted by: Seidaku Dec 24 2003, 04:01 AM

Posted by: Tanka Dec 24 2003, 04:02 AM

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Dec 24 2003, 04:05 AM

I started and up until VERY recently had 2, and now have 3 Body.

I stay BEHIND the Sam!
I just bought some new armor, over which I can slap a force 6 armor spell.
I can also slap that armor on the Sam.
I stay BEHIND the Sam!
My reflexes suck (for now), and my body sucks (cause I'm small!) sooooo
I stay BEHIND the Sam!
My Sam, being terribly clever, has himself a little homemade skill called Bodyguard.
It's a pretty simple skill, you can "give" your rating in dice from your own combat pool to anyone within 10 feet of you to assist in their protection.
Being that I'm small, light and slow, I stay very close to him at all time, because he's easily strong enough to manhandle me like a sack of potatoes, he's a gbjillion times faster than I am and has better hearing and sight so he'll see trouble before I do. Gives me an extra 3 dice (his rating in BG) to dodge behind cover (him).

That's how I stay alive.

Kong

Posted by: Seidaku Dec 24 2003, 04:06 AM

Posted by: Fortune Dec 24 2003, 04:06 AM

Posted by: The Jake Dec 24 2003, 04:17 AM

Avoid combat where you can.

When it cannot be avoided, use spells that either provide armor, shielding and/or ways to avoid detection in the first place (depends on your totem I guess).

Make use of cover and terrain, lighting, etc. Look for ways to make it as difficult for him to hit you as possible. Try to create distractions. Remember if you switch to astral perception you won't suffer from vision penalties like he will and you can still smack him with a sleep spell or powerbolt a lot easier than he can hit you with an SMG.

- J.

Posted by: toturi Dec 24 2003, 05:16 AM

Imp. Invisibility. No see, no shoot, no hit, no need to soak/dodge. Haveaniceday.

Posted by: Cain Dec 24 2003, 05:37 AM

Simple answer: Don't get hit!

Dodge everything you can. Stay behind cover. Let the combat-monsters draw enemy fire. Use your magic defensively (illusions, Barriers) and reserve it for the things only magic can do.

The good thing about going last is, everyone else has acted and shot at the bigger threats.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 24 2003, 06:09 AM

I second the 'be invisible' argument. There is a little trick that's commonly used which is that you can cast it at force 1 into a force 1 sustaining focus. The 'trick' is that you can get so many successes that they would need an intelligence of 7+ to see through the spell.

OK: There's still a chance of being hit by stray bullets. Levitating above your target can lower that though.

Finally: the Trauma Dampener is your friend. Not only does it make it less likely that you will die from a single deadly wound (impossible unless you're using the rules for deadly-over damage) but it makes drain easier meaning you can chuck more dice at casting or conjuring.

Posted by: Seidaku Dec 24 2003, 06:14 AM

Posted by: toturi Dec 24 2003, 06:21 AM

Shouldn't that be casting the invis at as high a force as possible? Your TN is 4, not force of spell but the target's resistance is against your spell's force.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 24 2003, 06:22 AM

Posted by: Lilt Dec 24 2003, 06:25 AM

Posted by: Glyph Dec 24 2003, 06:29 AM

Several people have already brought up Combat Pool. Note that as a mage, with a high Intelligence and Willpower, you probably have a decent Combat Pool. Note that if you don't use Combat Pool for your shotgun, you will have lots and lots of it to use for dodging. Also remember that sometimes it is easier to dodge (with a TN of usually around 4) than it is to soak for the heavier stuff - in fact, it is only better to use Combat Pool to soak if you know your armor will make your TN lower than 4 (if someone attacks you with a light pistol, for instance, you will generally wind up with a TN of 2 to soak, making that the better choice).

Posted by: toturi Dec 24 2003, 06:36 AM

I can't remember where I read it but isn't there something that says you can't have more successes than your force? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted by: Lilt Dec 24 2003, 06:57 AM

Posted by: The Jopp Dec 24 2003, 09:46 AM

Eh? Body 4 is LOW ? My STREETSAM has a NATURAL body of 3. Ok, so she has Dermal Sheet+Bonelacing to gain a total of 8D6+combat pool.

