Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: 10gauge Apr 12 2009, 03:37 PM

Since a long time I was wondering whether mages need to perform some action like gestures or spoken formulas to cast a spell. I think it would be unfair if mages just have to concentrate because a mundane opponent never would be able to notice that he's going to be grilled. I couldn't find any information about this problem. Help and suggestions would be very appreciated.

Cheers!

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 03:45 PM

No, they don't.
If they can see something, it does not matter if you have cut their vocal cords and severed their arms.
They can kill you with their mind, if they can see you.
Only if they take the two Testiculation Geasa they need to Wave around and talk bollocks.
Technically, you can't even stop a mage from casting spells if you blind him.
He will just use astral perception to sling mana spells.

Posted by: 10gauge Apr 12 2009, 03:57 PM

This makes them extremely dangerous. So, if a megacorp wants to negotiate with a runner they don't know yet, would they first observe him even with a mage to determine whether he is magically active or not?

I have a very paranoid mage in my group and I don't want four dead NPCs for nothing. This would probably end in disaster.

Posted by: Uli Apr 12 2009, 03:59 PM

I agree that there are in general no universal signs, but...

The more powerful magicical practice is the more obvious it becomes. A force 2 Stun Bolt will probably not feature any gestures, maybe a whispered (and exchangeable) word of power and a glance. A force 10 energy bolt is very noticeable - the mage will prabably assume a dominant posture, breath deaply, speak formulae intensely (not necessarily loud), and make a forceful wave or pointing while casting.

The point is, that a mage uses methods which help his mind kill people. That can be postures, gestures, word, humming, or intense inward concentration like Hiro Nakamura. Or whatever fits.

[EDIT: There's nothing wrong with bringing professional magical security to a negotiation. You could put an astral barrier between the group and the Johnson to prevent each of the two of assensing and making the other party nervous. And no, I think there is nothing especially wrong with checking runner mages. They check their mates, associates, and enemies all the time themselves.]

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 04:05 PM

Where, do you think, does the KILL THE MAGE FIRST come from? O.o
You can not caputre a mage and make him helpless, unless you can take his magic away somehow . .
all his mind.control and fire-power is built in.

Posted by: 10gauge Apr 12 2009, 04:10 PM

Thank you for your quick and very helpful replies.

Posted by: Neraph Apr 12 2009, 04:46 PM

Don't forget about Mana Static and Magecuffs/Mage Hood (hood, was it?), if you really want to lay the smack-down on a mage.

That aside, mage's aren't all that supremely powerful. You have to remember balancing factors like Drain and SHOOT THE MAGE FIRST.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 12 2009, 06:46 PM

Magicians are not required to make any form of physical movement or vocalize anything to cast or summon, unless they take a Geas for such. Every-day spellslingers, however, often will as a method of focus & concentration; my characters, however, never do unless I specify otherwise (& then it is usually for show).

This does not mean you cannot notice someone using magic - high Force spells & summoning is actually very noticable.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 06:56 PM

So, even if the Mage is only casting a small little glance into your direction, you have to make a perception test with . . what? Force 6 Stun-Bolt, meaning 0 Successed needed? O.o

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 12 2009, 07:46 PM

That should tell you something... they DO need to do something which can be perceived, otherwise it would'nt be a Complex Action.

Short Answer: Magicians need to do something to cast a spell or summon a spirit.
Long Answer: A Magician needs to do something appropriate for his tradition. A shaman sings the songs of his totem, a hermetician vocalizes the spell, whatever the player comes up with that fits. Why? Traditions aren't for show. A shaman doesn't learn to kill people by glancing at them, he curses them with pain and hurt, a mambo pleads to damballah to strike her enemies down with lightning and so on.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 12 2009, 08:01 PM

No. Geasa are 10 point Negative Qualities for a reason. Spellcasting is detectable, but not through any of the "makes spellcasting obvious" Geasa types (gestures, vocalization, dancing, etc).

Posted by: silva Apr 12 2009, 08:03 PM

Agree with greybrother.

And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh?

