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Posted by: DocMorbius Apr 6 2009, 08:58 AM

The Challenge: So my Cyber'd up elf got shot in the face with a rocket launcher, time for a new character... Now we have a good selection of players and characters in our group but only one mage so i thought I would make another to complement our overworked colleague. But I'm thinking of making it different, making it interesting, making it a free spirit (shaman)

The Problem: I have been looking at creating my free spirit (using rules in Runners Companion) but after the Whopping great 250 BP to become a free spirit it does not leave much to work with, I find that after putting a decent amount into Force and edge I have almost nothing left to get skills and bring other attributes above 2! And as a spirit cant use foci I need high attributes (luckily force = Magic so there is one saving made.)

The bonus: What I do have to work with however is an extra 58 Karma to sprinkle on top (a leftover of my poor exploded elf), now at the start this sounded like a lot but when buying skills it doesn't get much into the high places I need it.

The Plee: I need help, any you can give me would be great, from tips to vague ideas to outright character builds, anything is wanted and appreciated! thanks guys and galls, I really need a clue here

Posted by: Malicant Apr 6 2009, 10:10 AM

Unfortunalty the Free Spirit rules are fucked up so much, that you can pretty much forget playing anything above Force 2, maybe 3. But on the upside, you don't get Karma! Isn't that great?

With this rules you play Free Spirits so weak, they should never have become free, so only chose this option, if you want to be a Free Spirit, that can accomplish nothing at all besides being a Free Spirit.

Unbalanced is prefereble to unplayable in SR, but that's just me.

Posted by: raggedhalo Apr 6 2009, 10:21 AM

You can get Karma, just make sure you take the Friendship Pact ability. Problem solved.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 6 2009, 10:24 AM

Yeah. Friendship pact. Ever read how that blasted thing works? It's a joke.

Posted by: raggedhalo Apr 6 2009, 11:03 AM

Yes, several times, because there was a free spirit PC at my table. Crucially, it allows the spirit to earn Karma, which undermines one of your points.

Posted by: The Mack Apr 6 2009, 11:33 AM

@ the OP

If you're looking to have fun, and RP a Free Spirit, then make a Free Spirit.

If you want to play a dedicated magician, play one of the standard metahuman races.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 6 2009, 11:36 AM

Look up a recent thread on Free Spirits. I posted in it several times and we determined how we could make the SR version of Pun-Pun with a Free Spirit. You could potentially rake in several thousand Karma every year just by taking advantage of the Pacts.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 6 2009, 02:39 PM

A Free Spirit is fun!

I'd suggest concentrating a bit more on the inherent abilities of a spirit. Materialization/Possession, the ability to teleport anywhere you've ever been before in a couple turns (anywhere on the planet!), and the built in Powers. Powers that you can use over and over and over and over again for years and years with no drain whatsoever.... Influence.. Psychokinesis etc for no drain, all the time, forever. Oh, and a Materialized spirit can fly! (Some debate here...) Get to at least Force 4, any skills are a bonus after getting your inherent Powers.

"Where've you been?"
"Oh I stopped over in Fiji to visit an old contact to order that software you wanted."
"Fiji! We've been stuck behind this door for 20 seconds!"
"Oh yeah, it's daytime there, nice and sunny. Let me go open it from the other side."

Posted by: Maelstrome Apr 6 2009, 04:07 PM

you could always try karmagen. le gasp.

i could show you what i made with karmagen. i have a decent free spirit.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 6 2009, 04:30 PM

First off, read my story "On The Hunt" for how you can get, and stop, a Free Spirit from doing anything he/she/it wants. (Link is in my Sig.).

As for why playing a Free Spirit? Well, why do Spirits do anything they do after they get free?

And the weakness issue, well, said Spirit might have been the favourite Watcher Spirit of the group's old Mage, who didn't disapate when he died, and the group already knows "Bouncy". A few Karma later, and "Bouncy" becomes "Bouncer"!

