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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Ambidexterity and Martial Arts
Posted by: Brutalice Apr 22 2009, 02:16 AM
Oi chummers, im looking to get my street monster two attacks in melee. Do i go with ambidexterity positive quality or do i go with martial arts out of Arsenal? If you could provide some input that would be great.
Posted by: Glyph Apr 22 2009, 02:32 AM
In SR4, you can attack more than one person by splitting your dice pool, whether you are wielding one or two weapons, but honestly, the best way to get more attacks is to have more Initiative Passes - in SR3, they didn't matter that much, but in SR4, they are important again.
Arsenal's martial arts rules are where you get two weapon style maneuver, which gives you a massive boost to your defense. It is helped with either the Ambidexterity positive quality, or the off-hand training maneuver - the maneuver is cheaper if you only want to be ambidextrous for two-weapon fighting, but ambidexterity is better if you also want to do things like dual-wield pistols.
Posted by: Brutalice Apr 22 2009, 02:45 AM
Thanks Glyph
Posted by: Falconer Apr 22 2009, 02:57 AM
Or you could just save the points, and take the -2 offhand penalty on your parrying dagger, which should already be rolling full defense dice using the two weapon defense maneuver.
Posted by: The Jake Apr 22 2009, 03:09 AM
Arsenal's martial arts rules are where you get two weapon style maneuver, which gives you a massive boost to your defense. It is helped with either the Ambidexterity positive quality, or the off-hand training maneuver - the maneuver is cheaper if you only want to be ambidextrous for two-weapon fighting, but ambidexterity is better if you also want to do things like dual-wield pistols.
My build in the street sam thread used Ambidexterity. Just make sure you take Two Weapon Defence and Riposte! Two maneouvers both essential to a martial arts build that uses two melee weapons!
- J.
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 22 2009, 04:02 AM
I Like the martial arts option myself as well...
Posted by: Brutalice Apr 22 2009, 04:33 AM
Thanks guys, i was leaning towards Martial Arts myeslf Tym, will probably take that since i am specialized and do more damage with my fists than the mono-filament sword i have, due to the fact i have titanium bone-lacing and a high strengh.
Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 22 2009, 07:09 AM
Well, you can fix up Blades, too. Check this out:
3 Martial Arts with +3 DV to Blades(with a good Agility)
Blades(Swords): 5(+2)
Ambidexterity
Riposte
Two-Weapon Fighting
You can now parry with one(on FULL defense), and attack with the other freely. You can't use Ambidexterity with barehanded martial arts, which is one of the drawbacks. If his strength is say, 5, and he has a Monosword(6P/-1AP), and +3 DV Blades, he'll have 9P, -1 AP, and +1 reach. If unarmed, this would be 9P, 0 reach, 0 AP(assuming +3 damage, since +3 other damage comes with the martial arts maximum and the bone lacing is +3, so it's really the same damage). With the dual-wielding he'll also have access to the Riposte/Parry/Full Pool goodness.
(Also, should you pick up a No-Dachi or something, that will end up as 10P, +2 reach, -2 AP, since the Blades specialty will come into play should the need to go 2-handed arise.)
Posted by: Brutalice Apr 22 2009, 07:14 AM
Thats very good advice Elf, and a great use of karma. I have been wanting the ambidexterity so i dont have to spend my int pass to switch from ranged to melee. That way ill have the choice at all times, and i wasnt sure if i could get the same effect from Martial arts. Thanks for the advice.
Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 22 2009, 07:22 AM
The nice thing about Martial Arts is that it's not all about unarmed fighting-some add to clubs, some blades, and some even help your shooting. 
The AP of the swords are a very nice thing. I play a close-combat monster myself; he's got ridiculously high Strength and tons of extra damage, but sometimes I do find myself wanting a longer weapon with some AP in some situations. (He does have Kick Attack for +1 reach, but lacks the AP and of course a No-Dachi is 2 reach.. He also has an art that helps his blades as well, though, so it can come into play, but because I specialized the other way I don't have as high of DV on the blades as he does barehanded, which is rather amusing. Well, there's always Karma. 
)
Blade martial arts to look at are Arnis de Mano, Ars Cybernetica(which also helps regular blades, not just cyber implants), and there are a couple of others there.
For getting extra fun while shooting, good ol' Firefight. (You mentioned wanting to switch between ranged/melee fast, consider the Iiajutsu and Ready Weapon as a Free Action, the latter which is in Firefight to be used with guns, and the former can let you quick draw and attack in the same turn with a blade. Ready Weapon as a Free Action is an actual advantage to the martial art, Iiajutsu is a maneuver you can purchase.)
