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Posted by: Carriage Apr 17 2009, 10:06 AM

How do I influence players to not pickup every gun of every goon they kill?

Posted by: toturi Apr 17 2009, 10:14 AM

Pay them more money for discretion. Discretion carries a high premium.

Posted by: Carriage Apr 17 2009, 10:23 AM

Why would an employer mind if weapons of killed goons are taken?

Posted by: Issmir Apr 17 2009, 10:46 AM

You could wait until they're nicely weighed down and then have them run for their lives from an excessively large swarm of bio-drones down a poorly series of winding tunnels and start penalizing encumbrance by modifying their movement rate. For extra bang-for-the-buck, have some of the swarms carry bio-bombs - the individual explosions won't do a great deal of damage, but it might encourage people to run like all hell before an explosion hits something really flamable. Running little monofilament cords between members of the swarm is an option too.

Or, if you're wanting to enter Utter Bastard GM Mode, start slipping stealth/tracking RFIDs into the better weapons and pieces of kit. Link them to a biomonitor so that a tracking signal is activated upon death of the registered user and have the Star or worse turn up at inopportune moments until they get the hint.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 17 2009, 11:28 AM

My usually end up looting something off of the opposition, even if it isnt their guns (which are usually worse than their own). Doesnt happen as much in shadowrun compared to other games (in my Scion they always took part of the corpse with them as a trophy if it was titanspawn...). However, even if they do look shit-loads of stuff from the goons, they probably cant sell it for very much. Remember, they probably cant flog it at its full cost and they need to split earnings from such sales between the group in most cases.
As for non-gear looting, i like giving them stuff they cant sell . Last game, i sent my players on a job which brought them into a cyberware clinic (...where they happened to be making a cyberzombie...) and after the gunfire stopped, they decided to take some shiny stuff before skedaddling. But who are you going to sell an invoked memory stimulator and parts for rating 4 betaware muscle replacement to?
The got some other stuff too, and it ended up being around 15k worth of stuff each (there were 3 runners), but that was because they were REALLY lucky with their searches, and its not often you get a situation like that. They almost ended up getting snagged by the backup high-threat response team as a result though

EDIT: Just thought of something you could do to stop random gun pick-ups. Just because the original owner of the smartgun is out for the count, doesnt mean the corp security cant fire it once you put it in your pocket...

Posted by: Heath Robinson Apr 17 2009, 11:34 AM

For goodness' sake. There are fatigue rules, if they weigh themselves down too much you start applying them. See how the Sam likes it when he's up to 6 boxes of Stun without a single damage test and can't do any more running for another couple of hours.

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Apr 17 2009, 11:51 AM

Because weapons can be traced when used in other crimes (whether through serial numbers or RFID tags) and the last thing a Johnson wants is law enforcement somehow tying his crime to some other crime and having another excuse to look at his crime closer.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2009, 11:55 AM

But come on, it's the Loot loot loot that makes our boys get up and shoot!

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 17 2009, 11:59 AM

^ And that is why every runner should carry a tag eraser at all times

Posted by: Aaron Apr 17 2009, 12:00 PM

I just apply the Street Costs table (p.312, SR4A) to the fenced price. Suddenly it's not worth it anymore.

Posted by: toturi Apr 17 2009, 12:32 PM

Indeed, as I said, discretion.

Posted by: tricwebs Apr 17 2009, 01:00 PM

Of course, using a gun looted off the local "street gang" (or taken off the body of some other "victim") is a good way of keeping law enforcement looking for someone else.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Apr 17 2009, 01:05 PM

looting is common but yeah, they have to carry this stuff, also after a while they will start to clank and if pockets are stuffed with loot it maght be harder to get to the stuff they need.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 17 2009, 01:10 PM

We had a player who was constantly looting guns. The first time he did it the gun was better than his.

The second and third time he did it because his gun jammed up and, well, he did loot it off a corpse.

We also looted an auto-shotgun off some corpse which the sniper was very keen to have.

(Sniper rifle = shotgun skill? That's silly).

Thread reminds me of a day when sitting around in the lounge I overheard discussion about some other game (D&D?) and looting the corpses. Oh, it was Anima Beyond Fantasy. Anyway I said, "You know, we need to loot the bodies in ShaodwRun more often. We keep skipping out on all the goodies."