Especially if the group is ever able to retire and open that Club like they want to.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 12:08 PM

Actually it allows you to lose Force points without being able to prevent it. Which makes it a joke.

Posted by: raggedhalo Apr 7 2009, 01:48 PM

In the extremely unlikely situation that neither the dying PC's player nor the free spirit's player are willing to burn a point of Edge to keep the PC alive and thus maintain the free spirit's force.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 02:14 PM

So, you have a large group and everyone is happy to go into a pact with you, that only benefits you, not them. Right. That makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

Posted by: CanRay Apr 7 2009, 02:50 PM

"Oh, come on, it'd be like having a high-powered pet! We'll make it do tricks, take it for walkies, have it possess that Ex you hate and make her do things that we can record and blackmail her with... It'll be great!"

Posted by: Neraph Apr 7 2009, 03:34 PM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=25710

Posted by: Namelessjoe Apr 7 2009, 03:34 PM

i played a wheelman free sprit once it was fun i had a few spells and modest ill admet tho i was laking in the skill selection but it was fun... i would say if you want to play a free spirit then play one but you wont be an uber mage then agian i dont think thats what you wanted your supporting th party's mage right? as for stats just go for making your self unbalanced or way specialised like force 4(you start at 2 anyway and all your stats at that) then your drain and will power stats at 4 so thats only 60 bp for those 3 stats then sprinkle anouther 100 for your other 6 stats and youll be around human "typical" then on to skills (thats 410 so maybe alittle lower on phiscial stats 2s for str and bod is fine) take some big neg traits like alergy according to the tradition that created you (like holy water or wisconsin cheese) and ignorance for weapons like guns and or matrix use alittle cheesy but it gets you points then buy a few spells and buy skills with your karma

Posted by: Ryu Apr 7 2009, 03:47 PM

If you are just looking into being a secondary spellcaster, I´m afraid you´ll want to play something different. Free spirits are a distinct option.

Follow up on Dire Radiants advice, and concentrate on what is special about a Free Spirit. You could play the free spirit sidekick to your groups magician:

"Mushu" (form: small eastern dragon)
250 Free Spirit
060 Edge 5 Force 5 (Concealment, Movement, Realistic Form, Fear)
024 Spellcasting 3(spec), Counterspelling 1 (combat spells +2), Assensing 1
015 5 Spells
050 Intuition 5, Willpower 4
----
399

You can dodge guards and bullets by leaving the material plane, attack targets of opportunity from behind, and are generally able to fly move in all directions. Immunity to normal weapons is high enough to protect you in combat. Your spellcasting abilities will grow fast, while your powers work from the beginning.

Posted by: raggedhalo Apr 7 2009, 04:11 PM

Except that it does benefit them, too -- because there's a second layer of Edge waiting to save them if they die unexpectedly.

Posted by: Aaron Apr 7 2009, 04:37 PM

Not to mention the free spirit with a vested interest in keeping them alive.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 7 2009, 06:42 PM

Erm, with force 5 your edge and int would be at maximum, so the cost would be 30 bp higher if i'm not mistaken.

Possession plant spirit (Hedge Witchcraft Tradition)

250 Spirit
55 Magic 6
30 Edge 5 (Aura Masking, Realistic Form, Noxious Breath)
60 Cha 4, Int 4, Log 3, Wil 3
30 Enchanting(Vessel Prep) 1+2, Influence 1, Automatics 1, Assensing 1, Astral Combat 1, Counterspelling 1, Spellcasting 1
04 One spell xD
-35 cheesy disadvantages

Not a great spellcaster but a really nice infiltrator.

Posted by: Ryu Apr 7 2009, 06:58 PM

Thanks for catching that!

