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Posted by: Cardul Apr 9 2009, 12:07 PM

You know, I was thinking about something. Previously, it was beneficial if you were going to be burning edge alot to have only 1 or 2 points of Edge. Now, however, with the Karma Cost increase...

Mr Lucky(human) with his Metagentic Improvement: Edge, Exceptional Attribute: Edge, and a 9 Edge...is NEVER going to want to burn that edge! He is going to only want to spend it.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 9 2009, 12:37 PM

Metagentic Improvement: Edge... WTF? Please tell me that's a joke and Augmentation didn't fail to exclude that from list of attributes you can improved...

-paws

Posted by: the_dunner Apr 9 2009, 12:52 PM

I believe Cardul's referring to Metagenetic Improvement from the list of Runner's Companion Metagenetic Qualities, rather than Genetic Optimization from Augmentation. Regardless, both of those are explicitly for changing the maximum natural attribute rating for a Physical or Mental attribute. Edge is neither a Physical nor a Mental Attribute, so it would not qualify for either of these improvements.

Posted by: Starmage21 Apr 9 2009, 01:00 PM

His point still stands. Mr Lucky is never goign to burn his edge again. Yet, he's still quite awesome at everything so long as he has edge to spend on tasks.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 9 2009, 01:12 PM

Ah ha! Okay, that makes much more sense.

Either way, Mr. Lucky will need to get really picky about burning Edge.

-paws
The caffeine is finally kicking in...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 03:26 AM

In this, I am in total agreement... but then again, a character with 8 Edge is indeed Mr. LUCKY... (we got one in our campaign, and he is definitely Lucky)

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 10 2009, 03:30 AM

while 40 karma is worse, 24 karma was nothing to sneeze at. I don't think I'd be burning edge as mr. lucky except as a last resort in either case.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 10 2009, 03:39 AM

What Shinobi Killfist Said...

Posted by: wind_in_the_stones Apr 10 2009, 03:50 AM

Mr. Lucky should never get to the point where he has to burn edge. Add seven dice to your ten, and use rule of 6? Likely a critical success. Hand of God? Your new edge is 6. Sucks to be you.

Posted by: Cain Apr 10 2009, 05:41 AM

I've seen characters built around burning Edge, and they tend to go for a low Edge in any case, sometimes backed up by the Bad Luck Flaw (since it doesn't affect burnt Edge). The Mr. Lucky's don't tend to burn Edge in any case.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 10 2009, 02:28 PM

Mr. Lucky really doesn't need to burn edge most of the time. There is little that getting +8 dice (rerolls 6s) does not solve where burning edge does.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 10 2009, 02:44 PM

Exactly, under the original costs Mr. Lucky really tended to only burn Edge when facing certain death or when played by Mr. Stupid.

It was always a sufficient deterrent. The wall just got a little higher now and the aversion to burning Edge is pushed even further down the spectrum so that Mr. Lucky's cousin, Ms. Moderately Fortunate (Edge 4) is also quite unlikely to burn Edge.

A good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 10 2009, 02:58 PM

The wall hasn't got higher, with the higher Karma rewards it has been lowered if anything.

Posted by: Cain Apr 10 2009, 06:15 PM

You may be right. At 9 karma a session, it'll take 5 sessions to restore your Edge point. At 5 karma a session, it'd take 5 sessions to reach 24 karma, the previous point.

That's still 5 sessions, though, which is over a month's worth of gaming.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 10 2009, 06:31 PM

How many players expect to be burning a point of edge every 5 sessions?

Posted by: Larme Apr 10 2009, 07:26 PM

Omg, forget Mr. Lucky! I want to see the Mr. Stupid build!

Posted by: Method Apr 10 2009, 07:30 PM

About as many as build a character reliant on a high edge attributes...

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail...

Posted by: Dwight Apr 10 2009, 08:38 PM

To an extent that is true, but it will still chew deeper into your Skill advancement, right? I haven't gone through the SR4A changes with a fine tooth comb but I think that is how it play out? In terms of the number of sessions, as Cain laid out, it's the same. But those 5 sessions of advancement will cost you more Skill dice.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 10 2009, 10:36 PM

It is more a state of mind than an actual build. Although I could be wrong on that? I invite anyone and everyone to prove my error!

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 10 2009, 11:21 PM

No.
5 sessions @ 5 Karma will earn you 25 Karma, -24 to increase Edge to 8; you have 1 net gain Karma.
5 sessions @ 9 Karma will earn you 45 Karma, -40 to increase Edge to 8; you have 5 net gain Karma.

Do not try to argue 8 Karma a session, because that should happen under SR4A approximately the same amount as 4 Karma a session under SR4, & SR4 will come out even further behind.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 12:26 AM

You don't go backwards any faster, maybe even a hair slower (largely depends on how Karma awards really break down), but relative to not burning Edge you slow your advancement down more.

The math you are missing is that it is still 16 extra Karma gone. Skills still cost the same Karma, right? So in effect you have lost more dice. With SR4A the character that avoids burning Edge will advance their Skills (along with the other Karma purchase benefits like Positive/Negative Qualities and binding foci), and therefore their dice pools, at an increased rate compared with under the SR4 rules.

The Mr. Stupid Gambit just got less optimal.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 12:30 AM

Yes, skills cost the same. That is not important. What is important is that they cost less relative to Karma earned or spent on attributes, & thus advance faster, regardless of if you are replacing burned Edge or not.

And the entire point of this is that burning Edge on Mr. Lucky is now less costly in other areas than it was in SR4.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 12:40 AM

Only in an illusionary way. In truth it costs more. The extra cost is just hiding behind the smoke screen of advancement in general speeding up.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 01:59 AM

No it doesn't.
You have diminishing return, so while you may be more behind in peripheral skill under the new system you will be closer to your team mates in regard to your main skills.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 02:21 AM

Because depth in Skill base isn't an asset? That's crazy talk, especially Mr. Lucky. His strength lies in flexibility. A broader Skill base plays to that strength.

Even specialists tend to take a fair amount of karma to fill out their primary field in a meaningful way.

I'm not even counting Positive Qualities, because gaining those are more game table specific.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 03:28 AM

Just use the aforementioned numbers.
Old rules:
Mr Lucky can afford a new skill every 20 sessions.

New rules:
Mr Lucky can afford a new skill every 4 sessions.

So he obviously gains 5 times as many skills as before whereas the rest of his team merely doubles.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 03:39 AM

Under the assumption that he is Burning Edge once every 5 sessions - which is what this is about.

If he does not need to replace Edge, then he still advances his skills twice as fast as the SR4 equivalent.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 03:54 AM

Thank you for demonstrating my point, you are letting the smoke screen of overall increased advancement get in your eyes.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 04:02 AM

Your point is entirely ignoring comparison, & thus irrelevant to this discussion.