Now, that body is just enough to soak D damage, add combat pool on that (+3D6) and she should do just fine. Her job is of course not to get hit in the first place.

*Grumble*

Low body...Bah...

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Dec 24 2003, 11:38 AM

Another vote for Sustained ImpInvis.

The sorcerer in my group is a veteran of ~8 big firefights (at least a platoon of baddies, machineguns going full auto all over the place, grenades flying this way and that), and she only got hit once, in the last game when she decided to take care of the flank alone and got herself in a doorway with 3 secguards around her. Result: Moderate wound from a 3-round burst of blind fire through the door (she was actually kneeling in the doorway, keeping it half-open, so she was easy to spot).

And everything else people have been saying works too. Don't hang around in the middle of the firestorm, don't get spotted, keep the TNs the hit you as high as possible, wear armor, keep Combat Pool available for Dodging and/or soaking.

Posted by: Siege Dec 24 2003, 01:29 PM

Posted by: Cain Dec 25 2003, 06:38 AM

The problem with ImpInvis is that you're completely visible on the Astral, and you're going to be shouting: "Geek me, I'm a mage!" to any Awakened opposition. Dual natured paracritters, spirits, and anyone with astral perception will be targeting you first. If you're going to be sustaining a spell, Increase Body or Combat Sense will allow you to keep your edge even against awakened opponents.

For a very long time, I was running a mage with Body 2. She got out of trouble by not getting shot at (arranging stealth runs so firefights never happened), using cover, being sneaky, and using magic defensively. Spirits make great distractions, barrier spells have a world of uses, and playing it smart is the best way of surviving.

Posted by: toturi Dec 25 2003, 07:06 AM

But since you are a mage, you should be able to take down any Awakened opposition you come across. That is your job. And since he's visible and you are not, he'll get himself geeked by your team sam. Or dont your team work as a team?

Posted by: OurTeam Dec 25 2003, 08:47 AM

Just to add to all the good advice already given...

"Drop Prone" is a Free Action, and can save your life. You can use it at any point during a Phase when you act, or at the end of any Phase when someone else has acted. Use it carefully, as it requires a Willpower(Force) test to keep sustaining a spell when you drop prone, and because getting back up ("Change Position") is a Simple Action (and requires a Willpower test if you are wounded).

Use "Delay Action" if it is too dangerous to do something on your regular Initiative Count. You can delay your last action of the Combat Turn till the very end of the last Initiative Pass without losing any actions.

Carry a Light Pistol. Nobody ever shoots at the guy with the light pistol.

Posted by: L.D Dec 25 2003, 10:35 AM

Posted by: Tiralee Dec 25 2003, 10:54 AM

Posted by: snowRaven Dec 25 2003, 12:56 PM

You could also go the path where you use the spells Increase Body, Increase Reflexes, Armor, Deflect, and Combat Sense (with sustaining foci and later quickened) and alternante your attacks between combat spells, guns, and elemental manipulations...

Later you also add Increase Quickness, Increase Willpower and Increase Intelligence, and you'll end up with a combat pool out of this world (around 16, with 4-5 extra dice for dodging is far from impossible). Granted, you fill the same role as a street sam and loose out on some of the finer points in magic...

Posted by: Siege Dec 25 2003, 01:29 PM

Well, hell, just carry a cyberdeck.

Nobody ever wastes ammo on the decker in real time.

-Siege

Posted by: Rattler Dec 25 2003, 02:41 PM

Posted by: toturi Dec 25 2003, 03:25 PM

Sometimes, the whole objective of the run is to start one. There would be no need for a street sam if you never get into a firefight.

Posted by: Tanka Dec 25 2003, 03:31 PM

Posted by: Kesh Dec 25 2003, 06:06 PM

My favorites have always been Raccoon and Raven shamans for characters that aren't combat oriented. Manipulation spells are your friend... barriers, levitation, elemental effects, mind control.

And, of course, Wolf for combat shamans.