"Mushu" (form: small eastern dragon)
250 Free Spirit
050 Edge 4 Force 5 (Concealment, Movement, Realistic Form, Guard)
044 Spellcasting 3(spec), Counterspelling 5 (combat spells +2), Assensing 1
015 5 Spells
040 Intuition 4, Willpower 4
----
399


Your build is nice - I would suggest to forego Aura Masking and initiate for the masking metamagic ingame. Concealment would be a good replacement, as possession comes with a physical vessel.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 7 2009, 10:13 PM

Awesome, a character that is only any good if you die.
It barely works in theory, in actual gameplay it's a sick joke. Free Spirit is only good for roleplaying, nothing else. They contribute nothing beyond flavor. They are stupid, ugly, dumb, weak klutzes with less utility then unbound spirits and DPs barely above Watchers. And don't even start with "unlimited potential". Most campaigns are over before they are even half decent.

Posted by: Maelstrome Apr 8 2009, 02:40 AM

i made a free spirit character with karmagen and it isnt useless at all. if you want an effective free spirit use karmagen. or is it taboo to your group? if any of you want to see it PM me. but i would say its proof enough that free spirits can be useful.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 03:43 AM

I Too think that this is the way to go if you are wanting to play a free spirit...

Posted by: Ryu Apr 8 2009, 09:13 AM

Multipost.

Posted by: Ryu Apr 8 2009, 09:14 AM

Multipost.

Posted by: Ryu Apr 8 2009, 09:15 AM

"Mushu" costs 678 karma (assuming unchanged karma-gen), or 774 assuming a change to attribute*5 with everything else unchanged. While karmagen is currently better than BP-gen, free spirits gain noticeably less from the power differential than everyone else. (Technically the cost is 500 karma lower due to race being free, but let´s assume that any GMs answer is "NO!" in that case.)

As for the utility, there are character types that can´t offer nearly unlimited Concealment, Movement, Guard and Magical Guard counterspelling to every team member that is in their "bubble", can´t infiltrate via the astral, and don´t have Immunity to Normal Weapons. Another factor is that you can spend your share of the group income however you want - for the benefit of your friends, for example. ("Metahumans are summoned by locating a specimen that demonstrated the needed skills in the past, and transfering a to-be-negotiated amount of "nuyen" in exchange for the service. Warning! These are no binding contracts.")

Posted by: Malicant Apr 8 2009, 11:42 AM

KarmaGen is a completly different critter. With it, you can build "flavor" characters that actually contribute something to the gruop.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 8 2009, 11:50 AM

I think it's the way to do if you want any kind of "flavor" character. But with BP Gen you're pretty much hosed in that department.

Posted by: DocMorbius Apr 8 2009, 03:53 PM

Ok so I have had a bit of time to look into it, what do you think of the following build?

**as noted this is created with 400BP and 58 Karma** -- I converted 3 BP into 6 Karma as they were left over at the end--

Body 3 (9karma)
Agility 2 (free)
Reaction 2 (Free)
Strength 2(Free)
Charisma 5 (30 BP)
Intuition 3 (9 Karma)
Logic 3 (9 Karma)
Willpower 5 (30 BP)
Force 6 (40 BP)
Magic 6 (free due to force)
Edge 5 (30BP)

Assensing 3 (12BP) + Spec in Spells (2Karma)
Spellcasting 4 (16BP)
Counterspelling 6 (24BP) + spec in Combat spells (2Karma)

Initiation lvl 1 metamagic Shielding (13 Karma)
Initiation lvl 2 metamagic absorbtion* (16 Karma)

Spell - Stun Bolt (5 Karma)

18pts in knowledge skills (Free)

5 Power points worth of spirit powers (free from edge)

Negative traits (+35BP, probibly Uneducated, vendetta (blood mages) and enemy, bloodmages)

(* Not sure if I have the name right on this one as I dont have the book on me now but it allows you to absorbe the force of the spell you are counterspelling and use each point of force counterspelled to drop the drain on the next cast spell (i.e masivly overcast stun bolt))



-------------------------------------------------------------------

This character is realisticly doable, he is specificaly attuned to our mages weaknesses (she is a specked up summoner who has crap counterspelling) it has 16 to counterspell combat magic and can aborb the enemys attacks, he has 5 edge with whitch to get some decent spirit based cheese (the free spirits version of engulph is bad ass!) he is immune to small arms fire in most cases and can learn new spells by just assensing the spell as its cast, he has 18 free points in knowledge skills and can kill an enemy by just walking up to them whilst holding a frag grenade (which he is immune to, go hardened armour) with a little Karma he can get some basic back up face skills as well.

