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Posted by: Tyro Mar 18 2009, 08:53 PM

What are some of the best loadouts for a street sam, either at character creation or later? I've been playing around with different augs, and I was wondering what other people like to use.

The character I'm building right now is ambidextrous, with two modular obvious forearms and cyberware gyromounts (and spare synthetic forearms for times when he wants to blend in).

I'm especially interested in different strategies for avoiding damage penalties: trauma dampeners, adrenal pumps, damage compensators, blood circuit control systems, platelet factories, and pain editors.

My GM allows upgrading cyberware for the difference in cost, but only within grade (i.e. rating 1 standard can be upgraded to rating 2 standard for the difference, but you have to rip it out if you want rating 2 alpha).

Posted by: Artemis Mar 19 2009, 09:03 AM

it really depends, you seem to be going for the old gunslinger type sam but there are the builds for the tank sam, close quarters sam, bio sam ansd so on also race should be taking into consideration either way get your IPs up

Posted by: Degausser Mar 19 2009, 09:20 AM

In general:

Getting additional IPs is key, so either Wired Reflexes or (if you have the scratch) Synaptic Boosters. Other then that . . . Muscle Toner is nice for some extra agility (good for both firearms and range), and a Reflex recorder for whatever your poison happens to be. Lastly, something to help you soak damage, like Dermal Plating, Orthoskin, bone lacing, whatever. Other than that, whatever floats your boat. Smartlink eye mods are generally the norm, but some prefer the cheaper option of smartlinked goggles.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Mar 19 2009, 09:43 AM

Not taking damage is usually better than only avoiding damage modfiers, so go for the Trauma Dampener and Platelet Factories. (The latter now only helps with Physical damage, per SR4A)

Generally, Bioware is the way to go for boosts as it's non-detectable and more essence-friendly... of course, it's more expensive. Orthoskin is especially nice, even on level 1, as it allows you to get the upgrades.

For senses, cyberware still is the route to go - get alphaware or better and cluster them, then put SensorSofts and a TacSoft on the cluster.

Posted by: KCKitsune Mar 19 2009, 10:41 AM

I think hands down Move-by-Wire is the BEST bang for your buck. Sure it's expensive money wise and Essence wise, but NO augmentation equals it really. Level 2 MBW gives you +4 to Reaction, +2 to Dodge, AND gives you SkillWires at rating 4. All this for only 85,000 and half you Essence... small price for the speed.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 19 2009, 02:02 PM

I love Orthoskin, but is quite expensive in terms of nuyen costs.

Move-by-Wire is tops in performance, but it makes you think outside the box for ways to get around subtly. Not that it can't be done, but it's certainly not as easy as it would be for Synaptic Boosters.

BTW, a 'Cyber Mask' Physical Illusion spell that just hides augmentations from sensors (limited - doesn't hide from normal vison, touch, etc.) would be a nice trick for a friendly magician to have. It'll be tougher in SR4A with te OR 6, but it's still worth looking into.

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 02:12 PM

It's also worth noting that Move-by-Wire stacks with Reaction Enhancers, which the other "good" IP booster, Synaptic Booster, does not. So a street samurai with 20 BP in Reaction can reach his augmented max with Rating 2 Move-by-Wire and Rating 2 Reaction Enhancers.

So - +6 REA, +2 Dodge, +2 IP, and Skillwires 4 for 105,000 Nuyen and 3.6 essence loss (cyberware)

The best you can get without Move-by-Wire is this: Wired Reflexes 2, Skill Wires 4, Reaction Enhancers 3, and Reflex Recorder (Dodge). All this, and you are still missing out on 1 REA and 1 Dodge, yet the cost is 80,000, only 25,000 less than the above build, and 4.8 Essence, which is over an entire essence more that the Move-by-Wire build. Also, you are using a Reflex Recorder here to attempt to recreate the boost to dodge - while you can still put that on top of the Move-by-Wire for an additional dodge.

The only real downside to Move-by-Wire (besides the inherent downside to all Cyberware) is that you can't get above rating 1 during character creation without the Restricted Gear positive quality (which at 5 BP, is totally worth it).

Once you have this, I would get Muscle Toner 4 (Another use of Restricted Gear positive quality) and Reflex Recorder in the ranged weapon of your choice. (BF and FA are the best options if you're going to rock super-agility) That's another .9 Essence (bioware) and 42,000 Nuyen.

Some people will suggest Suprathyroid Gland, but for the cost (essence and nuyen) it isn't worth it for Strength you won't use (unless you care to melee with anything but shock weapons) and the Reaction that doesn't stack. Instead if you have the money left, I'd get Bone Density Augmentation rating 4, and use my final allowance of Restricted Gear to get Pain Editor. This is 1.4 Essence (bioware)

So far we're up to 4.75 total essence loss, and 267,000 Nuyen. With Born Rich, you'll be able to probably afford a decent gun, with upgrades, and an Armored Jacket with Full Form Fitting Body Armor, along with commlink and enhanced goggles. Put 40 BP in Agility, 20 in Reaction, 40 in Body, 40 in Willpower, 40 in Intuition, and 20 in Strength. Dump left-over BP into Dodge Automatics, and Edge.

All said and done (as a human) you'll have BOD 5 (9 for DV tests) AGI 9, REA 9, STR 3, CHA 1, INT 5, LOG 1, WIL 5 (6 with Pain Editor) Edge 2+ and Armor 14/10
(With 5 ranks in Dodge, and Spec Ranged, that's 19 dice to Full Dodge Ranged, or 25 for melee. If you do get hit, you roll 23/19 Physical Res. and 20/16 Stun Res. with the inability to go unconscious from stun. Also, with 5 Dice in Automatics and a specialization, plus Reflex Recorder and Smartlink, you're rolling 19 dice to hit with ranged.)

Congrats, you have a Uncouth, Stupid, Soul-less unstoppable combat machine for 400 BP. Good luck with legwork and RPing.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 19 2009, 02:52 PM

Pick your target and then go through all the cyber/bio that will get you there. Overall, here are my lists which will include some very expensive and longterm options.

Main Sam
Trauma Dampener & Platelet Factories (It adds up)
IP Booster (best you can get, MBW or Synaptic Boosters)
Suprathyroid Gland (+1 to *ALL* Physical Stats! That includes body)
Muscle Toner (Better Shoot/Stab/Punch/Bash/Sneak/etc)
Reflex Recorder (with your main combat skill/skill group)
Reflex Recorder (Dodge or Gymnastics/Athletics skill group)
Attention Coprocessor -or- Reception Enhancer (+ Perception rolls)

Shooter Sam
Implanted Smartgun
Muscle Toner 4
Genetic Optimization: Agility

A Human, Ork or Elf can get Agility 12 (Human & Ork need Exceptional Agility) which makes you a natural with every Agility skill (Default of 11!).

Melee/Tank Sam
Muscle Augmentation (Melee, optional STR-Recoil rules; Helps Climb/Run/etc)
Bone Density Augmentation or Bone Lacing (Better soak -&- Melee Damage)
Orthoskin -or- Dermal Sheath (Soak -&- Armor)

Sensor Sam
Attention Coprocessor -&- Reception Enhancer (++ Perception rolls baby!)
Ultrasound Sensor -&- Radar Sensor (Invisa'what? See through smoke, darkness, cover, walls!)
Orientation System
Olfactory Booster (Track by smell, chemical analyst, etc)
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors (Social boost -&- Perception bonus)
Taste Booster
Cybereyes 4 -&- Cyberears 4 (Maxed out baby!)
SensorSofts (They roll -&- you roll)
TacSoft (Yea, it is just evil)

Special Skills List
Genetic Optimization: Reflexes (Better Dodge/Drive, Faster Attacks)
Sleep Regulator ("Time... is on my... side" Think about how sleeping far less can be useful)
Extended Volume (More endurance for extended physical activity)
Synthacardium (helps with all that running and jumping and tumbling)
Cyberhand w/ Nanohive, Bio-monitor, Auto-Injector - 6 dose, reusable (You wanna be hard to kill?)
- Nanos: Nanosymbiotes (R: 3), Trauma Control System (R: 6), O-Cells (R: 9), Universal Nantidotes (R: 9)
- Drugs: Antidote (R: 6), Stimulant (R: 6), Trama

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 19 2009, 03:01 PM

I disagree with you here, since the Suprathyroid Gland is not an Inititive booster (so adds to Reaction), increases Agility (better shooty/stabby) -&- increases Body (wear more armor, have more physical damage track) in addition to that Strength gain you knocked.

