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Posted by: Bashfull Apr 4 2009, 10:44 AM

After the cool memories people have brought up in my other thread, I wondered what people's worst moments (in terms of gaming quality) were in SR.

For me, Prime Runners was an abberation I wish I'd never bought. The two South African characters (Jonty Geldenhuys and Kepler Malan) were named after cricketers with really obscure names in South Africa, but obviously the writer thought they were typical. McBean was Howling Coyote without the gravitas. Tyrell Gates was silly.

And then Year of the Comet. It's hard enough persuading some roleplayers to play a sci-fi game with elves and orcs. Throw in SURGE and you've gone OTT. I like the idea of Halley's Comet doing weird stuff, but not that weird.

Posted by: Aristotle Apr 4 2009, 11:55 AM

This is pretty much it for me. I can't stand SURGE... it's one of the few directions I really wish the game had not gone, and it's unfortunate (imo) that it will now be included as an element of the game for all time.

Posted by: Prime Mover Apr 4 2009, 12:42 PM

I didn't play much 3rd edition although I bought the books and kept up on things. Year of the Comet seemed so out of character for SR and surge I think could have been handled differently.

Posted by: toturi Apr 4 2009, 12:52 PM

I liked the YotC and SURGE. Some SR books have stuff I do not use, but it is primarily because the stuff isn't particularly inspiring to me, otherwise I have not read any SR sourcebooks that I dislike.

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 4 2009, 01:26 PM

McBean was Hunter S. Thompson without most of the drugs.

I guess for me - and here I'm biased - the low points were the company handoffs, both when FASA closed their doors and the end of the FanPro days. There's always that yawning horror when you realize this might be the actual end of the game.

For the FanPro handoff, things were worse because I was in the freelancer pool by then, even if I knew less about what was going on than I do now. People were bitter and unpaid, there was no communication from the actual company so we could only guess at their motives and intentions, and there were horror stories from across the Pond...but really, it was the doldrums. No books for months on end. I'm a firm believe in the idea that it takes active support to keep a game afloat, and that kind of stagnation was the worst for me.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 4 2009, 02:33 PM

Worst moments in SR History for me?
The Change from 3rd to 4th Edition. .
Not even the new Rules-System alone.
No, i mean the actual way the change
was painted to have happened . .

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 4 2009, 03:44 PM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnpleasableFanbase
No i don't kid, but maybe it sounds harsher than it is but so what?
The worst thing i ever encountered in Shadowrun. The one thing that has driven me to a Nerd Rage was the german change to diagnostics. Another thing... i have a deep hatelove for Technomancers rules. I wished that there would be some revising to make them more like the Otaku where, but i know that this won't happen (not because of spite, it would be much work and i can understand that) so i let it be and enjoy it as good as i can.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 4 2009, 03:54 PM

I think SURGE is on my list of least favorite things. I mean, I don't mind the concept (I've played IronClaw and JadeClaw for heaven's sake), it just doesn't fit with how I thought of ShadowRun. So while I accept that it's canon and RAW I personally don't pay attention to it.

Posted by: Backgammon Apr 4 2009, 04:01 PM

SURGE also for me - a serious low point.

Also was (some) fans' reaction to the SR4 mechanic changes. I mean, this was before anyone read or even tried the new rules.

The cartoony art in SR3 was pretty bad too. Totally in the wrong direction.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 4 2009, 04:14 PM

My personal SR low was Brennpunkt: Matrix, the German translation of Target: Matrix. After reading is for the first time I originally registered at FanPro's forums just to complain about that totally botched book.
It had massive layout errors (wrong fonts used, font size changing in the middle of the page, etc.) an incredible amount of typos and grammar errors and, most annoying, just bad German.
You would stumble upon strange sentence structures and words on every page. It often read like a machine translation that faithfully translated each word but not necessarily the meaning. Basically, it was at best a rough initial translation that somebody forgot to then transform into actual everyday German. It looked like an absolutely amateurish work but according to the book's credits it had been done by a translator who had done much better work on earlier books.
After much complaining by me and others it was finally semi-confirmed that, as the company had "trusted the translator's previous good work", the translation had been rushed through layout and off to the printers without any proof-reading!

Posted by: Method Apr 4 2009, 05:20 PM

I gotta add my voice to the SURGE chorus. It just doesn't fit my vision of SR.

The art has always been a struggle for me, especially gun art.

Other than that there isn't a lot that I would have done much differently.

Posted by: Adam Apr 4 2009, 05:22 PM

Y'know, there was a lot more to YotC than SURGE. I think that discounting the entire book out of a dislike for SURGE is unfair to the book, and potentially denying yourself other interesting stuff from it. And if you hate the whole book -- hey, that's fair. But hating the whole thing for what is <25% of it ... not so fair.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 4 2009, 05:27 PM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=25978&view=findpost&p=790778

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 4 2009, 05:32 PM

SURGE is a weird deal for me-I wasn't too into it at first, but then, after I came up with a concept that ended up really facking awesome in my head, I kinda started to like it. (It was a retool of an old idea I had in SR3-the Demon Sam, with his Kid Stealth legs, claws, increases, horns, fangs, and the like, built with cyber.) After I built him via SURGE and realized that all of the flavor and the fairly gritty but still mangaesque feel was still there, I didn't think that SURGE automatically meant a parading freakshow of pink-furred penguin people.(Okay, so a 2.5 meter tall demon-elf who tramples enemies for his signature isn't exactly normal and certainly not for an everyday game...but...eh. I could have done it with cyber anyway. ) It's not for every game or every table, and I don't even like to use it all the time, but used for certain concepts once in awhile, or in bits and pieces it can be a lot of fun.

For me? I dunno what my low point is. I'd have to really think about it. But I can kinda agree knocking a whole book for one section might be a bit harsh. I wasn't sure what my aversion to SURGE was at first; I think it was just due to what I saw it being used for (90% catgirls, 5% catboys and 5% other. ) I suppose with anything, once you try something and realize ''hey, this is kinda cool after all'' one can warm up to it.

Posted by: Method Apr 4 2009, 06:07 PM

Speaking for myself at least, I was not discounting the entire YOTC book. I happen to like certain elements, particularly the probe race which in my game was the impetus for a new space age. And shedim are one of my favorite nasties. I just particularly don't enjoy SURGE is all.

{edit}: and for the record I have never disallowed a player from designing a SURGED character. I don't feel it is my role as the GM to impose my tastes on others.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 4 2009, 06:13 PM

I haven't discounted ever building a SURGE character, it's just not ShadowRun for me.

Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 4 2009, 06:33 PM

Like anything, it can be used in different ways. SURGE could indeed be used for a background piece explaining things; in the case of my elf, he simply could not get a job in any sort of normal society after changing into that...''thing'' which is what some folks might say, while others embraced his new look; an underground death-metal club might well be happy to hire him as a bouncer. The guy who suddenly sprouts quills all over his body is going to probably get ''talked to and with regret, let go'' from his current office job and forced to do work that doesn't mind a guy with quills. They then form their own little groups, much like many metas did; some of these guys are the metahumans of the metahumans in some ways. They might shadowrun because it's one of the few options left to them. Where before, it was color, then moved onto metas/humans, now even branches off and becomes ''who cares if the guy next to you has hands bigger than your head when the guy next to HIM looks like something out of the 2012 manga-adaptation of Dante's Inferno...WITHOUT cybermods?'' Especially with the general rarity of SURGED people compared to even metahumans.

It's pretty interesting, not wanting to get too off track, but how SURGE is usually a bit more shunned(by the players), than someone wishing to do cyber or bio body-mods. Now, SR has always been a mix of machine and magic. since day one. This is simply a case of what happens when magic goes awry(and it's only one of the things. Hell, paracritters came about long before SURGE.) Hell, even today people get body-mods to make themselves look like cat people(see the Engima's wife ), and all kinds of odd things. What's even more jarring with the SURGE is that some of these people didn't choose to be like this, unlike the guy down the street with his fox-demon cybermods.