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 17 2009, 01:28 PM

Just wait till they get the idea to take the bodies with them too.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 17 2009, 01:38 PM

About 700 a pop to a ghoul! ;D

Posted by: nezumi Apr 17 2009, 01:51 PM

If they're lucky, they'll pull in 10-15% of the 'face value' of a gun. For a 10lb gun, that generally means about $50 - and that's assuming they take the time and footwork to find a buyer for that price. If you aren't paying them enough that hauling a hundred pounds of guns for $500 while under fire seems like a good idea, you should consider upping how much you're paying. I fully expect PCs to steal firearms they don't have access to yet. But why they would stop to pick up ANOTHER Ares Predator is beyond me (and generally they don't - they literally have two dozen Ares Predators gathering dust in their safehouse, waiting for a buyer).

I will say though, I've also stopped accounting for standard ammunition. I assume they always have enough, because it's cheap, and a pain in the butt for me to account for. This reinforces the uselessness of picking up a fourteenth Ares Pred.

If you enforce proper selling rules, they'll still collect for a bit, but once they're sitting on literally a pile of hot evidence, they'll start rethinking things a little bit.

Posted by: nezumi Apr 17 2009, 01:51 PM

Double post

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 17 2009, 01:54 PM

Especially if the hot evidence can call home and transmit full trideo record of everything that happened during the run and in the safe house.

Posted by: Zaranthan Apr 17 2009, 01:57 PM

Tell them they're getting paid less because they're looting too much. Then pay them more once they stop. If you want to run a street-level game, talk to them BEFORE they make characters.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 17 2009, 02:12 PM

I've found that the more street level the game is, the more likely looting is. PCs start off poorer and get paid less, so they look for anything they can get to make ends meet. Often times they will end up like the crazy whack job gangers in movies, with a gym bag or five full of guns in their hide out that they pull out when the Star shows up to arrest them.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 17 2009, 02:21 PM

What happens when you loot that smartgun that's smarter then you are?

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 17 2009, 02:31 PM

It shoots you in the face and calls Lone Star/Mafia/Vory/etc. to collect the reward money they've put out on you.

-paws
Damn AIs.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 17 2009, 02:53 PM

The "Magic" talking sword. Just take a sword, add a built in Commlink, Custom Look 2, Personalized Grip, and let an AI move in. If the built in Commlink has speakers, the sword will even talk to you. Just give the AI the Lilacor personality as seen in the "Lilacor Mod" in the Elderscrolls games and your good.

"Heh... hehe... heheheh.. I just gotta say... YOU SUCK!"
*mumble* "Lord of Murder my ass... I should be the Lord of Murder..." *mumble*
"Hey, you know... my last owner... he became a God. Yea, unhu, thats right. Stick with me..."
"Ohhhhhhhh... lets go kill that over there!"
"Cuz I'm T&T, I'm dynomite... I'm T&T, I win the fight... I'm T&T, I'm a power load... I'm T&T, watch me explode..."
*Random played theme music, Conan movies are a good choice*
"Donk, got your nose... Oh, that looked painful, tell me was it painful... "

Posted by: Ancient History Apr 17 2009, 02:58 PM

CSI.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2009, 03:23 PM

Which is also the thing that will ensure that the Shadowrunners don't want to try another 'Run, and work at Call Centres that don't check into your SIN too close.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 17 2009, 03:27 PM

Discretion is one.

Weigth encumberance another. Time, being chased by multiple bad guys (or one really big bad one like a spirit).

Although if I were wearing my 'Assh*le GM' hat, I'd let the RFID tags in the items stolen allow groups of NPCs to rock up to their favorite hideout. I think having their base of operations being blown up once and the entire party sour on one guy for ruining it all would send a not so subtle message.

- J.

Posted by: Kingboy Apr 17 2009, 05:03 PM

Heck, depending on the group, just start throwing a big batch of dice behind the screen everytime they start looting. If they're not completely thick, one of them will probably metagame it out and suggest a change of plans. If not, well there's been plenty of suggestions here for applying negative reinforcement.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 17 2009, 06:19 PM

Tag Erasiers don't always work ether. Just stick some hardened stealth tags in em.

Posted by: Method Apr 17 2009, 06:26 PM

Wow. This thread made it to the second page without any reference to the Search Function?

Posted by: AllTheNothing Apr 17 2009, 06:47 PM

If they are in a corporate owned facility almost everything is tagged and it's position can be tracked, all the employes have a biomonitor wristband to track them and check their health conditions, sensitive gear (security gear, weapons, keycards, anything valuable) is tied to a biomonitor/container/location/whatever, if said gear has the owner killed/is taken out of the container or location without autorization an allarm is raised and it start broadcasting the position of the runners making their way out much more eventfull (the drones WILL know where to look for the runner); this can be resolved using bags made of wireless inibiting fabbric, but that kind of bags should be used for the important stuff (the one you are supposed to aquire) and going around loaded with several of them is going to cause some eyebrow to raise, the runners also need a wirelessproof place for storing the loot untill it has been cleaned.
Let the players know that looting is possible if safety misures are taken, but it's just not worth the time and effort.