We are not talking about rate of advancement, but rate of advancement in comparison between SR4 & SR4A. As such, the relative cost of increasing Edge from 7 to 8 has gone down.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 04:04 AM

If you want to look at it from the standpoint of not playing Karma to get to Edge 8, the cost looks even worse (in both SR4 and SR4A), depending on the character build method used. The Standard BP price to have that very high Edge is, to say the least, very pricy. So you already have thrown optimal choice under the bus ... and after burning the point you don't even get the spending die benefit of it.

Let's call that the Mr. Stupid Gambit:Chargen Variation.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 04:08 AM

Yet again, you are trying to turn the topic to something unrelated to this discussion. Character generation has no relevance whatsoever to the cost of replacing lost Edge.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 04:19 AM

On the contrary I'm actually comparing the real costs. When Mr. Stupid plays with a [more optimally run] Mr. Lucky he will fairly shortly find himself overshadowed and moreso in SR4A. Fifteen sessions in Mr. Lucky has roughly an extra 120 Karma spent on advancing other Skills and such whereas Mr. Stupid has [maybe] an extra 3 successful tests. Prior it was only 72 Karma (though that's still a hell of a lot).

Now the 120 SR4A Karma will buy the same dice as the 72 SR4 Karma if it was spent on Stats only. However when you consider that it is extremely unlikely for the character's Karma to be spent entirely on Stats through the life of the character, instead a mixture of these (unless this player is going to make a concerted ongoing effort to keep his PC back), the cost ratio of burning SR4A Edge and SR4 Edge is going to sit somewhere between 1:1 and 1.67:1. Where exactly depends on a few factors, although for Mr. Lucky it's more likely it'll be higher than with the 'average' character because of the aforementioned advantages with the broad Skill base.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 04:20 AM

It wasn't relevant .... until you tried to ignore the cost of burning Edge (which is what this topic is about BTW) by shifting the cost into character generation. Stop trying to do that and the character generation side-trip goes away.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 04:27 AM

At no point in this entire thread did I mention, even indirectly, character generation, until you attempted to shift the debate.


And yet again, we are not in any way comparing the cost of playing a 'Mr. Lucky' vs. 'Mr. Stupid'. We are only comparing the cost of advancement between SR4 & SR4A, given the same set of circumstances.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 04:33 AM

So how did the character get their Edge up to 8? Transubstantiation? You failed at the basic realization that asset expended = cost.



... in a way that ignores the real costs of burning Edge, AKA the topic of the OP.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 04:45 AM

We know that burning Edge with an attribute of 8 is going to cost a shitlode more than not burning it to begin with. That is not the fucking topic of debate - the question was if it cost more in SR4A than it did in SR4, and after taking into account the increase in Karma awards, the answer is no, it actually costs less.

This has never, at any point, been between 'Burn or not to Burn', nor has it in any way been about how the Edge 8 was obtained, only what comes after that.


Everything you have said is either irrelevant or false, so just shut up.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 05:02 AM

... when calculated in a fundamentally flawed manner.

I'll try spell this out for you in another way since you are having trouble following:

Cost in SR4: 24 Karma [or equivalent]
Cost in SR4A: 40 Karma [or equivalent]

Karma in SR4 buys slightly more on average because Stats cost less. The ratio of SR4A Karma purchase power to SR4 Karma purchase power falls somewhere in the range between 60% (if you only bought Stats during the life of the character) and 100% (if you only bought non-Stats during the life of the character). Since purchasing only Stats during the life of the character is an extremely hypothetical and unlikely situation the working assuming is something >60%. Since >60% of 40 (SR4A cost) is > 24 (SR4 cost), therefore true SR4A cost > SR4 cost.

Sorry, them's the real numbers. You've lost track of what the real costs are.



You really need to read the first post [of this thread], again.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 11 2009, 06:01 AM

Actually, Dwight's point is valid. He's talking about opportunity cost. Not only is there a net change in the amount of karma left over after purchasing back your edge, you also lose whatever you could have purchased with that karma had you not burnt your edge.

Let's translate that karma loss into loss of skill points:

SR4 - 5 sessions, 25 karma.
SR4A - 5 sessions, 45 karma.
SR4 - 1/4th of a skill raise to 2, but loses 6 skill raises to 2. Net loss: 5 & 3/4th skill raises to 2.
SR4A - 1&1/4 skill raises to 2, but loses 10 kill raises to 2. Net loss: 8 & 3/4th skill raises to 2.

The end result is that while the SR4A edge burner has 5 more karma, he loses the equivalent of 3 skill raises to 2 more than the SR4 edge burner.

This also effects everything else you buy with karma. Let's look at attribute raises, and skill groups:

SR4 - Gain's 1/6th attribute/1/10 skill group raise to 2, loses 4 attribute/2 & 2/5 skill group raises to 2. Net loss: 3 & 5/6th attribute/ 2 & 3/10 skill group raises to 2.
SR4A - Gain's 1/2 attribute/skill group raise to 2, loses 4 attribute/skill group raises to 2. Net loss: 3 & 1/2 attribute/skill group raises to 2.

The SR4A edge burner loses 1/3rd less attribute raises to 2 than the SR4 edge burner, but loses 1 & 1/10th more in skill group raises.

The SR4A edge burner would have to stick to raising attributes in order to gain an advantage over the SR4 edge burner. So, I'm begining to think that his karma gain isn't worth it.

<Edited because I combined the two without account for the fact that skill group costs don't change between the two editions. SR4 group costs were not 6 for a skill group of 2>

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 06:45 AM

@Dwight - I was referring to the discussion regarding advancement. Even if I was not, go and read again - the original post was an observational statement, not a discussion, & the initial replies where similar, simply saying the Mr. Lucky build was not intended to burn Edge to begin with.

@Tunnel Rat - No, it does not have relevance to what was going on. If you had bothered to read my replies, you would see I had already covered this. It was not about burning Edge or not - it was about which system (SR4 or SR4A) was more costly if you did burn Edge. As you have a greater amount of remaining Karma in SR4A (& thus could actually raise a skill), SR4 was more costly.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 11 2009, 07:40 AM

I DID read your posts. I'm saying that you're wrong, It is more costly in SR4A to burn edge because what you lose far exceeds what you gain. In order to determine which is more 'costly', you have to do a cost analysis. You can't properly analyze costs when you ignore losses. Your net loss is less in SR4, therefore, it costs less to burn edge in SR4.

Posted by: Rad Apr 11 2009, 07:46 AM

The ones playing Ghost Cartels...

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 12:52 PM

No it isn't.
You don't get something like 2 dice per 5 karma spent, return is diminishing, that's why you're better off now.

