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Posted by: The Evil Mr Roboto Apr 1 2009, 05:12 PM

Mages conjuring spirits of Man?
Nature spirits not limited by domain?

Huh??!!??

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 1 2009, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (The Evil Mr Roboto @ Apr 1 2009, 01:12 PM)

Mages conjuring spirits of Man?
Nature spirits not limited by domain?

Huh??!!??

Welcome to SR4. I had the same reaction when I first flipped through the magic section.
Once you get used to it, it works pretty well.

-paws

Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 1 2009, 05:16 PM

I think with the flexibility of Traditions they had to break the old formula. Otherwise everyone would make their own traditions and hermetic and shamans would become a minority.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 1 2009, 06:23 PM

QUOTE (The Evil Mr Roboto @ Apr 1 2009, 12:12 PM)

Mages conjuring spirits of Man?
Nature spirits not limited by domain?

Huh??!!??

I heard they let orks and trolls vote and a dragon became president....

Posted by: Matsci Apr 1 2009, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (The Evil Mr Roboto @ Apr 1 2009, 09:12 AM)

Mages conjuring spirits of Man?
Nature spirits not limited by domain?

Huh??!!??

In 2067, A team of Research mages, in concert with the Great Dragon Schwartzkopf, Introduced the Unified theory of Magic.

It was so awesome that it changed everyone's view of magic forever.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 1 2009, 06:48 PM

Take Geasa against various things. Tada, tradition flavour restored. And you can do much more! You can use those other traditions in Street Magic. Like Shintoism, or Buddhism, or Chaos Magic! And they didn't need to build entirely new magic systems to do it!

You might be able to tell that I prefer the unified SR4 system to what I assume is a nightmare of conflicting systems.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 1 2009, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Matsci @ Apr 1 2009, 08:37 PM)

In 2067, A team of Research mages, in concert with the Great Dragon Schwartzkopf, Introduced the Unified theory of Magic.

It was so awesome that it changed everyone's view of magic forever.

Sorry, don't know if this is meant ironic or serious, but that's a complete different shoe and has nothing to do with the rules change, AFAIK.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 1 2009, 07:29 PM

its the canon justification for the rules change, iirc...

and while i loved the voodoo chapter in awakening, being able to fit 10+ traditions in the same space is a win imo...

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 1 2009, 08:48 PM

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 1 2009, 03:20 PM)

Sorry, don't know if this is meant ironic or serious, but that's a complete different shoe and has nothing to do with the rules change, AFAIK.

Okay then, blame it on the fluctuating mana level. Old boundaries are being broken. New ones discovered.

And there you go.

-paws

Posted by: Dwight Apr 1 2009, 08:53 PM

QUOTE (The Evil Mr Roboto @ Apr 1 2009, 10:12 AM)

Mages conjuring spirits of Man?
Nature spirits not limited by domain?

Huh??!!??

If you want to observe those old limits you have to use a mix of Geasa (which incidentally are different in that they no longer deal with Essence lost) and voluntary self restraint by the player.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 1 2009, 08:56 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 1 2009, 11:29 AM)

its the canon justification for the rules change, iirc...

and while i loved the voodoo chapter in awakening, being able to fit 10+ traditions in the same space is a win imo...

A better wording would be "To name 10+ traditions in the same space". All of the traditions are really the same but pick 5 spirits. They all use the same rules.

This makes things easier on new and old players. There is a cost though.

Posted by: Cain Apr 2 2009, 03:32 AM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 1 2009, 12:56 PM)

A better wording would be "To name 10+ traditions in the same space". All of the traditions are really the same but pick 5 spirits. They all use the same rules.

This makes things easier on new and old players. There is a cost though.

Yeah, it's flavor. Yes, the new system is very flexible and allows for more real-world traditions to be brought into Shadowrun. The problem is, there's so much emphasis on the new system, there's almost no description. Hermeticism and Shamanism get about four paragraphs of flavor each in the BBB. Of all the new traditions, they get maybe two. Fewer traditions, with richer descriptions, would have been a lot better.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 2 2009, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 1 2009, 10:32 PM)

Yeah, it's flavor. Yes, the new system is very flexible and allows for more real-world traditions to be brought into Shadowrun. The problem is, there's so much emphasis on the new system, there's almost no description. Hermeticism and Shamanism get about four paragraphs of flavor each in the BBB. Of all the new traditions, they get maybe two. Fewer traditions, with richer descriptions, would have been a lot better.

I would agree if these traditions were invented and the only source of info on them was in the rulebooks. Fortunately, all but maybe one or two (chaos tradition is the one I'm thinking of) of the magical traditions are based on, if not taken wholesale from, real-world theologies. More information is a Wikipedia search away. In that situation, fitting in more traditions at the expense of making players research the ones they find really interesting is the better choice, IMO.

This is actually one of the strengths of the Shadowrun setting. Don't know enough about <insert culture, geographical area, tradition, nation, etc>? You can look it up in any half-decent encyclopedia. You simply can't really do that in any game set in an invented world.

Posted by: Cain Apr 2 2009, 04:42 AM

Sixth World Hermeticism and Shamanism are only vaugely similar to their real-world counterparts. Similarly, Shadowrun Voodoo and real-world Voudoun have hugely different practices. The others haven't been as prominent, but those three at least deserve more than a couple of paragraphs; they deserve some detailed history, maybe even showing how they've affected the Shadowrun world.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 2 2009, 01:28 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 2 2009, 05:35 AM)

Fortunately, all but maybe one or two (chaos tradition is the one I'm thinking of) of the magical traditions are based on, if not taken wholesale from, real-world theologies.

Chaos Magic is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 2 2009, 02:19 PM

Yeah, but Shadowrun 4 Chaos Magic should be called anything but Chaos Magic.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 2 2009, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 1 2009, 11:42 PM)

Sixth World Hermeticism and Shamanism are only vaugely similar to their real-world counterparts. Similarly, Shadowrun Voodoo and real-world Voudoun have hugely different practices. The others haven't been as prominent, but those three at least deserve more than a couple of paragraphs; they deserve some detailed history, maybe even showing how they've affected the Shadowrun world.

I'm not really sure I agree with that, or at least I'd like to explain what you mean further. I know I personally haven't really run into many cases where I couldn't use real world research to apply to Sixth World magical traditions. Hell, that's how Peter and I wrote the traditions in Street Magic.

Yes, that real world research isn't going to include how those traditions (or any traditions) have impacted the Sixth World. But that's the responsibility of setting material in general.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 2 2009, 03:47 PM

QUOTE (paws2sky @ Apr 1 2009, 10:48 PM)

Okay then, blame it on the fluctuating mana level. Old boundaries are being broken. New ones discovered.

Forgot to answer, sorry. In my opinion there was nothing new discovered, it was just a rules change and the RAW magic rules of different traditions became geasa (if you would want to take them). There was no real distinction in magical traditions in third Edition, it all came down to what the magician believed and wanted to do. Fourth Edition just made that clear for itself and that's how the actual magic system came to be.
That's how i explained it to myself, be free to think something up for your groups. I'm just not happy with some In Game Justification of Tradition Mixing because "this and that happened and we learned from each other blurb". Not even the Unification Theory was that unified.

Posted by: hobgoblin Apr 2 2009, 03:50 PM

so what is a tradition, if not a collection of geasa?

Posted by: Cain Apr 2 2009, 05:21 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 2 2009, 07:52 AM)

I'm not really sure I agree with that, or at least I'd like to explain what you mean further. I know I personally haven't really run into many cases where I couldn't use real world research to apply to Sixth World magical traditions. Hell, that's how Peter and I wrote the traditions in Street Magic.

Yes, that real world research isn't going to include how those traditions (or any traditions) have impacted the Sixth World. But that's the responsibility of setting material in general.

Simply put, in the real world Hermeticism and Shamanism encompass hundreds of different practices. In Shadowrun, those practices have more or less been unified for simplicity's sake. An Enochian is treated the same as a Golden Dawn member. There could have been more, much more, describing the unique Shadowrun flavor of the two major traditions.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 2 2009, 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 2 2009, 09:21 AM)

Simply put, in the real world Hermeticism and Shamanism encompass hundreds of different practices. In Shadowrun, those practices have more or less been unified for simplicity's sake. An Enochian is treated the same as a Golden Dawn member. There could have been more, much more, describing the unique Shadowrun flavor of the two major traditions.

I would prefer to have less to describe the flavor. After all, I have access to wikipedia if I want real world data.

Mechanical differences were more interesting to me, as they would be unique and important for the game.

Posted by: Zaranthan Apr 2 2009, 05:30 PM

The point is, if you want your Enochian to be different from a Golden Dawn member, you just take different geasa. They didn't need to release an entire sourcebook fill with page after page of geasa templates for half the players to just ignore and make up their own stuff anyway. You know your character much better than Catalyst does, so who's the better candidate to dictate what that character can and cannot do?

Posted by: WeaverMount Apr 2 2009, 05:37 PM

I'm actually with cain on this one. The street magic write-ups are a really poor length. Either they should have been a sentence or two or a page or two. Why? As the mentioned Wikipedia. I don't feel like paying for the sound bit version of a magical tradition when I either know it already, or can look it u in a heart beat.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 2 2009, 05:57 PM

QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Apr 2 2009, 12:37 PM)

I'm actually with cain on this one. The street magic write-ups are a really poor length. Either they should have been a sentence or two or a page or two. Why? As the mentioned Wikipedia. I don't feel like paying for the sound bit version of a magical tradition when I either know it already, or can look it u in a heart beat.