Posted by: AllTheNothing Apr 17 2009, 06:49 PM

Search Function of what?

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 17 2009, 06:52 PM

Have you seriously tried to use the search? Most of the time, five hundred bazillion things pop up that have no relation to what you were searching for at all.

Posted by: AllTheNothing Apr 17 2009, 07:07 PM

Ah, that Seach Function..... which happens to be almost a topic in its own.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 17 2009, 07:23 PM

Still on page one for me.

Posted by: Kerrang Apr 17 2009, 07:46 PM

The sound of Lone Star (or your sprawls equivalent) sirens rapidly approaching is usually all it takes to discourage looting. If you aren't in a sprawl where authorities are likely to arrive quickly, then using the Advanced Safety mod from Arsenal on the first few guns the team attempts to loot should be helpful as well. If they don't notice the gun mod, so much the better, when they try to use the gun for the first time and it does not fire, that will give them a quick wake-up call. Fences won't buy the gun with the mod, and if they sell it to someone on the street for next to nothing, then that person is going to be looking them up when the gun does not work.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 17 2009, 07:49 PM

Two pages of posts.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 17 2009, 07:54 PM

He probably adjusted the number of posts he canveiw at a time, rather than using the default. I changed it to 100/page and its showing page 1 for me.

-paws

Posted by: Semerkhet Apr 17 2009, 08:06 PM

Speaking of the Search function, but otherwise totally off-topic, can someone tell me what RAW stands for? I've seen it several times already, and the forum won't let me use it as a search term because it's less than four letters.

Posted by: Method Apr 17 2009, 08:08 PM

An advance search for "loot" or "looting" using the "search topics only" feature yeilds only about a dozen threads, most identical to this one. But that's cool.

Posted by: paws2sky Apr 17 2009, 08:10 PM

RAW = Rules As Written

Also related:
RAI = Rules As Intended

Posted by: Martin Silenus Apr 17 2009, 08:12 PM

Rules As Written.

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 17 2009, 08:12 PM

Just start having security personal with biometric safeties on their weapons. This effectively makes them useless on the black market and to the runners. You can even be nasty and have a one time shocker for someone picking up the weapon that doesn't match the biometric code. I had a GM do that to use when we started picking up Lone Star guns. After two or three weapons we got the hint and never picked up another weapon ever again.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 17 2009, 08:28 PM

http://xkcd.com/242/

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 17 2009, 08:35 PM

You are right, my own eyes deceive me... or maybe they got hacked!

But I still only see one page of posts for me so far in this thread.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 17 2009, 08:57 PM

Lawgiver them!

"Cool! A Ruger Thunderbolt!" *Boom* "Cool, I can get a cyberhand now!"

Posted by: Mäx Apr 17 2009, 09:06 PM

Me too, it's a post per page think.

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 17 2009, 09:27 PM

So true, so very true

Posted by: JaronK Apr 17 2009, 10:38 PM

My group actually loots stuff to deal with CSI. Now, we're SR3, but after a battle we collect all spent casings, cleanse the area of magical residue, take all the guns and as much armor as we can, cast Fashion on the armor to make it look like different armor (and occasionally so it can fit us... thank you free medium security armor), cast ignite on all biological matter and all areas where we've been, clean up that magical residue, and occasionally bleach for good measure.

And hey, now our entire group has matching security armor, making it much harder to figure out who the mage is that they have to geek.

JaronK

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 17 2009, 10:49 PM

My solution is a sort of "all of the above". While I'm not entirely sure about the street prices rule (if a used gun costs seven times as much as its' resale value, fixers must be loaded), I can definitely say that after hacking the biometric security, wiping the (hardened) tags, and finding someone willing to fence guns with 'Shiawase" stamped into the side, it's probably not worth the hassle.

Actually, this is from Baldur's Gate II. I think I muted the game for a while....

Posted by: toturi Apr 17 2009, 11:35 PM

Just needs Knowledge skill - Counter CSI or something similar to screw that up.

In fact, the Covert Ops Protocol skill in Ghost Cartels should help too. Just a matter of who has more dice.