Strength does help with running and climbing, as well as possiblly carry and recoil comp. Maybe most GMs don't do it, but someone in my game with a Strength of two, wearing crazy armor and lugging crazy weapons around get slapped with crazy penalties.

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 03:10 PM

An initiative booster is anything that boosts your initiative. Reaction Enhancers, Wired Reflexes, Move-by-Wire System, Suprathyroid Gland, Synaptic Boosters are all initiative boosters. Reaction enhancers are compatible with Move-by-Wire and Wired Reflexes, but not with anything else. Niether Suprathyroid Gland or Synaptic Boosters are compatible with anything else.

Also, armor in 2072 is incredibly light and flexible, all the way up to military grade. And weapons are made out of super-light alloys etc etc. While you might not be able to run around doing backflips and dual-wielding assault cannons, a strength of 3 can easily wield an automatic weapon.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 19 2009, 03:46 PM

don't implant ANYTHING that you can get by using external stuff if you wanna be the swiss army officer kinda guy.
have different needs each run? good, don't replace ware, replace gear, wear only whart you need, if it's not too expansive get rid of it after run and be unconspicious. Also, saves on money/essence too.
MBW and some computer skills and warez network will net you many skills fast and cheap too, once in game, if you know how to . .

Posted by: Tyro Mar 19 2009, 04:56 PM

It's been debated back and forth whether Reaction boosters count as Initiative boosters. It's my opinion that they do not; Reaction Enhancers should be compatible with IP boosters, but IP boosters should not be compatible with each other. You can put a reflex recorder on top of a rating 2 MBW, but not a rating 3; as per errata, a recorder boosts skill rating, not dice pool, and so is subject to the 1/2 skill cap. It also means cyber-adepts don't benefit if they're maxing Improved Ability. ActiveSofts were made MUCH more expensive in SR4A (10k/rating point), so Skillwires are significantly less useful now. They're still viable if you can get cracked copies of activesofts, though.

MbW is awesome, no doubt about it, but synaptic boosters 3 + reaction enhancers 3 is MUCH less detectable by scanners (and you twitch less, by fluff).

Posted by: WeaverMount Mar 19 2009, 05:44 PM

Some guild lines for optimization
1) don't cyber if you don't have to. A datajack is pointless by RAW. If you can get all the vision mods you need into contacts and your gun scope don't get eyes, similarly never get ears or an implanted com-link.

2) Get 3 IPs. 4 IPs will break your back at chargen. If you can get away with 2 great, think about drugs.

3) Stim patches in an auto injetor in your hand is the best way to avoid wound penalties.

---

But more important than all of that is doing something you will have fun with

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 19 2009, 06:19 PM

So we (along with lots of others) completely disagree on what a initiative booster is. His game uses they are compatable, can we drop it and focus on the original question?


Again an item totally open to the GM. If you want to talk it over, PM or new thread please.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 19 2009, 06:54 PM

can someone real quick post me the stats of the reaction enhancers?
i thought they only upped your reaction attribute, not your ini passes?
i would personally rule that nothing that gives ini passes is compatible with anything else that gives inipasses, only the highest bonus applies(only drugs would stack directly, and those only up to the usual maximum of 4)
i(and it seems many others) would rule everything that ups reaction attribute to directly stack with each other, to only apply highest bonus at worst.

Posted by: WeaverMount Mar 19 2009, 07:03 PM

It is just reaction. The real question is what the RAW means when it says initiative enhancers: initiative (pass) enhancers, or initiative (score) enhancers.

Posted by: BlueMax Mar 19 2009, 07:06 PM

This thread has me enthralled.

Thank you for posting the stuff for sensor sammies. My Sunday group has one and I am sure he has a wish list of sorts now.

Tyro, I had no idea MBW twitched. This may be old version poisoning but I thought MBW was uncannily smooth.

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:11 PM

(Delete this please)

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:11 PM

"Reaction Enhancers: By replacing part of the spinal column with
superconducting material, a character's reaction time can be increased.
Add the rating of reaction enhancers to a character's Reaction attribute
(this will also affect Initiative). Reaction enhancers are incompatible
with most other Initiative-boosters." - Page 342 SR4A

This explains that Reaction Enhancers are, in fact, initiative boosters. They boost your reaction, and by extension, your initiative.


"Thanks to monofilament ballistic fabrics, spiderweave threads, ceramictitanium
composite plates, and liquid armor packs to cover non-rigid
areas, modern armor is lightweight, flexible, and concealable. The following
armor items offer tremendous damage resistance without slowing
the wearer down or drawing too much attention." - Page 326, SR4A

And that one.

I agree that ultimately everything is up to the GM. But these explanations and rules were placed in the rulebook for a reason, and for clarifications such as these.

EDIT - Sorry for the double post, I got all confused, and apparently you can't delete posts.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 19 2009, 07:14 PM

does intelligence indirectly raise initiative score or something too?
if so, is encephalon and the +1/+2 int bioware incompatible now too?
it is the same as iff you raise your reaction attribute with karma. it's not direkt initiative, it's indirect, they are and allways have been, compatible with everything else.
kinda like intelligence and quickness made your combat pool go up in SR3 . .

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:15 PM

According to Arsenal, your MBW gives you small twitches in your muscles. You don't actually twitch visibly, but you have minor spasms in your muscles (Much like in real life when you are suffering from a deficiency in potassium).

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:17 PM

Encephalon boosts effective Logic for technical skill tests. It doesn't boost your Intuition which in turn would raise your initiative. Off-hand, I know of nothing that boosts your Intuition and thus nothing besides Reaction-ware to count as Initiative Boosters.

Posted by: ElFenrir Mar 19 2009, 07:22 PM

My current sam is a mix of close-combat and firearms(more of a weapons specialist, to be honest), but uses this loadout(keep in mind we do not have Availability limits at the start):

Muscle Augmentation 3
Muscle Toner 3
Suprathyroid Gland
Synthacardium 2
Titanium Bone Lacing
Wired Reflexes 2
Smartlink Eye Modification


That's it. It makes him fast, strong, tough, gives him his smartlink. It's a good thing he has money, as he needs the licenses(though he's ex military, and could get the licenses a bit easier and a bit more believably.)

But yes, different loadouts for different sams. A firearms specialist I would just ditch most of the Muscle Aug and pump more Toner in there, lower the Bone Lacing a bit(though titanium's Ballistic bonus is nice, I'd probably run ceramic or aluminum, most likely the former), more eye mods, another level of Synthacardium(extra Athletics/Dodging), etc. This guy more or less is close combat, though I could have fit Orthoskin in there possibly, with a bit of fumbling around with the other ware(though with a modified 6 body, he can wear plenty of armor-his current close in armor is a total of 14/11.)

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 19 2009, 07:27 PM

There are Nanite and Genetic mods that add dice to any pool using Intuition. Guess since initiative has Intuition in it, they add dice to Initiative rolls. Also I suggested using a Suprathyroid Gland, not Reaction Enhancers.

Please, we have side tracked this thread enough. If you wish to continue on trying to convince me of something you never will, take it to PM or create a new thread.

Posted by: BlueMax Mar 19 2009, 07:30 PM

Right, like aerodynamically unstable planes. A series or forces are exerted in all directions and the opposing force is let go for fast reaction.

I just never thought that these motions would be on the visible level.

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:33 PM

Initiative is a derived score from your Intuition and Reaction attributes. Things like Suprathyroid Gland, Reaction Enhancers, Synaptic Booster, etc. increase the attribute of Reaction, therefore they boost your initiative. The modifications you speak don't actually modify your Intuition attribute, therefore wouldn't effect your initiative score.

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 07:35 PM

I don't think that they are, unless you're looking very close. But I think HOW visible they are is up to your GM really.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 19 2009, 07:38 PM

nope, they are not.
fluff has it that everybody with MBW is obviously using them for the single reason that they DO NOT twitch around like wired reflexes, but are smooth criminals. *snickers* ^^

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 19 2009, 07:41 PM

You should check out the 800BP thread in the Community Projects side of the Forum. I got a http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23592&view=findpost&p=773169 in there that is just *Scary*.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 19 2009, 08:40 PM

I generally interpret the MBW twitch as a low-grade fine tremor, like someone on Lithium or in low-level withdrawl. Not obvious, hard to notice even if you're looking for it, but definitely there. When I was on Lithium, most people couldn't tell I was shaking, but I sure could - it fouled up my manual dexterity, forcing me to overcorrect on occasion. I'm not saying that's the RAW; I interpret it that way because it matches my roleplaying needs. It would still be less "twitchy" than wired reflexes, but more so than synaptic boosters I should think.