Again, though, I can kinda see where some folks might find it a bit too odd even for them. Biomods are one thing, but actual transformation might be another. and squinting at it, it does add some changes into the mix that might just blow things a bit more out of proportion for some and give the game a different ''feel'', even though it's always mixed magic and machine.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 4 2009, 06:56 PM

I've never gotten the "It's not Shadowrun" attitude towards SURGE. The whole premise of the game was magic causing people and animals to mutate and assume a wide variety of fantastical forms. SURGE is just the extreme, more random end of that. I don't have YOTC myself, but I got the impression that SURGE was something you rolled - if that's the case, then I much prefer the Runner's Companion version. I play a build point game so that I can craft a character the way I want that character to be - I would never play a SURGEling where I randomly rolled for SURGE traits, or where the GM insisted on picking out the negative qualities. If I wanted that, I would play Gamma World.


To me, fluff-wise, the overpowered immortal elves and great dragons, as implemented, were one of Shadowrun's all-time lows. I have no problem with them being masterminds in the shadows and personally powerful. But they were presented as statless, unbeatable beings. I could see a great dragon taking on a passenger jet, or a team of experienced runners, and coming out on top more often than not. But leveling major cities? Hell no. I'm glad SR4 has greatly de-emphasized IE's and given great dragons actual stats. I haven't read Emergence, but if the fluff has been accurately reported (technomancers suddenly become social pariahs who get kidnapped and experimented on, attacked by angry mobs, etc.), then I would call that a very low point, too.

Crunch-wise, I found the original (pre-errata) mnemonic enhancer in SR3 overpowered. Grounding through foci or spirits was also broken, since it gave a tactically-minded mage ways to attack physical opponents while safely in the astral plane. I find empathy software broken, and hope they fix it soon. And I am glad that the ludicrous revised rules for combat spell Drain have been relegated to the optional rule dustbin.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 4 2009, 07:29 PM

I like Surge. Not enough people saying it

For me, it was Unwired. They had a chance to fix the Matrix and blew it.

Posted by: Ryu Apr 4 2009, 07:48 PM

For me it was the (fortunately only borrowed) "Feind meines Feindes" (Loose Alliances). A spellchecker could have found many of the errors. A painful read, despite the great content.

Posted by: Prime Mover Apr 4 2009, 08:14 PM

Ok so YotC wasn't a bad book I guess I was just underwelhmed by the satelite storyline that seemed to end with a whimper rather then a bang. I don't discount surge It just felt out of place for me and perhaps colored my recollection of YotC which really did have some other great fluff.

Posted by: knasser Apr 4 2009, 08:34 PM

President Dunklezahn

I liked him when he was a dragon. A dragon savvy enough to secure a large cut of the profits from initial interviews with him while he was still adjusting to a world with cameras and mass media. I disliked him as a potential president (how much suspension of disbelief am I being asked for by this game?) and I liked him least of all as a DMPC saving mankind.

Technomancers

Regardless of any game balance, they, by fluff, render regular Hackers obsolete. Don't like them and they smell of magic.

Other than that? The callous and off-hand destruction of Tehran in the fluff. That's about it. For the most part I've liked Shadowrun. I missed YoTC so have no strong opinion on SURGE. Artwork in Runners Companion was a bit embarrassing.

K.

Posted by: Dream79 Apr 4 2009, 09:42 PM

I liked YoTC over all, and although I don't dislike SURGE itself but the over the top over blown fluff in the book kinda ruined it for me. So I would just chalk it up to bad presentation myself.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 4 2009, 10:15 PM

As I said in the other thread, I'm in love with SURGE. I liked how it was presented, how it was put forth, and the rules. The explanation even makes sense; either magic is trigging genes that have either been broken in sequence or screwed up over millenia from pollution, drugs, or whatever, or they were partial awakenings that sprung from races that either haven't popped out fully or don't exist any more. Not that gamebreaking to me.

The only real negative I can think of is listening to the endless complaints about rules editions. Gamers truly are one of the most conservative groups of people ever.

Posted by: the_real_elwood Apr 5 2009, 06:40 AM

I really hate how lots of the SR4 artwork is taken from older sourcebooks (especially in Arsenal). The resolution of a lot of the samples is different, and the art style is different too. I really wish they'd either used all of the old artwork from one source, or just gotten a new artist to redo everything they wanted in the book. That lack of consistency just slays me sometimes.

Posted by: Adarael Apr 5 2009, 08:10 AM

The cover for "Blood in the Boardroom". Why the hell does an assassin ninja in a cyberpunk world have a goddamn PEGLEG?
"DNA/DOA". Not only is it a glorified dungeon crawl, the metagenic-causing virus? Lame.
My continual disappointment with every rigger book failing to present coherent, cogent rules.
99% of all the fiction. Especially anything to do with Dunkelzahn and that goddamned Dragonheart.

Posted by: Anythingforenoughnuyen Apr 5 2009, 08:39 AM

I am still a little sad that Private Agendas was never published. That marks a sort of turning point for me as far as the feel of the game goes. I started playing Shadowrun when the only book FASA had published was the first edition core rule book. I am not one to pine for the old days, and I certainly do not hate everything that came after the early FASA supplements. But the feel of the current game is not the same as the rough and ready early days when Shadowrun was The Lord of the Rings meets Neuromancer. The books don’t even smell the same (I am not joking here; those early FASA books had a unique smell that I still associate with the game). The Sixth World was a lot less defined then, a lot more open to interpretation, and a lot more focused on disconnected and loosely connected individuals and events than the current meta-plot driven game.

I made the change to Second edition, then Third, and now Fourth, keeping up with the game every step of the way. And I like a lot of the new stuff. But there is still a part of me that looks at the old books and wishes that the new books could feel like that. And, of course, that I could be 14 again for an afternoon too.

AFE

Posted by: tisoz Apr 5 2009, 04:23 PM

lol, I never even noticed it 'til you pointed it out. I think it is supposed to be a ninja swor, just poorly drawn from that angle.

I chalk this up to freelancers not knowing what SR was and doing a quick adaptation of a rejected adventure originally written for another game. All together a poor SR adventure. Many things I disliked about the adventure, but the biggest gripe I have, and heard others note, is the railroading needed to get the PCs into the ork underground following the ambush.

Really have to agree here, especially when sai books claim to fix the problems. Ditto for pre-4th edition decking books.

I hated Worlds Without End. Actually wrote FASA a letter asking if the author was married or sleeping with someone to get the book published. I, and I think I am in the m inority here, dislike the crossover with Earthdawn and this was a book that was in a series where the other two books were in the Earthdawn series. So not reading the other books, I missed a lot of what was happening, and although the book could stand alone, without the others it left a really bad taste in my mouth for several reasons. My dislike of the crossover is that it is a huge investment in money and time to keep up with just the SR proucts. I think it is unfair to have to buy another game to pick up on the subtleties of the game you love.

Posted by: Critias Apr 5 2009, 04:51 PM

The cartoony feel of SURGE was one low point for me. It was almost a shark jumping moment, I felt, where I imagined someone getting a hearty buzz off some caffinated soda during a brainstorming session, watching a little too much anime just beforehand, and then going "Hey, you guys know what would be awesome? Catgirls. We need to fit in catgirls. And we'll make up a reason for it, too, of course...but...but...Hey. then we'll name it after this soda I like! Extreme!"

I'm sure that's not how it really happened, but that's just the sort of "Mountain Dew commercial" taste it left in my mouth, for whatever reason.

The missing five year gap (even moreso than the rules changes) between SR3 and 4 was a larger one, though. Much like DC's "One Year Later," I dislike following a timeline for years with near-religous fervor and then it suddenly skipping a beat and leaving me having to play catch-up. ZOMG LOOK HOW DIFFERENT IT IS, SOMEDAY WE'LL TELL YOU WHAT YOU MISSED is a jarring new approach for a game that was once very well regarded for its metaplot and real-time story progression in published works. It literally felt like that moment in a movie where the background music goes "squark!" as the invisible record

As one of the loudest anti-SR4 voices back in the day, please keep in mind that "anyone" is a strong word. Quite a few of us who were involved in the flipped cop cars, burnt down businesses, and general rioting in the street back in those tumultuous days were involved in the playtesting or otherwise did have access to the new rules.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 5 2009, 06:24 PM

Strongly agreed. I see the disdain but rarely the math or the play-testing to back up the complaint. But message boards that promote anonymity and "drive-by whining" rather than real discussion usually result in this sort of thing. Say what you will of Something Awful, where a small one-time fee is required to become a board member, or The V, where pseudonyms are prohibited, the discussions tend to be discussions and rarely devolve into shouting matches (and if they do, at least they're entertaining). The fact that Bull had to post an "anti-venom" sticky is a strong indicator to me that Internet anonymity isn't always a good thing. It's like sitting at a round-table discussion where everyone is wearing a paper bag with two eye holes over his head.