For GMs thinking of using things like Biometric Safety, maybe the various Security Design/Procedures/etc would help against that and should make sure someone in the facility has got that skill in the first place. When the runners kidnap/Mind Probe/Influence/pornomancer him to find out how to get into the facility, they could also get how to bypass such countermeasures too.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Apr 18 2009, 12:38 AM

Also:
BBB=Big black book=SR4 Main Rule book

Posted by: The Jake Apr 18 2009, 02:46 AM

When I'm wearing my "Nice GM" hat, in these situations, I usually just stop what I'm doing, look the offending player dead in the eye and ask them "Are you sure?".

This is usually enough to stop the most absurd behaviour.

- J.

Posted by: Glyph Apr 18 2009, 02:52 AM

Honestly, why is the PCs picking up some extra frickin' guns such a big, huge problem? I thought it would be about the PCs taking everything not nailed down, and carrying a saw, a spoon, and a beer cooler to harvest choice bits of cyberware from their foes.

Now, it's possible you've been making it too easy for them - not ever using RFID tags, ignoring encumbrance, letting them sell the guns too easily for too much, and giving them plenty of time to grab whatever they want. If that's the case, then following the common-sense solutions that others have put out here will greatly ameliorate the problem.

But seriously, while nabbing loot should not be effortless or risk-free, it's not really that big a deal if the runners grab a few extra weapons off of the guys they've geeked. They should occasionally be losing their own gear, or getting it damaged, so it balances out in the end.

Posted by: Christian Lafay Apr 18 2009, 03:25 AM

If it's not nailed down or on fire it's fair game. If I can pry it loose it wasn't nailed down, if I can douse it then it wasn't on fire. And my character was stealing EVERY gun could he could to start his Rent-A-Gun business. The question is more what to do with the goods. You might just turn them into thieves instead of runners.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 18 2009, 03:57 AM

I don't see why http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Fire...

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 18 2009, 04:41 AM

The only time I've ever had a "problem" with a player taking everything that wasn't nailed down was when I ran a campaign with a DND player and it was his first SR game. Actually it was the other players that told the guy he was an idiot to grab the "loot". It turned into an angry monkey sort of situation.

Angry Monkey Experiment:
A study done in the 60's had a room filled with monkeys, a lader with a sensor switch on it, food at the top of the lader, and the sensor switch hooked to cold water sprinklers that showered the entire room. The monkeys learned very quickly that if they touched the lader to get the food they got doused in cold water (hence the angry monkey part). After about a week of doing this they took one of the monkeys out and replaced it with a new monkey. It went straight for the food but was cut off by the others and beaten. Over time all the monkeys were replaced until none of the original monkeys were left, but still any time a new monkey tried to go for the food, it was cut off and beaten by the other monkeys (even though they didn't know why climbing the lader was bad).

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 18 2009, 06:02 AM

One problem you run into with biometrics on guns is that they're wired to tiny little computers. Tiny, little, hackable computers.

Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 18 2009, 06:43 AM

Wow, I'm completely opposite. I encourage looting! "Heck yeah you can take that guys body armor. And his cyberarm looks expensive too!" Look, runs pay jack. Have you seen what pay they offer in the SR Missions modules? It was something like 4000 to 7000 nuyen. For days worth of very hazardous work. Screw that. The only way to make money is to grab loot (gear, cyberware, data, etc) and sell it.

Way back I had a player who regularly filled his truck with dead bodies to later be butchered for cyberware scavenging. Ah the good ol' days.

Posted by: Chrysalis Apr 18 2009, 02:01 PM

I use the quote from Heat in is you have to be able to in 10 seconds walk out the door and never have to look back.

I think it is the same with the looting, if it is causing monkey trouble then you should not loot. However if there is no monkey trouble than looting is fine. Sometimes the only way you can get a gun through customs is to steal one there.

-Chrysalis

Posted by: TBRMInsanity Apr 18 2009, 02:02 PM

4-7K wow your GM is generous. I would be lucky to get a couple K for most of my runs.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 18 2009, 02:15 PM

I've heard that before, though I was told it was a fire hose. *Shrug*

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Apr 18 2009, 02:22 PM

???

If you can start with $250k a year and make an average of $2k a run after expenses , and average two runs every three weeks, you're looking at $70k a year. After you include middle-class living expenses, this is not exactly a flashy lifestyle - and god forbid you're a rigger with his perpetual need for new vehicles ('cos the old ones went kablooey.)

The designs and configuration for an aftermarket car tuning company's Corvette upgrade represent easily a good $500,000 in R&D. You'd think that their competitors would pay $50,000 so that they could launch a slightly cheaper but identical product at exactly the same time.