But, yes. If you're a low-body shaman, stick to a support role. Let the big guns go first (and guard the rear), you provide them with buffs and cover magic.

Protect yourself with some form of magical armor. The Armor spell (or the old 'Personal Bullet Barrier', in 2e) can help tremendously. Also, regular armor can be very good. I always layered an Armor Vest w/ Plates (4/3) with a Secure Longcoat (4/2), to get decent protection (6/4). Though you need a good Quickness score, if you want to keep your Combat Pool up.

Also, the longcoat was great for concealing the mage's/shaman's best friend: the shotgun. Usually, I'm packing a light pistol for backup, and either a Remington Roomsweeper or a full-bore shotgun for primary. Otherwise, a decent SMG can replace the shotgun, giving you a bit more control over what you're hitting.

One thing to consider, as people mentioned, is appearance. The longcoat is good, as pretty much anybody could be wearing it. Just don't adorn it with tribal symbols, bits of fur & feather, or ancient runes.

In addition, if you're not too hung up on Essence/Magic, sneaking a bit of cyber in can be a good way to confuse opponents. Obvious cybereyes, a datajack or a Smartlink 'induction pad' will make it less likely the opponents try to 'geek the mage' until it's too late (not to mention the combat advantages).

One silly option I used was the shapeshift spell. Turn yourself into a mouse and hide in someone's pocket.

re: Idol 'masks'

These aren't terribly different from shamanic masks. Just take the Idol and imagine its idealized form. The Adversary could be a coal-black form with firey eyes, or an angelic looking figure shining brightly (the Light-Bringer). Someone with a Norse-based Idol might take a mask of a bearded, weather worn Viking, etc.

Posted by: Cain Dec 25 2003, 06:33 PM

Yeah, I forgot to mention sidearms. A shotgun or a big fragoff pistol like a warhawk are great for mages. They're good for everyone, but shotguns are especially good for those without smartlinks. They cause lots of damage, they can fire a spread, and if you're really proficient you can double as a gun bunny.

You may not be the big takedown machine, but a BF shotgun loaded with shot makes for one hell of a supressive-fire weapon. You don't even need combat pool on the attack, so you can save it for dodging.

Seidaku's probably used to the reverse, where he could spend all his combat pool on the attack, and rely on his high body to absorb most damage. Trolls are nice that way. It's the same principle, here-- you use magic and other attacks that don't require a lot of combat pool, and save it to defend.

Posted by: Spookymonster Dec 25 2003, 07:26 PM

There's no rule that says you have to start slinging your heaviest spells the second combat breaks out. First things first: get to cover. Break out a mirror or compact so you can keep an eye on the fight without getting your head blown off. Let the gunbunnies exchange a little lead with their friends for a while. It makes them so happy.

Next, help out the sammies with a little defense - Spell Defense, that is. There's nothing obvious about Spell Defense (or Dispelling, for that matter), so you're still maintaining a low profile. Any mage/shaman can do this, regardless of what's in their spellbook.

Bullet shields are good. Elemental secondary effects can help create a 'fog of war' situation. Consider Smoke Cloud or Acid Wave at Force 1(D). Careful, though, since they may reveal your hiding spot.

Wait a phase or two, especially if your sammies aren't getting beat down too much. Let the enemy team's mage reveal himself first. If you don't catch any incoming magic by then, you're probably safe switching from offense to defense.

Q: What's better than an enemy firing blindly in your direction?
A: An enemy firing blindly in his teammate's direction.

Physical Mask a random enemy to look like a sterotypical shaman.

Phantasm a team of combat mages behind your enemies, so they have to divy up their firepower. Don't forget the special effects (blue sparks coming off their force-33 Barrier, maniacal laughter barking forth from your phantom Shark shaman's lips, etc.). A sustaining focus works just as well with these illusions as it does with Invisibility.

Magic Finger/Levitate grenades out of bandaleros. Whip the thermovision goggles off their heads. Pull their precious long coats over their heads.

Just 'cuz you're a mage doesn't mean you've got to make a target of yourself by whippin' out the lightning bolts all the time.