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 12 2009, 08:11 PM

Geas just says, that you absolutely MUST do something specific for some magical actions. Until you take it you have free reign about what you do to make your magic as visible as needed. Those are just fluff geas, you don't get BP for it but the satisfaction that you actually do some roleplaying

Posted by: CanRay Apr 12 2009, 08:21 PM

On the part of keeping Mages hostage... Mage Mask. Keep them in that for a few days, and they'll be nice and insane.

Or Tranqs. Lots of Tranqs! No concentration, no magic!

And you can pump them full of artificial drugs to burn out their magic as well. Then release them into the General Population of a prison.

Lone Star Police Stations are not Nationalized (They're still part of the UCAS.). Lone Star PRISONS, however, are. They can do whatever they want that's legal under their laws, and no one can say Diddily-Bo!

And, frankly, the public isn't going to give two dreks about some ex-con magician anyhow.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 12 2009, 08:24 PM

The two statements don't contradict each other. I know D&D isn't exactly well-liked around here, but it's the same thing as Spell-Like Abilities in D&D: they don't have Verbal, Somatic (gesture), or Material components, so there's no blindingly obvious way to detect that they're being used, but they still provoke Attacks of Opportunity in battle because you're focusing your attention on using your ability rather than defending yourself. Same thing here -- you're focused inwards, not paying attention to the "real world", not to mention with a high-Force spell there's probably some very obvious (thus the threshold of 0 for F6 spells) visual indicators from the gathering of mana itself. Glowing auras, sparkly air, a strong wind inside, etc. However, the text is VERY clear that you do NOT need to speak, gesture, or otherwise do anything physical to cast a spell.

Posted by: 10gauge Apr 12 2009, 09:13 PM

Well, even if you can notice a mage is casting by making a perception test... I see a problem with initiative. If you are faster than the mage, you won't notice anything because the mage hasn't begun to cast yet. If you're slower than the mage, he has finished his spell before you are allowed to make your perception test. So either you notice noting, or you you notice that he casted a spell while you're already burning.

Or did I miss something?

Posted by: silva Apr 12 2009, 09:15 PM

I remember reading somewhere that the perception test is to see if the magician is trying to cast the spell, through visual clues (concentration, gestures, etc.). But I may be mistaken. Gonna read the book when arrive at home.

Anyway, if its true that a mage dont need to do anything other than think, the authors lost a great chance of depicting the roleplaying elements of the traditions, IMHO. Further, it took a step out from what I think are great magic depictions in the roleplaying industry (Mage, Unknown Armies, Witchcraft), and aproached what I see as poor magical depictions (like D&D, where spells are more like different guns).

(In my table, it would be mandatory. "Dont say you cast a manaball. Show me how you do it, by your traditions beliefs!").

Posted by: Cain Apr 12 2009, 09:19 PM

Not all spells are combat spells. You might need to detect something like a mental manipulation. The shimmer in the air tells you *some* thing happened, the fact that the sarge is acting weird tells you what.

Posted by: Zurai Apr 12 2009, 09:20 PM

And what if their tradition is Psionics? Or some other tradition that internalizes magic, such that there wouldn't BE an external physical sign of spellcasting such as gestures or chanting?

Posted by: silva Apr 12 2009, 09:26 PM

Nothing wrong with it, If the tradition´s way of spellcasting is like this. But stating beforehand "you dont need anything to cast a spell beyond a thought", is a step in the wrong direction, to me at least.

I think the process of spellcasting should be pre-stated just as the "spirit categories table", for each tradition.

Eg:

Shamanism spellcasting: chanting, dancing and talking to spirits.
Hermeticism spellcasting: whispering formulae, drawing glyphs in air.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 12 2009, 09:26 PM

BBB page 168, done.
"Intense concetration, small gestures, and whispering"

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 12 2009, 09:31 PM

would make magic in situations where stealth is needed a bit . . awkward no? O.o
The runners need to sneak by someone, the shaman proudly declares:"i cast improved invisibility force 6 on us" and promptly begins singing and dancing, while shaking his rattle.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 12 2009, 09:36 PM

The "Gathering of Energy" used for spellcasting or summoning is noticeable, the more powerful the spell, the easier that gathering of energy is... The hair on your neck may stand up, your skin may crawl with unseen energy... whatever, but that energy IS noticeable...