Posted by: toturi Apr 18 2009, 03:05 PM

It depends. A couple of K per person every week is alright. 7k per person per week is generous. Me? It depends on the Johnson. 10k per person for a high risk job that can be completed in 1 week is not unheard of, 1k for a weekend's bodyguard job has been done before.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 18 2009, 03:09 PM

start stealing and selling cars.
one car should more or less equal one run.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 18 2009, 03:16 PM

Quite. Even if you only get 500 for it, that's still 2 cars a night to be more profitable than most of your runs.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 18 2009, 03:38 PM

at a much lower risk.
and more opportunities too.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 18 2009, 03:44 PM

And thus we return to the "Stealing Americars" discussion.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 18 2009, 04:02 PM

Well Put...

Posted by: Kingboy Apr 18 2009, 04:08 PM

Don't we have to update that to "Comet Boosting" these days?

Gotta admit it has a better ring to it...

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 19 2009, 01:16 AM

Hey, I actually got all the other PCs involved in that now that I am playing. Of course, we're playing a group of street thugs and such forming a gang, so we don't really do normal runs. But we have been jacking the hell out of cars and bikes. And we're selling them all to a Mafia owned chopshop, which is taking the mobs cut before they pay us. Helps avoid problems don't cha know.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2009, 01:21 AM

playing as a part of a street gamg IS a lot of fun...

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 19 2009, 01:32 AM

Yep. And the dice pools all seem so... tiny. Hell, my muscle Ork (he's no sammy, but trying) has 8 dice not counting specialization or smartlink. I think the only guy throwing more than 12 dice in any area is the Adept and he throws 15 dice for piloting his bike. Ether we start the combat (with massive amounts of full auto fire) or we run like hell if it is started by the other guys. Feels way different from the group of Sammys and Adepts who slaughter hoards in a couple rounds.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2009, 01:42 AM

The Mercury Comet is the Ford Americar, just the Luxury Package for having the Mercury Name. Like the Lincoln Spawlcar is the ultimate version of the line.

Well, that's what I called the Lincolns, anyhow, and my group likes that.

So far, my group has a Customized Jaguar that they boosted from the Mickey Mouse SWAT Team (No, I'm not joking. They had the ears on their helmets and everything.).

When I start that campaign up again, and finish it, I might try a lower-powered campaign where the group is all that's surviving from a Gang, and they have to return to their position of power the long, hard way. Where starting out with "Comet Boosting" and "Jaguar Jackin'" is what you do before breakfast, to get money FOR breakfast.

Put some "Punk" back into the game.

Posted by: ornot Apr 19 2009, 01:53 AM

i find the biggest curb on looting is time.
Fencing is not a major issue with the absurd face in my group. Okay he's not exactly a pornomancer, but he's good enough to fence stuff reasonably fast. I do warn them that if they try to carry 4 or 5 longarms they'll begin to accrue penalties, not to mention the need to strip them of rfids and spyware in the smartgun...
Boosting cars is not as lucrative as all that. The market will dry up, law enforcement will crack down and you're still only making 500 nuyen split 5 ways per car.

But back to time... In a corp facility not only will everything be tagged, but the resources they can bring to bear should be able to destroy any running team, so in and out before that comes to pass should be the goal. Vs street gangs, not only are the gang unlikely to have much of value, but survivors may come back with friends and bigger guns, or better yet, said gang enjoys the patronage of a syndicate. Hence hanging about is not recommended.
An example from my game: the team had just knocked over a Vory organ legging operation, while they were loading the guards' guns, the organs and a dozen frozen embryos into their truck they came under rocket fire from Vory heavys and a bunch of their tame gangs. They still managed to make it out, but they didn't have time to strip everything, and the Vory are out for their blood.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2009, 11:33 AM

Not as fast as you'd think. I live in the Auto Theft Capital of Canada. And just last month we celebrated something that hasn't happened in over a decade: "No cars reported stolen in 24-hours."

Of course, people have started to not even involve the Police, as they usually get back something that used to be their car, and was a Homeless Person's "Apartment" for awhile. After it got totally smashed up.


Skinny Pete: "If there's one thing I know, it's never to mess with mother nature, mother in-laws and, mother freaking Ukrainians." - The Italian Job (2003).

This is a prime example of why you should be careful in your looting ways.

Posted by: The Jake Apr 19 2009, 12:42 PM

Deja vu indeed.

- J.

Posted by: the_real_elwood Apr 19 2009, 02:49 PM

If you want to curb looting, just pay your runners better. Then they won't have any incentive to steal petty junk from whoever they meet on a run.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2009, 03:16 PM

Ditto... Though I still tend to dynamicallyreplace gear (for things that have broken or become useless on the run... ie. picking up a functional weapon to continue shooting) while the run is in progress... usually these items are then discarded as the run completes to avoid the unpleasantness of being tracked...