So how would a two-sentence description have helped you? We did what we could with the word count we had available, balancing trying to provide a general idea of the tradition as well as trying to present a number of different traditions. I think they do a good job of presenting the basic idea of what the tradition is about, which is the goal. Because, honestly, when you start getting into the deep details of a magical tradition, they will vary from one practitioner to the next, so it's either useless or overly constrictive to get into that sort of detail in a rule book.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 2 2009, 10:26 PM

For the record, I think the Street Magic profiles are just about the perfect length. They give you enough info on the tradition to know whether it's something you'd be interested in playing. Two sentences would be useless from any standpoint, and two pages would be far, far, FAR too much when about 90% of the info they'd possibly put in those two pages is available for free online. Every page they waste duplicating stuff like that is one less page they can use to provide new rules.

And it's not like they've gone that in-depth into any other specific bit of Shadowrun rulefluff. Cain wants to know how Voodoo impacted the world, but if we give an impact statement for every tradition, why don't we get one for every piece of cyberware? I'd imagine Wired Reflexes have had just as much, if not more, of an impact on the world of Shadowrun, so why not two pages of backstory on that too? Where does it stop?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 3 2009, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 2 2009, 10:57 AM)

So how would a two-sentence description have helped you? We did what we could with the word count we had available, balancing trying to provide a general idea of the tradition as well as trying to present a number of different traditions. I think they do a good job of presenting the basic idea of what the tradition is about, which is the goal. Because, honestly, when you start getting into the deep details of a magical tradition, they will vary from one practitioner to the next, so it's either useless or overly constrictive to get into that sort of detail in a rule book.

Besides, If you want more flaver, these differences can also be modeled on Magical Initiation Groups for more in-depth coverage...
Seems to be an easy fix to me... Besides, I like that kind of thing myself, as it lets me integrate those "tradition" that I care about into the story on a more personal scale...

My Two Cents

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 3 2009, 01:44 AM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 2 2009, 12:25 PM)

I would prefer to have less to describe the flavor. After all, I have access to wikipedia if I want real world data.

Mechanical differences were more interesting to me, as they would be unique and important for the game.

The mechanical difference in previous versions of SR added more fluff to the traditions than 20 pages of fluff would have in 4e. I don't even know why they bothered to enter any traditions.

They could of just put:

Insert Real world religion here.
Insert Drain Stat here,
Insert Spirit
Here
Here
Here
Here
And Here.

And this would have been just as informative and had about the same amount of fluff as the current street magic layout.

Posted by: Cain Apr 3 2009, 02:38 AM

I prefer the "less is more" approach. Fewer traditions, in greater detail. I mean, you're trying to overview an entire religion in two paragraphs!

I like the suggestion that the Initiation group writeups would have been a better template. SM goes into more detail on those groups than it does any tradition, including Hermeticism and Shamanism.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 3 2009, 03:07 AM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 2 2009, 09:44 PM)

And this would have been just as informative and had about the same amount of fluff as the current street magic layout.

I disagree. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism (outside of the historical perspective). The paragraphs in Street Magic give me enough of an idea of what the tradition is about to know whether it's something I might want to build a character around. If I didn't have those paragraphs, I'd have no idea what the actual practices of Zoroastrianism are, and I'd be forced to do research to determine if it was even an idea I wanted to pursue. That's silly. The current amount of information provides a good balance between doing it for you and not wasting dozens and dozens of pages on fluff.

Posted by: Synner Apr 3 2009, 09:18 AM

Magic in the Shadows opted to introduce detailed mechanics for three different traditions (Path of the Wheel, Voodoo, and Wuxing) and reduce the remaining traditions to three sentence descriptions (that basically shoehorned the remaining magical traditions of the world into the 2 "dominant" traditions of Shamanism and Hermeticism). This was slightly at odds with the diversity of magical expressions and the metaphysics of Sixth World magic where belief does define the forms thaumaturgy takes (as exemplified by the magic of insane and insect shamans in Magic in the Shadows). Please, pick up Magic in the Shadows and try the flavor text for an Islamic or a Shintoist magician on for size. Or a Wiccan.

With SR4 there was a conscious decision to acknowledge and empower the diversity of magical beliefs and practices around the Sixth World (as well as introduce a system that allowed GMs and players to customize their own "ideal" traditions if they wanted) - this is also in tune with the intent to take the game to a more global level. This also meant streamlining the underlying mechanics so all traditions were (relatively) balanced. Obviously, many people preferred the mechanical differences the pre-SR4 traditions brought to gameplay and added diversity to the game mechanics - that's fine. We believed, however, that the mechanical differences were unnecessary complications and in many cases unbalanced play (ie.there were obvious mechanical advantages to taking Shamanism vs. Voodoo for instance, and Wuxing had many of the functional tropes of Shamanism with more versatile spirits). We thought and stll do that ultimately those functional differences could be (re)produced with fluff and roleplaying through the different paradigms, the rites and tropes, and (to return to the topic of this thread) the different individual take on spirits.

When we got to Street Magic there was never any question of whether we should provide 2 sentence blurbs or provide a two or three paragraphs that condensed the core paradigm, practices and beliefs of a representative sample of the most well-established Sixth World traditions. In fact, if you compare the actual fluff text about the beliefs of the three detailed traditions in Magic in the Shadows (as opposed to the drawn out mechanics), Street Magic contains most if not all the relevant fluff, minus embelishing fiction. Though I would have liked to have had the space Awakenings or Grimoire 2 assigned to fluff, this simply wasn't feasible - that's not to say you won't be seeing something like that in the future.

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 3 2009, 01:11 PM

QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 3 2009, 01:18 AM)

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

If ever a message was written in the front of the books for old timers coming back to the game, its mixed in above. The game is no longer focused on North America.

Good, bad, indifferent, many changes occur due to the wider scope.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 3 2009, 01:22 PM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 3 2009, 09:11 AM)

If ever a message was written in the front of the books for old timers coming back to the game, its mixed in above. The game is no longer focused on North America.

Good, bad, indifferent, many changes occur due to the wider scope.

Agreed.

As much as I love the Seattle setting (and have grown to enjoy Denver too), Shadowrun really needed a more global perspective.

While I would have liked to see a whole page dedicated to each of the SM traditions, I'm okay with what they came up with. Its just enough information to wet my appetite and make me want to do a little research on the side.

And the fact that there aren't pages upon pages of funky rules on particular traditions is a plus, for me. That's one of the reasons I strongly steered people away from Voodoo in the past.

-paws

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 4 2009, 07:15 PM

This was one of the parts of 4th ed I truly liked. the spirit/elements/conjuring rules for the first 3eds were so technical and even contradictory that it was a muddle. This really cut it down nicley to believable leveles. I mean a mage believes she has used her will to shape the basic element of the area, and the shaman says she has spoken to the true sense of the place, but what they have functions the same, it's just they view it differently.
like to you want the squid or the calamari? red sauce or marinara? spegetti or noodles?

Posted by: Tyro Apr 4 2009, 08:24 PM

I really love how Shadowrun handles magic. Drain, traditions, geasa, spirits, Adepts, the whole bit. Insect and toxic shamans were a stroke of genius. Small details (like the pricing of certain Adept powers) are a small price to pay for dumping Vancian magic into a singularity with a satisfactory flushing sound.

I liked how Street Magic handled things, including length of descriptions. That book is soley responsible for getting me interested (academically, not spiritually) in Zoroastrianism. Some of the spirit choices are a bit unbalanced, and it does feature a bit of power creep, but I can live with that.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 4 2009, 09:21 PM

QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 3 2009, 04:18 AM)

Magic in the Shadows opted to introduce detailed mechanics for three different traditions (Path of the Wheel, Voodoo, and Wuxing) and reduce the remaining traditions to three sentence descriptions (that basically shoehorned the remaining magical traditions of the world into the 2 "dominant" traditions of Shamanism and Hermeticism). This was slightly at odds with the diversity of magical expressions and the metaphysics of Sixth World magic where belief does define the forms thaumaturgy takes (as exemplified by the magic of insane and insect shamans in Magic in the Shadows). Please, pick up Magic in the Shadows and try the flavor text for an Islamic or a Shintoist magician on for size. Or a Wiccan.

With SR4 there was a conscious decision to acknowledge and empower the diversity of magical beliefs and practices around the Sixth World (as well as introduce a system that allowed GMs and players to customize their own "ideal" traditions if they wanted) - this is also in tune with the intent to take the game to a more global level. This also meant streamlining the underlying mechanics so all traditions were (relatively) balanced. Obviously, many people preferred the mechanical differences the pre-SR4 traditions brought to gameplay and added diversity to the game mechanics - that's fine. We believed, however, that the mechanical differences were unnecessary complications and in many cases unbalanced play (ie.there were obvious mechanical advantages to taking Shamanism vs. Voodoo for instance, and Wuxing had many of the functional tropes of Shamanism with more versatile spirits). We thought and stll do that ultimately those functional differences could be (re)produced with fluff and roleplaying through the different paradigms, the rites and tropes, and (to return to the topic of this thread) the different individual take on spirits.

When we got to Street Magic there was never any question of whether we should provide 2 sentence blurbs or provide a two or three paragraphs that condensed the core paradigm, practices and beliefs of a representative sample of the most well-established Sixth World traditions. In fact, if you compare the actual fluff text about the beliefs of the three detailed traditions in Magic in the Shadows (as opposed to the drawn out mechanics), Street Magic contains most if not all the relevant fluff, minus embelishing fiction. Though I would have liked to have had the space Awakenings or Grimoire 2 assigned to fluff, this simply wasn't feasible - that's not to say you won't be seeing something like that in the future.

For the record we are very satisfied with the results; Shadowrun 4 presents a setting where the action is a lot more global in scope and a significant number of players are using non-Hermetic and non-Shamanic magicians (though those two remain dominant) and this is as it should be in a globalized society.