Skill raises to 1; Karma per dice gained 2
Skill raises to 2; Karma per dice gained 4
Skill raises to 3; Karma per dice gained 6
Skill raises to 4; Karma per dice gained 8
Skill raises to 5; Karma per dice gained 10
Skill raises to 6; Karma per dice gained 12

As long as Mr Lucky can afford those early stages he'll be closer to the other chars then old Mr Lucky that couldn't afford them even though the rest of the team are now spending more. The point is they are spending more at a way higher cost.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 01:59 PM

The extra 16 Karma lost is always enough to buy from 5 to 6, unless you are buying a Skill Group and that extra 16 Karma simply makes it more likely/quicker to buy the Group up. For example 24 Karma in SR4 by itself is not enough to go from Group 5 to Group 6, the 40 Karma in SR4A is plus enough to a single Skill 4-5, open a Skill Group, etc. Not all Skills are at the top end of the scale at the same time. So the escalating cost for a single skill doesn't even have bearing on a single Edge burn and has even less over the long term. This is particularly relevant for Mr. Lucky because he can leverage the broad Skill base that includes lower level Skills even more than the average character.

It comes down to 40 Karma in SR4A buys more overall character improvement than 24 Karma in SR4. I guess you can't work your way through the logic and math of my last post? I tried to keep it simple. Maybe you have to actually play Mr. Stupid vs Mr. Lucky through a few burns to have it come home to you? *shrug*

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 03:59 PM

What logic and what math?
All you say is that 40 is more then 24 which is right and then you rest your case which is wrong.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 11 2009, 04:44 PM

That extra 16 karma is covered by the doubled rate of Karma gain.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 06:15 PM

Thats appears to be where you are falling down, not understanding the basic construction of the comparison in question. When you are comparing the impact of burning Edge in SR4 vs SR4A you've got two ratios:

Mr. Stupid (SR4)
-------------------
Mr. Lucky (SR4)

and

Mr. Stupid (SR4A)
---------------------
Mr. Lucky (SR4A)

Then you compare the ratios to see which version of the rules create the wider gap between burning and not burning Edge. What happens is that the extra Karma/session appears in the second ratio on both the top AND bottom, numerator and denominator. If you stroll your memory back to late Grade school, that factor then cancels out. It becomes effectively irrelevant in this comparison.



You are challenging that the purchasing power of the Karma spent on the Edge burn (whether spent literally or in effect) lies somewhere over 60% and under 100%? That you then use that to give convert the SR4A Karma into the SR4 equivalent. That's pretty damn basic. If you can't grasp that then yeah, I guess you are going to have to play Mr. Stupid and have the math kick him in the crotch to get your attention.


See Larme, it's not a build. It's a state of mind.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 06:32 PM

No. The cost of something going down does not make another thing more expensive. The only thing that increases the cost is if the cost in relation to available resources increases. The resources is Karma, which has increased by 80%, and the cost in question is attribute advancement, which has increased by 66%. Thus, the cost of attribute advancement has actually gone down, not up.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 06:33 PM

Except it is not over 60% and under 100%

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 06:36 PM

Well... if you are willing to work at this instead of telling me to "just shut up", let's look at that to see where you are getting off track. So what do you think it is and how do you calculate that value?

Posted by: Larme Apr 11 2009, 06:40 PM

Nuh uh, I was thinking about it last night, and you could make such a build! Make a character with Uneducated and the mental disability flaw... You could also use some custom flaws like Lack of Common Sense (the GM can force your character to do the exact wrong thing at key moments), and maybe a few different varieties of Poor Self Control. You'd need to exceed the 35 point flaw limit, which would be cool cuz you'd end up with a more powerful build, but he'd be too stupid to do anything right and would probably get killed or get the team killed. That would be sweet

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 06:58 PM

HAHA, well if you are going the custom route you should port the Stupid Trait from Burning Wheel (Traits effectively analogous to Qualities). Yes, it's actually named "Stupid". It adds +Ob1 (+1 Threshold) to all attempts at social Skills used by the character and used on the character. You aren't going to convince anyone of your wrongheaded ways but damned if they are going to be able to turn our your lightbulb on to defect you from your path. Then there are the ones like Atravieso (a propensity to fiddle with stuff you shouldn't touch, particularly delicate or fragile things). I've played with that Trait in a fellow group member's PC. The turdheaps that Trait would land us in were epic.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 06:59 PM

Well... lets see.
Attributes in SR4A advance ~14% faster than they did in SR4.
Everything else in SR4A advances 80% faster than it did in SR4.

Because 'everything else' is a lot more than 'attributes', I would estimate the overall increase in advancement rate to be ~65-70%


How did I get these numbers? By not ignoring half the equation.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 07:06 PM

Whoa, whoa, back up. That isn't addressing my question (EDIT: and the portion of my post were quoting that you said "Except it is not over 60% and under 100%"). You've gone off track completely here before your post started.

Again, what is the purchasing power of SR4A's Karma relative to SR4's?

To phrase the question another, more mathematical terms, way if you have y Karma in SR4 and x Karma in SR4A such that y creates the same amount of advancement in SR4 that x creates in SR4A, what is the value of x/y?

EDIT: BTW...



... that isn't particularly helpful. Specific sources, please.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 07:16 PM

I just answered the fucking question. You are ignoring fully half the equation in your supposedly accurate calculations - aka failing to take into account the increased rate of Karma gain. 5 Karma SR4 is equivalent to 9 Karma SR4A. Until you get that, none of your math is even remotely close to accurate.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 07:26 PM

Well it doesn't look like it. Because the text had you talking about something different and the number you approximated, 65%-70% is in agreement with my statement about being somewhere between 60% and 100%



Ah, no. I explained why it cancels out when you bring it into the calculations. It is on both the numerator and denominator of the SR4A ratio I mentioned earlier. So it gets factored out. Putting it in or leaving it out has no change on the outcome.



LOL, OK see that doesn't come out to 65%-70% at all. Besides being flat out incorrect values to try use to calculate the difference in purchasing power of a point of Karma for advancement.


EDIT: Well it does slightly affect it but that gets into a nuance, and isn't the primary consideration at all. ((EDIT2: Certainly still falling inside the rough range I gave, which really is a range in practice)) I get the feeling that you, given your swearing, you've shut down your reasoning skills so it is pretty much a lose trying to get more detail ... or to even continue talking to you. Thus giving Larme a working demonstration of the Stupid Trait in action.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 07:32 PM

In the opposite fucking direction, yes.

Except you explained absolutely nothing. And it has a significant change on the outcome.

So you obviously have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about.


The value of Karma is determined by both its availability, & the cost of what it can be used to gain. You are ignoring the availability, & thus nothing you have said is correct. Stop trying to fucking bullshit this & go take some economic & math courses.

I am done with your shit.

