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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Problems with the Levitate Spell
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 01:48 AM
I don't understand how the opposed test for levitating a person or an item a person is holding works.
It seems to imply that the mage would first to roll to see if he can cast the spell and how much he can lift. If he succeeds he then rolls Force x2 again the opponents STR+BOD. Is this right?
What if the mage just lifts the board/rug thats under the guy?
What happens when a mage lifts a car with people in it? Do they still get a STR + BODY roll? Why? And how do I handle multiple people?
And why get fling when I can get levitate? If levitate only can "fling" items at Force X hits then I can see a difference but if it can fling items as quick as the fling spell....
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Apr 22 2009, 02:34 AM
Levitate reads like it's a single target spell. If you wanna snag multiple targets, you'd probably want to manufacture the LOS(A) version of the same spell. Drain would suck, but at least you'd have the spell.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2009, 04:04 AM
It seems to imply that the mage would first to roll to see if he can cast the spell and how much he can lift. If he succeeds he then rolls Force x2 again the opponents STR+BOD. Is this right?
What if the mage just lifts the board/rug thats under the guy?
What happens when a mage lifts a car with people in it? Do they still get a STR + BODY roll? Why? And how do I handle multiple people?
And why get fling when I can get levitate? If levitate only can "fling" items at Force X hits then I can see a difference but if it can fling items as quick as the fling spell....
If I remember right, targeting an object (rather than a person) must beat the Object Resistance of that object...
Posted by: Caadium Apr 22 2009, 04:30 AM
Fling and Levitate are both different spells with different purposes. Fling is basically using magic to make a ranged throwing attack and hit someone with an object (al la Darth Vader throwing ducting and such at Luke in Empire). Levitate can be used at certain speeds, but damage is subjective, but possible.
If you wanted to levitate a care with people in it you need to get enough hits to equal the weight of the car + the combined weight of all folks inside it bearing in mind that 1 hit = 200 kg. And at that point the folks inside do not get a resistance roll. They can simply open the door and jump out.
If you were trying to levitate the rug that someone was standing on I'd consider that to be a held item and require you to roll against them. If you are trying to levitate a floor board from underneath them I'd say use the higher of either the building's resistance (it is holding that board) or the player (since he is standing on it).
Just how I'd rule in a spur of the moment GM call.
Posted by: darthmord Apr 22 2009, 12:14 PM
If you wanted to levitate a care with people in it you need to get enough hits to equal the weight of the car + the combined weight of all folks inside it bearing in mind that 1 hit = 200 kg. And at that point the folks inside do not get a resistance roll. They can simply open the door and jump out.
If you were trying to levitate the rug that someone was standing on I'd consider that to be a held item and require you to roll against them. If you are trying to levitate a floor board from underneath them I'd say use the higher of either the building's resistance (it is holding that board) or the player (since he is standing on it).
Just how I'd rule in a spur of the moment GM call.
This is where I'd differ. I wouldn't give the rug the benefit of the person standing on it. A prime example of this sort of thing from D&D... casting magic and dealing with magic resistant mobs. Casting a spell at such a mob involves its magic resistance. Casting a spell at the ground below them (or the sky above them) does NOT. The target of the spell does NOT have magic resistance and thus the character's / mob's magic resistance doesn't come into play.
Ex: Magic resistant mob is going to attack. You cast earthquake and have it affect the ground under the mob. No saving throws or magic resistance checks. Mob takes damage from earthquake.
Casting Levitate on the rug is no different. It's a wholely separate object from person standing on it. The rug doesn't get the benefit of being a carried item (thus getting the better of human or rug saving throws).
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Apr 22 2009, 01:39 PM
Sounds good to me. 
Also, I do remember creating an area effect, voluntary target only version of levitate. Made it so much more useful getting the entire group over a wall or onto a building in one shot. And if someone suddenly needed to drop out of the spell to land on an enemy or something, it was easy as pie to suddenly just be unwilling, and the spell dropped them.
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 02:04 PM
I am retagging this "SR4" to help avoid confusion.