Posted by: silva Apr 12 2009, 09:40 PM

The shaman would try to make all the chanting and dancing in a discreet way, just like a street sam would do to arm pump his shotgun while hiding.

Anyway, go to a Casa de Santo and try asking a pai de santo to appease the spirits for you BUT only by thinking, not making gestures or whispering... he wont do it because he prefers to offend you than the spirits.



EDIT:

I knew Ive read this somewhere. Thanks, Draco.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Apr 12 2009, 09:40 PM

As I understand it, there are small gestures and whispering as the base spellcasting level. The Geasa makes it large obvious gestures or loud chanting. One if the force is high enough is obvious when someone is looking, the other might be obvious even if you aren't looking like turned away or in another room or is still obvious when its a low force spell.

Posted by: Degausser Apr 12 2009, 11:37 PM

The SR3 Magic book addressed this problem. Basically, casting spells is like doing any other highly complex skill. Usually, people develop a memory device to help them make the process easier. For example, I CAN do calculus in my head, but it is easier for me (and I am less likely to screw up) if I write the problem down and walk through it step-by-step.

A house rule I use is that, if someone tries to cast a spell without using their tradition's numonic (such as saying ogga booga or waving their arms around) then I increase the threshold by one. You can say it, whisper it, whatever, but if you are bound and gagged, you have an extra threshold.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 13 2009, 12:07 AM

That is an interesting idea... I like it...

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 13 2009, 12:29 AM

would not a dice-pool malus be a bit more appropriate?

Posted by: Degausser Apr 13 2009, 01:10 AM

Eh, Six one half a dozen the other. I have found that my players don't like it when I take away from heir dice pools, so increasing the threshold is a way to get around it.

Technically, according to the books, reducing a dice pool means that there is something wrong WITH YOU, whereas increasing the threshold means that THE TASK is harder. It is harder to cast a spell without your memory helpers (chants, dancing, singing, waving your hands around) so that would increase the threshold, where as something that is specific to you (for example, wounds) reduces your dice pool. That's just how I see it though.

Posted by: jesusofthemonkeys Apr 13 2009, 01:37 AM

Also the caster can use the stealth skill to increase the successes the observers would need.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 13 2009, 02:18 AM

Noticing the Casting is different then noticing the spell.

Noticing something Magic happened is distinct from noticing who cast the spell.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 13 2009, 03:19 AM

However ift might make finding WHO cast the spell a little harder...

Because we all know the reaction to noticing the caster don't we? GEEEK THE MAGE FIRST.......

Posted by: Degausser Apr 13 2009, 08:59 AM

We did a silly one-shot campaign once, and it resulted in the funniest thing ever.

So, the team consisted of a couple Street Sams, and a mage. The Mage's handle was 'Geek.' He lasted approx. 0.4 seconds.

"Hi everyone, my name is Raz, and this is my friend, Geek, the Mage."

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 14 2009, 12:21 AM

Now that is Good... I loved it...

Posted by: LamplightSlasher Apr 14 2009, 05:16 PM

The following is straight from the SR4A:


Noticing Magic
Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any,
visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her
tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magicians intense look of concentration,
whispered incantations, and small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more
visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic mask. The shamanic mask
typically changes the magicians features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to
her mentor spirit or tradition”an eagle shaman, for example, might seem to have feathers
or beaklike features while spellcasting or summoning.
Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a
threshold equal to 6 minus the magicâs Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with
the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the
caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver
is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is
evident (+2 dice).

That actually seems pretty clear cut. I know I will be requiring mages in my own game to make some kind of visible 'gesture'.

The magical effect may not be visible, a manabolt thus being invisible upon casting and until impact with the target, but the gestures required to cast them are still physical.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 14 2009, 06:02 PM

soo, as soon as the mages hands are found, he can't cast anymore?

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 14 2009, 06:05 PM

Only if you limit things to hand gestures.

The signs of skill use could be anything.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 14 2009, 06:39 PM

Now, to throw some Kerosene on the fire... What about the Shamanic Mask?

Posted by: LamplightSlasher Apr 14 2009, 06:43 PM

Just because someone knows that mage is casting, doesn't mean that they know what is being cast, or that they have the means to prevent it. And for the spellcasters, they are required to be creative in how they hide their gestures. Is that mysterious veiled woman with the Johnson simply from a culture where veils are common, or using them to hide her vocal gestures?