So back to the original question. Let's build a gunbunny with MbW and 2 modular cyber forearms (for switching out when you don't want to be obvious), who goes into combat wearing obvious forearms with cyberarm gyromounts (he's ambidextrous and specializes in SMG's). What else should we put in the forearms? What other cyber/bio should I get?

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 09:27 PM

If you're looking at pumping out SMG spray, then you want agility. I'm assuming you're using customized cyberlimbs. I'd raise the agility to your natural maximum (so initial 3 plus 2-4) increasing the cost and availability slightly, and then pump it all the way up with Agility Enhancements. You can't combine muscle toner with your cyberarms for the purpose of shooting, or anything else really for that matter, but I'd grab Reflex Recorder (Automatics).

I'd look at Dermal Sheath (Much cheaper than Orthoskin), Bone Lacing or Bone Density Augmentation, and Cybereyes (You could always do goggle or a tricked out helmet though) decked out with vision and sensor modifiers (Ultrasound? Radar?).

Posted by: Tyro Mar 19 2009, 09:31 PM

I was using forearms, but that's mostly a holdover from back when I was building cybered adepts now that I think about it. Still, is it worthwhile to use customized limbs instead of muscle toner and partial limbs?

Posted by: Orangexplosion Mar 19 2009, 09:35 PM

Either way, muscle toner won't stack with the partial limbs.

"When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack
with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber);
in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the
task (round down)."

In this case, you're either going to use just the agility on the forearm, or you're going to average your natural agility (plus muscle toner) and your agility-boosted partial limb.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 19 2009, 09:41 PM

I was under the impression that partial limbs didn't contribute to the average, but instead used your non-limb attributes :-/

Does that mean I'm better off with full arms?

I'm also interested in improved senses, but not in things like UWB radar which loudly announce your presence.

Posted by: Rasumichin Mar 20 2009, 02:41 AM

Get full limbs, max out AGI, probably increase STR as far as needed for additional recoil compensation.
Other interesting gadgets would be a nanohive (if you're going down the sensor sam route, get a hold of some Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanites, but get an Attention Coprocessor first), an Autoinjector and cyberlimb armor (which is, however, quite demanding in capacity).

As far as damage reduction is concerned, i think Platelet Factory is the most cost-effective, even though a Blood Circuit Control System is more efficient as far as synergy effects with a trauma damper are concerned- but it is prohibitively expensive Essence-wise, so it may very well not be an option for you.
But i'd get REA as high as possible before that anyway, along with Dodge and/or Acrobatics (Syntharcadium comes in handy here)- better not to get hit in the first place than to soak damage.

Hm, if you use standard grade ware, that wouldn't leave you with much more Essence to spend, but there's some rather nifty geneware around.
Synch, React and Genetic Optimization might be particularly interesting.

That should, along with eyes and ears, provide a good basis for most tasks you'll face.
If you want something more subtle than UWB radar, use ultrasound sensors passively (great for detecting opposing ultraound sensors!) and probably get one of those bioware thermosense organs to detect hidden enemies.

That should be about all you need.

You get a skilled shooter who can avoid getting hit, reacts swiftly and is perceptive as hell, along with the ability to handle a lot of non-combative physical tasks such as running, climbing, jumping and so on (thanks, Syntharcadium!) and who can sneak around a bit, so you'll have all of the basic samurai tasks covered.

Posted by: Zurai Mar 20 2009, 05:14 AM

On the other hand, the Lightning Reflexes positive quality makes a distinction between Reaction Enhancers and Initiative Enhancers:



If all Reaction enhancers are considered Initiative enhancers, then there's some redundancy in that text that would, presumably, not have survived editing.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 05:16 AM

You have a better opinion of the (necessarily, I'll admit) editing process than I do :-/

Posted by: Zurai Mar 20 2009, 05:31 AM

Look at it this way:

A 350-page large hardcover book like SR4 is going to average about 800 words a page, for 280,000 words. Even if the editing is 99.9% accurate, there are going to be 280 mistakes (typos, incorrect page references, etc). If it's 99.99% accurate - which you have to admit is incredible - there are STILL 28 errors.

The fact that there are 28, or even 280, errors doesn't negate that the editing is 99.9(9)% perfect. It's far, far, dramatically far more reasonable to assume that the editing is accurate than otherwise unless there's a blatant error there (the aforementioned typos or incorrect page references).

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 05:33 AM

I'm referring more to ambiguous wording that they haven't gotten around to changing rather than outright mistakes.

Posted by: WeaverMount Mar 20 2009, 06:08 AM

The Encephlon is a real bonus to logic. It's the neo-cordical nanites that are a boost to logic linked skills and don't help with drain. Similarly The limbic nanites wouldn't help with initiative because it isn't an intuition linked skill.

Posted by: Dikotana Mar 20 2009, 09:24 AM

Maybe I'm still hung up on SR2-3, but I more or less picture Move-by-Wire users as twitching or even vibrating noticeably when still because the signals don't balance and muscles are pulling in all directions at once with not-quite-equal force. Only when given a direction to travel does the user suddenly move with preternatural grace and smoothness.

Also MBW should always come with an inevitable risk of major system malfunctions and irreparable brain damage. MBW is state of the art, and it comes with the concomitant risks. Wired reflexes are old hat, but they're reliable.

(Yes, MBW was SotA in the '60s. I play them as still SotA in the '70s. Your campaign may vary.)

Posted by: InfinityzeN Mar 20 2009, 01:29 PM

The Limbic Neural Stimulus Nanties are useful but not worth going all out to get. They only add their bonus during non-stressful times. So they don't help you notice stuff while your getting shot at (like that sneaky guy flanking you) or where exactly that fireball just came in from.

It was in SR3. It is not a Logic increaser in SR4.

Posted by: Zaranthan Mar 20 2009, 02:21 PM

I just go with a hand if I need a cybergyro. 4 capacity is just enough, and there's no question that your natural agility is vastly more important than your metal fingers.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 20 2009, 03:35 PM

It can't work that way if you want to stay as realisitic as possible. The 'signals in all directions' bit is only happening in the neural portion of muscular control. Only the signals that are desired - once the countersignal is filtered - reach the chemical transmission phase that connects neural activity with muscular action. Because of the refractory times of muscle fibers, this is the only way the system could operate and still give faster than human reactions.

Posted by: HappyDaze Mar 20 2009, 03:37 PM

As a GM, I require all cyberlimbs to be customized to the attributes of the user. This includes partial limbs, hands, even cyberskulls. To me, it seems absurd to attach something of inferior capability to your meat.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 04:42 PM

I hadnt' thought of that, but I suppose an argument could be made for doing it. The problem I see is that the weights come out of your wrist, which may or may not be part of the cyberhand.

Posted by: Zaranthan Mar 20 2009, 04:55 PM

Why? I'd rather have a weak, clumsy leg than none at all.


That's one example. I can certainly imagine a counterweight system on the back of your hand.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 05:42 PM

SR4 335: "When activated, counter-weights pop out of the user's wrist and provide her with better balance and reduced recoil for improved firing capability."

I always imagined them spinning around the wrist, for some reason. Anyone else have a take on how it should work?

Posted by: crazyconscript Mar 20 2009, 05:50 PM

I've always had the image of a counterweight system popping out of the wrist, but i see no reason why i cant be housed in the hand and fold backwards or something. Or you could just say that the cyberhand includes the wrist which was always my imagining

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 06:01 PM

Works for me - and makes ambidextrous cyber-adepts even more interesting ^_^

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 20 2009, 06:52 PM

if it were jsut counterweight, it would work without popping out, as the weight does not change, because the weight is attached to the hand no matter what . .
i imagin those things spinning around too, as they are gyroscopic thignies, and gyroscopes work by spinning. and for that price, those gyroscopes had BETTER be spinning ^^

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 06:57 PM

I imagine the weight required for THREE POINTS of recoil comp would make it hard to lift your arm, if it were just weight we were talking about. Besides, you could get that effect by strapping a weight to your wrist, no surgery required.