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 4 2009, 09:27 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 4 2009, 05:21 PM)

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

At the very least, Materialization Traditions and Possession Traditions are extremely different in practice, which is as much diversity as there has ever been. And that's if you only take the absolute most obtuse view possible.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 4 2009, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 2 2009, 10:07 PM)

I disagree. I know absolutely nothing about Zoroastrianism (outside of the historical perspective). The paragraphs in Street Magic give me enough of an idea of what the tradition is about to know whether it's something I might want to build a character around. If I didn't have those paragraphs, I'd have no idea what the actual practices of Zoroastrianism are, and I'd be forced to do research to determine if it was even an idea I wanted to pursue. That's silly. The current amount of information provides a good balance between doing it for you and not wasting dozens and dozens of pages on fluff.

End of the day you are mage who uses logic for a drain stat and summons Fire, Air, Earth, Guardian, and Man spirits. Its all the same, you can act differently but really the differences are small. Before there were at least two traditions now there is one with basically roleplaying totem like differences.

Summer Dress Tradition
Basic Concept: Women are totally hot in Summer Dresses and they should wear them more often.
Spirits:
Man
Guidance
Air
Water
Earth
drain Stats: Intuition+Willpower.
Description:
Mages of this tradition see themselves as a type of artist. They want to move the world toward a higher plane of female fashion the Summer Dress. Fashion Designers of a peculiar bent, they never the less have there fan base. This is largely due to the known fact that women look sexy as hell in a Summer Dress. The practice of magic is an expression of the art form they hold close to there soul.
Steeped in a mixture of hippie symbolism and over the top fashion designer attitude it comes across as a free form magic system with attitude.
Summer Dress magic is the art of forcing your world vision on others in away that lets them see to true path. Appropriate mentor spirits are Seductress or Sun. The spirits summoned are seen as parts of nature or fashion appropriate individuals. Water spirits are the essence of a beach on a summer day, Air spirits a cool breeze, earth spirits may come forth in a way that symbolizes are lush garden, while guidance spirits may appear as fashion designers from a bygone age spirits of man as the embodiment of what mankind should be appear as women in summer dresses.
Summer Dress is a minor tradition found throughout the world. The Tradition finds its roots in the Fashion Designer Luc Masson a designer born in the 20th century.

Now other than the fact I'd roleplay this character a bit differently how is this type of amge different in any significant way to a Zoroastrian? Is the difference any larger to how a follower of the Dark King would act compared to a follower of a Sun mentor spirit? We are basically down to one mage with just different totem options now.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 4 2009, 09:57 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 04:27 PM)

At the very least, Materialization Traditions and Possession Traditions are extremely different in practice, which is as much diversity as there has ever been. And that's if you only take the absolute most obtuse view possible.

I'll give you that possession is different. But there were possession traditions in 3e as well. So main book we dropped from 2 to 1 tradition, in street magic it went form 3 to 2. And I don't consider it an obtuse view I consider it not a not covering my eyes and ignoring what's actually in front of me viewpoint.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 4 2009, 10:01 PM

The difference is that i know no GM who would allow that Summer Dress Tradition. It's idiotic and lacks any real life reference nor a proper concept.

A real Tradition is a bit more, there's a concept behind about what magic is, how spirits are handled and those nifty things to roleplay about. I think that's enough difference but i can understand the want for differences in the rules system.
But it isn't really necessary in my opinion.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 4 2009, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 4 2009, 05:01 PM)

The difference is that i know no GM who would allow that Tradition.

Your prejudice against Summer Dresses is duly noted. You will be converted to the true path one day.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 4 2009, 10:05 PM

Sorry. I am already occupied with several true paths to bother.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 4 2009, 10:13 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 4 2009, 04:03 PM)

Your prejudice against Summer Dresses is duly noted. You will be converted to the true path one day.

Are you Kidding Me?

Here is a real world parallel... What is the intrinsic difference between the mainstream Christian religions?... They have mostly the same beliefs, and yet, they are COMPLETELY different. Dogma, Rituals, Beliefs that have been formed over the last several thousand years... all from a very basic core concept...

Traditions in SR4 are no different in this regard... they all have a very core concept (Magical belief and ability) that is cast through a VERY different lens through Dogma, Ritual, Beliefs that have been formed over at the least decades, and in some cases over several thousand years or more...

There is an almost unlimited number of variant religious beliefs and dogmas that have been generated since mankind began to worship the things around him... why should the Magical Traditions be any different?

It will ALWAYS come down to the world View of the various Beliefs and Traditions... a ROLEPLAYING aspect rather than a mechanical aspect... the mechanics of belief are just that ... Belief...
Every thing esle is just one flavor or another...

My Two Cents

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 4 2009, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 4 2009, 04:05 PM)

Sorry. I am already occupied with several true paths to bother.

Well Said...

Posted by: Zurai Apr 4 2009, 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 4 2009, 05:54 PM)

End of the day you are mage who uses logic for a drain stat and summons Fire, Air, Earth, Guardian, and Man spirits. Its all the same, you can act differently but really the differences are small. Before there were at least two traditions now there is one with basically roleplaying totem like differences.

I disagree completely. You cannot ignore roleplay differences in a roleplaying game. A Zoroastrian will treat magic, spirits, the metaplanes, and life in general dramatically different from a houngan or a Shinto Priest. No, there's not much rule support for it (though there's more than you state), but rules aren't everything, and frankly forcing every tradition to be mechanically different is a bad, bad way to go. Why?

Because GMs would be forced to either memorize all the various traditions or ban them.
Because they would take up vastly more room in the rulebooks that could be used for other rules.
Because as you add more different rules you for the same rules space (traditions), the difficulty of keeping them all balanced with each other increases exponentially.
Because there's no reason to make specific mechanical rules when good roleplaying sense covers the differences just as well without causing any other problems. If your players don't have good roleplaying sense, then different rules aren't going to make the game any more fun anyway.

I could go on, if needed.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 4 2009, 10:20 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 04:16 PM)

I disagree completely. You cannot ignore roleplay differences in a roleplaying game. A Zoroastrian will treat magic, spirits, the metaplanes, and life in general dramatically different from a houngan or a Shinto Priest. No, there's not much rule support for it (though there's more than you state), but rules aren't everything, and frankly forcing every tradition to be mechanically different is a bad, bad way to go. Why?

Because GMs would be forced to either memorize all the various traditions or ban them.
Because they would take up vastly more room in the rulebooks that could be used for other rules.
Because as you add more different rules you for the same rules space (traditions), the difficulty of keeping them all balanced with each other increases exponentially.
Because there's no reason to make specific mechanical rules when good roleplaying sense covers the differences just as well without causing any other problems. If your players don't have good roleplaying sense, then different rules aren't going to make the game any more fun anyway.

I could go on, if needed.

Well Said...

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 4 2009, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 4 2009, 10:54 PM)

Now other than the fact I'd roleplay this character a bit differently how is this type of amge different in any significant way to a Zoroastrian? Is the difference any larger to how a follower of the Dark King would act compared to a follower of a Sun mentor spirit? We are basically down to one mage with just different totem options now.

Zoroastrians take different Geasa. OH SHI-!

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 4 2009, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 4 2009, 05:23 PM)

Zoroastrians take different Geasa. OH SHI-!

I mean, if you want to differentiate them in your game, find about 10 BP worth of gease for each one. Player starts with that geas when he takes his Magician quality.

Posted by: Dream79 Apr 4 2009, 10:52 PM

QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 4 2009, 09:21 PM)

You made every tradition the same and slapped a different name plate on the door. How does everything is the same empower other traditions? Sure in 3e and previous there were basically 2 traditions with different name plates thrown on the door for all the other traditions, but now there is only one tradition. Roleplaying it out only takes you so far, it does not hide that mechanically they are all identical.

More or less that's how it is. Although there may be a number of differing traditions and theologies that are based on differing views of the nature of the universe, but in reality (shadowrun reality anyhow) there's only one universe and one 'magic' even though differing cultures have varying views.

From a rules standpoint it also makes more sense to have two very generalized mechanics that allows the players to handle there traditions at the level they are comfortable with. In some cases a player may not desire to get to in depth into a tradition while SR 3's traditions may not have reflected the players knowledge of a tradition adequately enough.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 4 2009, 11:39 PM

Spirit choice can heavily influence style of play. Someone with access to spirits of Man, for example, will likely not sustain spells themselves - they'll summon a SoM with the ability to cast the spell, and tell it to sustain. Someone with Plant or Guardian spirits doesn't really need counterspelling for most situations (Magic Guard). And so on.

Also, Logic vs. Intuition vs. Charisma: Logic can be enhanced with cyber, Charisma can take advantage of Elven racial bonuses, and Intuition is an initiative stat and is linked to Perception. This will heavily influence how a magician character is built.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 5 2009, 01:05 AM

The funny thing about Shadowrun is that the earlier editions of Shadowrun explained the universality of magic repeatedly, but contradicted it mechanically. Let's take some examples from Awakenings:

QUOTE (Page 14)

At its base, all magic is the same. (Plenty of mages and shamans reading this are going to scream at me for saying that, but all the yelling in the world doesn't change the truth.) Magic is ultimately a universal force, and certain things about it are true for every kind of magician everywhere in the world. Magic is as universal an art as painting or writing and as universal a science as psychology.

QUOTE (Page 9)

Are there different kinds of magic?
Magic is a universal force that works essentially the same anywhere, so the answer to this question is no--there is only one kind of magic. However, there are many different kinds of magicians. Although magic itself does not vary, different people practice magic in different ways, just as different musicians may create different music with the same type of instrument.

And from Magic in the Shadows:

QUOTE (Page 14)

The Sixth World has hundreds of magical traditions, but at its most basic level all Shadowrun magic is the same. All magicians use the same Magical Skills. A Fireball spell cast by a Native American shaman is the same in game terms as one cast by an urban street mage, a Celtic druid, or a Taoist sorcerer, even though the appearance of the spell and the rituals used to cast it may differ.

That's been the funny thing about magic in Shadowrun's earlier editions. It explained itself as a universal but then presented itself as non-universal mechanically. And as the Shadowrun setting grew out of the borders of Seattle and included traditions beyond plain vanilla Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism, it began to really show its mechanical limitations.