Posted by: Method Apr 11 2009, 07:36 PM

Um... yeah. You guys should probably drop it.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 07:38 PM

Wait, before you storm off can I ask your mathematics schooling/training history? I know "real world" problems do present red herrings, and difficulties gathering info, that you don't always see in a classroom question (at least in the same form), and that those skills can fade over the years when they aren't being used. But it'd be really sad if you had basic high school training recently much less post-secondary. :/

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 11 2009, 08:30 PM

Perhaps this will help.

I'm going to create a 'Consumer Product Index' for SR4 and SR4A. Basically, I'm finding out how much you can 'buy' with your karma by find out the average karma cost.

Let's begin with the SR4 costs...
New Specialization: 2 karma
New knowledge/language: 2 karma
New Active skill: 4 karma
New active skill group: 10 karma
(I'm going to say that the skill/attriubute bought is going to go from the range of 2-6 for simplicity, skill groups improve in the 2-4 range.)
Improving a knowlege/language skill by 1: 10.5 karma (Range 3 to 18, averaged to 10.5)
Improving an active skill by 1: 8 karma (range from 4-12, average 8)
Improving an active skill group by 1: 15 karma (range from 10 to 20, average 15)
Improving an attribute by 1: 12 karma (range from 6-18, average 12)
New positive quality: 2 Karma (This is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
Remove negative quality: 2 karma (Again, this is the karma cost of 1 'BP' of the quality)
New Spell: 5 Karma
New complex form: 2 karma
Improving a complex form by 1: 4 karma (Assuming range of 2-6, 2-6 karma cost respectfully, average is 4 karma)

The 'Consumer Price Index' for SR4 would be . I got that number by adding together my karma costs that I calculated above, and got the average cost. (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+12+2+2+5+2+4=78.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 78.5/13=6.04)
Calculating the CPI for SR4A is simple, because most of the numbers won't change. The numbers that will change are the attribute prices.

Improving an attribute by 1: 20 karma (range from 10-30, average 20)

This means that our index will be higher: (2+2+4+10+10.5+8+15+20+2+2+5+2+4=86.5 Which we divide by the number of different 'costs'. 86.5/13=6.65)
So, we have a CPI of 6.04 for SR4, and a CPI of 6.65 for SR4A.

Our SR4 character has 5 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (5/6.04=0.83) 0.83 points worth of 'goods".
Our SR4A character has 9 karma at the end of the session. That can buy (9/6.65=1.35) 1.35 points worth of 'goods'.

What this tells us is that characters in SR4A can buy more skills, attributes, and other miscellaneous karma purchases than a character could in SR4. So, your purchasing power goes up.

So, what is the 'cost' of buying edge from 7-8?

For our SR4 character, 24 karma which buys (24/6.04=3.97) 3.97 points worth of goods.
For our SR4A character, 40 karma which buys (40/6.65=6.02) 6.02 points worth of goods.

The point here isn't that you lose the karma when you buyback edge. The point is that you increased your loss in 'goods' by 150%. Because the true cost of burning edge lies in the value of what you could have bought instead of buying back edge. This is why I say that it is more expensive to burn edge in SR4A.

Posted by: Bull Apr 11 2009, 08:45 PM

For those not following along at home, the above is an example of "going a little too far".

Boys, play nice. Lets not insult each other, nor bait each other. Thanks.

Bull

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 08:59 PM

And that is not the point at all.
The reason why you and that halfwit that resorts to call everyone that disagrees with him an idiot are wrong is that there is no average consumer price.
You don't buy averages, you buy a skill level and the point is that this is way more expensive when your target level is 6 then when your target level is 1.
It is exactly this what makes new mr lucky better off then old mr lucky.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 11 2009, 09:19 PM

(emphasis mine)

I have been skimming this discussion more rapidly as the arguments became more vitriolic, so please forgive me if I am missing something, but are you suggesting that the following is true for non-zero values of Z?

X/Y = (X+Z)/(Y+Z)

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 09:21 PM

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 09:23 PM

XZ/YZ = X/Y

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factor


EDIT: In this case Z, if you apply it in the second ratio, is the ratio of Karma earned in SR4A to Karma earned in SR4. So 9/5 (nominally), or 1.8 if you want to express it as a decimal. Because both characters gain that extra Karma.

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 11 2009, 09:30 PM

But that's not how the two versions of SR4 (and of this argument) go. Each situation has an initial state (X_I and Y_I). To this is added the karma from SR4, which gives X and Y. SR4A adds an extra bit of karma, which is the Z.

Posted by: Larme Apr 11 2009, 09:35 PM

I think that a consumer price index is the correct way to look at it. You can't just compare buying back edge to buying back skills. That makes the faulty assumption that these are the only two things worth spending karma on. It ignores the fact that a good character may want to make significant expenditures in other attributes and qualities (especially martial arts).

What we want to know the value of the karma. It's true that there is no absolute way of determining this, but a price index is the closest estimate. But "you don't buy averages" misses the point. The point is, the index of what you can buy estimates the value of your assets. It's not a perfect metric, but it's better than your option, which is apparently nothing. The reason you think that Mr. Lucky is better off when burning edge is because you're relying on what is essentially a skewed consumer price index, one which leaves out any consideration of buying up attributes (as opposed to just replacing burnt edge) and buying qualities.

Now, if it were me, I'd leave out spells and complex forms from the index, because we're talking about Mr. Lucky. In order to afford high Edge and reasonably well rounded skills and attributes, Mr. Lucky is typically mundane. I'm not sure how this would change the average -- it might not, since it applies to both SR4, and SR4A. The point is, karma is more valuable in SR4A, so throwing it down the crapper is a worse idea in SR4A than it was in SR4. You can argue, of course, about having higher karma awards in SR4A. But this will vary from table to table, depending on the length, complexity, and difficulty of the runs undertaken. Karma awards are a variable factor, impossible to pin down with any certainty. Karma awards could create inflation, which would negate the differences in the price index between versions, but it could just as easily create deflation, and make Mr. Lucky even worse off.

PS. Isn't it a little bit astounding that you would call someone halfwit right after an admin told you to cool it? Especially because your beef with this person is that he calls people stupid. Hypocrite, much?

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 11 2009, 09:38 PM

It's http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-Intelligent_Design.mp3.
(Mild language warning)

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 09:43 PM

I will attempt to explain this in a simplistic view one final time.

SR4 Karma Gain = 5. This is how much of the resource is available.

SR4A Karma Gain = 9. Again, how much is available.

Thus, SR4 5 Karma, for matters of comparison, is equivalent to SR4A 9 Karma.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 1.66 levels of attribute advancement (5/3)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 1.80 levels of attribute advancement (9/5)

SR4A, your attributes advance at a ~8% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


SR4, 5 Karma will buy you 2.5 levels of skill advancement (5/2)

SR4A, 9 Karma will buy you 4.5 levels of skill advancement (9/2)

SR4A, your skills advance at a ~80% faster rate than the SR4 equivalent.