I have my own beef with some of the BBB rules but the optional rules in Unwired, etc. have provided me with reasonable work-arounds for more balanced game play. Naturally, setting/fiction is harder to quantify as one either likes it or one doesn't.

I've found the novels to be fairly awful across the board but a) I'm a book snob and b) that's usually true of any licensed tie-in material so I won't selectively pick on SR for that. In my world of rainbows and lollipops, I'd love to see serialized, periodical-format fiction from the current freelance writers. Those 500-word vignettes are tasty and I want to see them developed into short stories.

Posted by: TeOdio Apr 5 2009, 09:31 PM

Echo the Dragon Heart Trilogy. The love scene between Mercury and Daviar still makes me cringe. That was velveeta madness.

Posted by: Critias Apr 5 2009, 09:37 PM

You guys are all just jealous because you're not as badass as Ryan Mercury, is all!

Posted by: JonathanC Apr 5 2009, 10:41 PM

Catalyst changing the rules at the last moment due to fanboy whining. Does that mean we can get talking pink ponies added to canon if we just beg long enough?

Posted by: Malicant Apr 5 2009, 11:15 PM

You could try... whiner.

My personal low was when I realised how terrible the german books were compared to the originals. They even changed some minor rules they didn't like. I hate this so much about german roleplaying publishers. Friggin' houserule crap. I hate it with a passion you wouldn't believe.

Posted by: HappyDaze Apr 5 2009, 11:20 PM

Minority perhaps, but I too dislike the Ed connections.

Along with that, I don't like the President Dunk crap or technomancers. SURGE i was OK with - give me changelings over Drakes any day.

Posted by: Tyro Apr 5 2009, 11:25 PM

I'm not a fan of Drakes, AI characters, or free spirit characters either, and shapeshifters could have been done much better. Runner's Companion has some really good stuff, but it also has a good bit of badly edited and just plain odd material. You pay extra for fluorescent skin (Oni, and that really should make it CHEAPER - you stand out a lot more), but not for Ogre stomach (Ogre, obviously), which makes your Lifestyle 20% cheaper AND gives you +2 ingested toxin resistance? Fail.

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 5 2009, 11:55 PM

Why do you think I had to add a sidebar on centaur sex?

Posted by: HappyDaze Apr 6 2009, 12:05 AM

Unless I'm mistaken, My Little Pony is by Hasbro, so expect to see them in D&D4e first!

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 6 2009, 12:23 AM

This is the low point of SR in my opinion. The fans that see something happening in the metaplot and start screaming "OH MY GOODNESS, IT MUST BE ANIME INFLUENCE!!one!1!!" Most often, they're completely misled about current anime thematics, picking up on things that were only ever common in the early nineties. Wasn't YOTC published in 2003? When the big famous series would have been Ghost in the Shell : Stand Alone Complex and Naruto?

Clearly, anime is to blame for the inclusion of cybernetics in that book. Absolutely disgusting!


Okay, so let's look through the convenient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_catgirls and identify the significant series in there that came between 1998 and 2003 and hence might have found their way into the hands of SR fans whilst still retaining the least bit of cultural relevence.

• Yu-Gi-Oh, but only some random monster
• Inuyasha
• Outlaw Star
• Azumanga Daioh

For fairness, lets also throw up some Western series with catpeople in them from the same era

• Red Dwarf
• Animaniacs
• Multiple animated series of Spiderman

Now lets look at the origins of Catpeople and Animalpeople.

• Mickey Mouse, Disney (US)
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Lost_C%27Mell, possibly the origin of the catgirl (US)

Thank you for your time and rage, they provide sustenance for my blossoming egotism.

Posted by: Catsnightmare Apr 6 2009, 01:38 AM

The low point for me was 4th edition in it's entirety. At first I was so jazzed about it, because I assumed it would be like the transition from 2nd to 3rd. Just a fixing and tweaking of the existing rules to make it a better game. When I saw the true horror of what was coming, then I was disappointed. I saw more of what was coming, and then I was pissed, and hated beyond all known hate that abomination of an edition that forever ruined SR for me.

Though I have to say that out of 4th edition, Technomancers stand out the most as it's lowpoint for me, second only to the rest of the god-awful rules system.

Posted by: JonathanC Apr 6 2009, 05:11 AM

To be fair, they're kind of an improvement on Otaku.

Posted by: TeOdio Apr 6 2009, 05:14 AM

Sheeyit, a whole god damn battalion of Azzie Leopard Guards, with Feathered Serpent Cheer Leaders and Cyber Zombie Accountants aren't as BADAZZ as Ryan Mercury. Plus he's banging a hotter version of Sarah Palin on the side? I won't be the first, and I won't be the last to say it, but FUCK Ryan Mercury... and FUCK drakes too!

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 6 2009, 05:48 AM

Oh, human-on-drake action.

Kinky.

Posted by: Medicineman Apr 6 2009, 06:40 AM

The first two Printings of the BBB SR4 in German
You wouldn't believe how badly they were made. Important Infos missing (Like base Attributes for Trolls !!) Spelling Errors Galore (Astrebene !! ),missing Index .....

with a sighing Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 6 2009, 06:43 AM

What I dislike from Surge is the "We can't undo the changes despite all the rules would say we could do it easily" rule - really, if we have full body replacements, then no change by surge is something that has to be kept - and the "We hate surglings, even though we can't really tell who is a surgling because just about everything could be a cyberware modification anyway" - really, does anyone think today's furries won't mod their own bodies with cyber and bioware in Shadowrun? Catgirls will be around as soon as those mods are possible, you don't need surge for that.



Exactly. All the dragon and IE worshipping fluff, and especially the "Nothing can stand against a great dragon" stupidity leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'd really like it if Catalyst would have one of the GDs shot down by a random military, just to show that GDs are not gods, and that in Shadowrun, everyone and anyone can be killed if people get to shoot at them with military hardware.



I hate the ED crossover stuff. It's not because I hate having a 4th world - my game world has a magical past, and ties to it hidden in the metaplanes - but because I think ED's rules and setting doesn't mesh well with SR's rules and setting, and because it added a lot of "Old stuff is way better than anything we can do today" stupidity into a game where SOTA should be the case. That sort of Tolkien "We are mere shadows of the glories of the past, and will never be as good as the men and especially elves were back then" drivel adds a D&D flavor to Shadowrun that ruins it for me.

Posted by: Cardul Apr 6 2009, 06:59 AM

The lowpoint for me is: That Holostreets is not out yet!

Posted by: Uli Apr 6 2009, 10:34 AM

I loathed all the houserule crap and extra German-stuff-is-uber-stuff equipment of the German books, too. I'm just so glad, that Fanpro doesn't do the job anymore.

But that's not nearly as bad as the final plot of the third edition: nuclear weapon foci? A conspiracy...
- with ridiculous ressources
- that no megacorporation knows a lot about, let alone can eradicate
- that tries to destroy the world
- with the help of the originally cool dissonant Ex Pacis (although they hate the matrix).

I loved Brainscan and the Network and Ex Pacis, but Winternight simply sucked the cool out of the plot. Me and my fellows just remove all the magic nukes from the history - the Network and the worm suffice.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 6 2009, 11:46 AM

To be clear, Ex Pacis doesn't hate the Matrix. Their goal was to bring down the existing Matrix and replace it with one of their own making. Which really goes back to Pax's all-consuming fear of Fading; it's believed that she thought that remaking the Matrix would stop that process.

She may have been right.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 6 2009, 11:52 AM

He means Winternight, they hate the Matrix. And it seems strange that a group with a fundamental hatred of the matrix and technology teams up with "worshippers" of that technology.

Posted by: ornot Apr 6 2009, 12:02 PM

Hate is far too strong a word, but I was disappointed with Unwired. It made using all that tech even more confusing and complicated than the Wireless World section in the BBB. More opportunities to roll handfuls of dice in endless extended tests to achieve something that is either moot or forgotten by the time you actually finish. Not really what I wanted.