Posted by: BlueMax Mar 20 2009, 06:59 PM

Gaah

As much as I hate this faux realism creep, I'll participate.

The weight isnt the only factor. Its the angular velocity with with the weights spin that is probably the kicker.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 07:02 PM

My point exactly. What I meant was if it were weight alone (not spinning) and not debilitatingly heavy, it wouldn't be enough for that much RC. Ergo, they must be spinning.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 20 2009, 07:10 PM

well, technically you could add under barrel weight, over barrel weight, and where the hell else you can fit them too . . including on your arms *snickers*
but because that would be silly, the rules say no, let's leave it at that. it's NOT the weight, but sentry-fuck-all force that gives recoil compensation

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 08:11 PM

Sentry?

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 20 2009, 08:16 PM

sentry-fuck-all
centrifugal

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 08:46 PM

That.... was bad. Very, very bad.


...But then, the beauty of a pun is in the "Oy!" of the beholder

Posted by: Mäx Mar 20 2009, 09:07 PM

There's a picture of the cyberarm gyromount in 336 of the BBB.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 20 2009, 09:16 PM

Not a very good one, I'm afraid :-/

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 20 2009, 09:49 PM

thank you, thank you, i will be here all . . ah fuggit, probably untill i die . . yeah, no, i got no life . .

Posted by: Dikotana Mar 21 2009, 10:31 PM

Realism in Shadowrun? Perish the thought!

At any rate, the explanation given seems to imply that the 'ware can't balance the neural signals quite right, which is why muscles get random, sudden, strong, but very brief chemical signals. In other words, lots of twitching.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 29 2009, 10:16 PM

So could someone post sample loadouts? I have no problem going down to .0001 Essence

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 29 2009, 10:22 PM

if you really have no qualms about that, go full body replacement and make it ALL modular as hell.
you now can do plug and pray with whatever you need him to do O.o

Posted by: Tyro Mar 29 2009, 10:27 PM

It's been my impression that someone who wants to go full-body shouldn't start that way - he should instead get the "meat-body" stuff at character creation that he'll still want later down the line (genetic optimization, synaptic boosters, etc.) or, if allowed to get Betaware at character creation, start with as much of that as he can afford and leave the rest meat until he has the money/contacts to improve it as well. Even with Born Rich, full-body Betaware is just too expensive for a starting toon to swing.

In other words, if you plan on full-body Betaware or above, you shouldn't get standard/alphaware at all - it's massively inefficient.

On a side note, opinions on Born Rich, Black Market Pipeline and Restricted Gear?

[Edit:] For a full body replacement, should I get a Synaptic Booster instead of MBW to take advantage of the Essence discount?

[Edit 2:] Are Bone Lacing and Bone Density compatible with a cyber torso?

Posted by: Rasumichin Mar 29 2009, 10:42 PM

In previous editions, it was noted that cyberlimbs always included the joint attaching the limb.
Cyberarms included the shoulder, lower arms the elbow and hands the wrists.
This isn't stated in SR4, but i still regard it as a valid point in my own game.

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 29 2009, 10:52 PM

believe it or not, all of the bone stuff has allways been fully compatible with replacements . .
i would go with move by wire, because then you do not need skillwires. also, nice dodge bonus.
that means you save karma on skills. and if you have certain things on char gen, you can have allmost all skills that are possible about 2 days in game time later for cheap.

Posted by: Tyro Mar 29 2009, 11:08 PM

I can get more defense dice with Gymnastics Dodge, a Synthcardium, Neo-EPO and high Clubs skill (spec. parry). And skillwires aren't that important when skills are practically all you spend Karma on

Posted by: Stahlseele Mar 29 2009, 11:27 PM

they are only important, if you wanna go swiss army knife, that much is true.
and yes, there's better ways for defense. BUT IT'S STILL MOVE BY WIRE!
Rule of Cool:
Cool Trumps EVERYTHING ^^

Posted by: Tyro Mar 29 2009, 11:28 PM

I personally think someone with full replacement + casemods (no skull, but a really nice helmet) + eyeband is the epitome of cool

[Edit:] Is Bone Lacing/Density compatible with cyberlimbs? I'd love a citation either way.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 11 2009, 02:43 AM

I would like to see the loadouts comparitive dice pools for Full Dodge vs Gymnastic Dodge vs Parry and see who gets the largest dice pool.

My impression:
Gymnastics Dodge > Parry > Full Dodge.

Obvious this doesn't allow for set circumstances (such as room for movement, etc - but by RAW I'm not sure how much that would come into play).

My take is that there's a plethora of cyber which allows you to improve athletics very easily and to a limited extent martial arts (I'm thinking genetech in Augmentation). There's only a limited amount of items which enable you to boost Dodge dicepools directly (MBW is the only one springing to mind easily).

I'm not taking Magic into account here however.

- J.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 11 2009, 12:51 PM

I was looking at this but the SR4 rulebook states you can't use limbs with strength/agility augmentations above 3 without a cyber torso:



Has this been fixed in SR4A? If I have other ware that brings up a character's attributes to the same rating as a cyberlimb, I fail to see whats the issue personally....

I would like a way to get maxed AGI, REA and still have room for two cyberlimbs, complete with cyberarm slides and gyromounts....

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 11 2009, 01:00 PM

There's a loophole of sorts.
if you get optimized limbs or whatever they are called, they do not count as enhanced.
so you can get the arm on a human up to STR6 and then get rating 3 enhancement up to strenngth 9.
and the ENHANCEMENT is NOT HIGHER THAN THREE . . so you do NOT need a Torso . . yeah, it's cheese, i know *g*

Posted by: The Jake Apr 12 2009, 11:22 AM

Found it - in Augmentation. Cheers. Dunno how I missed that.

Even so, I'm trying to come up with a build that is elven, has near maxed out agility (i.e. 12+), uber reaction and cyberarms with gyromounts and no less than 10 bp in Martial Arts and Ambidexterity. It's a delicate balancing act - I'm thinking biocompatibility (cyberware) is also the way to go.

Even with the optimised limbs in Augmentation, I can't seem to find an easy way to exceed AGI 11 without either a cyber torso or genetic optimisation (agility)/surge bonuses/exceptional attribute or the like

One a sidenote, does Synthacardium (3) only work if you have 6 in gymnastics/Athletics group? My build has a rating 4 so wouldn't that mean I can't get a benefit greater than 2 dice?

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 11:30 AM

Metagenetic Improvement,
Gentic Optimization,
Exceptional Attribute.
Now you are at 10 Agility on the Elf.
Then get the Cyber-Arms with Agility 10 and enhancement 3 for 13 Agility? O.o
Or Muscle-Stuff/Suprathoid Gland for example.

What does the Synthacardium state?
Usually, everything that does not, directly, add to skill is not limited by anything.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 12 2009, 12:47 PM

Actually, the math is wrong. Those three would bring the base agility to 11. O.o. Augmented maximum of 16 (rounds up?). Craaaazy.

EDIT: But I see what you mean - get racial unaugmented maximum above 8 through any of the above. Increase limbs to 9. Add rating 3 agility enhancenment. Voila - agility 12 limbs. It's worth noting that you can get agility 11 optimised cyberlimbs without Restricted Gear (avail 12). My only downside is I'd like to see that agility matching the rest of the body - so I'm leaning towards using Muscle Toner 4 with Restricted Gear.

I could do that, but then I'd lose on my martial arts (I'm picturing a more Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium than John Woo 'Akimbo' style gunslinger).

The thing that compounds with the qualities further is also the necessity of Restricted Gear for stuff like Muscle Toner 4 (unless you have a lenient GM on starting gear).

I should post my build when I get more time...

Synthacardium is a positive dice pool modifier to the Athletics roll. I didn't think there was a limit on modifiers, only bonuses to the skill rating? Or do I have that wrong.

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 12:58 PM

ah, yes, elves get +2 to agility and +1 to charisma right?
i think i got that mixed up somewhere.
Yes, Elves are twitch-gamers. Main-Problem i have with them is, that many usefull-skills use agility as linked attribute, and with that set-up, he would DEFAULT to 8 dice i think . .

But yes, do post that built in here.
We'll be happy to *ahem* offer helpfull critic ^^

Posted by: The Jake Apr 12 2009, 02:33 PM

Ahh jesus I'm off. Elves have agility 7, Charisma 8 max naturally. I don't even know how I missed that. Urggh...