Everything else is at the same ratio of skills (80%). Because of the faster rate of advancement in everything, burning Edge in SR4A is less detrimental than burning Edge in SR4.


This is, of course, all calculated at the higher suggested Karma award values. If we use the lower suggested awards ( 4 / 8 ), it comes out even further in favor of SR4A.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 11 2009, 09:44 PM

False. Karma awards increased 80% therefore Karma is worth about 80% less each. The only cost that went up was Attributes, which went up 60%. Therefore, buying an attribute is about 20% less expensive.

Think of it like this:

You're paid $5 an hour to do some job.
Current Cost of Living is $200 / wk. (note: $5 / hr. * 40 = 200)

Now, the economy rolls along and blam, inflation.
Now you're paid $9 an hour to do the same job. Great!
Unfortunately the Cost of Living went up to $320.

Hmm...9 * 40 = 360. 360 is $40 more than 320.

OMG! EXTRA!

Posted by: Larme Apr 11 2009, 09:49 PM

Ok, here's the disconnect. I looked at the SR4A table, and I don't see where it gives you 80% more karma. The one major change I spotted was that you get 1 karma per mission objective. Is there a formula where you figure out the average number of objectives in a mission? Or is there a part I'm missing that suggests how many there should be? As far as I can tell, SR4A gives a table which returns a variable rate of karma based on differing, well, variables. It's not a set amount. There's no guarantee of 9 karma per adventure any more than there was a guarantee of 5 karma per adventure in SR4. Unless I'm missing something, in which case I would really appreciate a page cite.

And whether or not I'm missing anything, I fully acknowledged that the level of karma given per adventure could very well change the calculus. Why are you being so hostile when making a point that I already conceded? Especially when an admin just told you to put a lid on it not one hour ago?

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 09:49 PM

Ah, that's how you do subscript. The BB Code Help page is failing to open for me.

What are you imagining the "initial state" represents? Because the actual value of the karma earned doesn't change what the karma buys, and therefore it doesn't actually value the karma burnt.

Well it sort of influences it but only slightly because the curves that define that relationship are close approximations of a straight line as long as Karma is flowing and you haven't run out of things to spend Karma on. Meaning you are playing the game in a manner that earns some semblance of the rules guidelines and you haven't yet earned whatever 1000's of Karma you need to cap all the Skills and effectively run out of Qualities to spend it on.

But more importantly how are you envisioning constructing that ratio to represent the actual advancement?

Posted by: pbangarth Apr 11 2009, 09:54 PM

Well... shit. That makes sense. Why didn't you say so before?

Posted by: Larme Apr 11 2009, 09:56 PM

I agree that it makes sense too, but can anyone explain where it tells me I get 9 karma? I can't find that reference, and that's the problem I'm having.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 11 2009, 10:00 PM

It doesn't matter whether you go by averages, or you pick a specific point. Let's say we talk about raising a skill to 6. That costs 12 points, right?

By SR4 that's 1/2 of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 3/10th of the karma you spend to buyback your edge to 8.

Using an average is important, because you can *also* use that edge to buy a different attribute at 8.

By SR4 that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.
By SR4A that's 100% of the karma spent to buyback your edge to 8.

By this example, one could make the argument that there is no difference between the cost between SR4 and SR4A. Which, is misleading because we all know that you won't be buying many attributes at level 8, and most people would buy other things (like skills) with their karma.

The idea behind using an average is to incorporate the lack of change in the cost of everything else into the change in the cost of attributes. That creates a more correct interpretation of how things changed than just taking one single factor.



Actually, I believe he's suggesting that:

X/Y = (X * Z)/(Y * Z)

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 10:00 PM

Oh wait, I'm sorry. In what you are proposing X_I = Y_I, because both the characters using the same rules are starting from the same initial point, right? So

(X_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = (Y_I + Z)/(Y_I +Z) = 1

Again, all gone. "It's math, bitches" indeed.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 10:17 PM

This makes me laugh. Synner (or maybe Adam) said 8-9 Karma average in SR4A. When it was brought to his attention that this was not implemented in SR4A, he said it was accidentally left out, & they changed the Karma Awards chart to reflect this change in the updated PDF.

I now go to look at it, & the Karma Awards does noticeably increase the Karma Awards, but the description accompanying it is still identical to SR4 (aka 1 Karma for completing 2/3 of objectives, not 1 per objective - suggested award 4-5, not 8-9).

That's just fucking hilarious. They fix the table, while ignoring the accompanying text.

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 11 2009, 10:25 PM

That's exactly where the misunderstanding is.
Mr Lucky buys 1, The reference dude of the team 4,5,6.
Mr Lucky adds 8 dice to vital roles so he doesn't need high skills.
The other characters can't constantly roll edge so they require higher skills.
That's why Mr Lucky is well and good if he can afford to raise a skill to a low level whereas the random team member chosen for reference needs high levels.
You don't pick one specific point, you pick two.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 10:25 PM

Unfortunately that analogy entirely fails to translate for a comparison of burning Edge. Because:
1) you haven't built it in
2) if you did try to you'd have to rework it somehow so that SR "cost of living" would actually be $0 for Mr. Lucky and $240 and $400 for Mr. Stupid in SR4 an SR4A respectively, and Karma expenditures were all disposable income

Then things get really confused (for you) because for the disposable income you have to bring in the purchasing power factor I mentioned earlier, which is NOT actually influenced by the Karma available because for at least several hundred Karma you are in you have an extremely elastic supply of Skills to purchase up ... in truth it doesn't even follow free market pricing, it is an artificially set price.

An artificially set price set in the rules that sets in stone the value of Karma to purchase advancement in SR4A at something with a lower boundary of 60% (prior Stat cost 3 Karma/point, new cost 5 Karma/point) and an upper boundary of 100% (prior Skill cost 2 Karma/Skill point and 5 Karma/Group point, same as the new cost) of the Karma in SR4.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 11 2009, 10:30 PM

And yet again, you go wrong in your assumption that we care about "to Burn or not to Burn". We don't give a damn - it is fucking obvious that it is far more cost effective not to burn.

What we care about is, under the assumption that you do burn, is it better or worse under the new rules?

Posted by: Dwight Apr 11 2009, 10:37 PM

Then why are you in this thread, again? To swear at me?



For Edge 8 ... unless the outcome is a HUGE payoff (like the character not dying). But with lower Edge values it becomes more cost effective with lower payoff for a burned point. This exercise also helps get a better handle on whether that Edge value that it switches over [for a given payoff] is at a higher or lower value now. It actually is switching over at a lower value (as follows from it being more costly in SR4A to burn Edge 8 ... any Edge really).