I find SURGE somewhat distasteful, not because of any link it may or may not have with anime, but just because I find it hard to really include in any meaningful way. There's not enough to it to really use as the focus of a story without it just being a dressing (lemme think; experiments on SURGEd folk, runners hired to rescue them - can be done with just about anyone; SURGEd Johnson hires runners to salvage something from his former life - again, plenty of other reasons for that to happen besides SURGE), and there's more than enough other stuff one can include as set dressing without resorting to strange animal people. With PCs it can just get silly, as can be seen from the characters Dumpshockers post. It doesn't add anything that isn't available through another route. I also second the comment that there isn't much that SURGE can do that 'ware can't. And if a person wants a character with goat legs, they can just as easily get cybered. I feel kinda similar about metavarients; if a player wants one, and they can do it without said character resembling twinked uber munchkin of death, I'm cool, but generally they're ugly and unnecessary.

IEs and GDs are interesting, but I prefer to keep my movers and shakers faceless. When they come out and start doing stuff for themselves I think it rather diminishes them.

Posted by: ornot Apr 6 2009, 12:03 PM

Considering that TMs no longer face Fading brought about by ageing, it looks like it worked.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 6 2009, 12:08 PM

Ah, okay, that makes more sense!

Posted by: darthmord Apr 6 2009, 12:20 PM

I didn't mind that. It merely drove home the concept that you don't piss off an vengeful great dragon by declaring a religious war / jihad against him and metahumanity.

If I were that dragon, I'd be rightfully pissed as well.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 6 2009, 12:25 PM

And that illustrates why I consider the IE/GD worship SR's greatest failure. Said Dragon should have had to use pawns and armies, not himself, to destroy Teheran. Even GDs should fear the military in Shadowrun, we're not playing D&D.

Posted by: ornot Apr 6 2009, 12:46 PM

I agree that a GD should not fly about smiting things willy nilly; and they should be killable by military means if they're stupid. However, I don't think that the military should be the ultimate force of destruction either. While we aren't playing DnD, we aren't playing W40k either.

Posted by: Particle_Beam Apr 6 2009, 12:57 PM

Meh, it was early 2011, and it was the Shadowrun-iranian islamists with poor weapons and shaddy houses who are nothing like their real-world counterpart 2009, that got wrecked by a Great Dragon. Sounds believable, as none of them had any idea how to battle magic, and I guess Aden will have used some spirits and a little bit of Invisibility (perhaps even Improved Invisibility) to make Teheran burn.

The fictional Iran in Shadowrun had crappy armies and crappy technology, just like the fictional USA in Shadowrun had barely an army left after withdrawing from all their bases around the world. Or the Japanese (with all their fantasy (porn) cartoons depicting sexy elves, cute dwarves, and other stuff that they really like) becoming the most hateful anti-metahumanists who put people with pointy ears in concentration camps, and forgo democracy and return to militaristic imperialism, as if the Diet never really existed.

After 1999, or perhaps even earlier, the Shadowrun world is totally different from the real world, where some nations have weird ecological disasters, a weaker army, or still exist while in the real world, they don't.

Aside from that, there was a Great Dragon who got shot down by airplanes in Germany, wasn't it?

So it balances out.

One Great Dragon trashes a poorly equipped army in a hazard-prone city in a surprise attack, another Great Dragon drops dead after trying to take over a modern country that retaliates with air fighters and missiles. Afterwards, one Great Dragon tries to legally become president of some corporation and turns it into number 1 worldwide.

Up till that, I'm okay with the Great Dragons and their roles in Shadowrun (quite powerful against poorly equipped sods with no experience against magical fire lizards, quite dead against anything above that).

It's Ghost Walker who stands out and disrupts the above-mentioned power cycle. Three modern armies who experienced the Awakening more than 50 years ago, and were nervously twitching their fingers, should one of the other nations sector try something funny, were stationed there. .
But then comes the self-proclaimed puppet master, destroying Aztlan sector, trashing around CAS and UCAS sector, and then claiming rulership over all of Denver, and everybody's totally okay with that.

Hmm....

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 6 2009, 01:02 PM

What if not the military should be the ultimate force of destruction? Since the military (of corp or country) can be manipulated, and often has to rely on information and data gathered by other means to strike, I really do not see what would be an argument against making military means top dog in firepower.

As a tangent, a Shadowrun world where Dragons awoke and found themselves in a world where they were very vulnerable to humans, not top predator anymore, and had to adjust, and had to "go Dunkelzahn/Lowfwyr", meaning adapt to a media world, and becoming something akin to idols (magic authority, author/artist, history authority, pop/media star, politician, corp exec, cult leader) in order to secure their existence, and exert power through humans, not as flying battleships, would be very nice. They could still be driving forces in the 6th world, but their days of ruling the sky and the battlefield would be in the past. And Shadowrun is almost there, all it needs is to adjust a few pieces of the metaplot, like Denver's take over (rewrite it to some political master move, not stupid assaults) and Teheran (could have been wrecked by dragon cultists, or internal strive fostered by the dragon, or some bomber strike of their own air force, diverted or influenced by the Dragon, and similar incidents.

Posted by: Blade Apr 6 2009, 01:11 PM

When Shadowrun was officially about chaotic-good superheroes who saved the world and/or took a central part in all of the world's most important events.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 6 2009, 01:13 PM

"Harlequin's Back" then?

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 6 2009, 01:13 PM

3rd Edition: I thought I'd love it. When I read it, it seemed to fix all the things that had been burning us out on SR2. Yet somehow it failed. Every session I ran of it made me hate 3rd edition more and more. And the worst part is, I still don't know why...

SURGE: While I was down the awakening of new metavariants, like the minotaur, the random SURGElings were too much.

Big D for President: Yeah... I'm sorry, I liked D as a media-savvy sage-like figure. I didn't even mind his running for president. I just wouldn't has allowed him to win. I would have changed it so he died before election day.

Tehran's destruction: I really had very little knowledge of Iran until (quite) recently. After having seen some relatively unbiased documentaries and doing a little independent research on the subject... the destruction of Tehran seems to be a bit... I don't know. Sloppy? Callous? Knee-jerk?

Bug City: I just can't get into the whole Bug City plot. Which is funny considering how much I liked/feared Universal Brotehrhood and Queen Euphoria.

-paws

Posted by: ornot Apr 6 2009, 01:22 PM

I think we are broadly thinking along the same lines Fuchs.

The things that would prevent armies from being the ultimate forces of destruction would be the same kinds of things that there are today. The sheer difficulty of bringing that force to bear on anything in particular, coupled with the necessity to answer to other people or organisations. I like to think of the 6th World as being a shifting network of alliances engaged in cold war with each other, where outright war is an impossibility. Wars are fought over negotiating tables, and in the shadows, and your best defence is paranoia.

Posted by: Nath Apr 6 2009, 01:24 PM

For the record, Year of the Comet was released in 2001, at the end of the FASA-FanPro transition hiatus. Some of the authors may have started writing their part as early as 1998 or 1999.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 6 2009, 01:51 PM

IIRC, Shadowrun and the real world split history-wise in the 80s.

Thought I'd throw that out there.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 6 2009, 02:25 PM

The official date-of-split is 1991, with the breakup of the USSR (in SR it doesn't happen until 2030).
Due to the fact that it's a major world event, and any discrepancies earlier than that are relatively small.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 6 2009, 02:45 PM

I've never had an issue with the destruction of Tehran by Aden. I mean, it was 2020 when he razed Tehran. Most military forces did not have much of an active magical defense at that point and even less so a military that had explicitly persecuted metahumanity. And as has been mentioned, it's doubtful that Aden just flew in unprepared; he probably had a small legion of spirits with him as well as prepared spells.

Which is all very different from the Ghostwalker attack on Denver, where a dragon who was clearly unprepared (he'd just escaped from the Deep Metaplanes) took on a city with established magical defenses and state of the art military assets.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 6 2009, 03:06 PM

I don't know any of the specifics of Ghostwalker's takeover, but I count one of the things that allowed him to so easily gain control was the fact that there were three armies all ready to blow the other two apart, but lacked enough firepower to take them both out without being annihilated by the combined return fire.

Ghostwalker drops in on Atzlan forces and begins tearing holes left and right. The other two look on with eagerness, wanting to get in on some of the fun, but know that:

1) There's a great dragon over there, he might come over here.
2) U/CAS over there might turn on me.
3) Atzlan can still shoot back

The dragon only out-matched one side, but the other two didn't want to jump in for various reasons (say the CAS fires on GW, UCAS takes advantage and fires on the CAS. GW then turns around and starts ripping the CAS army to shreds, and what's left of Atzlan also fires on CAS; end result: no CAS army and a living (if wounded) dragon who returns to beating up on Atzlan forces, or possibly turns on the UCAS forces because they're shooting at him and what's left of Atzlan isn't as big of a threat).