- oh and there are 7 other characters in the group so force 6 is easy enough -


what do you think of teh build?

Posted by: Neraph Apr 8 2009, 04:08 PM

The attribute maximum for a free spirit is equal to their force. So a force 4 spirit's racial maximum for stats is 4. So getting two stats at 4 on a force 4 spirit costs 90 BP total... Force 2 to 4 = 20, Attribute 2 to 4 = 35 (10 for one increase, 25 to cap.) and you can only have one such attribute maxed out.

EDIT: I've found to be especially useful for Spirits are these:
Lightning Reflexes
Lucky
Shapechange /OR/ (If GM allows, we can argue this point at-length) (Human/Troll/Ork/Elf/Dwarf) Form

Posted by: Maelstrome Apr 8 2009, 04:25 PM

you know what. ill probably regret this but im going to post mine. if anybody sees any problems with it, tell me so it can be fixed. i made this character with the gm over my shoulder but no telling what could have fallen through the cracks at 3 am.

Schwartzvald
free spirit
radiation toxic

body 4
agility 4
reaction4
strength4
intuition4
logic5
charisma4
willpower5
edge 6

force 6

qualities
negative
signature 10
distinctive style 25
positive
quick healing +2 to heal
focused concentration +2 agaisnt drain.

willpower+logic=drain

skills
agility
exotic weapon polearms4(specialised scythe)
blades4
unarmed combat4
infiltration 4
exoctic ranged weapon elemental attack 4
reaction
dodge 4

intuition
perception 4
assensing 4
shadowing 4
tatooing 4

logic
armorer 4

magic
spellcasting 5
counter spelling 5
astral combat 4
ritual spellcasting 4
arcana 4
enchanting 4

charisma
con4
etiquette4
negotition 4


knowledge
magic theory 4
magitech engineering4
philosophy 4
poetry 3

language
latin 4
sperethiel 4
cityspeak n
japanese 4

spells
stunbolt f/2-1
manabolt f/2
manipulate metal f/2 +2
acid stream f/2 +3
toxic wave f/2 +5
shatter shield f/2 -3
power bolt f/2 +3
powerball f/2 +1
lightning bolt f/2 +3
heal dv-2

spirit powers
influence 2 charisma+force against willpower
guard .5 prevent accidents
elemental attack radiation 3 bypasses armor dv 6
pschokenisis .5 equal to magic+willpower test


contact
street mage 6/6
magic researcher 3/3
talismonger 3/3
Laughlin Free Spirit 6/6

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 8 2009, 09:42 PM

Thanks for the kind words.
The reason i went for aura masking is that it allows the spirit to pass as a mundane when possessing someone (well when he raises his edge that is ) With the metamagic i'd need to be a lvl 6 initiate to accomplish that which is quite a big karma investment.
Concealment is certainly a great power but actually I want to be seen so when possessing Joe the watchman I look like him in the 'real' world as well as on the astral.
The moment noone sees me in real my aura is suspicious, that's what this is all about.

Oh and honestly I think that this is a character you can play and be useful to a group, but reading some comments here apparently YMMV.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 8 2009, 10:05 PM

Er you take one of the most expensive 'metatypes' and create it with the most retarded (albeit the official) version of karmagen which let's you have it for free and ask where the problem is?
Are there things your GM actually doesn't allow?

Posted by: Maelstrome Apr 8 2009, 10:18 PM

my gm actually told me to use karmagen for my free spirit. he is pretty lax about allowing things. its how i was when i was the main gm for the group. i guess he picked it up from me and the others. if its in the books or complies with the rules he allows it. thats how i do it, that how he does it, and thats how my other gm friends do it. and its work out so far.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 11:20 PM

And that is one of the reasons that I like it, for any number of concepts...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 8 2009, 11:25 PM

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in the least... Lighten up Suppenhuhn...