See it actually does matter, whether you give a damn or not.



Oh, yeah that. See that IS what I'm measuring. It is worse because you fall behind the other characters much faster than before. True you don't go backwards quite as fast (EDIT: well maybe you do, depends on just how much of that extra Karma really comes through in play) because the overall advancement rate is upped some, but you do fall behind faster.

That's why what you profess to not give a damn about matters [to you]. Because it answers the question you care about.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 12:08 AM

Check SR4's Karma awards. Make out a list of "awarded for an average run." You'll get about 3 to 6 depending. Average, say 5.

Follow the same rules for SR4A, that number comes out to 7 to 10. Average, say, 9.

9 / 5 = 1.80

Voila. 80% increase.



Actually I did. It was the "cost of living."



All of that is irrelevant. The whole point is I already burned the fucking edge. Once I buy it up again (under SR4 vs. SR4A) where do I come out "ahead"?

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 12:40 AM

Oh, that was confusing because it's the wrong ratio in the cost of living values. So yeah, you just really screwed up implementing the analogy. All that analogy as you've laid it out is saying "look, I can spend faster on hookers (AKA burning Edge) because I've got more cash(AKA Karma) and I can buy more hookers because the absolute value increase the hookers are charging didn't entirely eat up my wage increases". ((EDIT2: Which of course isn't even something firm to hang your hat on because the Karma earning ratio is variable to the point that inside what appear to be reasonable ranges of variance it can actually flip that. ))

It doesn't say anything about just how crappy the SR4A burn is compared to SR4 burn.



Only you don't come out "ahead", it's actually a matter of the degree to which you are behind. In both cases you come out behind by burning Edge (before accounting for the payoff of whatever the Edge was spent to gain, which we can assume is the same in both SR4A and SR4, right?). That's just what burning Edge does. Only in SR4A you come out further behind.

EDIT2: As an added bonus, besides actually being something fairly useful to base gaming decisions on, this analysis is applicable and valid for Karma earning above or below the 9:5 ratio (as long as there is some Karma coming in and it isn't thousands of Karma)

Posted by: suppenhuhn Apr 12 2009, 01:38 AM

Your analysis is pretty crappy because you continue to ignore that there's no linear correlation between karma and dicepool.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 01:56 AM

The Karma to die pool correlation doesn't need to be entirely linear. It just needs to be direct and significant, of which it is both.

The correlation is actually fairly close to linear when you are making the choices because of the breadth of Skills. For the non-linear effects to start having meaningful impact the gap in power between a choices much be huge (hundreds of Karma, where upon the characters are just in completely different classes) or you have to be at that part of the curve where things elbow up very steeply (after the characters have way higher than 1000 Karma in advancement under their belt ... I'm not sure where that range is these days but obviously it's higher than it was under SR4).

EDIT: Though for really low values of Edge the discrete step of a single choice does start getting affected sooner, the difference is a little more abstract, and somewhat diminished sooner. But then the price paid is lower and much more likely to be the better payoff anyway.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 03:14 AM

Hence the god damned quote marks you hair spitting "the argument is wrong because he misspelled something" neat-freak.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 03:23 AM

What??? Misspelled what? Where?

Your measurement is nigh meaningless and just I assumed it was because you didn't understand that you were expending an asset? This is about the asset expended (burning Edge). You don't even need to the exact track the timing of getting the Karma back to valuate how much you've loss, that is actually effectively irrelevant to valuation of that asset expended. As is this bit of Karma overtop when you arbitrarily set at 5 session the time at which you total up +/- Karma spent/expended at.

You referring to it as coming out ahead seemed to go to the root of that misconception.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 03:32 AM

You can't get ahead. But if the edge is already burned where would you like to be? SR4, or SR4A?

SR4A.

Q

E

D

(Note: My point about being "ahead" was the SR4 burner compared to the SR4A burner: one of them is ahead of the other; no other build needed for the comparison)

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 03:40 AM

That's crazy talk.

Because the hole you find yourself in is notably deeper than it is in SR4. It's the same answer because it's the same question dressed up differently. That burn cost(s) more in SR4A, whether you did it 5 minutes ago or whether your might choose to do it 5 minutes from now.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 04:42 AM

I give up. I've proven empirically that SR4A is better. You keep seeing two holes, one deeper than the other and fail to take into the account the size of the wheelbarrows dumping dirt into the holes.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 06:25 AM

LOL. You are blind to the same wheelbarrows dumping the same heaps of dirt for the other PCs. So at the end of those few sessions you are still looking up.

I showed how the cost was higher when you were considering spending in the future, right? So how did the cost change between the 5 minutes before and the 5 minutes after the Edge was burnt? The answer is that it changed in your own subjective judgement, and only there.

I highly suggest you stay away from casinos and such. That's how casinos make their money, off people that can't keep the various veils of illusion from obscuring the objective, logical facts. At least at the RPG gaming table the stakes are pretty much inconsequential, you aren't going to lose your rent money or anything.

Posted by: Bull Apr 12 2009, 01:04 PM

Guys, can we avoid running discussions into the ground, and then stomping on them until they stop twitching?

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 01:10 PM

I guess we could, but seriously, would this be dumpshock anymore then? ^^
But i guess being a little more friendly could not hurt in these cases <.<

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 02:28 PM

Twitching? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K80CIQPwruU

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 05:31 PM

The other PCs do not matter to the original question.








Would be nice.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 05:47 PM

See! It keeps coming right at me!

Sure they do. Their level of abilities influences the difficulties of the environment the character ends up in. If the other character's abilities go up more the difficulty of the environment increases, either because the GM is purposely upping the heat or the other players are pushing further.


Again, what you profess to not care about matters for answering the question.

You are making the very mistake you talk about with raising wages. The absolute amount of advancement in SR4A for the edge Burn character is marginally higher with the SR4A after 5 sessions (assuming Karma is earned at least 67% faster) than SR4 but the other characters have increased their advancement faster, too. So the SR4A falls behind more.

The whole of the character's situation, therefore the whole of the influence of the rules changes (and thus other characters), must be considered to understand the difference.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 05:48 PM

... but you just can't stop? Even after giving up?

Don't worry, I love you too and I won't give up on you. I've got a soft spot for trying to eliminate ignorance and misconceptions. EDIT: I have faith in you, that you'll come through in the end!

Posted by: Cain Apr 12 2009, 06:04 PM

They do, because a Mr. Lucky build isn't going to be burning Edge in the first place. The question is the low-Edge chars, who can afford to burn with impunity. We should be examining Edge 1-2 characters, not Mr. Lucky.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 12 2009, 06:20 PM

Not total impunity but they can afford to burn much, much more readily. SR4A at least boosts their cost the same approximately 20%, even if +20% to not much is still damn small, and puts some meaningful pressure on the mid-range too Edge, too.