Posted by: Malachi Apr 6 2009, 03:54 PM

I have a memory of reading somewhere that Aden was aided by "several powerful spirits" in his destruction of Tehran. I probably read it in Dragons of the Sixth World or Survival of the Fittest.

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 6 2009, 03:57 PM

If you want to get really picky, the official date-of-split was a lot earlier than that (discounting Earthdawn):

From Shadows of Asia:

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 6 2009, 04:09 PM

Then sometime after it comes back into line such that all of history for some 6500 years is identical...up until 1991.

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 6 2009, 04:41 PM

We get it Draco, you're right.

I just ask for some sanity when it comes to Ghostwalker bickering. I can kindly link to the thread that's been made before - to sum it up, "he couldn't have!" "yeah huh!" "uh huh!" "yeah huh!"

Seriously, it takes like five minutes in the search bar

Posted by: the_real_elwood Apr 6 2009, 05:35 PM

Man, I don't get why Great Dragons doing crazy things in the metaplot is such a big deal. When you're writing the plot, anyone can do anything. Corps can outmatch government forces on the battlefield, great dragons can raze cities, whatever. The characters do what the plot requires them to do.

But if you really want to fight a great dragon, go grab the stats, make up some runners to do the dirty work, and go to town. No one's gonna stop you.

Posted by: Fuchs Apr 6 2009, 05:46 PM

I hate games with that attitude.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 6 2009, 06:19 PM

That's a joke, right? We can take an in depth look at Japanese fantasy if you want. I swear you're only going to see Elves and so on when it's explicitly borrowing the tropes and styles of Western fantasy. Even then, the most important Western styled fantasy in Japan is either curiously quiet on the existance of Elves and Dwarves, or else they're inimical to human life.

Assuming, of course, that you agree on the fact that Berserk and Slayers are significant cultural artifacts. Slayers; no visible elves or dwarves, most naturally occuring magic is inimical to civilisation. Berserk; nearly all magic is inimical to civilisation either by violent opposition or by requiring morally dangerous deeds to tame.

Vision of Escaflowne. Animalpeople are the only nonhuman civilised species and they integrate into human civilisation. You also see 4 significant nonhuman characters. Merle is the spunky sidekick to the young human prince, we have Dilandau's minder, Jujuka. Then we have Folkken's two catwomen minions. Notice something important? They're all subordinate to human characters.


Japanese mythology has names for the things we call Elves, Dwarves, Orks, and Trolls. Yousei, youkai, oni, ayakashi. None of those is seen in favourable light. At best they're not imminently destructive.

Need I point out that these are the roles that fantasy races occupied until the revisionists in fantasy literature recast them as less-than-inimical to humanity for use as the fantasy equivalent of forehead aliens. Traditional British folklore says of the Elves "do not go into the forest at night, and keep a horshoe above your doors to bar them entry". The Norse regarded Dwarves as smiths with few peers, but also as capricious alien beings beholden mostly to ancient agreements with their gods. Orks and Trolls have rarely been viewed positively by anybody.


When figures of myth walk amongst you, the first things you will notice are that the Elves are tricksy sons of bitches that will sell ice to eskimos and buy your coat off your back for the change in its pockets. Orks and Trolls can turn you into mincemeat with barely a scratch, and the Dwarves are stubborn, tough little people that demand an entirely new set of measurements. People always see the worst first, because it stands out. Virtues are forgotten because virtue is expected in society.

There was also serious concern that UGE and goblinisation were signs of serious contagious diseases that permanently disfigured their sufferers. I'm sorry, but you don't take chances with that. Just like you don't take chances with Polio.



There we go. I wasn't in the RPG scene at the time, and the publish date I got off Amazon was 2003. Still, only a few major series included catgirls at all. They aren't even a characteristic distinctive of Anime. I try to do things properly. Try to understand how frustrating it is to see people make greivous errors and not realise or care.

The thought of that makes me squirm.

Posted by: Dhaise Apr 6 2009, 06:38 PM

Around the late Fasa- early Fanpro era, where every event was a big advancement of the metaplot. I didn't mind SURGE, I liked Harlequin's back, I liked Threats 2. I liked the Arcology Shutdown,But I hated every single one of them being some sort of mandatory set peice for every major event in the world. And Immortal Elves. Holy crap I could a lifetime without learning of yet another Immortal Elf brazenly displaying power in front of some group of anonymous runners for a 15 dollar pregen runs conclusion. IE's worked better for me when it was hinted in the fluff and the npc's who talked about them were dismissed as complete crackpots. It was like reading Amatuer fanfic where every new adventure/story tries to top the one before it in scale.
I am so glad the metaplot has taken a step backwards, and the focus is on the world again instead of just a few pet favorites in it.

Posted by: Wordman Apr 6 2009, 08:25 PM

Mechanical low: my first combat (in First Edition), where I ambushed someone, shot them dead in the face with a .44 magnum, and did no damage whatsoever. Generally, the mathematics of First Edition was pretty dreadful. Also, all of the pre- (and some of the post-) Fourth Edition matrix rules were horrible.

Writing lows: A tie

• DNA/DOA
• Prime Runners
• Paradise Lost
• the fact that no location book has ever turned out to be as useful as the original Seattle Sourcebook was.

Meta-plot lows: I'm gonna go with Ghostwalker here. Not for the reasons others have given, but because it just didn't seem necessary, interesting or fun, and didn't really seem to have much of a purpose. I also really liked the Dunklezahn arc (the whole concept of his will, for example, wouldn't even have been possible in most other settings), and it seemed like the Ghostwalker twist sort of raped the whole thing.

Fandom lows: Another tie

• Physad vs. Samurai debates ad nauseum
• Edition whining. The 3rd vs. 4th, in particular, is the reason I stopped reading this forum regularly. (The idiocy demonstrated in some of the other threads that I've seen today reinforces this decision.)
• The move of rec.game.frp.cyber (and Usenet in general) away from being a useful tool for roleplayers.
• Being called a racist by a bunch of e-mails over the years, by people (all non-gamers) bitching that my fictional world map calls it the "Sea of Japan".

Personal lows: Year of the Comet, but not for the reasons others have stated. Ultimately led to realizations that made me stop playing SR, for the most part.

Posted by: kzt Apr 6 2009, 09:00 PM

I brought this up in the first "Fasa talks about SR" at Gencon the year after SR1 release. The fan boys got all defensive and weren't buying it. But the examples in the books were insane, and the writers had clearly failed intro to statistics.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 01:05 PM

Teh Internets.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 09:06 PM

When (9*X)-(5*E) became less than (5*X)-(3*E) [for all positive solutions] due to the fact that (9*X) was larger than both of them.

(I.E. up until the last few days I considered this forum to be relatively intelligent, albeit some questions that can be answered by quoting the rules, such as "do mages need to move their hands to cast spells?" can be answered by the section on page 168 "Noticing Magic" (It can be overlooked, I understand). It was when basic math stopped making sense that I realized that no, October 1st, 1993 hasn't happened yet--today is September 5703, 1993 and the internet still lacks sensible, mature, and educated discourse).

Posted by: Dhaise Apr 12 2009, 10:03 PM

You're finding fault with the game/entire internet because some fellow consumers may or may not be socially retarded/disagree with you?

Posted by: Eleint Apr 12 2009, 10:08 PM

Add me to the Immortal Elves/Great Dragons hate. I didn't mind the Earthdawn links per se, but the 'you cannot face an IE/GD, if the players try they lose' is just /stupid/. I agree they should be powerful, but able to be beaten. And definitely statted, not the ultimate GM-wank bait.

Give me Immortal Elves (and maybe a few Immortal Dwarves and other things, I never saw why it was just elves except for elf-wanky porn where elves are so speshul) who sit in the shadows, are as powerful as a high, high end PC but that's all, who got their skill and are rightly not wanting to die so don't challenge themselves anymore and manipulate the world. Give me powerful Great Dragons who can't take on whole nations 'because they're dragons, man!' Yeah, and that's a squad of Apache Assault Helicopters and Missile batteries. Verses the average runner, GDs are scary. Verses a strong nation's military, not so much at least in outright physical power.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 10:56 PM

No. This just happens to be the latest in a string of forums filled with people who have problems with common sense and/or basic math/science/etc.