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 02:01 AM

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 02:32 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:01 PM)

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 02:44 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2009, 07:32 PM)

I would say that it is not... but the Seattle (and North American) Bias for the original setting made it the only one that really mattered at the time, thus its focus... with 4th Edition, that paradigm is no longer inherently dominant, and we can now explore the more varied forms of shamanism (or hermeticism, or whatever), that permeate the world we live in...

But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 5 2009, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:01 PM)

I don't mind the rules at all. However, I stand by the fact that there's not enough flavor text describing the various traditions. How come Native American Shamanism is the basis for all forms of shamanic traditions? Going into more detail on Native American Shamanism would have explained that.

Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 03:00 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:44 PM)

But we don't. Instead, we get about a third of a page (less, really) describing a mishmash loosely based on North American Shamanism.

Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with an example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions. Will it take some work... Sure, But isn't that what gaming is all about... cooperative collaboration to provide an environment that is enjoyable to all? If a tradition you are interested in is not out there, create it yourself...

My Two Cents

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 4 2009, 08:46 PM)

Strictly speaking, whether the developers knew this or not, Native American shamanism is descended from north Asian shamanism (whence the name 'shaman' came). The detail you call for could have explained this and broadened the scope/perception of shamanism in the game.

How True...

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 03:40 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2009, 08:00 PM)

Just because it is not "explicitly" given in writing, the framework of the traditions have been provided, with am example of several traditions given to us in "Street Magic."

This is enough to allow us to generate an almost unlimited number of interesting and varied magical traditions....

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 5 2009, 04:26 AM

Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen http://despair.com/los24x30prin.html - it's so much better

Posted by: Zurai Apr 5 2009, 04:28 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM)

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 5 2009, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM)

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

Keep in mind that the time-strapped player or GM is going to spend time reading, whether it's in the sourcebook or on Wikipedia. But a book that adds 30,000 words for detailing traditions is going to be harder on the cash-strapped player or GM. Which isn't to say I wouldn't have loved to write twice as much (or more) about each tradition, but it's not seen as a big enough value-add for the customer.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 10:40 PM)

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Hindu brahmin NPC mage to your game, you'd pick up Magic in the Shadows and find absolutely nothing that helps you. No flavor text, no fluff. No mechanics. Do you shoe-horn the brahmin mage into 3rd edition Hermeticism? Shamanism? Voudoun? Do you make up the mechanics? Now you've got to do a bunch of research and figure out how it fits into the game. Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

Besides, I just re-read the Voudoun information in Magic in the Shadows, and more than half of the word count is devoted to explaining mechanics, sometimes literally repeating mechanics information already found in other sections of the magic rules.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 5 2009, 05:09 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 09:40 PM)

Instead, you have to go and research it yourself.

Gary Gygax argued that this is one of the greatest benefits of role playing games. You learn stuff. You learn how to learn stuff.

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 05:44 AM

QUOTE

Or you can read Street Magic and you know how it functions, mechanically, plus you have a solid bit of information about the Hindu magical tradition: the differences between the path of brahmin and the saddhu, the types of rituals common to their magic, the appearance of their spirits (ashuras), how they relate to mentor spirits, etc.

You and I both know that every tradition in SM is just a quick overview, barely scratching the surface. While I understand that you tried to draw a line between depth and completeness, I stand by the thought that less is more. Very few people know anything about the Zorastrian religion, for example; if it were completely missing, replaced by a few more paragraphs on Voodoo, wouldn't that make the Voodoo section better?

I'll also point out that Hermeticism and Shamanism deserved a repeat. Each of the traditions in SM have more word count than the core two. I think that's a crying shame.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 5 2009, 06:03 AM

I won't fault you for believing that fewer traditions is more valuable, but I will disagree with you. And as a writer, I know I can't please everyone. Everything I've written faced choices about word count economy. I personally think that the tradition write-ups in Street Magic are more valuable to players and GMs, but you disagree.

Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 4 2009, 08:40 PM)

No, it is not. You cannot create much of the flavor of a tradition using the fluff as written. Instead, you have to go and research it yourself. Sure, this isn't necessarily a bad thing; but it is bad for time-strapped players and GM's, who want to become interested in a tradition before introducing it into their game.

For those with Very Limited time, maybe that would be true... but I enjoy the research aspect to make sure that the tradition is accurate. Sure, I could look in the SR3 Magic book, but, since I do not have it (all of my SR3 material was stolen out of my car), well, then the Internet is the next best thing... and even so, I think that if you "do the research" it will take on more of a life in your game than just reading the text from Magic in the Shadows.... BECAUSE you did the research, it has more Life and Meaning, and since you wrote it up for your game, well, it will feel more real to the players as you will not be fumbling around trying to remember the text that you read...

But, Your mileage will vary... In my experience, the game information that I work on personally feels more real...

QUOTE

Picture this: if you wanted to add a Voodoo NPC mage to your game, you'd need to spend some time researching real-world Voudoun, to get his details right. You'd also have to extrapolate how the rules of Shadowrun magic would have affected the belief. Or, you can just read Magic in the Shadows. The SR4 fluff just isn't enough to convey a sense of the tradition.

Which is why I research the details anyway... the "Fluff" from Magic in the shadows could have some things wrong, and I would want to at least verify the data was correct... And yes, I even look into the data presented in the Street Magic reference to get more of a feeling for the details, and I tend to add these details as needed for each tradition.

Just my two cents

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 4 2009, 09:26 PM)

Off-Topic:

Just noticed your signature, Tymeaus, & was wondering if you had seen http://despair.com/los24x30prin.html - it's so much better

Nice... I like it... I may have to change my Signature...

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 04:19 PM

QUOTE

Removing Zoroastrianism to add a few more paragraphs to Voudoun might make the Voudoun section better, depending on what was in those paragraphs. The Voudoun section in Magic in the Shadows contains a lot of wasted word count. And cutting Voudoun out entirely and adding a few more paragraphs to the Zoroastrianism section might have made the Zoroastrian write-up better. Zurai, who posted above, might have appreciated that, but you probably wouldn't have.

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 4 2009, 11:03 PM)

And actually, the write-ups of Hermeticism and Shamanism in the core book have approximately the same word count as each tradition in Street Magic. They are sort of bland write-ups, though. Probably because they are in the core book, so they can be generalized for groups that don't purchase the other books. Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

Here, we agree. Hermeticism and Shamanism were due for a revisit in SM; but a revisit somewhere else would be nice as well. Fitting it into the location material would be perfect!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 09:19 AM)

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

Or, you do a little research, discover this fact and add the flavor yourself... A lot of people (all of those not familiar with Ryobu-Shinto), even with the inclusion that you suggested, would STILL need to do their own research to make the Tradition of Ryobu-Shinto a playable one.

I will say it again... Research is not a bad thing...

Two Cents and all that...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 09:28 PM)

You're talking about something completely different than what TJ was. He was talking about being able to create your own traditions. You're talking about creating NPCs from existing traditions. The two aren't even remotely related, and he IS correct. You're the one who either misread or intentionally misunderstood what he was saying, and are thus wrong.

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

Thanks for the support... Much Appreciated...

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 5 2009, 04:32 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 10:19 AM)

That's because Voodoo holds a special place in the Shadowrun world, while Zorastrianism doesn't have much influence even in the real world.

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 04:37 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 09:32 AM)

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?" Those who do check it out find that the entire Judaeo-Christian/Islamic mythology owes a HUGE debt to Zoroastrianism. Hence, it does have much influence, at least in the real world, if not in the blindered world of Shadowrun.

Exactly... Well stated... I never approached it from this angle, but it is very appropriate... There are a LOT of Real World religions that are useable for Shadowrun and it's magical traditions, and showcasing those few found in Street Magic exposes others to their existence...

So... When can we expect another Sourcebook showcasing a few dozen more? Using the current format of course.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 5 2009, 04:42 PM

Voodoo's special place in Shadowrun is pretty much owed to it being a favorite tradition of Steve Kenson's. He worked it in wherever he could (as writers--including me--will often do with their favorite topics).

Posted by: Cain Apr 5 2009, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 09:32 AM)

This statement is exactly why the current format is better. At least people get to hear of Zoroastrianism, and wonder,"What is it?"

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 5 2009, 05:02 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:19 PM)

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:54 PM)

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook.

So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 5 2009, 06:56 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 5 2009, 10:02 AM)

Not really. You've given us a sentence on Ryobu-Shinto there, and I still know nothing about what followers of Ryobu-Shinto actually believe. I don't feel at all enthused to create a Ryobu-Shinto tradition magician from your description, despite liking both Shinto and Buddhism as possible magician paradigms. If you feel that you've not given a good showing of the two-sentence style you advocate, I invite you to do your best to demonstrate its worth. Be sure to provide a Ryobu-Shinto entry.

In order to get people out of the "Shamanism or Hermeticism" shell, you need to provide material that captures the imagination of the reader. A sentence by itself doesn't provide enough information to do that. At the same time, the writers have to pay attention to the space budget. The balance struck in Street Magic is good.

So many people go out of their way to find out about subjects they don't even know exist.

Exactly, Which is one of the things I like about Roleplaying games... They are a great learning tool... If you take advantage of the opportunities that they represent...

Posted by: Tyro Apr 5 2009, 08:54 PM

Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?

That seems to happen a lot :-/

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 5 2009, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 5 2009, 03:54 PM)

Has anyone else noticed that it's basically everyone vs. Cain on this topic?

I actually hold no position on this argument. The only other "vs. Cain" topic I recall was about if SR4A was "good" or not, and there I think I was sided with Cain on several points.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 5 2009, 09:11 PM

Something about Cain makes people disagree with him, even if he is right. Don't ask why, just search for Mr. Lucky, and look for closed threads that are still smoldering.