As for keeping out-of-sight, most nature spirits have the Concealment ability. AFAIK, this can help keep you hidden on both the mundane and astral planes.

Astral Chameleon Edge (+2 TN to anyone trying to assense you) helps keep you hidden from snooping mages. You can get it at chargen, and it works great with Masking once you become an Initiate.

Posted by: Spookymonster Dec 25 2003, 07:30 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 25 2003, 07:31 PM

Posted by: Zazen Dec 25 2003, 08:49 PM

Posted by: Cain Dec 26 2003, 01:46 AM

But it also doesn't broadcast you as a mage, not the way an invisibility spell does. And it can cover a whole team at once.

Posted by: Spookymonster Dec 26 2003, 01:46 AM

Duly noted.

Posted by: toturi Dec 26 2003, 03:09 AM

Posted by: Spookymonster Dec 26 2003, 04:00 AM

Ye gods.... you're correct! Damn... this calls for a rethinking on a few of my chars. It's still useful (especially if you're casting mostly Force-1 spells or your GM is anal about leaving clues behind), but not really a bargain at 2 Edge points.
Thanks for ruinin' my day, Toturi... hope you can live with yourself...

Posted by: toturi Dec 26 2003, 04:42 AM

Your Edge-fu is weak.

Posted by: thunderchild Dec 26 2003, 04:57 AM

Physical Mask yourself as a Decker.
a small, weedy decker who is clutching his deck and crying for his mommy.

Posted by: Siege Dec 26 2003, 03:08 PM

Bullet shield? I thought that was the Troll?

The other reason why you want to keep your team protected from magical inbound -- teamwork gives the enemy more people to shoot at.

-Siege

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 20 2004, 11:00 AM

Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 20 2004, 12:49 PM

Looking like a decker is good, until someone notes that you are awakened ("dude, the decker just threw a fireball at us, geek him!")
Being invisible is VASTLY overrated, you heard me, invisibility SUCKS!

Why?

Picture a firefight when all of a sudden one of the enemies go POOF! and disappear, what do you do? Suppressive fire a area of 6 meters, starting from that point, shooting 1 bullet at the meter farthest to the left and right (2 bullets), 2 bullets to the meters next to those (4 bullets, 6 in total) and then you fire the rest of your bullets on the two meters remaining (3 on the one the mage didn't disappear on, 4 on the one he did)
now, the mage will probably bleed, or scream, or both.....

And guess what? the sammy shooting has a TN of 4, and only 4 (base 4, +2 for suppressive, -2 for Smartlink, no range mods since he has electronic vision mag lots)

can we say "PWNAGE"?
besides, i've houseruled the invisibility spells to "max success=force", that makes the game more fun and possible, no "i'm using a force 1 invisibility spell and not even god can see me!" mages in my games!

yes, i dislike magic, you noticed?

Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 20 2004, 12:51 PM

excuse me while i shoot myself in the head
i meant to say that the two meters in the middle of your field are shot with 2 bullets each......

Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2004, 01:14 PM

unless you're using a (fairly common) houserule, vision mag of any type doesn't work with smartlinks of any type. and keep in mind that cover mods also apply--if you're the mage, you should be grabbing as much cover as you can, since cover doesn't affect your spellcasting (except elemental manips).

Posted by: toturi Jan 20 2004, 01:31 PM

Posted by: Spookymonster Jan 20 2004, 01:58 PM

Your training will be complete when you can snatch the pebble from Toturi's palm....

Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 20 2004, 03:48 PM

Yay, Kesh! Never mind magic: even non-magical armour is a Good Thing. So are environmental cover and high ground - very high ground - er, semi-angle-concealed-rooftops.

(One of my PCs currently has BD 6. I'm still amazed at how much damage he + longcoat + layered ultravest can absorb. It's the first time I ever slipped over BD 4, and only the second time I slipped over 2.)

Posted by: Arelius Jan 20 2004, 04:55 PM

Just do not ever get shot.

Posted by: LoseAsDirected Jan 20 2004, 05:06 PM

Don't forget to add a full suit of form fitting body armor.. It may be be a good idea to wear it around the streets, but it's perfect when on a run.. It even has a hood to prevent security cameras from getting a good look at your face.