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 19 2009, 03:20 PM

Yeah, picking up Weapons to shoot with is something else than picking them up to sell them.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 19 2009, 03:35 PM

Agreed... Used a last resort, when you have absolutely no other options available to you...

Posted by: tisoz Apr 19 2009, 07:06 PM

I was reading this and it sounded familiar and I had to laugh when I figured out why - AC/DC's TNT. Or was there actually someplace that used it as T&T?

On the original topic... Ways I have seen looting curbed involved hearing a ticking and, if that wasn't enough, finding a timer counting down with seconds left. Dropping the group in fluid, like an ocean, lake or or river, or even a deep pool of stuff in a sewer, or vats of liquid like beer, fat, oil, blood, etc.. The sound of sirens approaching.

I like the idea of positive and negative reinforcement where being quick and doing the job avoids conflict. I se too many GMs decide something attracts attention for a running firefight to escape in the nick of time. If something is always alerting security and the group is always getting into shoot outs, you are negatively reinforcing the positive actions you desire. How will the group see any difference between random conflicts and conflicts arising from taking too much time due to looting?

Posted by: Dumori Apr 19 2009, 08:19 PM

My infiltrator goes in with his hold out ad stick and shock and capsule rounds but fi it hits that fan he'll pick up a gun to use. There and then. Might sell it after might clean it up and maybe use it a few more times or might brake it down tag erase it and dump the parts in a river. He will loot stuff however but normally its the shiny stuff like prototypes and the flashy expensive guns and drones. He has an AI pc on his comlink to grab paydata as well and get round security. His looting is not just getting it all in a bag and running its much more selective. But if hes grab a few large prototype and trasport to get it out hot he might go for the small extras and corpses/unconscious guards. To sell to other corps, ghouls and the other infected or just for the wear. But only if he knows hell make it out safely. With the main goal done.

Posted by: CanRay Apr 19 2009, 08:44 PM

As it's refering to Trinitrotoluene, I'm willing to bet that AC/DC got it right and had it as TNT like it's supposed to be.

Which, by any other name, blows stuff up real good!

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 09:34 AM

To a certain extent you have already made my point. Many cars are stolen for fun, joyrides and whathaveyou. The most commonly stolen cars, according to my brief research, are older more common cars, which makes a certain amount of sense. They're easier to find and easier to steal.

However, cars stolen to be sold on are typically the higher end cars, which automatically relegates them to a minority of all stolen cars. This again makes a lot of sense, since the work required to export and/or forge new documents is the same regardless of the type of car.

All of the above points to a relatively small market for stolen cars, although expensive parts of a car may be stolen, since they are easier to move, this is not the cause of the majority of vehicle crime, however.

It is naive to believe that a group of runners can make an indefinite living from selling stolen Mercury Comets, or even Comet parts. Supply will exceed demand, driving the price down, and you may even raise the ire of organised crime groups that object to the runners muscling in on their operation.

Posted by: Stahlseele Apr 20 2009, 09:37 AM

Technically, you create your own demand by stealing the parts in the first place.
let us say you steal half of a car . . the owner needs a new half of parts.
so he has to buy them somehwere. and that somewhere has to get them too.
there you step in. basically, you sell the parts back to the owner through a middleman.

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 09:59 AM

That brings you closer to getting rumbled, since suppliers can be audited, and the part's history might be tracked. The overheads involved are not inconsiderable, so the profit margin is slim. Basically the reason car crime is not more lucrative than running is the same reason most people don't go through the trash to find old bottles and cans, and sell those to recycling firms.

There's no reason not to allow runners to loot some things, but point out the weight/profit value. And keep a tight hold on who they can sell stuff to, and for how much.

I don't think that simply paying more is the answer. There is a fine balance between nuyen accumulation and karma accumulation, so if you pay more, you need to increase karma awards. As the power level increases the type of game changes, which might not be your intention, thus shortening the duration of your campaign.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 20 2009, 02:58 PM

No. Wrong.

There are many many people out there (usually homeless & jobless) who make a living stealing cars. They're paid $500 per car, so they tend to steal six or seven a night. I don't know about you, but MY job doesn't pay me that much ($3000 a night), you could do that once a month and live very well ($36000 a year, or roughly equivalent to a full time, $18 an hour job).

Who do they sell to?

Chop shops.

It's far, far easier to wipe the history of a chopped part than it is to forge documents to a whole car. Oh, that's a bumper. Where'd you get it? Well, I am a mechanics shop, yes? Yes, but where'd the bumper come from. Oh, that one came off of one of my other customers, he was replacing his bumpers with some newer ones, you can see this one's kinda dinged up, but still usable. I see...and who was this customer? Oh, John Noname, here's his address. So John, your car got new bumpers? Yup. Like 'em?