Posted by: kzt Apr 5 2009, 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 4 2009, 11:03 PM)

Personally, I'd like to see them approached again in setting-focused material. For instance, reading the Hong Kong setting material will give you some more background for the Wuxing tradition (which makes sense, because it's a more common tradition there). It'd be nice if there were more information on Western Hermeticism and Native American Shamanism in future material about the Seattle setting, for example.

I really wish the developers would be willing to throw out entire chapters of the base book and replace them in expansions. I hate having to look between two different books to figure out how a mechanic works. Plus they can FIX broken mechanics instead of trying to paper over them.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 5 2009, 09:37 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 09:54 AM)

This is Shadowrun, not World Religions 101. If I wanted an overview on Zorastrianism, I'd go to my local library. If I want a playable magical tradition and its place in the 6th world, I'd go to a Shadowrun sourcebook. In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

There is more to Shadowrun than Seattle, more to Shadowrun than Voudun/Hermeticism/Shamanism, more to Shadowrun than the limited perspective of personal interests of the (admittedly very creative and muchly appreciated) original developers, or to be more accurate, the perspective of same that players have chosen to focus on, ignoring the possibilities. Not all of us choose to limit ourselves and our game play. Some of us would like to branch out, particularly since the game has been around for twenty years now, and the set pieces like Seattle are becoming somewhat boring.

If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 5 2009, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 5 2009, 01:37 PM)

If one wishes to be limited and focussed on the same-old-same-old, let him remain behind.

Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax

Posted by: TheForgotten Apr 5 2009, 09:59 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 2 2009, 03:32 AM)

Yeah, it's flavor. Yes, the new system is very flexible and allows for more real-world traditions to be brought into Shadowrun. The problem is, there's so much emphasis on the new system, there's almost no description. Hermeticism and Shamanism get about four paragraphs of flavor each in the BBB. Of all the new traditions, they get maybe two. Fewer traditions, with richer descriptions, would have been a lot better.

Suggest if you feel that way the best thing to do is to start lobbying for the big book of traditions, which will give each a couple of pages, present a couple unique edges for each and some new metamagic techniques.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 5 2009, 10:29 PM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 5 2009, 04:47 PM)

Just because one is limited and focused does not mean it has to be "same-old-same-old". I thought it was a pretty good post till the implication that focus put you behind. Focus and strength, in this case degree of intensity and effectiveness, can get you ahead and set you apart from the pack.

BlueMax

He didn't say limited and focused in general. He said limited to and focused on the same old stuff, specifically. Which is pretty much what Cain is arguing for -- "Voodoo is more important in the world of Shadowrun (or at least in North America), so screw all the other new traditions that don't hold as much historical weight because the old system of requiring each tradition to have its own separate mechanics prevented anyone from following them, thus preventing them from having any significance in the world of Shadowrun. Self-Fulfilling Prophecies are the shiznit, yo!"

Posted by: Dream79 Apr 5 2009, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 04:19 PM)

But even with the overviews being what they are, there's a lot missing from them. For example, real-world Shinto is frequently mixed with Buddhism, creating what's known as Ryobu-Shinto. A sentence or two on that would enable people to create their own Ryobu-Shinto tradition.

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 5 2009, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 03:44 PM)

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.

Posted by: Dream79 Apr 5 2009, 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 5 2009, 10:50 PM)

I love being on a forum with interesting and informed people ^_^

I learn so much!

[Edit:] No, that was not sarcasm. I really do mean it.

Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 5 2009, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 03:55 PM)

Eh, I figure everybody knows something, though I'll agree that the discussions in dumpshock have no peer.

None that I've seen ^_^

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 5 2009, 11:57 PM

QUOTE (Dream79 @ Apr 5 2009, 05:44 PM)

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

And Shingon is a Japanese branch of Vajrayana Buddhism, which itself is the branch of Buddhism that the Buddhist tradition in Street Magic is based on. So it's likely that functionally it would follow the Buddhist tradition.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 6 2009, 12:24 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 4 2009, 09:28 PM)

And, regardless, forcing every tradition to have attached Wikipedia article clusters, like you propose, would mean we'd either have far fewer traditions, or a book with nothing BUT traditions.

Of course, he's saying he'd rather just stick to the core traditions. Unfortunately that would mean cutting something that SR4 has done, and DE has said is fairly popular, a bunch of ready-to-go stats for traditions outside the big 2. His preference basically comes down to his lack of priority for that. *shrug*

Well that and, I suspect, his preference for being a grumpy naysayer and his desire to see everything in SR canon fleshed out to the nth degree.

Both disturbingly common in long time SR fans at Dumpshock.

Posted by: Cain Apr 6 2009, 12:56 AM

QUOTE

To be honest I'm not sure Ryobu-Shinto would constitute a separate tradition since it's really more of the view that shinto kami are incarnations of buddhisattvas. A Ryobu-shinto that might have tradition of there own would be shugendo (yamabushi) for instance, though for mystic purpose it's heavily based on the esoteric buddhism of the Shingon and Tendai sects.

These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 6 2009, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 05:56 PM)

These two sentences would be a good addition to the Shinto section of SM. Trim out the traditions no one will use, and add more word count to those that have an impact on the 6th world.

Really, if I had my way, things would look like this:

One full page each in the BBB on Hermeticism and Shamanism. Plus art.

Half a page (or more) on fewer traditions in SM.

A complete walkthrough on how to build a tradition (similar to what we already have).

Note that SM is closer to what I'm hoping for; it's the really weak descriptions in the BBB that irk me.

If you did that, you would probably cut some of my favorites, like Zoroastrianism. I like it as is.

I agree that the BBB is pretty weak on the subject, but they knew they would be releasing street magic. They should have given a bit more space to shamanism and hermeticism, I agree.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 6 2009, 10:18 AM

Talked with my GM yesterday about this.
His point was exactly as Cain said, that some of the minor traditions could be thrown out of the window or added in things like the Digital Grimoire but there should be a little bit more structure about the more prominent Traditions, like general customs, holy days, a description of the history and the "how the Tradition exists now" and relations to other traditions.
I think it is a valid point. But it it can't be resolved until somebody invents a timemachine. But maybe there is some place in a future publication for exactly that? A big Book of Shadowrun Hermeticism like those nifty chapters in the SOTA Books? Or as a free download/webpage presentation?

Posted by: darthmord Apr 6 2009, 11:57 AM

If the published products are so lacking in the opinions of many people on this thread, why don't we see about starting up a section of DumpShock that is nothing but fan creations?

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 6 2009, 11:57 AM

The tradition write-ups in the core book are pretty weak. I'm totally with you there. I'm not sure who wrote those; I can only guess they tried to keep them vague because it's a core book and they wanted people to be able to just play with the core book and some very vanilla Hermeticism and Shamanism if they had to. I mean, if you just pick up the core book and never pick up Street Magic, you can technically take that Hermetic tradition and the Shamanic tradition and apply it to anything, because they are so openly defined.

Aside from the possibility of a big book of traditions (which I really doubt will ever happen), I think those kinds of details are best handled in setting material, especially the sprawl books. Especially since some of those traditions will have different practices in different areas. Japanese Shingon magicians will have different holy days and customs than a Tibetan monk, even though mechanically they probably use the same tradition. Similarly, a Hermetic in Seattle won't be exactly the same as a Hermetic in Cairo.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 6 2009, 12:29 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 5 2009, 07:54 PM)

In the world of Shadowrun, Voodoo is of much more importance, holds a more prominent niche, and deserves more word count.

Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.

Posted by: ornot Apr 6 2009, 12:35 PM

In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.

Posted by: Blade Apr 6 2009, 01:09 PM

It's not hard to find a lot of information for the traditions that already exist (or existed).
I prefer to have the space used for things specific to Shadowrun rather than for things I can easily find elsewhere.

Posted by: Cain Apr 6 2009, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Mäx @ Apr 6 2009, 05:29 AM)

Umm... why is voodoo so importand in SR world.

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 6 2009, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (ornot @ Apr 6 2009, 05:35 AM)

In my experience players usually ignore the traditions listed in the book, and write their own. I don't think that this suggests the core traditions or the extra ones in SM are poorly written, inadequately fluffed or anything like that, but that the new system is astoundingly easy to adjust and personalise. Including the variety they have makes it easy to create new traditions, which having only Shamanism, Hermeticism and Voodoo would not. I also disagree that Voodoo should be considered a major Tradition, alongside the Big Two which have always been the options available. Voodoo does not, in my view, fill a unique niche unoccupied by Shamanism and Hermeticism, any more than Wicca or Druidism might.

I do agree that one problem with the new system is that it does make traditions blend a bit too much. My solution to this is a minor houserule (I know, I'm a houserule fiend) whereby each Tradition has a specific geas integral to it. It might be Incantation, or Prayer, or in the case of the Summer Dress tradition, a requirement to wear and look hot in a summer dress. I should specify that this geas is non-optional, and provides no BP return. Other than that it should follow all the usual rules for Geases.

The plural of geas is geasa. Pronounced "GUESS-ahh", "GEYS-ahh", or "gay-AHS-ahh".

Gaelic is strange O.o

Posted by: Zurai Apr 6 2009, 08:53 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 04:32 PM)

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 6 2009, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 03:53 PM)

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

But in the real world all magic is voodoo. Voodoo is very popular (dolls and pins, that whole thing). So it's no surprise that when "Surprise! Magic is real!" happens a lot of people fall into the cultural understanding that they have and "practice voodoo" because "that's how they did it in the movies."

Posted by: Zurai Apr 6 2009, 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Draco18s @ Apr 6 2009, 04:59 PM)

Voodoo is very popular (dolls and pins, that whole thing).

Voodoo dolls aren't Voodoo. They're Hollywood.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 6 2009, 11:09 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 03:32 PM)

There's a lot of material and storylines surrounding it. While there's not a single Zorastrian story in the novels or the fluff, Voodoo appears in a lot of places. Heck, it even gets a storyline stemming from Dunkelzahn's will.