Posted by: Ryu Apr 9 2009, 05:55 AM

Force is 55 BP, as you are buying that last point of it. Going for Force 5 / Edge & Willpower 4 is much cheaper. I would add a few spells (with BP), and avoid dealing with bloodmages on a regular basis. Those are ikky. Some suggestions: Magic Fingers, Levitate, Foreboding.

What do you intent to do with the powers? Engulf is nice. Natural Weapon is great, but requires secondary investments in Agility and Skill.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 01:58 PM

So you don't think a whopping 62% Buildpoint freebie might be a bit problematic for team balance?
Why do 'normal' metahumans have to pay 30 karma to be a magician when they just as well could be a spirit and have it for free plus loads of other goodies?
Flavour characters are all fine and good but maybe playing Odin the god of thunder is not appropriate for a normal powered campaign and thus such things have high costs attached to them so they only are worthwhile in high powered games with more points for chargen.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 9 2009, 02:22 PM

You need to get your rules straight. There are benefits to being a metahuman mage that a free spirit CANNOT have. Not to mention other ways to die as a Free Spirit that as a metahuman, do NOTHING to you.

Also, if you were to build a free spirit under BPs, they have to pay a significant chunk of BP (250 iirc) for their package of benefits. The mage package is much cheaper and by far, more cost effective.

Besides, if one character is using karmagen, then all characters in the group should be using karmagen.

Methinks you are tilting at windmills.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 03:02 PM

You mean things like summoning powerful spirits for loads of drain as opposed to being a powerful spirit all the time?

Which are?

I was talking about Karmagen.

Which doesn't give nearly the same benefit to normal builds as it does to munchkin flavour chars.

Among the blind the one-eyed is king.

Posted by: Neraph Apr 9 2009, 03:07 PM

Destroying a Spirit Formula. People don't have Spirit Formulae.

Posted by: The Mack Apr 9 2009, 03:26 PM

You don't need a Spirit Formula to put a bullet through their heads.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 03:38 PM

That disrupts a spirit as does about anything that kills a metahuman. whoopdeedoo

In fact the one and only way to kill a spirit is to venture to his home metaplane and destroy it there and even getting the formula you need to begin with is more work then killing a team of runners and the moment someone has my formula i know that and i know exactly where it is.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 9 2009, 04:08 PM

It's not a competative game, so i don't understand this need for exact team balance.
And it's only that hight freebie, becouse the cost of the free spirits is so retardidly hight in BP-chargen.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 04:30 PM

It gets problematic when other character start to become redundant or when some are so powerful that challenging adversaries for them are a death warrant for the rest of the team.

The BP cost isn't that much off when you consider what a spirit is capable of simply by being a spirit.
With 400 BP you can easily make it a valuable team member.

Posted by: The Mack Apr 9 2009, 04:42 PM

Let's say you have 6 players.

They each start with 750 Karma.


But you're not concerned with "exact team balance", so you choose one of them and grant them an extra 450 karma.


So then, 5 of them have 750 karma builds and 1 of them has a 1200 karmabuild.

Does that look right to you? Do you think the other players will mind?



That's basically what you're doing when you let someone play a Free Spirit for zero cost in karmagen.

Except instead of karma you've given them what are effectively super powers, including teleportation, as well as a modecum of immortality.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 9 2009, 04:55 PM

I wish more people would see it that way. This is Shadowrun. Balance is an illusion.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 9 2009, 05:06 PM

Execp the amount of starting karma has allmost nothing to do fit characters being "balanced" with each other.
the one with extra 450 karma might be the most powerful of the bunch or she might be the weakest.
Unless all of those six players are über min/maxers or non min/maxers there is gonna be big differensies in power when comparing those 750 karma character with each other.