Posted by: HappyDaze Apr 20 2009, 03:28 PM

Or you simply take the stolen cars and sell them in the Barrens (where the police won't bother looking for a handful of stolen cars) for a few hundred nuyen. Yes, there are plenty of people there that can afford them but don't want the hassle of a legal purchase a SINless might have to go through. Remember that a big part of SR is that lawless zones exist, so make them work for you.

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 03:42 PM

Please refrain from flatly contradicting me without offering any indication of proof. I can point you towards the crimes statistics I looked up (albeit with little depth) if you so wish.

Do you know anyone that makes a living selling stolen cars to chop shops for parts? You say "many many", so let's assume 10. I can readily believe 60 cars are stolen a night, in a big city but I can't see all those going to chopshops. However, I also notice you refer to dollars, so you presumably come from the other side of the pond, where anything is obviously possible, but how much demand can there be for used car parts? When was the last time you bought second hand bumpers? How many bumpers is a small autoshop going to sell in a month? Over here the biggest cost of replacing anything in your car is the labour, the parts are practically a gratuity, especially in older cars, which my figures say are the most commonly stolen. Perhaps that's because the parts are all stolen.

I've not denied that there is a market for stolen cars, I just don't think it's as large as is being claimed, and this "if you don't pay the runners a gagillion nuyen, they're better off stealing cars" argument is tired and old and unsupportable.

@Happydaze: Plenty of rich folk live in the Barrens? Where did they get their money? Probably crime, so they can just as easily steal their own car. Even if you do find people prepared to pay 500 nuyen a car, you'll need to steal 10 cars (easy enough) and find 10 punters (not so easy, it's not like they're likely to be frequent repeat customers unless they drive like Mr Magoo) to earn enough money to pay your cushy mid level living costs. I think you're being pretty generous offering 500 a car too.

Posted by: Gypsy-Dancer Apr 20 2009, 03:52 PM

Nothing beats healthy paranoia.
Besides, it's sometimes better to loot gear and use it on runs, as opposed to your own, so that Lone Star will have a harder time matching bullets to guns to shooters.
And really, can a character have too many weapons stashed?

Posted by: ICPiK Apr 20 2009, 04:14 PM

Not trying to start a typical dumpshock argument, but his facts are pretty straight. The going rate for a stolen ride no matter how expensive... even mercedes and lexus and the equivalent is about 500. Growing up with a lot of shady characters and being one my self for a while it's true. There is also a million dateline specials with under cover footage and snitches and professional car thiefs tell their stories. The tricky part comes in as just your average everyday hood is not going to be able to sell a stolen car. Depending what area your in there will be a form of organized crime that will be the only buyer and if you dont know who or where the ride is worthless. These groups have the access to locations, the tools, and the means to ship em out of the country.

Posted by: ICPiK Apr 20 2009, 04:19 PM

OH, just found this too

http://www.gaa.qc.ca/en/car_theft/overview.asp

Automobile theft is a widespread phenomenon in industrialized countries. According to Interpol, 3 million vehicles are stolen in the world every year. Worldwide, the profits from the sale of stolen vehicles are somewhere in the order of US$19 billion.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 20 2009, 04:46 PM

The numbers I heard were from a radio story. Unfortunately it was long enough ago that I don't know if it was NPR, PRI, or a local show. Or what show. The host of the show spent a night with cops posing as a stolen car buyer (chop shop or whatever) in order to get faces of the people doing the stealing and the names of people they normally sell to (IIRC they weren't making arrests that night, as they were trying to find the buyers to bust them--no buyers, no thieves).

They were paying $500 a car, as that's what the thieves normally got and they'd see the same person several times a night (I'd say between 4 and 8 times). I don't recall of the same thieves showed up multiple nights in a row though.

Posted by: crazyconscript Apr 20 2009, 04:56 PM

and now we seem to be back at the car-boosting thread, rather than discussing how to stop rampant looting on the part of the players.
Although stealing vehicles is probably the easiest way of looting stuff possible, i have yet to have a player in my games who has even had it cross their minds for some reason. They only ever seem to want the shinier stuff that the corps keep around their facilities

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 20 2009, 04:59 PM

Why do runners run?
Why do car thieves steal cars?
Why do you do that thing that you do?

I always wonder why I'm not the boss, apparently it's simple as deciding to just be that...