Posted by: Caadium Apr 14 2009, 06:43 PM

"Alright rookie, the first rule to remember when dealing with Shadowrunners is to 'Geek the Mage first!'"

"But Sarge, how will I know which one is the mage?"

"Just look for the man that looks like he's trying to take a shit. Any man that is trying to crap during a firefight is a priority target. Either that's the mage, and therefore rule one applies, or its someone thats in over their head, in which case putting them out of there misery is the most humane thing you can do. Got it?"

"Yessir, cap the crapper, got it!"

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 14 2009, 06:45 PM

FOOOSH!

Yeah...
Since its optional, why would you ever want it?
Should it apply to everyone with a Mentor Spirit?

-paws

Posted by: Lansdren Apr 14 2009, 06:56 PM

For flavour a street ganger level wolf shaman of mine has a full nano tattoo of a wolf mask on his face to get more in the right frame of mind.

Posted by: Malachi Apr 14 2009, 07:00 PM

The Shamanic Mask is an optional way to have your character's spellcasting be noticeable. For your character, you can have their method of Spellcasting be gestures, spoken word, shamanic mask, some other sort of "visual manifestation," or any combination of the previous. That much is all roleplaying fluff. It makes no difference as far as the rules are concerned as long as the Magician can see the target. If there's geasa involved, then that's a different story.

Posted by: Earlydawn Apr 14 2009, 07:19 PM

Does anybody else throw the "subtle spells" thing out the window? I can't stand the idea of mages and shamans throwing around immensely powerful manaballs and such around without visible cues. It just feels too psionic and not magic to me.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 14 2009, 08:55 PM

We apparently have different definitions of immensely powerful.

The threshold to notice a caster is 6 minus the Force of the spell. At Force 6 and higher, any observer automatically notices a spell being cast unless they are incapable of making a Perception roll.

Arguably, Force 5 is about what most soft-maxed starting casters are going to be throwing around. At that level you need 1 hit to notice a magician casting. Not hard, even for Bob the Pedestrian to spot. And while Force 5 is very beefy, its hardly what I'd call immensely powerful.

At lower than Force 5, yeah, it can be tricky to notice a spell being cast, especially if you're unperceptive. That's one of the things that, rightly IMO, makes magicians scary.

So... yeah, I'm okay with low Force spells being hard to notice. If you want your magician to wave his arms around and chant up a storm, take Geas (Gestures), Geas (Singing), and enjoy your 20 extra BP.

-paws

PS Personally, I think I would have made the threshold (Spellcaster's Magic) minus Force, but whatever, I'm not a game designer.

Posted by: Kev Apr 14 2009, 10:16 PM

The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it. If people learn division by writing it out, then they'll naturally write it out when they need to do division. If you learn magic by concentrating and asking the spirits in Creole to lend you their strength, then TA-DA, that's what you'll do. But that's not the necessary part of magic; only the concentration and molding of mana is important, much like in division where the only thing necessary is the mathematical operations to acheive the result.

In my book, people notice magic due to the magician's intense concentration; perhaps they chant under their breath, or their eyes roll back slightly; whatever. When the spells cross the magical FORCE 6 threshold, well... then the air around the mage starts rippling, and you feel the mana being channeled and shaped around them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 15 2009, 12:39 AM

Well Put...

Posted by: CanRay Apr 15 2009, 02:53 AM

Back in the old days (Wow, I'M saying this?), the Shamanic Mask wasn't optional. And that's one thing I've kept. I also give Shamans their Totem (Mentor Spirit) for free.

It's just part of Shadowrun Magic as far as I'm concerned, and the plusses equal the minuses for having one as far as I'm concerned.

But that's just me. Sitting here, in my rocking chair. Polishing up my Defiance T-250 nice and pretty-like.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 15 2009, 04:17 AM

*Sigh*
I really do need to get myself a silver-topped cane. And a lawn. So I can yell at kids to get off of it.
(No, I'm not really that old, but there is a generation gap between 5th and 6th grades right now, so I do feel like "my generation" is rather small and feel old).

Posted by: GreyBrother Apr 15 2009, 05:31 AM

That's called a Tradition, isn't it?