By my rules, when layering armor, you can have 2 layers plus FFBA.. And half points, if any exist from the current layering, can be added to other half points for extra whole points..

Secure Long Coat (4/2) plus
Secure Ultra-Vest (+2/+1.5) plus
Full Suit FFBA (+2/+.5) equals
(8/4)..

Now, you'll get a huge penalty to any Quickness related tests, and lose a fair amount of combat pool dice.. But your survival rate improves dramatically.

Posted by: Rev Jan 20 2004, 06:33 PM

Re: Shamanic masks.

If you actually look up the rules for noticing the shamanic mask it isn't that easy to do. I don't remember the forumula exactly, but it yielded pretty high target numbers.

The only time people will usually see it is when casting high force spells with a totemic bonus.

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 20 2004, 06:37 PM

Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 20 2004, 09:54 PM

isn't invisibility a vision modifier? those aren't calculated when using suppressive fire, only cover (invisibility is NOT cover), damage on self and +2.....
so, i was wrong, the TN is 6, nothing else.....
invisibility= visibility mod=not calculated for suppressive=i'm right

or?

Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 20 2004, 09:55 PM

recoil isn't calculated either
i read out aloud....
"Apply modifiers only for the attackers wounds, the targets cover (If any) and a +2 for suppressive fire. The attacker may also not use his combat pool
me= right
pebble=snatched
training=done!
weee!

Posted by: Solstice Jan 20 2004, 11:44 PM

Yessshhh.......very well then. I have read this entire topic. Now for a real question.

What if your character is not a mage, or a decker, or a rigger, but a techie type?

This is my first character and I'm running into some problems already on the very first run. She only has body 3 and athletics 3. Form fit body suit 4/camo suit 3 so layered ballistic of a 7 total. I'm not sure how layered works exactly.

So as we all know, Murphy's Law prevades every aspect of life even RPGs. So we know that sooner or later bullets will fly no matter how pro we are.

We stepped out of a doorway and an elevator door happened to open up in front of us. Well, several guards just wasted us at short range with assualt rifles. 6 successes. That seems like alot for your average military grunt but I did not say anything to the GM.

So how can I possibly beat 6 successess? I had nothing from my dodge pool (zero successess). So I of course have to roll my body (3) and use combat pool. I can't remember how much combat pool I used but I think it was all 8d6 or close. I still only got 6 successess which is pretty decent considering the # of dice involved. But alas I was not able to stage it down and I took a moderate wound. Had I got hit at the end of the turn after my combat pool was gone. I would have been dead no matter what. There seems to be some inequality among the combat system.
Statistically I have like zero change to survive any kind of non stun attack.

Posted by: Rev Jan 21 2004, 12:08 AM

I think the problem is that you cannot be a real pure techie type, or stealth type, or face type charachter in a fairly heavy combat game.

If the group is you, and a bunch of idiots who want to fight everything they see you are going to die pretty quickly.

If the gm feels the need to constantly "challenge" the fighter types by pitting them against thier near equals in combat you are going to die quickly.

Basically unless the group as a whole can, usually, avoid combat alltogether you must do something to get yourself through it and that means upping your combat stats some.

I typically make stealthy, techy, facey charachters so I have learned this lesson the long hard way. In the end you will have more fun if you just go with the flow and make a charachter more combat oriented when that is what the game demands.


Edit: and as has been mentioned in this thread you should not be using combat pool for anything except dodging and resisting damage, and your first actions should be to hide (preferably full cover) and only in unusual circumstances should you try to shoot anything. Also the gm should probably be doing some sort of suprise roll in those circumstances, and your sam's should beat security guards and take a few of them down while encouraging the survivors to shoot the sam's rather than you.

Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 12:11 AM

Posted by: Teulisch Jan 21 2004, 12:39 AM

Form fitting bosy armor (full suit) can accept up to 5 points of modification. Either Non-conductive (to stop tasers and stun batons) or chemical seal (to stop spray weapons, splash gernades, and capsule rounds) could greatly improve your protection. And according to errata, the FFBA does not give you any layering pernalties. So layer it with something else, and put the other type of mod on the top layer of armor.
anybody know if the dwarf/troll cost increase is before or after armor mods?