The main thing keeping the Mr. Burn build with Edge 1 in check, besides player self restraint from min-maxing, is the danger inherent in only having 1 point of Edge for cushion. ((There isn't anything prohibiting burning down to Edge 0, is there?))

But this burn and then repurchasing of Edge becomes worse depending on how Edge refresh is handled. If the refresh rate is longer than just the end-of-session and Edge that is bought [at the end of the session] is considered to come already refreshed (I'm not sure the rules are explicit on this?) that's a further loophole that Edge 1 or Edge 2 can exploit through min-maxing.


EDIT: One potential mechanical change that would have made a much more serious impression would have been to add/change two rules:
- burn Edge is a permanent penalty to your Edge Attribute, meaning lower effective maximum and also higher cost (because with a -1D penalty you still pay for Edge three even when you are only getting the Edge 2 effect).
- an alternate to burning Edge is spending Edge * 5 Karma, minimum 20 Karma, that you have banked

That gets a little more complicated but it addresses Mr. Burn.

Posted by: Kingboy Apr 12 2009, 06:31 PM

Seems par for the course from what I've seen so far with SR4A.

Thanks for checking and posting that, answers a question I asked somewhere else.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 08:57 PM

New rule:

Spend 5 karma to not die.

How much does that gimp a character in relation to his pals?

Not much, I'm betting.

(5 karma: the cost to raise your Edge to 1 and burn it.)

Not only can he do this every run, but gains 4 karma on top to boot. Compare to the cost in SR4:

3 karma to raise Edge to 1, 5 karma gained per run.

2 karma or 4 on skills? 2 karma or 4?

I think I'll take the 4.

Q.

F.

E.

D.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 12 2009, 09:52 PM

He falls 5 karma behind his pals if they did not have to burn edge. If you do that every session and have 26 sessions a year that is 130 karma he is behind his pals and it is significant. If its a one time thing its no big deal. Also whenever its to not die I guess you can say you just saved infinite karma. I suspect part of the discussion though is for when you burn karma for something other than avoid death, like a really awesome success on a kill shot. And then a 1 edge guy just lost 5 karma for a really cool shot and its totally worth falling behind your pals for that.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 11:00 PM

Once again just because (9*X) is larger than (9*X)-(5*E) does not mean that (9*X)-(5*E) is less than (5*X)-(3*E).

The question is not:

"How much behind is Mr. EdgeBurn over the rest of the party?"

The question is:

"How much less behind is Mr. EdgeBurn in SR4A over SR4?"

Posted by: Larme Apr 12 2009, 11:21 PM

You can keep saying that that's the only question, but everyone else is going to keep saying that it's not a very relevant one. The reason why nobody wants to discuss that question is because it doesn't matter. What matters is the overall usefulness of burning edge in SR4A, and no matter how many times you tell people to put that issue out of their heads, they won't. So you can probably stop trying.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 11:52 PM

Here's the original post for your benefit:

Fact 1: Characters with 1 point of edge found it beneficial to burn it (see quoted material).
Fact 2: Karma awards with SR4A are better than SR4 with regards to raising attributes (such as Edge--see my math in previous posts).

Somehow despite these two facts it's become less of an option to burn edge? It was an option before, and apparently quite a good one and it's become less detrimental to do so and in so doing it became less viable?!?

Posted by: Dwight Apr 13 2009, 12:00 AM

You are a member of the Queen Elizabeth's Foundation for Disabled People?

Like I said, roughly +/-20% more than it did before. *shrug* Although because you are limited to burning 1 Edge per session (unless you buy 2 Edge) in SR4A you are effectively throttled more so in burning up your advancement, forcing you to moderate the split between burning Edge and advancing. Naturally that's better for your character because it curbs your commitment to the Mr. Stupid strategy.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 12:11 AM

So you're telling me that Fact 2 (burned edge is relatively lest costly to replace) is wrong?

All my math seems to indicate otherwise:
(9*X)-(5*E) is larger than (5*X)-(3*E) for all positive values X and E where the f(X,E) is positive.*

SR4 or SR4A, Fact 1 is still limited to once (or twice) a session. That hasn't changed.

*The two equations are equal at X = 2, E = 1, but f(X,E) = -2.

Posted by: Cain Apr 13 2009, 12:28 AM

I suppose the question comes down to this:

Exactly how valuable is 5 karma?

In a Mr. Burn build (which I have encountered) is 3 out of 5 more or less valuable than 5 out of 9?

Remember, we're discussing a Mr. Burn build, who presumably plans on burning Edge every so often and doesn't mind falling behind his compatriots.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 12:35 AM

Assuming that 5 karma has a value of N (regardless of what N is) 2/5ths of N is smaller than 4/9ths.

Therefore, Mr. EdgeBurn would be much better off in SR4A.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 13 2009, 05:40 AM

Now, here's the problem with your argument. We're talking about the cost of burning a point of edge.

cost
–noun
1. the price paid to acquire, produce, accomplish, or maintain anything: the high cost of a good meal.
2. an outlay or expenditure of money, time, labor, trouble, etc.: What will the cost be to me?
3. a sacrifice, loss, or penalty: to work at the cost of one's health.
4. costs, Law.
a. money allowed to a successful party in a lawsuit in compensation for legal expenses incurred, chargeable to the unsuccessful party.
b. money due to a court or one of its officers for services in a cause.

In no where in the definition of cost will you find 'What you have left over after paying for something'. The amount left over has nothing to do with how much it cost the person to burn a point of edge. It costs more for a guy with 8 edge to burn a point of edge than it does a guy who only has 1. It costs more for a guy to lose 5 points of their karma than it does to lose 3 points.

Besides which, we're talking about an optional edge burn. If your character is about to die, it becomes a lot harder to measure the cost. It's probably worth it to spend five adventure's worth of karma to save your favorite character.

HOWEVER, if it's possible to succeed without burning edge, what do you think people will consider when they're deciding whether or not to burn that edge? Are they going to be thinking about how much karma they'd have left over? Or would they be measuring the value of what they're giving up versus the value of what they're getting by burning edge?