Anyway.... conceptually I'm aiming for something like a Grammaton Cleric. I'm adept/cyber agnostic but my math works out more favorable using cyber. This may change with the recent SR4A
rules where they reduced the cost of adept powers but since I don't have it and won't be using them, its a non-issue.

I'm picturing a character with absurdly high dodge ability, awesome shooting with twin Steyr TMPs (with gas vent 3 and melee hardening at a minimum) and if all else fails, clubbing them with the pistols. I'd like to give Close Quarters Combat group and some points with the Stealth group but even defaulting on an absurdly high Agility, I could care less for the moment. I've had to cut skills to the bare essentials to get the spread I'm after (maybe too much).

Very loosely:
20 dice to Automatics rolls, excluding smartlinks and vision enhancement mods.
17 dice to Gymnastics Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Dodge rolls.
23 dice to Full Parry.

I'd like to give full tricked out cybereyes and ears and attention co-processors but I'm tight for cash atm - plus its trivial to setup so I haven't worried about it.

Off the top of my head, total cost so far is 397 BP - not enough for contacts, guns or armor. Clearly it needs a bit of tweaking but I think that's enough to get an idea of what I'm trying to achieve.

I'm open to any/all criticism here.
------------------------------------------

Race: Elf (30BP)

Attributes: (200BP)
Body: 4 (6)
Agility: 7(11)[11]
Reaction: 4(9)
Strength: 3[9]
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 4
Logic: 1
Willpower: 4
Edge: 1 (meh can raise it later)
Essence: 0.21
Initiative: 11(13)
IP: 1(3)

Positive Qualities:
Ambidexterity
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner 4)
Biocompatibility (Cyberware)
Martial Arts: 15 (Krav Maga - Ready Weapon As a Free Action, Take Aim As A Free Action, -1 to shooting into melee) --> I'd like more but this is all that fits.
Maneouvers: Iajitsu, Multi-Strike, Two Weapon Style, Vicious Blow, Set-Up, Finishing Move

Negative Qualities
Addiction (Novacoke, Moderate): 10
Augmentation Addict: 10
Combat Monster: 10
Incompetent (Hacking): 5
(No real reason for these. I just like the above flaws. In all honesty I'll probably change to In Debt to get more cash. Funnily, this will be more appropriate to the background story I have in mind anyway)

Cyberware/Bioware: Essence Cost: 5.79 (This will cost 41BP alone).
Two cyberarms (optimised - Agility 8, Strength 6, Rating 3 Agility and Strength enhancement, Cyberarm Slide, Cyberarm Gyromount)
Reaction Enhancers (2)
Wired Reflexes (2)
Muscle Toner (4)
Synthacardium (3)
Reflex Recorder (Automatics)
Genetic Optimisation (Agility)

Skills: (126BP)
Automatics: 6 (Machine Pistols +2)
Athletics Skill Group: 4
Unarmed Combat: 4 (Krav Maga +2)
Clubs: 4 (Parrying +2)
Perception: 3
Dodge: 4 (Ranged Combat +2)

cheers

- J.

Posted by: Wasabi Apr 12 2009, 07:55 PM

The Jake, remember that if you are a SURGE character you can get Biocompatability as a positive Surge ability along with Metagenetic Optimization. The SURGE-based Metagenetic Optimization not only raises the max attribute by yet another point, it also gives you the free point.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 08:06 PM

If you want top go all out with twinkage, look for the thread with the quadruple wielded SMG'S *snickers*

Posted by: The Jake Apr 13 2009, 01:55 AM

True but I'd still have to give up Restricted Gear and 5 BP of Martial Arts... the loss of Muscle Toner 4 hurts the build too much.

There was a whole raft of other stuff I'd LIKE to buy or have fitted in somehow:
Neo-EPO, Reakt, Pushed, Sideways, etc.

Anyways the above is more of an experiment to see how I could combine a very high agility + twin cyberarms to make a functional street samurai in the vein of Equilibrium. It's actually quite hard to get it to a point I'm happy with.

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 13 2009, 08:28 AM

That's the built in balancing for you *shrugs*

Posted by: The Jake Apr 13 2009, 09:28 AM

Any other feedback on my build? Anything I haven't factored in to optimise it further?

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 13 2009, 09:35 AM

Nothing i can see right off the bat.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 13 2009, 05:13 PM

Your modified Agility is to high. Augmented max is 10. You need to go surged or somehow get the points for Genetic Opti or Exceptional Agility.

I would strongly suggest using Surged at the very least to get your Biocompatibility (cost 5BP, use the extra 5 BP you save for another level of Martial Arts).

*Edit*
My bad, I just noticed that you do have Genetic Optimization: Agility. The Surged suggestion still stands though.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 13 2009, 05:17 PM

Ah, right, as of SR4, Attributes are rounded down . .

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 13 2009, 08:01 PM

He looks like a pretty top-notch Grammaton Cleric to me. Something between him and this one cyborg-badass priest guy from a manga I read now and then(with the heavy cybernetics and all.)

Posted by: The Jake Apr 14 2009, 03:29 AM

Will do. It's worth it in hindsight. I may post the gun I plan on him using soon too...

- J.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 14 2009, 06:22 AM

Here is the pistol of choice for all aspiring Grammaton Clerics:

The custom look was originally intended for staredowns (+2 mod per weapon when drawn (+4 total) + elven charisma would be impressive I thought, but I ran out of points). Ideally I'd make it undetectable to MADs but I can't do that without using additional restrictive gear. Recoil compensation on this weapon alone is 5 before factoring in gyromounts and strength.

I'm not entirely sure on the legality of having two grip mods - I'm thinking most GMs wouldn't have an issue with the above.

- J.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 14 2009, 02:05 PM

Nice. The 5-7C is my fav machine pistol and I have lots of build outs on it. I take it you mean topmount instead of underbarrel mount for the laser sight, it being an MP and all (no underbarrel slot). I like how you went with lots of 1 point modifications, something I do also since it seems most of the 2 and 3 point mods are not worth it.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 14 2009, 04:11 PM

Hmm, havent checked this thread in a while but this looks interesting!
Couple of points i noticed in the build:
-You have cyberarms with AGI 11, why do you need the muscle toner? It doesnt work with cyberlimbs
-Unless they changed it in SR4A or an errata i'm unaware of, reaction enhancers dont stack with wired reflexes
-Do you really need all of those maneuvers? Thats 12BP invested there, and i think it could probably be used better elsewhere for a truly maxed build (like, say, surged metagenic improvment...)
-To raise reaction, make him addicted to snuff, effectively raising reaction by 1 since he never stops
-Why do you have both the athletics and dodge skills so high? And also that synthacardium? If you are going for gymnastics dodges then i can see it, but then why get the dodge skill?
-I wonder if Clubs (Pistol whip) could be seen as a legit spec for MP's....i currently know someone who uses it with 2 Super Warhawks

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2009, 06:24 PM

Good point on the Muscle Toner and the Arms, but RE and Wired do stack again, as far as i know.
Granted, that's about as far as i could throw you i am afraid . . .

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 14 2009, 06:39 PM

I allowed something similar for my Denver team's Gunslinger Adept.

-paws

Posted by: The Jake Apr 15 2009, 08:05 AM

The rest of the body is propped up to AGI 11 with the Muscle Toner and listed in (). Cyberarms are calculated seperately and listed in [].
In any case, nothing under muscle toner or cyberarms doesn't state they aren't compatible. If you want to split hairs, there's nothing to stay that they don't stack...


My BBB explicitly states Reaction Enhancers do stack with other forms initiative enhancement. AFAIK, contrary to popular belief - this includes synaptic boosters if you want to get picky (nothing under either item states they are not compatible with the other). Unless someone can provide a direct quote to contradict that....


That was my mistake - I misread the rules in Arsenal. For some reason I assumed you get 2 martial arts maneouvers with 5BP - rather that 2 maneouvers is a limit you can purchase, not how many you begin with. I'll scrap those. Thanks for the pickup


At reaction 9 he's hit the augmented maximum. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot exceed that, even with drugs.


While its not stated in the rules, one GM would easily infer that you can't use Gymnastics Dodge every time (e.g. if there's a space limitation). I haven't checked, but I suspect my GM would agree. So I pick all 3. Is that just me? Or am I better off trying to stick with one form of Dodge only?