Personaly, i like quickness 9 (base 6 +3 from muscle toner), since that increases how much armor i can effectively have, as well as reaction and running speed. FFBA, Camo suit, and a balistic shield can get me an armor of 10/4, no penalties (and non-conductive 5, chemical seal 6, fire resist 2 as well). (an unaugmented elf could do the same with a large riot shield, getting 9/6 with a quickness of 7. other race 8/5 w/ small shield) weapons of power 10- are easy to soak with a TN of 2.

The best defense, i think, is not to look like a shadowrunner. The industrious line coveralls are rather nice. Carries a kit, which means a bulge in the pocket is normal and ignored, if the parts of the kit you can see are there. hide in plain sight.

For invisibility- Ultrasound vision (or goggles). i can 'hear' you, so unless your silent as well i have no vision mod and will know you an invisible mage. quick fix may be to carry a white noise generator(high frequency).

Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 12:52 AM

range still counts, for suppressive fire, because range isn't a modifier--it's the base TN. however, like the man said, vis mag will cure what ails you.

suppressive fire rules are in CC, in the Advanced Combat section.

ultrasound vision is not effective against invisibility for the same reason thermo isn't--invisibility affects the mind, not the eyes.

Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 01:09 AM

Thanks, mfb. Oh... hahaha... those rules...hahaha... First the guy dodging has got to FAIL his dodge test first! HAHAHA! Combat pool against TN 4 (only 1 bullet/m, he was only in 1m area), no successes?

Only if he fails do you have a chance of hitting him, if he succeeds, you don't even roll! HAHAHA! And I thought someone had finally thought of a good way to hit an invisible man.

Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 01:15 AM

er... well, you can allocate more than one bullet per meter. and he still takes vision mods to his dodge attempt.

Posted by: Zazen Jan 21 2004, 01:16 AM

Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 01:31 AM

Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 02:10 AM

i don't see why a dodge test wouldn't take vision mods. if you can't see who's shooting at you, how would you know when and where to dodge?

Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 02:23 AM

OK, let me put it this way, I don't think it is in the Canon rules to include vision mods in Dodge test. The examples in the books certainly do not.

Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 02:31 AM

i'll look at it when i get off work. regardless, there are still times when suppressive fire works very well--for instance, five guys suppressing the same area. at the very least, suppression eats up combat pool.

Posted by: Panzergeist Jan 21 2004, 03:41 AM

Don't get shot. The best way to do this is to not get shot at, though being protected does help. It's that simple. Here are a few specifics.

Use cover.
Wear armor, but not enough to penalize you.
Stealth skill and stealth spells.
Have a good combat pool. Since combat pool is based primarily on mental attributes, you don't have to be a physical combat character to have a lot of it.
Don't dress like a D&D wizard. Don't cast visible spells in full view of the enemy. In short, don't let them know you are the mage if they can easily shoot you.
Armor, Increase Body, Barrier, Bullet Barrier, Deflection, any spell that protets you.
Illusion spells can make you harder to hit.
Don't be in front. If there is a chance of being ambushed from the rear, don't be in back either.
Use goggles and stuff to detect enemies. Plan your attack with your team.

And as for ultrasound goggles and invisibility, here is a blinding flash of the obvious for you guys. As it says in the book, invisibility affects the mind, improved invisibility affects light itself. Therefore only regular invisibility works againts ultrasound. Since the user perceives ultrasound visually, rather than as sound, it should be susceptible to invisibility.

Posted by: Solstice Jan 21 2004, 04:09 AM

"Don't get shot".

pfft..you guys must play a totally different game or something.

How bout some suggestions that are NOT obvious for once.

Gotta love:
"Wear armor"
"hide behind something"
"use your combat pool"

oh really? Captain Obvious to the rescue! Save us from the little known!!

Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 21 2004, 04:32 AM

@ Solstice:
I think they're just trying to cover all the bases. And it really doesn't get much more common denominator than "Try to avoid situations where you can get shot". Pretty sound advice for SR or RL, IMO.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 04:42 AM

Posted by: Teulisch Jan 21 2004, 04:42 AM

on the ultrasound vision issue:
Add in a spatial recognizer and high frequency hearing, and you have -3 TN to locate something by sound, ie ultrasound. Make a map with that ultrasound, a gps, and an orientation system, and you now have a -4 TN, or no penalty to geek the mage. a rating 8+ white noise generator is needed to render augmented ultrasound worse than thermo.

M&M makes no distinction between grades of invisibility- simply states both mana and physical silence spells will prevent ultrasound from 'seeing' the mage, and leave no blnk spot. Sight-effecting spells dont affect ultrasound without a sound component as well.

Only downside to the '+1 or no penalty in pitch black' is that you are emitting sound. and annoying the hellhounds. turning it off when not needed would increase ones lifespan. (how do protective covers work with ultrasound vision?)

Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 21 2004, 04:55 AM

Posted by: Zazen Jan 21 2004, 05:29 AM

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 21 2004, 05:39 AM

Posted by: Solstice Jan 21 2004, 05:48 AM

My team consists of a physad with little man syndrome and a large sword power foci 5, and a rather dense street sam wanna be weapons specialist who only thinks about eating.

Needless to say I have many gaps to fill and I can already tell in this first run that I'm not going to live very long. They have no way to avoid combat even if they wanted to. They just don't have the skills to get things done without capping someone. It's rather frustrating because it makes SR seem like a one dimensional game. Like if your not combat oriented you die. Like AD&D with guns and really, really annoying dice system.

So right now we are scaling the skeleton of a hydroelectric dam with crates of BTLs strapped to our backs, trying to get into Tsimshian. That is stupid yes, but not related to the points I'm talking about. I'm just really frustrated cause I can tell there is no way I can live through the run.

I haven't been playing long and I can already see a huge problem with the game. You really can't satisfy everyone since your either in combat (joy for the sams) or your infiltrating or decking or astrally projecting (joy for me, boring for all others), and no character can really participate fully in both, nor can we work as a team like would happen in the land of butterflies and flowers. they would bungle the most basic B&E and I would endanger everyone if they had to protect me in combat.
Really SR leads to splitting up the group moreso than I'm used to. Really with such a skill descrepency how can you not?

Give me some redeeming qualities here. I mean I love the game but I'm not going to play if I have to make a combat character to simply survive. I've never played a cookie cutter meat grinder and I never will. That is the ultimate non-challenge and boring.

Maybe it's the way my GM is. Everything seems very very hard and you have like zero chance of doing anything sucessfully unless you have like 5 or 6 dice to roll for it. That leads to polarized characters who specialize in one thing and that widens the discrepency.

Posted by: BitBasher Jan 21 2004, 05:57 AM

The problem is you made characters that do not work well together in a team and it sounds like you have a GM that caters twards certain tendencies, and noncombat soloutions aren't them.

If the GM decides that combat is what things tend towards then that's the way the game is going to go. There is nothing you can really do about that. It sounds like everyone but you tended towards combat characters, and then yes, you will be left out because you went against the grain of the party. The ability to make that work lies solely in the hands of your GM. It's possible, but it sounds unlikely.

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 21 2004, 08:04 AM

Posted by: LoseAsDirected Jan 21 2004, 01:10 PM

Posted by: Siege Jan 21 2004, 07:00 PM

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 21 2004, 07:10 PM

I run NPCs as people who react to what they perceive as the biggest threat. Rarely will they start shooting unarmed or lightly armed people while a Troll with a gun is 15 feet away, unless they get an indication that spells are being cast and a magician has suddenly become their biggest threat. Usually by then the tech weenie has started to look for a place to hide.

Posted by: Solstice Jan 21 2004, 07:55 PM

Ok fragger scan this:

I AM A "TECHIE". Ok? I am a technical specialist. Ok?

I am not a "tech weenie". Ok?

You want some weenie muchacho I give you some weenie.................main.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 21 2004, 09:20 PM

Tell that to the Troll

~J

Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 21 2004, 09:21 PM