All written by the same freelancer, though, as I mentioned above. There was no behind-the-scenes decision about the significance of Voudoun, it was just a particular writer's favorite. Much like when I worked Tibet into a number of the things I wrote or when Peter worked in the Vatican.

What ends up being significant in Fourth Edition will largely depend on the signature sprawl settings and the plot lines. Though Umbanda, an Afro-Brazilian variant of Voudoun, did play a role in Ghost Cartels. Not because of Voudoun's past significance, but because it just worked for the plot.

Posted by: Cain Apr 7 2009, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 01:53 PM)

I'd still wager that Zoroastrianism has far, far, far more historical relevance in Shadowrun than Voodoo does. Mainly because it's got vast historical relevance in the real world before the SR divergence, whereas Voodoo doesn't, and still isn't a major player in SR.

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2009, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 06:16 PM)

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

I would argue that that is because the focus of SR up to this edition has mostly been concentrated on North America (mostly)... with SR4/SR4a, we now have a more global outlook... I would bet that Voudon has little to no effect in Hong Kong or Japan, or even Russia for that mattter... as such, it would be worthwhile to have a more global outlook on magical traditions, rather than concentrating on a small section of the world...

My two cents

Posted by: Zurai Apr 7 2009, 02:09 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 09:16 PM)

Voodoo nearly caused an all-out war in the Carib League, and dragged Aztlan and the Yucatan into it. So, despite the fact that you personally like Zorastrianism, it didn't have nearly the impact that Voodoo did.

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2009, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 07:09 PM)

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

Well Said...

Posted by: Cain Apr 7 2009, 02:21 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 07:09 PM)

Actually, I'm not particularly fond of Zoroastrianism. I only defend it because you keep attacking it, and I only mentioned it at first because it was the religion I was LEAST familiar with. However, no, "almost causing a war" isn't nearly approaching the vast importance of Zoroastrianism in the real world. Without Zoroaster, no current religion would likely be anything remotely similar to what we know now. It was the original monotheism and many of the religious practices common to almost every modern religion, both eastern and western, stem from it.

We're not discussing the real world, we're discussing the Sixth world, where Voodoo wars nearly caused a meltdown across the entire Carib League and much of South America. As for real-world Zorastrianism, you vastly overstate the influence it had on Judeo-Christian and Islamic thought. I'd love to see how you argue that Soka-Gakkai Buddhism was influenced by Zoraster.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 7 2009, 02:22 AM

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

To be honest, regardless of which traditions may have been highlighted in past editions, no one (not even the writers or devs) know which ones will end up being emphasized in Fourth Edition storylines.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 7 2009, 02:26 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 10:21 PM)

We're not discussing the real world, we're discussing the Sixth world

Which includes 100% of the real world's history up to the 1980's or 90's, including 100% of the history of the Zoroastrian religion. It's also not a dead religion, as you claimed earlier; it's a minority religion for sure, but still practiced in several places in the world, with the largest concentrations being in India and the US.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 7 2009, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 6 2009, 07:22 PM)

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

To be honest, regardless of which traditions may have been highlighted in past editions, no one (not even the writers or devs) know which ones will end up being emphasized in Fourth Edition storylines.

As it should be...

Posted by: Cain Apr 7 2009, 04:24 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 6 2009, 07:26 PM)

Which includes 100% of the real world's history up to the 1980's or 90's, including 100% of the history of the Zoroastrian religion. It's also not a dead religion, as you claimed earlier; it's a minority religion for sure, but still practiced in several places in the world, with the largest concentrations being in India and the US.

Minus about 5000 years of Earthdawn history, of course. And whatever happened in the second world, and however long that took.

For the record, I never said Zorastrianism was dead, although you are correct that it's an extreme minority. And while its philosophy was influential, so's Buddhism. Buddhism deserved several more paragraphs, at least visiting some of the other esoteric sects. Personally, I would have loved to see more on Ryobu-Shinto, although I agree that it's not significant enough to warrant its own writeup. So, I'm happy to see its wordcount go to more significant traditions. I just think they should have gone farther.

I also stand firmly by the point that Hermeticism and Shamanism deserved a full-page revisit in SM.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 7 2009, 06:34 AM

QUOTE

Personally, I would have loved to see more on Ryobu-Shinto, although I agree that it's not significant enough to warrant its own writeup.

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 7 2009, 04:57 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 6 2009, 06:16 PM)

And while most of the Voodoo appearances are due to one freelancer, he's a very famous and prolific one. Voodoo has had a major role in the Sixth World, while Zoratrianism (and many of the other traditions) have had little to no effect at all.

In the small corner of the world upon which you choose to focus, this may be true. After 20 years, Shadowrun is increasingly widening its perspective, and poking into corners of the world in which nasties and beneficents have been around for millennia before the Christian roots of Voudoun, which Christian roots are themselves derivative of Zoroastrian archetypes.

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 6 2009, 11:34 PM)

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

?Because it is too much work to do it oneself, and it is more fun to snipe at those who facilitate such personal research?

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 7 2009, 05:10 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 7 2009, 09:57 AM)

In the small corner of the world upon which you choose to focus, this may be true. After 20 years, Shadowrun is increasingly widening its perspective, and poking into corners of the world in which nasties and beneficents have been around for millennia before the Christian roots of Voudoun, which Christian roots are themselves derivative of Zoroastrian archetypes.

Its not only widening its perspective, its rewriting itself. The unifying of magic is a part of that rewrite.
The above statement is not an attack. People need to accept that Shadowrun 4th ed is not Shadowrun 1st or 2nd. The game that was once focused on the "New World" after the birth of a New World, is now about the entire planet. Part of expanding that view was GURPS-ifying magic. After 3 years, I have just come to accept the mechanical changes as a necessity of Marketing to the entire world.

There is no way we are ever going to see a Shaman Archetype in leathers or have a "Tribesman" archetype finish out the main books again. Complicated, and delicious, mechanics are a thing of the past. If you want that, play Second Edition. Tom Dowd's era was a fine era.

Posted by: The Mack Apr 7 2009, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 7 2009, 11:22 AM)

I think this discussion is getting a bit distracted. It's really not about "such-and-such tradition is more important than another." The diversity of traditions in Street Magic represents two aims of Fourth Edition. The first being streamlined mechanics that are more modular; which makes presenting many more traditions more feasible than it used to be. The second being a more global setting approach, even though that global perspective is focused on particular signature sprawls.

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 7 2009, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (The Mack @ Apr 7 2009, 01:17 PM)

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

I'm thinking about that, but I can't think of a way to present symbolic and meaningful links between spirits and spell categories without talking about a specific tradition. Because really a spirit type can be linked with any spell category, depending on what makes sense for a tradition's belief system. Similarly, talking about what kind of traditions utilize certain types of spirits sounds to me like basically talking about different traditions.

Posted by: Zaranthan Apr 7 2009, 05:36 PM

QUOTE (The Mack @ Apr 7 2009, 12:17 PM)

As part of that modular aspect, I think rather than just presenting a bunch of different traditions it would have been cool to have some guidelines for choices.

For example, some symbolic or meaningful links between spirts and their connections to different spell categories. Or even what kind of traditions would utilize certain types of spirits.

Just a thought.

This I can get behind. The rules for designing a new tradition are missing one major piece of information: WHY the spirits in the example traditions were chosen. Why are spirits of Man assigned to health for one tradition but manipulation for another? Why does a tradition have Beast spirits instead of the Fire spirits used in a similar tradition?

The idea of the tradition viewing various elements in particular context makes sense from the fully constructed standpoint, but how did you get there in the first place?

Posted by: The Mack Apr 7 2009, 05:50 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 8 2009, 02:28 AM)

I'm thinking about that, but I can't think of a way to present symbolic and meaningful links between spirits and spell categories without talking about a specific tradition. Because really a spirit type can be linked with any spell category, depending on what makes sense for a tradition's belief system. Similarly, talking about what kind of traditions utilize certain types of spirits sounds to me like basically talking about different traditions.

Well one thing that could work might be to take each Spirit separately and just give a list of common associations.

The associations themselves don't have to be thematic or coherent throughout the list either.

Example

Fire is often associated with: chaos, war, destruction, passion, love, hate, determination, purification.

Or something to help define Fire's place in a tradition.

QUOTE (Zaranthan)

WHY the spirits in the example traditions were chosen. Why are spirits of Man assigned to health for one tradition but manipulation for another? Why does a tradition have Beast spirits instead of the Fire spirits used in a similar tradition?

Yeah, that would have been very cool.

A small rundown on why those associations are made for each particular tradition could give player's ideas when creating their own.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 7 2009, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 7 2009, 01:10 PM)

Its not only widening its perspective, its rewriting itself. The unifying of magic is a part of that rewrite.
The above statement is not an attack. People need to accept that Shadowrun 4th ed is not Shadowrun 1st or 2nd.

Actually, if you'd read what Demonseed has written in this thread, magic has ALWAYS been universal in the fluff. It's only the mechanics that have insisted on making magic arbitrarily different in each previous edition.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 7 2009, 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 7 2009, 12:45 PM)

Actually, if you'd read what Demonseed has written in this thread, magic has ALWAYS been universal in the fluff. It's only the mechanics that have insisted on making magic arbitrarily different in each previous edition.

It depends on what you mean by "Magic is Universal".
Magic as a force, yes. The fluff has always been big on magic as a field.
Magic in use, no. The fluff had attacks on Shamanism as a "weaker" form one where the practitioner needed a crutch. The fluff knew they were differnt.

Different forms , different mechanics, same fluff. None of that is exclusive and since its about fluff, its not relevant.

I don't think magic was "arbitrarily different" between the two in previous editions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrariness
Are you sure you wanted to use arbitrary?