I could probably swing it with my GM. I just used Parry because it increased overall defensive ability and was RAW legal. Again, nice pickup though.

- J.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2009, 10:40 AM

Thinking about it, a good, basic Sam loadout, using SR4/Augmentation, could look like this(this is RAW legal, with Availability considered:)

Eye mods: Thermographic, Smartlink, Flare compensation(.3 ess)
Ceramic Bone Lacing(1.2 ess)
Synthacardium Lv. 2 or 3(.2-.3)
Wired Reflexes Lv. 1 or 2(2-3)
Muscle Augmentation Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)

Total: 4-5.15 essence(Normal.) Alphaware will lower these, of course-nuyen wise, normal, this loadout will run around 86250-117250 I believe. More for some Alphaware. If you want room to improve, either hit Wired 1 or suck up the extra 32k and get Wired 2 Alphaware.

This here could take care of a lot of things.

Eye mods aren't too many, but you can always load a pair of lv. 3 contacts up with some stuff, or glasses. The Smartlink is the thing that adds a big Availability boost to the items, so with that in the eye itself(and a sam should have something that he can't lose normally), it will help.

Bone Lacing adds a sweet +2 damage resistance, and better Unarmed damage if they go that route. Ceramic also is undetectable by MAD scanners.

Synthacardium helps all Athletics, including Gymnastics Dodge.

Reflexes give the all-important extra passes. Expensive, but sooo useful. The more, the better.

Muscle Toner/Augmentation helps raw stats a bit.

For an extra 10k and a bit of essence, one could throw a Reflex Recorder in here.

I was considering making lists for different kinds of sams and popping them up somewhere for the hell of it if I get bored.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 15 2009, 10:54 AM

This is the thread for it.

Is it worth bringing up cyber-adept builds here as well?

Originally, my Grammaton Cleric idea was an adept but the more I looked at it, I got more mileage going the cyber route. Yes I don't get improved ability, but attribute limits are laughable when you throw in Metagenic Improvement, Improved Attribute and Genetic Optimisation. Adepts have been significantly nerfed in SR4 with the cap on ability increases to 1.5x the skill rating.

I really don't see what adepts offer when compared to a cybernetic equivalent except for very, very specific builds. By design, you have to overspecialise and in doing so, lose survivability.

- J.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 15 2009, 11:03 AM

Bio-adepts are really awesome in this.

I'd stick to bio only, though, unless it's just eyemods or other little tiny things you are looking at(though-occasionally it can be worth it, since Essence is halved of the lower thing. Ive found it to be the case sometimes). A good bio-adept loadout(again, a basic samlike build):

Synaptic Booster Lv. 1(.5)
Muscle Aug Lv. 2(.4)
Muscle Toner Lv. 2(.4)
Synthacardium Lv. 3(.3)
Aluminum Bone Lacing, Alphaware(.8 essence halved to .4)

Total Essence: 2. 4 essence left, which is 4 Magic afterward. Since you have your Reflexes and stats, it's all gravy to what you purchase with that 4.

However, in 4A, the adept powers are lowered-1.5 gets you 1 level of Reflexes. If you use the optional Geas rule in Street Magic(the old rule-the one where your power gets 25% off it's cost, like in SR3)-that 1.5 can be lowered again to around 1.25(after the rounding nonsense, since 25% of it is an odd number, and adept powers go in .25 of a point. The exact cost would be 1.125, which a reaaally cool GM might let you round to 1.) It's a little better now.

If you don't mind splashing the money and would rather stay MAD friendly, ditch the Aluminum and a couple levels of the Synthacardium and get Bone Density 2 or something. It could work as well.

I have one pure adept that is actually very, very good in his field(close combat), but he does lack the variety of my sam. In a knockdown dragout fight, they would be about even. But the sam can do a whole lot more on the side. The Adept, though, has a few little tricks up his sleeve that my sam doesn't have. Adepts are really good, but yeah, I find a bit more specialized in general.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 15 2009, 12:13 PM

@ The Jake

Actually, the BBB p.335 does state they are incompatible:

Emphasis added by me, but they dont stack. The point i was trying to make was that for a sam like this, your primary use of agility will be to hit things, and for this you will be using your arms. Ergo having the rest of your body with 11 agility doesnt seem like it is going to help much.



Well here is what i am operating off of, actually on the same page (335):

You can argue that reaction enhancers are not an initiative enhancement since they dont grant IP's, but since they raise reaction which is used to calculate initiative i classify them as initiative enhancement.



You can quite legitimately have all three, its just that i see the synthacardium as a way of boosting the gymnastics dodge as much as possible. Since i am looking at this as a contender for "best street sam" i would rely more on the dodge defense here since you know that is applicable everywhere, and when not dodging in combat you already have high enough attributes to be good at athletics even if you have it at low levels. If you lowered the athletics group to 2-3 which is still a good level for this guy and lost the synthacardium it frees up extra resources for other goodies.

Also noticed something else there with the cyberlimbs: you cant actually fit in all of those enhancements with the limbs capacity.
Cyberlimb Gyromoung: 4
Cyberarm Slide: 8
Strength mod: 3
Agility mod: 3
Total=18
Full cyberarms only have a capacity of 15 i'm afraid

Currently working on my own version of this street-sam special edition, using the move-by-wire system. Will post it when i'm done, see how it works out. So far i have managed to get Reaction 12 and agility 11, with mostly the same skills

Like the gun by the way

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 15 2009, 12:56 PM

Bulk-Modofication?

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 15 2009, 03:41 PM

Wouldnt work i'm afraid. Optimising cyberlimbs raises availability, as does the bulk modification. And with the amount of optimisation he has it is already at availability 12. You could use the bulk mod to fit more stuff in but then you would need to take restricted gear or get less of an attribute boost in the limb

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 15 2009, 04:02 PM

SR4A, Reaction Enhancers are compatable with Wired Reflexes again. And as stated, bulk modification on the arms will get you the slots.

I got an Agility: 15, Reaction: 10 Elf sniper/sensor Sammy from hell. Actually, you can't really call him a sniper, since he shoots any firearm/launcher he picks up with 22 (+ Specialization, + Smartgun) dice. Granted, not very hard to get with a 15 Agility but he is good with everything.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 15 2009, 04:05 PM

How'd you get AGI 15? Care to post the build?

- J.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 15 2009, 04:19 PM

Ah, so SR4A does allow reaction enhancers to stack with wired reflexes. I don't have access to the book so i wasn't sure.
BUT bulk modification would not be the optimal solution for fitting stuff into limbs in this case.
Availability of full cyberarm: 4
Custom limb attributes: +1 per point over 3(which is where it starts)
bulk modification: +1 per extra capacity
So you could use the bulk mod to get the extra capacity, but the limbs are already at 12 from the custom attributes.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 15 2009, 04:26 PM

Ok - granted they don't stack. My only reason for the cyberarms were for the gyromounts - I'll be honest. Everything else is negotiable. But my point stands - I can have Muscle Toner apply to the rest of the body. I just never want to be in a situation where I have to use my unaugmented agility.



Read the Reaction Enhancers - p. 334 of the BBB:



Emphasis mine. Looks pretty darn clear to me that you can. If not for Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Accelerators and MBW (which all have the same text you're spouting) then what is the point of the bold text? I'll tell you - the only reason that they say Initiative boosters aren't compatible with other boosters is to prevent munchkins stacking MBW(3) with Synaptic Accelerators(3) to get 7 IPs or more.



Hrmmm.... point taken but I think I'm going the other way. I'm leaning towards scrapping Dodge based on a few posts here and comments in the other Dodge threads. Unless my GM is a truly evil bastard, it should work and is RAW legal.



Bugger! I dunno how I missed that. I deliberately maxed the availability on the limb. Even if I squeezed in metagenic optimisation I'd have to drop STR by 1.

The only way I can see fitting it all is to lose the slide (which is doable given there is a non-cyber variant).



I'd like to see it. Please post it. Thanks on the gun.

- J.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 15 2009, 04:39 PM

Actually move by wire specifies that it is compatible with reaction enhancers, unlike the others....but meh, InfinityZen just said that SR4A allows them to stack anyway. So no biggie then

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 15 2009, 06:51 PM

Not in a begining character is how. He is in the 800BP thread over on the Community Projects side of the forum.