Posted by: darthmord Apr 9 2009, 05:13 PM

I've seen 400 BP character builds here on the forums that are worlds beyond anything I would make with the same 400 BPs. Yet both can quite peacefully co-exist in the same campaign.

I still think you are tilting at windmills.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 05:55 PM

For the record, I have no quarrel with freeform rp but when you use rules then those better be fair.
There's also nothing wrong with high powered campaigns, simply raise the BP/karma allowance.
But being not human is in all shape and form a quality so why should it be free?
I find it odd that you seem to think being a Fomori Dzoo-Noo-Qua, a Nartaki Nosferatu, a Wendigo or a Spirit are such minor advantages that they shouldn't cost points as opposed to such powerful things as being a magician (30 karma) which happens to be part of the the latter 2 packages.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 9 2009, 05:58 PM

Why should it cost anything?

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 06:04 PM

Congratulations on your 1137th non constructive and totally moronic post.
Take yesterday off.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 9 2009, 06:37 PM

EPIC FAIL
All of those, except free spirit, cost a lot more points then being a mage, their qualities.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 9 2009, 08:21 PM

Pff would be if all mentioned were qualities.
Some doesn't change my point one bit, apart from the whole what's species and what's not part appearing to be even more random.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 9 2009, 08:31 PM

Considering karmagen is the only way free spirits are remotely playable, I don't see the problem. 250/400 BP is an utter travesty for the very limited advantages being a Free Spirit gives you. They're even worse than AIs in that respect, and AIs are hard to pull off in a 400 BP build with less than half the 'racial' cost.

Posted by: Malicant Apr 9 2009, 09:15 PM

Still 200 more to go, then! [well, actually 198, but heck, who's counting]

What exactly is your point, anyway? Such a character will never ever bother you in your games, so, what are you crusading against? Those windmills were innocent!

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 9 2009, 09:31 PM

Keep the discussion civil. Everyone is entitled to have the personal opinions and preferences for play.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 12:37 AM

I only see 10 counterspell dice (which is still good) and would really urge you to go for a possession spirit.
Not only does it give you a very powerful mind control ability but also lets you add the possessed person's physical attributes to yours.
Thus a base spirit possessing Joe Average has 5 in all physicals. Throw in 1 point of weapons skill and you roll 6 dice for shooting which, if you fire bursts, is already enough to be useful in combat.
Also consider the concealment power. Those -6 detection dice render your team completely invisible and inaudible in many situations.
I would guess you need to pay karma for spells nonetheless btw, would be a bit too easy if assensing alone would do it.

Possession Plant Built #2 (Now with 108 Karma due to 25 leftover BP)

Body: 2
Agility: 2
Reaction: 2
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3 (9 Karma)
Intuition: 4 (21 Karma)
Logic: 3 (9 Karma)
Willpower: 4 (20 BP)
Edge: 7 (65 BP)
Magic: 6 (55 BP)

Lucky (20 BP)
Bad Qualities (-35)

Initiation lvl 1 metamagic Shielding (13 Karma)

Counterspelling(Combat) 4+2 (24 Karma)
Etiquette 2 (8 Karma)
Con 1 (4 Karma)
Assensing 1 (4 Karma)
Spellcasting 2 (8 Karma)
Automatics 2 (8 Karma)

Noxious Breath 1.5
Aura Masking 3
Realistic Form 0.5
Accident 0.5
Fear 1.5

Almost impossible to detect, main weapon would indeed be the possession itself.
7 counterspelling dice.
Kinda min/maxed with karma conversion.