Here's the parts of the spell that confuses me:
"If the caster is attempting to levitate an item held by a living being, make an Opposed Test between the spell’s Force x 2 and the holder’s Strength + Body. The caster must have at least 1 net hit to levitate the item away. If the caster is attempting to levitate an unwilling living being, the Opposed Test uses the target’s Strength + Body. You can use this spell to levitate yourself, if desired."
If the caster needs to make a Force x 2 test it seems to me that it is necessary to make another test after successfully casting the spell since you never use Force x 2 to cast the spell. See my issue with this spell?
Not only that, this doesn't seem correct. If a mage gets enough hits to move 1000kg then whats the STR+BODY roll for? If it's a resistance shouldn't it be based off of something other than STR? The spell just seems poorly thought out.
As for the "why ever buy Fling" part of my question here is the entry from the Levitate spell that I'm questioning:
"Objects flung into other things should be handled as a Ranged Attack Test (see Fling), inflicting a number of boxes of Stun damage as decided by the gamemaster (especially sharp or dangerous objects may do Physical damage at the gamemaster’s discretion)."
Posted by: Straight Razor Apr 22 2009, 02:32 PM
as for your fling question, lower drain, limited effect. that's all. If your concerned about making your drain all the time and you want to fling stuff at mobs for damage, then fling's you spell.
as for the strange wording on the levitate spell you got me there on that one. i would have to re-write that rules for it. I am only now learning 4th. check the errata for any changes.
The force X 2 test seams like a test to see if you can over power the spell after it's been cast. Though that dosen't make seance to me ether. I would just note my successes upon original casting.
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 02:35 PM
Fling (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: I • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
Levitate (Physical)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
Same drain unfortunately.
Posted by: Marduc Apr 22 2009, 02:42 PM
If you want to levitate for example a gun which is being held by an opponent, the opponent holds it with Strenght + Body and the spell pulls at it with Force X 2.
The one which I don't understand is where the people themselfs get to resist the spell with body + strenght
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 02:50 PM
The one which I don't understand is where the people themselfs get to resist the spell with body + strenght
And that Force x 2 versus STR+BODY appears to be a separate check at that.
Looks like I'm going to take a crash-course on spell creation and try to reverse engineer this crap. Maybe it'll make more sense then.
Posted by: Marduc Apr 22 2009, 03:01 PM
The speed is different and the weight limit is different.
Fling
max weight: [Force] kilograms
speed: no limit
damage: Strenght/2 with Strenght = Magic/2
damage: Magic/4
is Ranged Attack with roll spellcasting + Magic for Ranged Combat Test
Levitate
Max weight: [Force] x 200 kg
max speed :Movement rate equal to the spell’s Magic x net Spellcasting hits in meters per turn
Is Ranged Attack with roll spellcasting + Magic for Ranged Combat Test
inflicting a number of boxes of Stun damage as decided by the gamemaster
Fling no mention of opposed test for flinging away guns held by oppents.
Posted by: Marduc Apr 22 2009, 03:08 PM
It seems an opposed strenght check with Force functioning as both attributes, to see if the spell is stronger or the person holding the item.
What if you levitate the targets gun with a levitate of force 4 and get 4 hits.
You'd be able to lift 4*200kg = 800kg
Now you throw opposed strenght check Force + Force = 8
You get less hits than you opponent.
What happens
A) You levitate the gun, with the opponent still holding onto it. As you can lift upto 800 kg this is no problem.
Or
B) You get another opposed strenght check to see if you can levitate the opponent holding the gun.
OR
C) The spell fails to lift the gun and the opponent holding onto it.
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 03:08 PM
Awesome, thanks for the clairification Marduc. Now all I need is an official rewrite of the Levitate spell and I'll be happy (oh, and a rewrite of the ramming rules too).
Posted by: Marduc Apr 22 2009, 03:13 PM
If you levitate a car and drop it onto the opposition,
is it
A) a ranged combat attack
B) a perception test to see if the car will fall onto said opposition
And the damage
is it
A) falling damage of the car
B) an attack with body of the car acting as strenght in damage = strenght/2
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 04:05 PM
My group has talked about this one and here's our stance:
If the mage levitates the car a foot or so off the group and flings it at a guy its a ramming check at the mage's levitation speed. Unfortunately we can't see much of a difference between this and a car being propelled under it's own power.