<Edited to remove a late night screw up. Grumble>

Posted by: Larme Apr 13 2009, 05:56 AM

The problem is that the question doesn't really have an answer. We're not dealing with a set number of karma, or a set of circumstances where you definitely need or don't need to burn edge. Is it good or bad to burn edge? No matter what the ratios are between rule versions, the answer is, in the famous words of Bob Dole, "Depends." I think we know the math, and there are no mathematical disagreements. The only disagreement is what you call the mathematical conclusions, do you label it "less expensive than it was," or "still not worth it?" That, in the end, is pointless semantics. I propose that anyone who tries to make character decisions in Shadowrun based on mathematical averages will fail miserably, because there are too many variables to account for. The only way to decide the best path for a Shadowrun character is to evaluate the totality of the character sheet in the context of the specific campaign. We'll never resolve this question, because without the context, it has no resolution. So maybe I'm saying, in a polite way, that everyone should get over themselves and shut up on this topic. Consider it closed, or the mods will more likely than not start bringing out the hammers.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 08:14 AM

Very true. The cost isn't what you have left over, but in terms of character growth it is. Burning Edge costs me a growth opportunity.

How much of an opportunity?

E*K.

Where E is your edge before burning (and after raising) and K is the karma cost per attribute, either 5 or 3 depending on with version of SR4.

Now, is E*K relatively higher in SR4 or in SR4A?

Posted by: darthmord Apr 13 2009, 02:19 PM

While it may cost more under SR4A, you'll be able to replace it faster under SR4A.

SR4 / Raise Edge from 7 to 8: 24 Karma
Avg Karma earn rate: 5 karma
Sessions Required: 5
Leftover Karma: 1

SR4A / Raise Edge from 7 to 8: 40 Karma
Avg Karma earn rate: 9 karma
Sessions Required: 5
Leftover Karma: 5

Assumptions:
1. Edge was burnt from 8 down to 7 for some reason.
2. Replacement Edge was purchased.

Conclusion:
========
SR4A with its increased Karma gain rate puts character advancement ahead of what SR4 had set. This is despite the increased cost of raising Attributes.

Attribute costs went up 66.66% while the Karma gain rate went up 80%. The net result from anyone able to add & subtract would be that you end up with roughly 13.34% more Karma than before if you were purchasing nothing but attributes.

Skill advancement has gone up 80% over SR4 due to skill costs NOT changing and Karma gain rate going up 80%. Again, this assumes you were purchasing nothing but skills. Most players will be raising both skills and attributes so the overall character advancement rate will be somewhere between 13.34% and 80% depending on the specific ratio and amounts of skill to attribute increases.

To put it into a real world example...

You pay $100 / week for gasoline and $100 / week for food. You currently get an allowance of $240 / week for food & gasoline expenses. Fears of an oil shortage cause your gas expenses to rise to $166.67 / week. But you also landed a promotion which increases your allowance for food & gasoline expenses. Your new allowance is $432.

Under the old numbers, you had $40 leftover. Under your new allowance, you end up with $165.33 leftover.

With SR4 vs SR4A, one fixed cost went up. But your income rate also went up. It went up by a larger amount than the fixed cost did. End result is you have more income to work with than before, even after accounting for the increase in the fixed costs.

Posted by: Dwight Apr 13 2009, 02:21 PM

As per the last 70ish posts and the calculations that Tunnel Rat and I have been kindly providing in numerous forms, SR4A. By a value of somewhere in a range bounded by +0% (assuming purchase of only Attributes during entire life of character) and +67% (assuming purchase of all non-Attributes during entirely life of character).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz1V_piTsrc


EDIT: Oh man, just as Draco18s is coming around another lost soul shows up?

Posted by: Dwight Apr 13 2009, 04:51 PM

Over and over. But I still have hope that no matter how slow on the uptake you are you'll finally get it.



Yeah well your math is brutally misapplied. *shrug*



No it hasn't changed, your math is still brutally misapplied in the same way.

That's the tough thing about applied math. If you start out with a broken translation from the problem domain to your mathematical model then it doesn't matter if you manipulate the numbers correctly. Ironically you are more likely to produce the correct answer if instead you screw up the arithmetic.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 05:56 PM

Last I checked 9 * 5 = 45 and 5 * 5 = 25. (Karma for playing 5 sessions)
Regardless of how much I'm spending to raise edge (nX), 40-5X is going to always be greater than 25-3X. Find me a number for X < 9* that shows otherwise.

Increased karma gain is increased growth as long as the costs haven't changed. The only cost that DID change was attributes and it went up by less than the increased karma awards.

(Edit: managed to screw up my basic arithmetic somehow--I'm clearly not getting enough sleep)

*X = 9 means that with 25 karma you can't buy the point of edge, though the point still holds true (0 > -2), at X = 10, the equations are equal at -5 after that it falls apart, but neither character can buy the karma anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 13 2009, 06:16 PM

Fail.

Basic economics. If the numerical value of Cost remains the same, but resources available (money) increases, then the actual Cost has decreased.



In other words, despite the Karma cost not changing (directly), everything in SR4A except attributes are 40% cheaper than they where in SR4A. Attributes are ~4% cheaper.

Posted by: Tunnel Rat Apr 13 2009, 06:48 PM

Actually, K would be more accurately defined as the value of a point of karma, because players buy much more than attributes with their karma. Now, the value of K can be as low as .6 (you buy only attributes), and as high as 1 (you buy anything but attributes).

Both cases are rather unrealistic, because I know of no character who intends to spend on ONLY attributes or anything BUT attributes.

After going over my CPI, and cutting out things that MR. Lucky wouldn't be able to buy (Magic/techno stuff), I recalculated K as 0.89. So, you're getting 45 karma now that's equal to 40.05 SR4 karma, and you're spending 40 for edge that's 35.6 SR4 karma.



That would be definition #2: 2. an outlay or expenditure of money, time, labor, trouble, etc.: What will the cost be to me?

Again, we're not talking about GASOLINE here. You can't get to work without gas, but you could avoid buying coffee when you pay for your gas, right? If you choose to break your edge burning addiction, your benefits are sooooo much better in SR4A.

Let's take a look at it from another perspective. Let's say you walk into a game, and the GM wants to know how powerful the NPCs should be to confront you. A good measure of a character's power is how much karma they've earned. So who's going to face the more powerful NPCs? The SR4 guy, or the SR4A guy?

25 karma vs 40.05 karma (45 * .89)?

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 13 2009, 07:02 PM

0.6 and 1.0 whats?

The whole point of my argument that karma has some defined value, for which 1 karma is 1 karma, regardless of what it buys you. Is 5 karma more or less than 9 karma?

Is 5 minus 3 karma more or less than 9 minus 5 karma?

Or putting this another way:

Inflation comes along and increases your paycheck 80% and the cost of milk 60%.
Would you like to take the raise and pay the increased cost of milk, or would you rather not?
You may not take the increased paycheck and last week's price of milk.

Posted by: Bull Apr 13 2009, 08:15 PM

Ooookay... Closing this down now. Everyone, take a deep breath, step back, and try to remember... This is a game. GMs can bend, tweak, and break the rules as they see fit. Nothing works out 100% of the time. And you're debating with mathematical equations now, for God's sake. Seriously, I think you need to go outside and get some air or sunshine or something.