As for the 15 Agility, Elf (7) with Exceptional Agility (+1), Metegenetic Improve: Agility (+1), Genetic Opti: Agility (+1), Muscle Toner 4 (+4), and Suprathyroid Gland (+1) nets you a 10(15) Agility. He has Genetic Opti: Reaction to end up with a 6(10) and 4 IPs. His equipment cost might be a little off, since I've built and rebuilt it so many times (though the bio and cyber are fine).

He's a good guy, shoots his pistol with 26 dice (or 13 & 11 if going dual welding), his assault rifle with 26 dice, his sniper rifle with 26 dice, his assault cannon with... you guessed it, 26 dice, and his machine gun with... damn, only 24 dice.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 15 2009, 07:50 PM

Oh, nice!
Thanks, I missed that.

-paws

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 16 2009, 08:59 AM

Well here we go then, my take on this experiment. I have never actually made a Sam who relied on Cyberlimbs quite like this guy before.

Presenting: The "I'm not a cyborg, really!" Street Samurai

First lets look at the attack pool for the primary weapon: the machine pistols
-For most attacks with a single gun, it will be 22 with the smartlink
-With a long burst, it will be 23 with tracers+laser beyond short range
-Doing a full burst at a single target, it is 24 before calculating recoil beyond short range
This is before any negative modifiers (recoil,range,cover etc) however.
For close combat, the cyber-spurs will be the primary weapons with a dice pool of 17 to attack, doing 8P base damage

Dodge skill is 21 for ranged full defense, 19 in close combat without full defense, and 25 with full defense (MBW adds to the skill rating for dodge, not extra dice, therefore they double with full defense: 12+1+6+6)

Initiative of 16
Perception pool of 7 (+2 visual from cyber-eyes)

He has Ultrasound, Thermo + Low-Light vision so almost all vision mods will be negated, plus he has vision magnification for long range shots.

Armour of 12/7, with a body of 5 for damage resistance.
Condition monitor: 13 Physical/10 Stun

Contacts are actually pretty pitiful there, so a skill could probably be lowered to free up more for those.
For advancement,any earned will probably go into activesofts for the move-by-wire's inherent skillwires and alphaware upgrades, while karma is used to upgrade edge/willpower

Oh, and he has his own warped background count. I thought it was fitting considering how close the guy is to becoming a cyber-zombie . Augmentation addict was sooooo tempting....

As a counter to this i started making a troll i am terming "Mr. Frag-It". 2 IP's, 23/23 Stealthy Milspec Armour, 9 Body+2 for damage resistance, and a Semi-Auto grenade launcher with smartgun (and chameleon coating ). He also has enough recoil comp to fire his High-Velocity Ares Alpha (with chameleon coating) without taking any penalties. All with 1 essence left!

Posted by: Tyro Apr 16 2009, 07:13 PM

Is there any point for getting spurs other than quick access?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 16 2009, 10:00 PM

Style? O.o
Being able to implant chemical gland and/or drug reservoir that can be filled with something nasty?
One of my most successfull Character Designs in 3rd ed was a Troll with maxed out Strength(16),
Dikote on his Hand-Blade bringing Damage up to 20M and then added GammaScopolamine for another 10D Stun immediately after.
One such blade on each Hand, each with 8 Doses of Gamma Scopolamine.
Meaning i could probably have downed 20 of WHATEVER if i ever got to play him again.
Of course, the Troll-Size Ranger-X Bow with 24M Damage Arrows tipped in the Stuff probably would have helped a lot too ^^

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 17 2009, 08:39 AM

The fact that they are easy to access as implants is the main reason i gave him spurs. Since the characters main shtick would be shooting things in the face, he is going to have his hands occupied with guns. If someone gets close, he can easily drop the guns (disabling the gecko grips) and pop spurs to deal out the pain. Plus they are a lot easier to carry around in addition to other equipment.

I would have loved to have chemicals on the spurs, but he has no capacity left in the limbs and no monies left over

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 17 2009, 09:13 AM

Bit of a stretch, but if one of my characters gets internal blades, he gets the venom sacks and a permit because he uses them to "inject dangerous critters with tranquilizers" ^^

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 18 2009, 11:43 AM

awww, no more comments on the build then?
Although it is only one type of possible street sam build, i tried to continue to make him into the best guy you could get with machine pistols at chargen. I want to see other peoples opinions of whether i succeeded in the improvement.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 18 2009, 01:21 PM

sorry, i don't know my way around the 4th ed rules/generation system

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 05:11 AM

I had a picture in my head of a Wolverine/Cyber hybrid using Laes coated Cyberspurs....

- J.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 19 2009, 06:23 AM

I really think you did a damn good job at keeping him awesome at machine pistols while NOT going overboard and squeezing out every last tie to turn him into a one-trick pony. Problem is with squeezing out every last drop are the diminishing returns...eventually you just don't get enough for what you put in.

This guy though, can either shoot you up, cut you up, beat you up(13 dice in a fistfight is certainly not bad), notice things, and dodge like a maniac.

Okay, he's a LITTLE bit of a one-trick-no, maybe 3-trick pony(he's an awesome combat machine both ranged AND close in, but not much else-I consider one-tricks to only really be great at like, literally ONE aspect), but he does have room to grow out with some Karma, after all.

(and regardless what folks say, there is nothing wrong with playing someone who is heavily specialized. It can be a blast sometimes. )

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 07:58 AM

I concur.

When I create a build I don't mind specialising but I try to have 2-3 things he/she can be competent with. You definitely achieved that (and more efficiently than my example) and left more room for growth.

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 08:30 AM

i can see it now:
NPC looks down goes:"huh, where did that cut come from?"
*snikt*
NPC looks down goes:"huh, where did the cuts come from?"

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 09:16 AM

now i just have to make a character that does that
But, hmmm, i dont think you can synthesize laes since its an awakened drug so he would have to have a refillable gland

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 09:25 AM

Who cares when you have AGI 15 cyberarms?

I did wonder if it could be synthesized. The Awakened bit is a killer.

The concept I was floating as the basis:

Dwarf
+ dermal sheath
+ titanium bone lacing
+ MBW
+ Symbiotes
+ Platelet Factory
+ Trauma Dampener
+ Laes coated spurs.

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 09:45 AM

Are Venom Sacks out? O.o
In SR3, each sack held 2 Doses of the Compound.
And there was NO LIMIT to their number.
And at 0,05 Essence you could load up with them untill your arms looked ike those in LIIEEFEELD Comics too ^^
And you got to chose which drug you wanted to use, so you could have a sack with laes, one with gammascopolamine, one with fugu . .

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 09:48 AM

And probably the ars cybernetica (sp?) martial art to go along with it.
EDIT: and yes, you can get cyber for drugs to be stored in. They just need to be refilled unless you have a bio-gland that makes the drug/toxin constantly.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 11:18 AM

Yes, but with that setup, you can chose what kind of drug you want to use and switch out at will.
only thing i really like about the chemical gland is the accompanying immunity to the self produced poison.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 11:38 AM

I was more partial to Eskrima for this build.

- J.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 12:38 PM

Afraid i dont have my books with me, so i cant remember what eskrima advantages are. But i'm pretty sure that getting all of that cyber will put you on 250k+ straight off the bat, and you made need a couple of things alphaware to get the essence. I think it could be done (born rich/in debt) but maybe the character would be more suited for the 800BP thread?
Also: Although having titanium bone lacing is damned cool, it renders cyber-spurs obsolete due to having the same damage (S/2+3). Of course, you cant have laes coated hands....
"Okay, here we go!"
"..."
"Why are my covered in something?"

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 12:47 PM

Yep. Pretty much dead on the money (no pun intended).
See the cost in terms of nuyen and essence:

Titanium Bone Lacing 40,000 1.6
Dermal Sheath 3 40,000 1.6
MBW2 85,000 3
Platelet Factories 25,000 0.2
Trauma Dampener 40,000 0.2
Symbiotes (2) 20,000 0.4

Change bone lacing to ceramic and dermal sheath a rating 2 and it becomes a lot more feasible. You still need to look at biocompatibility or alphaware for it to really work however...

The above doesn't include strength and agility enhancements either.

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 01:38 PM

Why would laes-covered hands NOT work?
You could have your whole natural BODY covered in something.
Just specify sweat as Vector.
But of course, that will be pretty awkward, especially your sex-life will suffer.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 02:00 PM

DMSO+Laes FTW.