I thought the earlier editions were fantastic and written carefully. Not comparing them to Fourth but stating they were fantastic in their own right. So much so, they may have spawned a long time following.

Posted by: Cain Apr 8 2009, 12:13 AM

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 6 2009, 11:34 PM)

[nonsarcastic, curious]What hinders you to go dive into the vast space of information called internet and dig something up to flesh it out for Shadowrun?

Who's to say I haven't? I'm playing a Ryobu-Shinto Miko right now.

The point is, the book traditions are supposed to be more fleshed out. SM did an okay job, the BBB did a sucky one. But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 8 2009, 12:56 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 7 2009, 07:13 PM)

But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

Unless, of course, you want to play one of the traditions that got dropped.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 02:31 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 7 2009, 06:13 PM)

Who's to say I haven't? I'm playing a Ryobu-Shinto Miko right now.

The point is, the book traditions are supposed to be more fleshed out. SM did an okay job, the BBB did a sucky one. But fewer traditions with more information would have been more useful.

In My View... The BBB Traditions are VERY generic, while the Street Magic Traditions are a bit more focused... For even more focus, you will have to take the format introduced in Street Magic, do the research, and apply that knowledge to the given format...

Viola, A NEW Tradition...
Looks like you have already done that in the case of your Miko...
By the same token, I did it for Necromancy...

The way in which it was approached lends itself to unlimited customization, if you are willing to do the work...

I think that this was the design intention provided in Street Magic... Give a few examples and then allow your players to go wild... Would it have been nice to get a little more guidance, Sure... But we have what we have... we should use that to the best of our ability rather than complain that we got "take-out" instead of "Gourmet"

My Two Cents

Posted by: Cain Apr 8 2009, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 7 2009, 05:56 PM)

Unless, of course, you want to play one of the traditions that got dropped.

Then you use the rules to invent your own. If you have guidance in creating traditions (by putting more detail into the ones you get) then it should be a breeze.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 8 2009, 05:42 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 8 2009, 12:48 AM)

Then you use the rules to invent your own. If you have guidance in creating traditions (by putting more detail into the ones you get) then it should be a breeze.

That street goes both ways.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 8 2009, 09:13 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 8 2009, 07:42 AM)

That street goes both ways.

Yes it does. But, i think i go with Cain from now on. Changed my mind. Less Traditions with those that are there more wordcount but with the option to expand the scope in future books like Digital Grimoire would have been a better way. Or some smaller write ups about the traditions like MitS did. Or expanding local traditions in the Location books where they are important.
I acknowledge that the way it was done is okay, not ideal for everyone, but okay. I can live with it and i can work good with it. In the aftermath, everyone can whine about something and it's hard work to please everyone.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 8 2009, 09:16 AM

Doublepost!

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 8 2009, 09:18 AM

Ultrapost!

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 8 2009, 10:55 AM

M-M-M-Monsterpost!

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 11:14 AM

M-M-MULTIPOST!

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 11:32 AM

M-M-MULTIPOST!

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 8 2009, 11:37 AM

Yeah, the topic of few traditions versus more has basically reached its end. Cain has his preference, I have mine, Zurai has his, etc. Any way you cut it, a player who wants to detail his magical tradition in depth will have to do some work, whether he's using a tradition from the book or a custom-created one. But it was never the design intention to eliminate player research. Hell, I love player research.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 8 2009, 11:39 AM

Yeah, the topic of few traditions versus more has basically reached its end. Cain has his preference, I have mine, Zurai has his, etc. Any way you cut it, a player who wants to detail his magical tradition in depth will have to do some work, whether he's using a tradition from the book or a custom-created one. But it was never the design intention to eliminate player research. Hell, I love player resea♦rch.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 8 2009, 11:52 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 8 2009, 01:42 AM)

That street goes both ways.

I think what he is driving at is the core book should provide concrete examples with detail while the source books give additional options / rules to add to what the core book offers.

If that is in fact his point, I would agree with it. The BBB should contain everything needed to play and be sufficiently detailed to answer questions. The source books would provide additional resources and options.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 8 2009, 11:54 AM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 8 2009, 01:42 AM)

That street goes both ways.

I think what he is driving at is the core book should provide concrete examples with detail while the source books give additional options / rules to add to what the core book offers.

If that is in fact his point, I would agree with it. The BBB should contain everything needed to play and be sufficiently detailed to answer questions. The source books would provide additional resources and options.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 8 2009, 05:48 AM)

Then you use the rules to invent your own. If you have guidance in creating traditions (by putting more detail into the ones you get) then it should be a breeze.

And how are you meant to know that the tradition even exists? You've been avoiding this question. The tradition writeups in Street Magic are the first introduction a lot of players have to many of the traditions. You can't search for information you don't even know exists. There is no big list of knowledge you don't possess, and people don't look for things until they have a pressing need.

Their pressing need is created by the fact that they read the short writeup and say "this tradition is cool beyond belief, I need to learn more to make my character truly awesome". Two sentences cannot do that (or else, you've failed to prove that it can, still waiting on your 2 sentence Ryobu-Shinto writeup that'll drop my jaw), and you lose out if that awesome tradition isn't covered by your smaller selection. Birdshot is more likely to hit the bullseye than buckshot, and we only care about hitting the bullseye (which is only painted on after we finish shooting).

Posted by: Cain Apr 8 2009, 05:29 PM

QUOTE

And how are you meant to know that the tradition even exists?

You invent them. That's the strength of the SR4 system, it's designed to invent traditions. The ones presented should show the building process, instead of just a two-paragraph overview.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 8 2009, 06:29 PM)

You invent them. That's the strength of the SR4 system, it's designed to invent traditions. The ones presented should show the building process, instead of just a two-paragraph overview.

Let me rephrase.

"How do you know the source material you use to create a tradition exists?" Surprisingly, not everyone knows about Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, etc, etc. If you don't know these things exist, you've got nothing to search for.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Apr 8 2009, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 8 2009, 01:03 PM)

Let me rephrase.

"How do you know the source material you use to create a tradition exists?" Surprisingly, not everyone knows about Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, etc, etc. If you don't know these things exist, you've got nothing to search for.

What, you just want a list of all the religions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Although I wonder why one would have a need for religions in their game that they'd never even heard of.
Maybe i don't understand the question.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 8 2009, 07:17 PM

We're not talking about knowledge-obsessives like myself. We're talking about normal people - who won't ever look these things up for themselves because they seriously don't want to learn things that have no bearing on their normal life. Yes, you are an oddity, a rarity, for learning things beyond the bare minimum you can get away with. Don't make the assumption that other people are like you.

They don't look up lists of religions that they don't follow, because they're not in the market for a new religion. They don't want to know. Unless you expose them to religions they can use as a tradition, they will never discover them. Same goes for hedge magic and chaos magic. Without a wide variety of tradition writeups they will just trump for playing a Hermetic or Shaman again. They might be happier playing a Shinto kanmushi, but under Cain's proposition there's a fence between them and Shinto they don't care to hop.

My argument against Cain's two sentence writeup idea is that you can't get a full feel for a tradition in two sentences. He's yet to indicate that he finds the sentences I picked out of his previous posts about Ryobu-Shinto an unsatisfactory example of the worth of the style. I was completely unenthusiastic about the tradition on the basis of those sentences, since I knew basically nothing about the tradition. Meanwhile, a number of the writeups in SM piqued my interest and I can see myself doing research if, in future, I decided to play a magician or adept.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 11:48 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 8 2009, 04:39 AM)

Yeah, the topic of few traditions versus more has basically reached its end. Cain has his preference, I have mine, Zurai has his, etc. Any way you cut it, a player who wants to detail his magical tradition in depth will have to do some work, whether he's using a tradition from the book or a custom-created one. But it was never the design intention to eliminate player research. Hell, I love player resea♦rch.

Research is what keeps it fresh... I too Love that particular aspect of creating custom traditions...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 11:50 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 8 2009, 04:58 AM)

And how are you meant to know that the tradition even exists? You've been avoiding this question. The tradition writeups in Street Magic are the first introduction a lot of players have to many of the traditions. You can't search for information you don't even know exists. There is no big list of knowledge you don't possess, and people don't look for things until they have a pressing need.

You could always search the internet (Google is good, as is Yahoo) for "Religion" or "Magic", you will get a very large number of hits for each... Pick and choose from there...

Design as you see fit... Viola, New Traditions

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 11:53 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 8 2009, 12:17 PM)

We're not talking about knowledge-obsessives like myself. We're talking about normal people - who won't ever look these things up for themselves because they seriously don't want to learn things that have no bearing on their normal life. Yes, you are an oddity, a rarity, for learning things beyond the bare minimum you can get away with. Don't make the assumption that other people are like you.

They don't look up lists of religions that they don't follow, because they're not in the market for a new religion. They don't want to know. Unless you expose them to religions they can use as a tradition, they will never discover them. Same goes for hedge magic and chaos magic. Without a wide variety of tradition writeups they will just trump for playing a Hermetic or Shaman again. They might be happier playing a Shinto kanmushi, but under Cain's proposition there's a fence between them and Shinto they don't care to hop.

I would say that these individuals are not the ones that are interested in creating their own traditions in the long run anyway, so it does not really matter for them does it?

Of course, if they really WERE truly interested, they could do the research themselves, or ask someone else to do so...

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 9 2009, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 9 2009, 12:53 AM)

I would say that these individuals are not the ones that are interested in creating their own traditions in the long run anyway, so it does not really matter for them does it?

Of course, if they really WERE truly interested, they could do the research themselves, or ask someone else to do so...

So providing them with more traditions maximises their utility from the product, since at least one is going to hit the nail nearly straight on for them. Unlike us, who are willing to do research and therefore don't need exceedingly long writeups.