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 05:03 PM

Interesting read ICPiK. I maintain that my point is valid, since that page does state that most thefts in Western Canada are opportunistic, that is for joyriding or some other non economic reason; which is pretty much what I have read about the situation local to me. I shouldn't be surprised if organised vehicle crime is more limited in the UK since there is less demand for right hand drive cars. Types of crime obviously vary by region.

To put that 3 million in perspective, there are apparently over 800 million cars on the road globally, and over 70 million new cars sold every year. I have no idea how much that's all worth, but I suspect it dwarfs $19billion. I guess this does make the global car market huge, and even a small chunk of that economy being illegal is still a pretty big economy. It is, however, distributed across the world, which spreads it prety thin. Furthermore, Interpol cite organised vehicle crime networks being responsible for chop shops and stolen to order cars. I don't think this is likely to change in SR's 207x timeline, so my other point about the Syndicates having a stranglehold on vehicle crime - and not wanting interlopers - holds true.

Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 20 2009, 05:05 PM

The car thief is being paid for the service of stealing the car, not for the value of the asset they stole. The asset value is being realized by the syndicate.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 20 2009, 05:16 PM

No it probably has changed much, but on the other hand, Fox might have finally picked up the Russian show, http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980330/the_arts.television.russ25.html.
(I'm still feverishly trying to get a hold of one episode).

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 05:21 PM

Fair enough, but you might try being a little less intractable and confrontational when engaging in forum debate, it raises fewer hackles.

The Intercept? Dear lord, that's incredible!

@DireRadient: I wasn't aware that was in doubt. My argument is that car theft is not a viable alternative to running your players can adopt if they think you're not paying enough.

Posted by: Draco18s Apr 20 2009, 05:46 PM

I didn't read the whole article, so I don't know if it mentioned the game show's two winners (that I am aware of):
One guy drove the car onto a moving train (we hope he had a ramp).
One guy floated the can out into the middle of a lake using some kind of raft.

So while it was propoganda for the Russian cops (as they almost always won, beating the living daylights out of the contestant), it only encouraged the more creative thieves to be, well, more creative.

Posted by: Bai Shen Apr 20 2009, 06:00 PM

It's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitrotoluene, not T&T.

Posted by: Kev Apr 20 2009, 06:04 PM

Gang campaigns are too much fun. Start with around 300 BP, availability 6, and you're good to go! Man, this makes me nostalgic for my gang campaign that died....

We were a hacker gang in the Barrens, and I played the ork "hacker" (Datasearch skill and Hacking skill of 1, okay 'link, and an obvious cyberarm and shotgun; guess what my job in the gang was)? Eventually got embroiled in a gang turf war, turned a few bikes and cars against their drivers... fun stuff.

As for the actual issue of looting... how bad is it becoming I guess is the real operative here. If they're taking a few guns, well... why not let them? Lord knows if they're blowing away some corp sec, then they're probably spending enough on ammunition right? Most of the suggestions will go a long way to curbing that type of behavior, especially if they don't carry a tag eraser with them.

Of course, if they're just taking random stuff from the facility (scientific equipment, etc.) well then... they're just being resourceful. Honestly, if they're taking everything but the wallpaper, hit them with encumberance and faitgue. Keep in mind also that corps might tag certain high-value items and track their movement through the facility to make sure those high-value items stay where intended. If they're looting that much, you could have the security hacker/rigger track them through the complex that way.

Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 20 2009, 07:27 PM

I’m freaking quoting a magic talking sword and people are telling me I’m wrong? I know the song and I know what TNT is. The way the sword sings it is "cuz I'ma T an' T". No more people telling me I'm wrong when I'm right and they have no idea what their talking about. (If that offends you, learn to read the whole post instead of nit' picking people.)

Posted by: ornot Apr 20 2009, 07:33 PM

The article you quoted only listed one winner; his beacon broke, and he just drive around without the cops knowing where he was. It also said the Russian cops were pissed because the public sided with the fugitive, and not the cops. Amusingly the cops are still being paid with public money, despite starring in a tv show.

@InfinityZen: you might find they used T&T to avoid copyright or something. Seeing as it's apparently lyrics from ACDC. Meh...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 21 2009, 01:17 AM

Whew... But your right...

Posted by: Warlordtheft Apr 21 2009, 04:40 PM

It is just a sign some of us are getting a little long in the tooth.

Back on topic...I never had a problem with my players looting. Most of the time they didn't because of time. Of the few time it did there was definitely an incentive (the assault rifles had APDS), but in that instance they desrved for a the good plan they had, and crappy perception rolls on my part (glitch to figure out that doc was forged ). However notable issues include RFID tags, fencing the gear, and time.