Possession Spirit #3 (84 Karma, 13 BP left)

Body: 3 (9 Karma)
Agility: 5 (40 BP)
Reaction: 4 (21 Karma)
Strength: 3 (9 Karma)
Charisma: 3 (9 Karma)
Intuition: 3 (9 Karma)
Logic: 3 (9 Karma)
Willpower: 3 (9 Karma)
Edge: 5 (30 BP)
Magic: 6 (55 BP)

Bad Qualities (-35)

Counterspelling(Combat) 5+2 (20 BP + 2 Karma)
Archery(Bows) 5+2 (20BP +2 Karma)
Spellcasting 1 (4 Karma)

Stun Bolt (4 BP)

Statue of Artemis (Plasteel)
STR 11 Bow with laserpointer
(3 BP)

Regeneration 5

1 Karma left.
7 counterspelling dice.
52 soak dice with cheesy armor on top of your vessel.
Regenerates.
13 P base damage, 12 dice for ranged attacks.
Still a bit cheesy conversion BP-Karma.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 12:40 AM

At which point I would explain that to the player in question... but again, we do not have this problem in our campaign... we don't create characters to "break" the campaign... In this regard, I would expect the free spirit to have constraints placed upon him by the GM, which is exactly what would happen...

Problem Solved...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 12:46 AM

Pleas explain to me how a "Flavor" or concept character is inherently Munchkin... I have seen a very large number of character, several built by myself, that are Concept, and are definitely NOT Munchkin...

Again, you are making it sound as if ALL "concept", or as you put it "Flavor", characters are a bad thing... when in fact they are not... Now, I am sure that you can go extremely overboard in Shadowrun making the crazy powerful characters (26+ Dice Pools with 40 Dice Soaks) as have been desribed in other topics... BUT NOT EVERYONE DOES SO, or even cares to do so!!!

Please stop lumping everyone into the same category...

Windmills Indeed...

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 12:51 AM

My points are:
1)KarmaGen for high cost critters is cheesy at best.
2)BP cost is the only inhibiting factor for spirit builds. That they are great when built without that cost is obvious.
3)OP asked for help with building a spirit for a running group that used the BP system so KarmaGen would make him way too powerful.
4)There's no need to constantly say how bad they are because they might be lacking a bit in the straight in your face sorcery department.
5)I crusade against developer brainfarts that in the case of karmagen ruined the basically best way to create a shadowrunner.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 01:07 AM

I have no problem with concept characters. Just pay the BP cost (and if you really consider what spirits are capable of, i repeat myself, those 250 BP aren't that far off)and create your character.
Unhappy that you can't start with sorcery group 6 and the attributes you are used to from your mage?
Maybe would be a tad powerful for something as intangible as a spirit in a 400 BP campaign.
In a high power campaign you'll get more BP so that isn't a problem.

If you need karmagen to create a concept character odds are that the concept is "I fart bullets".

/edit
and i find it rather ridiculous that people complain about how underpowered spirits built under BP are in a thread where a lot of viable builds are posted.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 01:28 AM

You know what they say about Assumptions... Your assumption on Karmagen concepts is WAY off (at least in my case)... and exactly what mage are you referring to above?

I have only ever made one (1, and only 1) character with the Karmagen method... All others have been made with BP Method... Our GM Prefers BP.

That being said... there is no need for a Magic 6, Sorcery Group 6 (which you cannot do at character creation anyway, in either system) Build... My Last Mage had 2 Magic and 3 in Spellcasting (so much for your vaunted theories on how I create magic characters) and he is very effective for his concept...

Anyway, a useable spirit can be built with BP (no doubt about that)... the only thing is that it will tend to be highly specialized as compared to a more generous build using Karmagen... just because it has more to spend does not necessarily make it automatically overpowered...

Anyway, Just my two cents...

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 02:00 AM

There is no 'my case'.
A system is either broken or it isn't.
A 250 BP/500 Karma freebie is for obvious reasons.
Whether or not you (ab)use this is irrelevant.

That was a rhetoric question not adressing anyone explicitly.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 03:07 AM

Not to be an ass but...

There is NO PERFECT system... ANY System can be broken if you try hard enough (or not so hard in some cases), so lets just put that argument to rest...

As for broken character builds, they are only broken if you disagree with them and STILL allow them into your game... as a GM, you have total control of what is allowed into play, if you think something stretches the boundries of the world as you see it, don't let it into the game... or work with your player to collaboratively make it acceptable...