Posted by: Cain Apr 9 2009, 06:46 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 9 2009, 02:54 AM)

So providing them with more traditions maximises their utility from the product, since at least one is going to hit the nail nearly straight on for them. Unlike us, who are willing to do research and therefore don't need exceedingly long writeups.

Actually, it's the opposite. The more you write on a tradition, the more likely you are to set someone's imagination on fire. Information junkies with a lot of imagination were probably developing their own traditions long before SM came out. The writeups are for those without; and in that case, the more detailed, the better.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 03:13 AM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 9 2009, 02:54 AM)

So providing them with more traditions maximises their utility from the product, since at least one is going to hit the nail nearly straight on for them. Unlike us, who are willing to do research and therefore don't need exceedingly long writeups.

Exactly...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 03:17 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 9 2009, 11:46 AM)

Actually, it's the opposite. The more you write on a tradition, the more likely you are to set someone's imagination on fire. Information junkies with a lot of imagination were probably developing their own traditions long before SM came out. The writeups are for those without; and in that case, the more detailed, the better.

Yes and No...

Some writeup is good to fire the imagination, too much information given as Cannon will tend to suppress the imagination, as you now have no room to maneuver if you disagree with what is written...

Excessive information is for those who do not want to go through the effort of creating their own information... and in this regard, yes, the more information the better...

However, for those who like to add their own flair, a smaller writeup is infinitely better as there will be less information that will need to be altered to fit the ideas that you may have discovered because of a single paragraph with minimal information.

Neither approaches is wrong, but with a limited word count, the developers decided that it would be better to provide many smaller writeups than a few detailed writeups...

Works for me...

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 10 2009, 03:59 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 9 2009, 07:46 PM)

Actually, it's the opposite. The more you write on a tradition, the more likely you are to set someone's imagination on fire. Information junkies with a lot of imagination were probably developing their own traditions long before SM came out. The writeups are for those without; and in that case, the more detailed, the better.

Rifle in the dark. A powerful shot, but if you don't hit then it's completely worthless. I'd rather take birdshot and be assured of hitting near the bullseye.

I also agree with the point that too much information becomes not a road, but a rail.

Posted by: Cain Apr 10 2009, 05:46 AM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 9 2009, 07:59 PM)

Rifle in the dark. A powerful shot, but if you don't hit then it's completely worthless. I'd rather take birdshot and be assured of hitting near the bullseye.

Imagination is a curious thing. Reading a detailed writeup on one thing might light your imagination on fire for another. And the rules do support tradition creation, so who knows what might result?

Posted by: Neraph Apr 10 2009, 06:37 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 4 2009, 05:13 PM)

Dogma, Rituals, Beliefs that have been formed over the last several thousand years...

...All two of them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2009, 06:39 PM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 9 2009, 11:37 PM)

...All two of them.

I would say more than two...

The roots of Ancient Paganism and Necromancy, for example, date to before the birth of Christ...

Just two among many...

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 12 2009, 07:53 PM

Not to forget the thousand offshots of said paganism christianity borrowd rigourosly it's holy days from. Then you have greek Mysticism, the Egyptian Pantheon and whatnot. And that's only some of the beliefs that originated in middle east/europe/north africa. Just imagine what happened in India, Japan and the Americas.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2009, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Apr 12 2009, 12:53 PM)

Not to forget the thousand offshots of said paganism christianity borrowd rigourosly it's holy days from. Then you have greek Mysticism, the Egyptian Pantheon and whatnot. And that's only some of the beliefs that originated in middle east/europe/north africa. Just imagine what happened in India, Japan and the Americas.

No Doubt...

Posted by: Tyro Apr 13 2009, 02:57 AM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 9 2009, 11:37 PM)

...All two of them.

Excuse me?!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 13 2009, 03:16 AM

QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 12 2009, 07:57 PM)

Excuse me?!

He just is unaware of the VAST number of possible religions and magical traditions that could originate from before the advent of Chrisianity would be my guess...

Especially in the Asiatic and Egyptian Provinces where civilization has been prevelant for some 5,000 years or more...

Every body gotta learn sometime though...

Posted by: Tyro Apr 13 2009, 03:29 AM

I guess I'm just used to comparative religions (as opposed to bible study).

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 13 2009, 05:22 AM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 9 2009, 11:37 PM)

...All two of them.

QUOTE (Tyro @ Apr 12 2009, 07:57 PM)

Excuse me?!

You know, the right one and the wrong one.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 13 2009, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 12 2009, 10:22 PM)

You know, the right one and the wrong one.

Posted by: Neraph Apr 13 2009, 11:12 PM

People people..

Evidently you people forget what you post, and what context it's in. I was not saying there were only two religions. I was not saying the world was only two thousand years old.

QUOTE

What is the intrinsic difference between the mainstream Christian religions?... They have mostly the same beliefs, and yet, they are COMPLETELY different. Dogma, Rituals, Beliefs that have been formed over the last several thousand years... all from a very basic core concept...

I was saying all two thousand years of Christianity.

It's nice to know that both of you hate me so much though.

Oh, and Tyro, you can't compare any religion to Christianity unless you actually look at the Bible. So Bible study would be part of a "comparative" study of Christianity.

QUOTE

Not to forget the thousand offshots of said paganism christianity borrowd rigourosly it's holy days from. Then you have greek Mysticism, the Egyptian Pantheon and whatnot. And that's only some of the beliefs that originated in middle east/europe/north africa. Just imagine what happened in India, Japan and the Americas.

That's really interesting, seeing as Jesus Christ was actually crucified on the Passover, and the Passover was near the celebration of the goddess Eoster (or something like that). Not taken from that celebration, just near it.

L34RN 2 R34S34RC|-|

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 14 2009, 12:04 AM

Now, now, Neraph, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to. I was running with the play, that's all. I dislike those little smileys, but I dislike even more the propensity for emailing/blogging to be misunderstood. I'll try to use smileys more consistently to try to point out innocent humour.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 14 2009, 12:28 AM

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 12 2009, 11:22 PM)

You know, the right one and the wrong one.

Touche

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 14 2009, 12:33 AM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 13 2009, 05:12 PM)

People people..

Evidently you people forget what you post, and what context it's in. I was not saying there were only two religions. I was not saying the world was only two thousand years old.

I was saying all two thousand years of Christianity.

It's nice to know that both of you hate me so much though.

Oh, and Tyro, you can't compare any religion to Christianity unless you actually look at the Bible. So Bible study would be part of a "comparative" study of Christianity.

That's really interesting, seeing as Jesus Christ was actually crucified on the Passover, and the Passover was near the celebration of the goddess Eoster (or something like that). Not taken from that celebration, just near it.

L34RN 2 R34S34RC|-|

Not to nitpick here or anything but...

A fair number, if not a majority, of the Holy Days in Christianity are (forgive me) bastardizations of pagan holidays... Yule and the Birth of Christ being one that immediately comes to mind... there are others of course...

This was done to make the new emerging religion of Christianity more palatable to those who had been practicing pagans up tpo that time... by using "pagan" holidays as the root for Christian Holidays, the early church was able to bring familiarity to the new religion. Conversions were therefore MUCH easier.

My Two Cents...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 14 2009, 12:37 AM

QUOTE (Neraph @ Apr 13 2009, 05:12 PM)

People people..

I was saying all two thousand years of Christianity.

It's nice to know that both of you hate me so much though.

And Neraph... Not hate intended or implied...

I just wante to make myself a little more clear on the intent of the previous posts... Which was that there were a myriad number of religions that are MUCH older than Christianity/Islam/Jewish Faith...

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Apr 14 2009, 07:25 PM

Also, Neraph, your reply of "All two of them" to the text you quoted heavily implied that there were 2 "dogmas, rituals and and beliefs", not that it was only 2 thousand years. Obviously a number of people interpreted it this way. I'm glad you clarified it to show you meant the last half of the statement, rather than the first half. Given the volatility of religious discussions, I'd simply offer a sliver of advice to be more specific when making corrections in the future. Prevents all the flare ups you saw.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 14 2009, 09:54 PM

QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Apr 14 2009, 03:25 PM)

Also, Neraph, your reply of "All two of them" to the text you quoted heavily implied that there were 2 "dogmas, rituals and and beliefs", not that it was only 2 thousand years. Obviously a number of people interpreted it this way.

Yep. It is, in fact, the correct way to interpret such a construct. The phrase "dogmas, rituals, and beliefs" was the subject of the sentence, and, without any other guidance in the form of context or determiners (of which there were none in Neraph's post), it is assumed that the pronoun refers to the subject of a previous sentence.

This is especially true when the sentence or phrase containing the pronoun directly contradicts what it was actually referring to. "All two of them [thousand years]" directly contradicts the phrase it was referring to, "over the last several thousand years", as "two" is not a valid number within "several" (indeed, the very first definition at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/several defines it as "more than two") -- yet Neraph's post contained neither context for nor support of the contradiction.

This left readers unable to form any reasonable conclusion other than that "them" referred to "dogmas, rituals, and beliefs" rather than "thousand years".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2009, 12:51 AM

WOW...

Posted by: Tyro Apr 16 2009, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (Zurai @ Apr 14 2009, 02:54 PM)

Yep. It is, in fact, the correct way to interpret such a construct. The phrase "dogmas, rituals, and beliefs" was the subject of the sentence, and, without any other guidance in the form of context or determiners (of which there were none in Neraph's post), it is assumed that the pronoun refers to the subject of a previous sentence.

This is especially true when the sentence or phrase containing the pronoun directly contradicts what it was actually referring to. "All two of them [thousand years]" directly contradicts the phrase it was referring to, "over the last several thousand years", as "two" is not a valid number within "several" (indeed, the very first definition at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/several defines it as "more than two") -- yet Neraph's post contained neither context for nor support of the contradiction.

This left readers unable to form any reasonable conclusion other than that "them" referred to "dogmas, rituals, and beliefs" rather than "thousand years".

Well said!

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