Dropping a car on a guy's head:
If he sees it coming you probably can't drop the car on him. You can probably ram him with it but a free fall drop would be hard to eyeball. Now if you had the time to line it up and he and everyone else was oblivious to it I'd say that the mage would simply have to make a perception check to make sure he has it over the victim. If he succeeds its a Body check. And no, I don't know the damage of a falling car. Probably "All of your Physical Boxes" would be my guess.
Posted by: Dakka Dakka Apr 22 2009, 04:30 PM
You'd be able to lift 4*200kg = 800kg
Posted by: DireRadiant Apr 22 2009, 04:30 PM
Levitate is sustained and the effects vary, Fling is instant and only does damage.
Levitating a held object successfully does not mean you automatically succeed in removing it from someone's grasp. A second test to see if it works is required. Even if the object is not removed from the grasp, it is still levitated as long as the spell is sustained.
Posted by: Neraph Apr 22 2009, 04:34 PM
Not with Levitate. You just need to pop 1 Success per 100 Kilos of the target. No OR Test.
Posted by: Neraph Apr 22 2009, 04:38 PM
is it
A) a ranged combat attack
B) a perception test to see if the car will fall onto said opposition
And the damage
is it
A) falling damage of the car
B) an attack with body of the car acting as strenght in damage = strenght/2
I'd follow the ramming rules, based on the falling speed. It's listed at like 250 meter first turn, 500 every after or something.
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 22 2009, 04:39 PM
Damn, I should have caught that. Thanks Dakka.
Posted by: Marduc Apr 23 2009, 08:59 AM
You'd be able to lift 4*200kg = 800kg
Now you throw opposed strenght check Force + Force = 8
You get less hits than you opponent.
What happens
A) You levitate the gun, with the opponent still holding onto it. As you can lift upto 800 kg this is no problem.
Or
B) You get another opposed strenght check to see if you can levitate the opponent holding the gun.
OR
C) The spell fails to lift the gun and the opponent holding onto it.
but what about the second part?
Posted by: Caadium Apr 23 2009, 09:18 AM
What if you levitate the targets gun with a levitate of force 4 and get 4 hits.
You'd be able to lift 4*200kg = 800kg
Now you throw opposed strenght check Force + Force = 8
You get less hits than you opponent.
What happens
A) You levitate the gun, with the opponent still holding onto it. As you can lift upto 800 kg this is no problem.
Or
B) You get another opposed strenght check to see if you can levitate the opponent holding the gun.
OR
C) The spell fails to lift the gun and the opponent holding onto it.
I would say that as long as you continue to sustain the spell you can make a new roll each IP.
Posted by: Marduc Apr 23 2009, 11:00 AM
but do you lift the guy holding the sword if he keeps hold of it.
Posted by: Caadium Apr 23 2009, 02:14 PM
No. The man resisted the pull of the magic. Yes, you might have the potential to lift 800 kg, but the pull that was applied to the sword itself was resisted. Think of the max weight you can lift as analagous to the max weight a character's strength allows you to lift. Just because you are a troll, if you fail to pull a weapon from someone else's hand do you wonder if you somehow lifted the entire man (weapon in hand), or do you accept that you failed and didn't live up to your max potential?
Posted by: Ayeohx Apr 23 2009, 04:31 PM
I think my original problem is that I was thinking about Levitate as an open test. but this is far from right; especially since I think they did away with open test. Its a standard Threshold test of course.
Example:
My mage wants to levitate a guy's sword out of his hands.
First, I need to see if I can levitate that no-dachi at all. At 3kg I only need to score 1 hit. I get 4 hits easily succeeding. It's important to note that I am not lifting 800kgs of weight, I was only making a Threshold test versus a 3kg no-dachi of which I succeeded. The net successes are used for movement speed which will be 15 meters a turn (force x net hits). I can levitate the sword up to 5 meters this phase (3 init pass).
Next, I and this fellow holding the sword are going to have a tug of was. Since this was a force 5 levitate spell I get 10 dice (Force x2 for this check) and my opponent gets 7 dice (STR 4 + BODY 3). I get 2 hits, he gets one. The sword is mine.
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