There's only one forum I have been on since....oh, 2002 or so that hasn't had this problem.

One.

And it's not a fault with the game, but it is a fault with the game's community. There is in fact more back and forth bitch-fest rules pissing contests here over any other game related forum I've been on. This includes the 40 or so threads that Left 4 Dead's official forum had on the Melee Fatigue.

Posted by: raggedhalo Apr 13 2009, 08:20 AM

It's because dragons only like the lanky ones

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 13 2009, 11:02 AM

Wow Draco. That's all I can say.

Posted by: Critias Apr 13 2009, 12:58 PM

Well, I think I speak for all of us when I say we're terribly sorry we disappointed you so, but fuck off if you think we're all idiots.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 02:05 PM

I don't think you're all idiots.

No. That particular verbage applies to only one forum I used to go to (even the moderators all went on permanent hiatus and the admin forgot to renew the domain name...twice).

Posted by: Adarael Apr 13 2009, 06:14 PM

Well, let me say you can kindly fuck off if you think that not being as math literate as you also makes us retarded.

Not that I think you're saying that, mind you. I'm just giving you a pre-emptive finger if you do.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 06:31 PM

Math literate? I barely made it though calculus. And now I've forgotten most of it (I could probably still perform a derivative and an integration of one variable, but that'd be it).

I just happen to use Algebra and Geometry every day.

It's the point at which people start insisting that Math is wrong and then use irrelevant claims to back up their point.

"4 is more than 2, would you like to earn 4 exp or 2 exp?"
"I'd like to earn 9 plz. It's more than both."
"I'm sorry, that's not a choice. 4 or 2?"
"9"

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 13 2009, 06:46 PM

NEIN!

Could be a homonym issue.

Posted by: Dumori Apr 13 2009, 06:52 PM

I'll have 6exp please. As that satisfies the OR logically. (It is both 4 and 2 thus one or the other its a stretch though )

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 06:54 PM

I'd expect that out of someone who doesn't have English as their first language.

But out of all the years I've spoken to a guy in Bangkok, Thailand the only time he's had an issue telling me something was when I asked him "What's for dinner?"
(It was Fried Rice and he didn't know what us Americans called it).

Sure, that's one person, but it's so frequent that I see a non-native speaker apologize for their bad English in a post only to have better English that most American posters.



Haha. But yeah. It's math like that that makes me just want to bang my head on the wall.
Like:

In SR4A, the cost for buying an attribute went up. It now costs 16 more karma to get [Attribute] to 8 than it used to.
Ok, but the amount of karma you have to spend went up as well.
But that's 16 extra karma I could have spent on something else!
No you couldn't have. You either gain the extra karma and have to pay the higher costs, or you don't gain the extra karma. You can't have the increased karma awards AND the lower karma costs, it doesn't work that way.

Posted by: Malachi Apr 13 2009, 07:05 PM

Oh! Is getting more and paying less for everything an option? I want that too! [/sarcasm]

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 07:58 PM

It's almost as bad as this guy I corrected a programming error for:
(Flash actionscript)

if(_root.player, hitTest(_root.enemy))

Which doesn't work. If you do if(A, B) the statement is true if and only if B is true. A has no relevance (I did a test wondering why it didn't throw a compiler error, and I still don't know why, but at least I learned what the compiler thought it meant).

What he wanted was if(_root.player.hitTest(_root.enemy)) which caused the player object to call a hitTest on the enemy object not to see if A the player existed (???) and B the enemy was colliding with....some object, likely the stage (or possibly whatever object was calling the function).

I had to correct this syntax error four times, then he called me (and everyone else trying to tell him that making games isn't a copy-paste operation) a jerk (for not giving him the answer), then left and went off to make games in Blender.

Posted by: Synner667 Apr 14 2009, 11:31 PM

My biggest gripe with Shadowrun v4 ??

The whole change from "Shadowrun is a rich and complex game, with many different types of character" to "Shadowrun is a game where everyone is a criminal".

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 15 2009, 12:31 AM

Shenanigans!

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 15 2009, 04:30 AM

I honestly like the idea that "every PC is a criminal" aspect of ShadowRun. It's so far removed from any other RPG I've ever played.

It's like playing Fable (or other "morality game") and always being forced into the "good" options and then playing again and realizing that no, you can be a douche bag and get away with it and have so much more fun.

Sure, you can be "chaotic" or "evil" (or even "chaotic evil") in D&D, but it's not that much fun. In ShadowRun I can run over 50 innocent bystanders while driving through the underground Renraku mall in order to escape a Lone Star helicopter firing anti-vehicular rounds out of a heavy machinegun and have the deaths hand-waved.

Only to come back a week later and put a wailing spirit on their cardboard memorial (making them keep it up) while we do an extraction run.

Best.

Fun.

Ever.

In D&D being evil and doing bad things is more comical, like being becoming litch and trying to kill the rest of the party (one of our former players did that in a game once). That's funny. Running over several dozen people is a sad and terrible deed, but normal.

Edit:
I should post the game logs of that SR game...

Posted by: Glyph Apr 15 2009, 06:28 AM

Sorry, but... no. I look at my copy of SR1, and for types of shadowrunners, it talks about whether you are a decker, or a magician, or a street samurai. I look at my copy of SR4, and it talks about Johnsons who might be other than corporate, runners who can be proactive, or politically motivated, or motivated by social justice, etc.

The only change affecting the "richness and complexity" is that the game is more street level. Not in the sense of weaker characters, but in the sense of characters who do their own thing rather than being railroaded through set-pieces for every significant event that happens for the timeline.

Posted by: Dikotana Apr 15 2009, 07:54 AM

Maybe I'm violating some great unspoken rule, but my understanding is that the BBB and various other books provide rules and fluff for our enjoyment. There is an entire world described, and several sourcebooks have at least touched on how to play as something other than shadowrunners at all.

Criminals out to make a buck? Easy. Non-criminals who need to survive and clear their names? Easy. SWAT team, hired muscle, street gang, military squad, assassins (political or for hire), or CorpSec? All easy.

But what about Humanis nutjobs out to kill all the degenerates? Or a cadre from a conspiracy trying to bring down all the megacorps, one at a time? Or a group trying to do it absolutely alone? Vigilantes trying to police the Barrens because Lone Star sure ain't gonna show up and do it? Yes, the rules cover all these as well. You may not go by the term "shadowrunner," but you've got all the fluff and crunch a GM needs to make a story and run with it.

How many different kinds of characters and Johnsons are described in the book don't make the world. The worldbuilding makes the world, and the four editions and dozens of sourcebooks have provided literally decades worth of world, from the mean streets to the corporate boardrooms to the hospitals and armies.

In my favorite SR campaign, all the players were employees of a shockingly innovative and lucrative tiny corp (garage level, home computers, and basement labs, really), and most of the campaign was about trying to keep the company from being swallowed by bigger fish. There wasn't a single "shadowrunner" on the team; shadowrunners were goons sent by the AAA enemies to make life hard. And this was in SR2. Were there rules for it? You bet: weapons, cyberware, combat, magic, everything! If you need the rules to tell you what your characters can be, you need to start thinking bigger.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 15 2009, 08:42 AM

My group plays civilians for the last half year. We all have sins, had nothing to do with the Shadows and don't plan to run because we all have SINs and regular Jobs. That's when the Assassins came and tried to kill us. So Yeah.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 15 2009, 09:41 AM

And now, for a little rebuttal:

That's fine, except that we were arguing that your equation didn't apply to the problem at hand. It wasn't a question of math, but of application.

BTW, since we're going around insulting the intelligence of others, I must say that it's wonderfully bright of you, after having a forum admin close the topic you are discussing (because the topic was getting too hostile), to go onto another topic in the forum and insult the intelligence of the people who disagreed with you.

Bravo.

Because I'm certain that your opponents from the previous topic won't notice what you say in this topic ... wait, too late.

What you have done is neither sensible, nor mature. In fact, I find it rude, and immature.



Now you continue to insult those who disagreed with you in the previous thread, but further generalize to attack everyone in a vague notion. You complain about sensibility and maturity while displaying neither. It's no wonder why people were giving you the finger. If the discourse on this forum is so horrible, perhaps its because people such as yourself choose to 'elevate' the discussion by insulting everyone else.