Posted by: Mordinvan Apr 15 2009, 05:54 AM

or none of the above because unless you have gease or centering hand motions, speech or some other sign are actually not required.

Posted by: toturi Apr 15 2009, 06:34 AM

That's good. But what constitutes a gesture? A tilt of the head, a squint of the eye, a motion with a finger? Any of the hundreds of minute gestures you make when in a firefight?

As my mage tilts his head to gain to peer down the sight of his pistol, his finger tightens around the trigger of the gun, he whispers,"Pew, pew!" when he casts the spell.

Or my favorite - the "Me Troll Mage" tactic or its numerous sister variants "Me Shapeshifter Mage", "Me Somehow Immune to Normal Weapons Mage" to name a few. Geek the mage first, if you can. Else you'd might have hurt more of them shadowrunners instead of wasting ammo on the mage.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 15 2009, 08:44 AM

Exactly.



Not exactly - we will assume Bob is on the higher end of average, with a 3 Intuition. No Perception skill - he's just some guy.

So, we have 3 - 1 (defaulting) -2 (not actively observing) = 0. Unless he has vision enhancements (which are cheap, but 'that guy' is unlikely to have them), he will not notice spellcasting without GM fiat; aka -14 Threshold (Force 20) should be noticeable as long as you have some form of sensory abilities & are on the same block.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 15 2009, 01:17 PM

Okay, fine, Bob was a bad example.

For anyone else who's not completely oblivious to their surroundings, like Bob apparently is, you're going to have a reasonable chance of noticing a Force 5 spell. Even if you get down to DP 1, that's a 50/50 shot.

-paws

Posted by: Malachi Apr 15 2009, 03:31 PM

But spellcasting is noticeable (as has been quoted in the rules), so the Magician must do something in order to make Spellcasting noticeable. If you don't want your mage to gesture, hand wave, or manifest the shamanic mask, then their magic creates a more noticeable "physical" effect on the world: wind rushing, visual distortions, distinctive smell, etc. The book lays out the crunchy rules for noticing spellcasting, there is no option to make your mage's magic "unnoticeable."

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 15 2009, 05:41 PM

I'd like to point out that by RAW it's easier to notice magic being cast in ShadowRun than it is in D&D where the mage has to do jumping jacks while shouting jibberish. By RAW D&D rules a fighter with a rank in Perception and a +1 from stat rolls his d20 versus a target number of 15 + spell level (he needs a 13 to notice a 0th level spell). And he can't even identify the spell unless he has Spellcraft (another 15+spell level TN).

Posted by: Mordinvan Apr 15 2009, 07:24 PM

No. Look at ritual casting, even mundanes can feel a large enough build up of mana around them, and if these "signs" were required then why would geases, and centering include them? If it is a penality to the caster to have them (gease) then why would you get bonus BP for admitting you have them anyway?


Sorry, those 'signs' are not required at all. All that is needed is mundanes in the area to notice a shift in mana, which they seem to be capable of doing according to the ritual casting rules. Now given ritual casting takes hours instead of moments, the 'sudden' shift in mana for normally casting is likely what tips most mundanes off.
If you want to READ more into the rules then are written, feel free.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 15 2009, 08:21 PM

Basically what it comes down to is:

Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality.

Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique.

Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 15 2009, 08:23 PM

Good summary.

-paws

Posted by: Zurai Apr 16 2009, 12:51 AM

Errrr.... no. Without a feat or class feature that says otherwise, spells cast with a somatic component are automatically spotted and identified as spellcasting, and spells cast with a verbal component are automatically heard and identified as spellcasting (subject to the normal spot/listen range rules). There are no spot/listen checks to identify spellcasting; there is a spellcraft check to identify which spell is being cast. Actually, the rules specifically say that spellcasting is ALWAYS obvious and cannot be hidden or missed.

Now, of course, you can take Still Spell and Silent Spell to remove the gesture/verbal components, but that's expensive in feats and increased spell levels.

Posted by: The Mack Apr 16 2009, 08:57 AM

Nicely put.

Unless you take a geas (which makes them mandatory flavor), movements, gestures, verbal components, chanting, singing, etc., are all just flavor.