That is what it truly boilds down to in the end... not every one pushes the system to its outer limits, some people enjoy that kind of game, some don't... the only limit, then, is what you allow as a GM... if something is broken in your game, well, you have no one to blame but yourself, you allowed it into the game after all...

What more truly need be said?

My Two Cents

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 03:40 PM

And there lies your misconception.

I don't even need to try, I just need to want to play a high cost species and if my group happens to use KarmaGen i get such huge freebies.

There's a huge difference between being able to min/max the shit out of a build system and not being able not to do so.
The latter is what I (and many others) have problems with.
The alternate creation rules appear so half assed that they probably have been written during lunch break.

Posted by: Mäx Apr 10 2009, 05:13 PM

Nothing makes Metavariant,shifters,AI:s and free spirits automatically more powerful the vanilla humans.
It's all about how you use the karma given.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 05:35 PM

Sure, I can always take the extra effort and dump those 500 Karma into completely useless Knowledge skills and gear i throw away right after chargen.

To repeat myself once more because it apparently is very hard to understand:
The only reason to have character creation rules is to have fixed boundaries as to what individual characters are capable of.
If you say "uh I don't care, the players will surely create something that is fun for all" then you don't need any rules.
Rules that cater to that mentality are redundant.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 10 2009, 07:11 PM

There are an enormous number of dimensions along which the boundaries of character creation can be established in any character creation method. It's up to the group playing how they wish to work it out to have fun together. Your choice and perception aren't going to be the same as others. Even if it becomes a very restrictive set of choices in the character creation method, there always exists the option of not using it at all. Keep in mind I'm also not only including the written explicit rules of character creation, but the social contract of the gaming group itself. It's up to each group to decide.

While it's informative to give your opinion and analysis, I'm going to make up my own mind.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 07:56 PM

Would you guys also welcome a rule that states:
"Male characters receive +1 on all attributes" ?

Posted by: Ryu Apr 10 2009, 09:01 PM

There are enough karma-vs-BP threads, can we continue with free spirits? Another interesting angle is how you spend the knowledge points. On one hand you can go really esoteric, on the other your spirit could be interested in metahuman life, and spy on almost everyone, and know everything. What is it?

For Mushu I´m tempted to add a "Celestial Bureaucracy" skill, and try to use it for some legwork amongst spirits.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 09:09 PM

I don't know if too esoteric is good for a shadowrunning spirit.
After all it should have some interest in the mundane world or it would've picked a circle of mages or something like that instead of a team of hobos to begin with.

Posted by: Neraph Apr 11 2009, 04:04 PM

That is a stroke of genius. Just don't forget Ettiquette (Celestial Bureaucracy).

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 11 2009, 06:02 PM

Inspired, I Like It a lot...

Posted by: DocMorbius Apr 14 2009, 06:32 PM

Thanks guys you have been a great help (although a bit off topic in places, )

The 14 disspell dice come from the 4 counterspell + 2 for combat spec + 6 magic + 2 for metamagic shielding (with initiation twice).

I will have to fix up the BP cost from the force 6 (thanks for spotting that one) -

as for the possesion one I think you cant have free spirit's that possess, that and inhabitation or some such (dont have the book on me as I am over seas at the moment so I cant check)

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2009, 02:27 AM

They can be from Materialization or Possession Traditions, but NOT from Inhabitation Traditions...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2009, 02:31 AM

And there you go again making some assumptions that may or may not be true...

I would say that the 250 points (not 500) that you do not pay in Karmagen, to play a free spirit, would allow you to diversify your spirit character (make him more well rounded), and you are saying that the points will be immediately used to Min-Max the spirit character (Make him as powerful as he can be made)... Different approach altogether...

I guess I can see how your games would tend to go then...

Posted by: Neraph Apr 15 2009, 03:43 PM

Double the BP cost for Karmagen. So a 250 BP Free Spirit is 500 Karma.


You don't add your magic to counterspelling. It's just Counterspelling + Resistance roll (IE: Counterspelling + willpower against Manabolt).