I didn't 'barely' make it through calculus. Nor did I barely make it through my statistics class. Nor did I barely make it through another class in which we spent time studying things like the time value of money, and how to do cost benefit analysis. (Which, apparently, was irrelevant to the discussion. Except for the fact that it was very relevant.)

(For those of you who want the crib notes version, my argument is that the changes in SR4A mean that you are better off when you must burn edge to live, but you are much worse off than in SR4 should you burn edge when you could get by without burning edge.)

The reason why your equation is wrong is because this is a comparison of benefits. The basic idea here is that if G - C > P, then the alternative is worth the cost. 'G' would be the gain, 'C' would be the cost, and 'P' is the 'do nothing' alternative (The result if you decide to NOT burn edge).

There are two possible values of P. Either your character is dead, and you get to restart, or your character survives whatever made you consider burning edge. At which point, your value is however much karma you would normally have (That 9 karma that you insist we can't have).

The value of C is obvious in both equations. It is either the 5*(rating) karma, or 3*(rating) karma.

G however, is an abstract. Why? Because you can't truly measure the value of burning a point of edge mathematically. This isn't a problem, however, when G is 'character survival' and P is 'Character death and replacement'. In this situation, you have two measurable quantities.

On one hand you have a starting character who gained 9/5 karma, but lost 5*(rating)/3*(rating) karma in order to survive. On the other hand, you have a completely restarted character with 0 karma. This tells us that if karma spent in order to survive exceeds 9/5 then you would be better off letting that character die.

Now, in a burn or die situation, I would agree that you are most definitely better off in SR4A. 4 being better off than 2, after all. However, the discussion was about whether or not the changes made it more worthwhile to just burn edge for critical successes, or even to create a character around burning edge. The 'recreational use' of edge, if you will. In this case, I was arguing that you were *worse* in SR4A because the value of P was no longer a guaranteed 0. True, the situation might end in your character's death (forcing you back to 0), but it might also be a value of X (where X equals the karma you have currently plus the karma you'd get at the end of the night) should you character survive. So, if you have a 90% chance of surviving the test in which you are burning edge, that would make P a value of .9X.

G, as I mentioned before, is hard to evaluate, but C is not. So, let's take an example, the cost of burning 1 edge with an edge of 1 versus the alternative, 90% chance of survival:

SR4: G - 3 > .9*5 or G - 3 > 4.5
SR4A: G - 5 > .9 * 9 or G - 5 > 8.1

Our value of G, of course, won't be the same. G being equal to an intangible (critical success) and your tangible karma level.

So, let's say that G = U + X (The tangible and the intangible). Using a starting character, with burning 1 edge with an edge of 1 versus the alternative, 90% chance of survival:

SR4: U + 5 - 3 > 4.5 or U + 2 > 4.5; 4.5 - 2 = 2.5 So, if U > 2.5 then burning edge is a good choice.
SR4A: U + 9 - 5 > 8.1 or U + 4 > 8.1; 8.1 - 4 = 4.1 So, if U > 4.1 then burning edge is a good choice.

What this means is that for SR4A, the intangible benefit must be worth more than in SR4 to be a good choice. Now, admittedly, the odds of survival without burning edge is a key factor here. However, it's one that is most difficult to calculate. Especially, since you can't put a number on how nice your GM is going to be.

So, I'm saying that SR4A, in comparison to SR4, encourages you to burn edge to survive, but discourages you from burning edge should death not be very likely.



We were discussing the cost of burning a point of edge, and whether or not it was more worth it or less worth it to burn edge in SR4A. Last time I checked, no one was holding a gun to your head and making you burn a point of edge. Even if the benefit of burning edge was the survival of your character, you can always choose to NOT burn the edge and recreate your character. (Maybe even correct the flaw that got you killed in the first place.)

In fact, I would counter that while 4 is preferable to 2, when edge > 2, 0 karma is greater than the amount of karma you would owe to return to your previous "0 karma" state.

I must add that I love how you leave out exactly what was being discussed while giving just enough detail in order to mislead everyone as to what the argument was about. This must be the wonderful 'educated discourse' you were talking about earlier. The one in which you obfuscate the truth in order to paint the opposing side as idiots.

Perhaps if you are truly interested in improving the discourse, you should start by altering your own. Everyone makes mistakes, even the brightest amongst us. Even if you could prove that someone is mistaken, that doesn't make it right to use that to paint others as fools and idiots. That's just plain rude.

Posted by: Eimi Apr 15 2009, 10:36 AM

I've been on a real SR nostalgia kick for the last month or so, (I'd gone into heavy withdrawl after running out of painkillers to counteract the side-effects of a chronic disease around this time of year, a few years back, while reading the Denver sourcebook. Needless to say, I think of SR whenever I think about that experience...in a weird, comforting, way), going back and re-reading at least couple dozen pre-4e books, and acquiring much of the 4E line I hadn't owned previously, too. Part of why I finally registered here a few days ago.

And I've just gotta say...the contributers to Shadowland have been calling themselves criminals, unabashedly, since 1e. I like it. Consider, a vital part of Science Fiction Dystopia (not including Post-Apocalyptic, here) is the overwhelming control various organizations (governments, corporations, etc) have over their citizens, far out of proportion to what we have today (or had back in the 20th century). To the extent where anyone that isn't not only a law-abiding, but WILLFULLY complacent and submissive, citizen is, by definition, a criminal.

In the world of Shadowrun in particular, that means anyone that's a shadowrunner, a mercenary, a smuggler, a hacker, a magician that doesn't work for one of those major organizations, or even a person that dares question, or even think a bit too freely, the wisdom of keeping those organizations in power. If you don't belong to them, you're a criminal. Simple as that.

Posted by: BlueMax Apr 15 2009, 01:17 PM

I don't think "Being a Criminal" hits the nail on the head. There are many types of criminal. Not to belittle First Edition but in first, we were Robin Hood. Somewhere around Second Ed, we saved the Rod Damned world. Maybe that was too far, but it certain wasn't heartless , thoughtless, or one fraggin dimensional.

Sure, Glyph, the main book now has a villian^H^H^H^H^H^H errr Toxic^H^H^H^H^H^H radical eco shaman. And yes the game will let you play whatever you want. However, that's not all fine and good when what adventures published don't let the players act on good.

There is a Mission where the characters are the tools used in the death of a young child. The adventure allows no deviation from this point.
In Ghost Cartels there is nothing for the characters to do but contribute to the plague on humanity. The train tracks ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H adventure offers a great view of the disaster as it happens.

The main book is open, sure fine and dandy. The examples presented getting more and more violent and heartless. Trend lines count.

However, its not an "all time" low to me. My group and I can play however we want, we can trash trashworthy adventures and move on. And yes, we do play "Hero Criminals". Something akin to Firefly or Serenity. Criminals with a heart who don't take crappy jobs and won't do the absolute wrong thing.

When this subject comes up, its a great laugh for many of you. However, I encourage everyone not to respond quickly. Take a deep look at material published before 1996 and then after.

Now to stir more controversy, and perhaps cause a flippant response such as "Shenanigans", I present an All Time Low.

All Time Low: Shadowrunning becoming a publicly used term. There have always been people performing acts outside the norm, and they have never needed new fangled fancy names. Criminal fits nicely, as they do break the law.

BlueMax
/"I'm going to Pistol whip the next person to say Shenanigans"
//"AH, whats the name of that restaurant Blue Max likes to eat at with all the Goofy Drek and the Mozzarella sticks?"

Posted by: Dr Funfrock Apr 15 2009, 01:26 PM

Lowest point in Shadowrun?

The fact that, in all probability, I will always look at my copies of Shadows of North America, Shadows of Europe, and Shadows of Asia, sitting on the shelf, and feel like there's an empty space where a fourth book should be.

Posted by: Uli Apr 15 2009, 01:39 PM

Shadows of Antarctica?

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 15 2009, 01:52 PM

Shadows of Seychelles.

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 15 2009, 02:10 PM

Shadows of Lower Austria!

Posted by: Wesley Street Apr 15 2009, 02:17 PM

Shadows of LAos!

Posted by: Uli Apr 15 2009, 02:50 PM

Shadows of Nowaja Semlja! You don't want to go there...

Posted by: The_Vanguard Apr 15 2009, 03:32 PM

The Dissonance - suddenly we had Jedis in the matrix. "I sense that the dissonance is strong in you, young Pax."