Having said that, I fail to see how the in game date rape drug of choice would not improve your character's sex life.... (ok, that was very wrong, but I couldn't help it).

- J.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 02:12 PM

Has anyone got a preferred tanking build they use?

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 02:13 PM

Shadowrun 3rd Ed i could build you Trolls and Orcs that could take a Panther round to the head and complain about a black eye . .
Yes well, i was talking about VOLOUNTARY Sex-Life . .
of course, hookers would work . . have sex, they forget, you disappear . . freebies galore O.o

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 19 2009, 02:25 PM

I'd say for tanks in SR4, you have two things you need:

Dodging
Soaking.

Both of these will make you an effective tank.

For starters, get that Reaction and Body up as high as you can before the diminishing returns eat you. Reaction enhancers, metagenic improvement, and Move by Wire(the latter also helps with Dodge, but beware the Essence cost.) An ork or troll works well here, since neither race takes a Reaction minus. Also, don't worry about Strength. This big guy isn't going to be dishing out the hurt as much as taking it(see below, however), and most of your BP will probably be used up twinking Body and Reaction. Also: Don't forget Willpower! Get this up high too. Remember it adds to Stun meters and makes it easier to resist spells. Tanks need to resist all kinds of damage.

Next up, take Dodge over Gymnastics Dodge. While I am an ultimate fan of the latter, being a big melee fan, this tank-type character isn't really a damage dealer, and you'd rather have the big Dodge skill to double. He'd probably be best with a nice big gun from afar. Give Agility a boost, and hand him a nice big assault rifle, and he'll be a credible enough threat for them to want to attack him. Automatics 4(+2 Assault Rifles) with a Smartlink, and a 4(6) Agility(5(7) for an ork) and have said assault rifle totally beefed up and loaded with nice ammo, and he'll be able to deal nice hurt from afar.

Get Dodge 7 with Aptitude. Specialize in Ranged.

Pick up Dermal Sheath-as high a level as you can afford Essence and Nuyen wise. Do the same for Bone Lacing.

Load up on the most powerful armor, FFBA, PPP, and the whole nine to go along with this.

If you have Quality points left, stuff to make him harder to hit with spells would be highly suggested.

Trauma dampers/etc also help, for if they DO get hit.

Congrats, you have a character with a huge Body score, and tons of armor for soak...if they get past his massive Defense pool to begin with. Being able to hose the oppositon with an assault rifle will make him enough of a threat for them to turn fire on him. Let the tanking fun commence.

The drawback to the cyberlimb version is the fact that while armor stacks, it eats up Capacity quickly and you won't be able to afford the massive Body mods you need. Also, you'd want multiple limbs replaced to be able to get the high Body average. I find the above build, while rather expensive and will use up a lot of nuyen and essence, a better bet.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 02:26 PM

Tanking as a sam? here are my preferred bits of cyber

For non cyber-limbed characters:
Aluminium bone lacing (titanium maybe, the essence is pretty high for the bonus)
Dermal Sheathing (3 if possible, usually 2)
And maybe the trauma dampener/platelet factories combo if i feel like it. Tanks can excel at many things since this doesnt cost that much as a base...

For cyber-limb characters the solution is quite simple. Full limbs with the armour mod

As for gear, if i dont care about being noticeable it has to be Heavy Milspec Armour. And if dont want to be seen i just give the armour ruthenium coating...

Four cyberlimbs with 2 armour=8,+milspec armour+helmet=26/24 armour. Be a troll and you get an additional +1, then carry around a ballistic shield for an extra +6/+4
Voila! 33/29 armour!

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 02:57 PM

I know orks and trolls rock for the minmax factor, but I can't believe dwarves don't get more of a showing here....

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 03:00 PM

Not enough Body bonus.
If there was a Dwarf that switched out Strength for Body, it would work out more favourable.
I do like my dwarves, but not as a tank usually O.o
They are too frigging small . . a Troll can tank simply because:"if he is standing in front of you, you are not seen any more"

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 03:03 PM

To be honest, when i make a character that i actually intend on playing in a game, its a dwarf about 50% of the time. Although i love twinkage i dont like the idea of role-playing orks, although trolls can work (dont question my mind ). And dwarves do lose out in terms of min-max potential. I did make a dwarf sammy in 5 mins once though for a quick one shot. He could punch people for more damage than shoot his gun. His catchphrase ended up being "Something is getting punched!!!" cause he kept getting tasered

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 03:08 PM

As for punching things: yes, dwarves, simply because their height puts their shoulder/punching at the same height your nuts are usually.
But you can'T use someone as a meatshield if he's only half as tall as you!

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 19 2009, 03:20 PM

True, but then if all you want is something to hide behind i think heavy combat drones/trucks provide good cover too. Its pretty easy to gets your riggers hands on 3-4 steel lynx's and a vehicle with 20 armour to cart them around in.
I see the tanks job as being the one to draw fire, not simply be mobile cover. And a dwarf can provide that pretty well, even if they dont register at the same threat level as a troll when the corp-sec spots the team.

Hmm, interesting team dynamic:
-"Pansy" troll hacker/mage (S/B min at 5)
-Dwarf tanker Street Sam
-Ork Face
Not exactly your normal runner team i dont think, would be interesting though

Also this reminds me of combat hackers who use AR, they can make decent sammies sometimes. I made an ork one who was pretty damned decent in combat. He had wired II (so he didnt need to slip into VR for a turn), and made use of a tacnet with his posse of LEBD drones and was no mean hand with an SMG. I'll see if i can find his sheet somewhere.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 19 2009, 04:31 PM

Well, I play our team's sam, who is an elf. He punches/kicks for harder than the other guy shoots an HMG(11P base, with 16-17 dice, the latter with Kick Attack, to do it.) I wouldn't call him a tank, nor a glass cannon(Body 5, +3 Damage resist with Titanium Bone lacing, and a +1 from Suprathyroid). He does sport an armor jacket(8/6), PPP 1/3(9/9) FFBA 2(4/1) and Bone Lacing(total armor 14/11). So while awesome, he's not in Ubertank territory. (His defense pools run around 8 for non-full ranged up to 18 for full melee, and stuff in between. He's got several martial arts, including some Escrima, as he enjoys cutting things as well as smashing them sometimes. He uses guns if necessary, but does not prefer them.)

He's the team's muscle(9 Strength-and this can go higher the way I have him set up), but isn't a one-trick; he has a great Armorer skill which he uses to tweak up the team's weapons(and boy, does he have a big order from the guys now ), as well as decent enough social skills, though he's far from the party's face. I could have made his combat even more ridiculous, but I actually wanted to spread the guy around a bit. Our party's ork is no joke-he's quite the badass, but he's more of a lighter-cybered gunslinger/Ruger/knifewielding Wild West type of guy with other skills in tracking and the like.

The ongoing joke with him is his roundhouse kick. Not quite in the cheese level of Chuck Norris jokes, but with his physical ability, Tae Kwan So and Savate training he's done some spectacular things with his leg, including enough damage in one blow to remove someone's head from their body.

It's funny when you mentioned the ''not obvious tank'', because the big, bald ork with the duster in our team usually registers as more of a threat right off than the tall elf with the fairly-long white hair, wire rimmed glasses, and the cigarette does. Until he decides to let loose the roundhouse. (Not that the ork isn't a threat, however. He can shoot a hole through your forehead.)

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 20 2009, 09:38 AM

Ah, the good ole' ork cowboy archetype. Our version has a yamaha growler with the personality of a horse and gyro-stabilisation system as his personal ride to complete him, and Interest knowledge: Old wild west films 5

Out of interest, how many street sammies actually make use of the blood circuit control system? It seems to me to cost too much in terms of essence, , and availability compared to the bioware platelet factories.

Posted by: Cardul Apr 20 2009, 10:05 AM

Um...wow...cool idea!

Posted by: The Jake Apr 20 2009, 11:29 AM

I'm not sure but are there penalties for shooting at small targets (dwarves)? I can't see any in Arsenal or the BBB. Closest match is the 'Small Target' under Advanced combat rules in Arsenal but that doesn't really seem to fit the in line text....

On one hard, dwarves are penalised for not being able to wield reach 2 weapons easily, yet they don't get any perks such as penalties to hit. Harsh...very harsh..

- J.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 20 2009, 11:32 AM

Also, they only provide cover for the legs of the rest of the group