No, thank you. In my campaign the Deep Resonance is a neutral force (or state of being). "Dissonance" is just propaganda every group of 'mancers stick at stuff they don't like.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Apr 15 2009, 05:12 PM

With the SURGE rules applying to critters, I thought it was canon.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 15 2009, 05:24 PM

Well, add certain bioware to centaur, and you are pretty close neh?

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 15 2009, 05:27 PM

I am not continuing this debate here.



For that exact reason.

Though you could look at the date and see that my post was well before the original thread was closed.

And the rest of your post goes unread.

Because you're the one crapping all of another thread with this.

That thread is merely one of several reasons used as an example for why I have an extreme distaste for humanity (yes, that's right, the species).

Posted by: Kev Apr 15 2009, 10:14 PM

I have to agree with the lowpoint, in recent memory, being SuRGE. I mean really, parts of it were pretty interesting, but most of it was just... eh. Especially the random rolling of SuRGE-related happenings. Random rolling? What is this, That Other Game?

Another bone than sticks in my craw is the sudden main-streaming, in the metaplot, of Shadowrunners, especially in the whole LA scene. In my vision of it, Shadowrunners are criminals who, I don't know, stick to the shadows. The metaplot seems to say that shadowrunning is as common as having a NORMAL job. But maybe that's just me.

That having been said, I think that everything that SR4 has been doing is right on track. The feel of the game (except for that little bit above) is right and the sourcebooks and materials have been top-notch. I think that right now in SR it's sort of a new renaissance, and that's a really nice high-point.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 15 2009, 10:22 PM

The Los Angeles runner scene is pretty atypical. L.A. has found a way to commercialize the runner subculture the same way it commercializes every single other subculture.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 15 2009, 10:55 PM

I've generally found that the best way to return the 80s mindset is to put Howard Jones, Thomas Dolby, and the Human League on infinite loop. It might not actually fit with the book setting, but I don't give a dang - my world is full of people with trenchcoats and day-glo orange hypermullets.

Part of the problem is that the timeline kept being advanced by huge lumps. During the 80s, you had a climate where technology was expensive, ugly, unreliable, and available only to the very wealthy, the very powerful, or the very dangerous. During the 90s, technology started to become universal. During the naughties, we don't even think about it anymore - it's a case of "shoes, coat, iPod, scarf, gloves".

I haven't looked much at the SURGE rules, but I'd use 'em to create mutants freaks, likely caused by corporate toxic waste "accidents".

Anyone here ever read the Ear, the Eye, and the Arm when they were kids? A character like the Eye has massive utility...providing he's not blinded by ordinary noon daylight.

Also, I've found that some of the most fun characters to play are those who violate stereotypes. Catgirls are generally not expected to be 6'5" 275 pound bodybuilders with the ability to punch through reinforced concrete.



A "mutietown" might be very interesting indeed, especially considering the large percentage of SURGEd individuals with magic. It's generally a bad idea to mess with people who can round up a posse of initiated spellcasters at a few minutes' notice.



Is this in any way related to reefer madness? It's the only way I came up with to parse this phrase.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 15 2009, 10:57 PM

You don't get around Cat-girls much eh? *snickers* ^^

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 16 2009, 12:35 AM

OMG, awesome book. I wonder if I still have it around...

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 16 2009, 01:21 AM

We have that. It's in Chicago.

Posted by: 10gauge Apr 16 2009, 02:43 AM

If you understand... why are you posting this as an example? oO

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 16 2009, 03:40 AM

Have you considered selling a "Gargantuan PDF Collection of out-of-print goodness?" For $30, you could sell $0.04 worth of bandwidth full of books I can't buy any more.

The only other alternatives are piracy and buying used off eBay, and if you could offer an alternative that lacked the potential bundled malware of the former and secondhand chee-tohs stains of the latter, it would be awesome.

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 16 2009, 03:47 AM

No, not out of print. I mean in Feral Cities. We have a little community of changelings run by the white sheep of an ancient political dynasty that goes by the handle Muppet.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 16 2009, 03:53 AM

It was an example of something I don't mind.

Posted by: Adam Apr 16 2009, 03:56 AM

We're working on getting the remaining OOP books online. The original plan for getting them scanned and OCRed wasn't working out for a couple reasons, but we have a new arrangement that, once the ball gets fully rolling, should wrap everything up quite neatly.

Posted by: Malachi Apr 16 2009, 04:09 AM

Tops on my list would be Cybertechnology and the Lone Star sourcebook.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 16 2009, 08:40 AM

If you make that happen, i will have to buy all of them o.O

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 16 2009, 10:59 AM

Wow. I have to admit that I've never thought of that before.


Aisha Clan-Clan from Outlaw Star is a good example of this.


I need Feral Cities so bad.


I'm surprised no one jumped on this. This comes from Velveeta Cheese, a brand over here in America.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 16 2009, 12:53 PM

Please expedite this! I'm willing to let the money burn a hole in my pocket to re-obtain a bunch of items that I lost in a house fire (1st printing of the old Street Samurai Catalog, non-redacted version along with a bunch of 1st & 2nd edition books).

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 16 2009, 01:00 PM

Funny story, there are actually three distinct versions of the Street Samurai Catalog printed in English.

Posted by: Link Apr 16 2009, 01:46 PM

Do tell. I have the 1st ed. and the censored 2nd ed. editions, what's the third?

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 17 2009, 03:30 AM

There's the original gray-cover 1st edition SSC (1989, complete) and then there are two black-cover revised-for-2nd edition SSCs (1992, no Firepower™ ammo or IPE grenades).

The difference in the latter is how the expurgated items are concealed. One version has huge black letters saying:
BANNED!
THIS ITEM
PURGED IN SHADOWRUN II!
Which completely conceals the artwork, stats, shadowcomments, everything on the page.

The second, and I believe rarer, version has a solid black box concealing the stats/shadowtalk area, with the same text as above (though not sized), leaving the artwork for the entries visible.

Both of the revised copies are noted as "Corrected third printing." so I honestly don't know why the variation. 's a mystery.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 17 2009, 04:34 AM

.....I've never heard that one, and I live near a Kraft factory.



I want one of these now.

Posted by: Adarael Apr 17 2009, 06:20 AM

Man, I used to have 3. I thought everyone had this copy...?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 17 2009, 09:14 AM

OK, new Low-Point, Shadowrun censoring frigging equipment? O.o
And then coming up with Mr.Dong and PamelA 2070?

Posted by: ravensmuse Apr 17 2009, 10:51 AM

I have a copy with the BANNED! but I didn't know about the third printing. Huh.

IIRC, wasn't it banned because they'd made that stuff obselete with the 2nd ed corebook? Like, they'd changed the damage code or something?

Posted by: Larsine Apr 17 2009, 11:39 AM

Neither did I, and I thought I had everything for Shadowrun


One of the items banned was FirePower ammo, which upped Heavy Pistol damage from 4M2 to 6M2 (IIRC), but with SR2 all heavy pistol damage was now 9M, and there was no need for FirePower ammo.

Another was a special trigger, so pistols could shoot twich for each action. But with SR2 free, simple and complex actions was introduced, and since it was a simple action to shoot a pistol, the special trigger was not needed any more.

I can't remember what the last item was.

Lars

Posted by: Warlordtheft Apr 17 2009, 11:59 PM

Curiosity got the better of me. Items in the SS Catalog that were banned:

Firepower ammo
Expanded clips
IPE Grenades

All were dropped in some part to a change the damage codes. In the change from 1st to 2nd the clips became the standard so it was duplicative .

The reactive trigger was in the comments on the APII, in the SR2, the entire comment was removed.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 18 2009, 06:39 AM

Interesting - the German Strassensamurai-Katalog (1993) is a mixture of those: It has the 1st Edition grey cover with the first 2nd Edition censoring option. The items are printed over with
STOP!
GEGENSTAND
IN SHADOWRUN II
GESTRICHEN
with text and artwork still partially visible in the background.

Posted by: MYST1C Apr 18 2009, 06:43 AM

IPE grenades were later re-introduced simply as grenades with higher damage codes in Fields of Fire (alongside the "works the same but does more damage" Ex-Explosive ammo).

Posted by: Ryu Apr 18 2009, 07:01 AM

Yeah, as far as an all time low goes, that should still qualify. "See? This could have been another piece of gear you could actually have used." Thanks not for reminding me.