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 22 2009, 07:35 AM
Race: Troll (+40)
Changeling III (+15) X2 Shiva Arms (30) (+/- other abilities)
Ambidexterity X3 (+15)
Blades (Swords) 5/+2
Martial Art: Sangre y Acero (X6 Arms IS a bizarre combat style)
Muscle Toner 2
Equip Swords (No-Dashi for trolls become onehanded) (+2 Reach)
Here's the kicker, how do we handle reach? Say that the character has Agility 5. His dicepool becomes 5+2+5: 12
Reach Bonus is +18D6 (X6 weapons with +2 + Troll bonus)
Specialization is +2
I would assume that we Split Dicepool X6 and the reach bonus would be for each weapon, as would the specialization.
This would give 2+2+3: 7D6 X6 attacks. 
We can most likely increase the dicepool a bit with some tweaking.
EDIT:
Whoops, i forgot that we also add personalized grip (and metahuman customization) to the swords, adding a +1D6 for each sword.
So, 8D6 X6 attacks
Posted by: Brutalice Apr 22 2009, 07:41 AM
Lol i do more damage unarmed as well, which is kinda silly at times. I will definitaly look into those styles you mentioned. I will probably end up taking Martial Arts as well as Ambidexterity. This way ill have all my bases covered. Thanks again, I am new to dumpshock and really enjoy all the info and opinions of fellow runners and gm's as well. 
Posted by: ElFenrir Apr 22 2009, 07:50 AM
It's strange, but it seems to be that a LOT of people end up doing more damage unarmed, even though it's technically easier to get the blade damage higher(and my dood is no exception.)
To get Unarmed damage up, you need either Bone Density or Lacing for +1, 2, or 3. You can get the same bonus, up to +1, for Martial Arts.
Blade-wise, you don't get the Bone Lacing damage, BUT they tend to do more damage anyhow. Katanas and Monoswords automatically do Str/2+3, the same as Titanium Bone Lacing. One can also get the +3 DV to Blade attacks, essentially equaling it out. But yeah-somehow a lot of builds end up the other way.
Adepts, now, are a whole other ball game. Critical Strike is what boosts their Unarmed damage through the roof, and they don't have an equivalent for blades. But for cyber, the sky's basically the limit, it's not really ''optimal'' to go one way or the other, as they both can reach about equal(with Blades winning out in the end due to Reach and AP, but it's not *that* much more advantageous that it's the ''Pick it or go home'' choice.) I have a character I play normally(well, as often as we play) now, but I always tinker around with new builds and ideas and came across a few fun blades/clubs type builds in my time.
Posted by: Medicineman Apr 22 2009, 08:56 AM
Changeling III (+15) X2 Shiva Arms (30) (+/- other abilities)
Ambidexterity X3 (+15)
Blades (Swords) 5/+2
Martial Art: Sangre y Acero (X6 Arms IS a bizarre combat style)
Muscle Toner 2
Jou'd be needing Ambidexterity 5 Times(1 for each Arm: it sounds ridicoulous ,but them's the Rules)
and Two Handed Swords wielded 1 Handed by Trolls gives a Modifier of -1 for Each Attack
Multihanded Fighting By RAW only for Reach 0 or 1 Weapons
So If Your GMs allows 6 NoDachi for your Troll (it would be like Fighting with 6 Katanas for a Human)
it wold be a Dicepool of 7 x6 Attacks (- Reach of Opponents Weapon,- visibility(fighting a Ninja f.E.),etc)
(the Same with 6 Katana)
I Have a Nartaki-Elf with 4 Tulwars. Thats Awesome enough for Me
(so many Fighting Options
) with an Indian Dance
Medicienman
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 22 2009, 09:04 AM
Actually you would only need it for each OFF-Hand. Each pair of limbs have a main hand and an off hand. Its actually explained in the rules for Shiva Arms in Runners Companion.
Posted by: Medicineman Apr 22 2009, 09:10 AM
I'm sorry for Both of us,but You're wrong
RAW says that you need Ambidexterity for each hand
I think its stupid,because then I'd need Ambidexterity 3 times instead of 2 times which make more sense to me
If you have any Proof that you only need 1 Ambidexterity per Pair of Arms You would make me happy
with a happy Dance
Medicienamn
Posted by: Caadium Apr 22 2009, 09:26 AM
Not quite
The emphasis is mine. Simply put, just because your body has adapted to having extra independent arms, doesn't mean that your mind is better prepared to coordinate them. If you want to argue that each right arm should be considered dominant then you could also argue that you only need ambidextrous one time, for the left side. Conversely, if you want to argue that all right side is dominant, then a GM would be justified in aruging that that they are incapable of moving independently; all right arms must punch, swing, etc at the same time, meaning they must either take the same action or none at all.
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 22 2009, 09:50 AM
The emphasis is mine. Simply put, just because your body has adapted to having extra independent arms, doesn't mean that your mind is better prepared to coordinate them. If you want to argue that each right arm should be considered dominant then you could also argue that you only need ambidextrous one time, for the left side. Conversely, if you want to argue that all right side is dominant, then a GM would be justified in aruging that that they are incapable of moving independently; all right arms must punch, swing, etc at the same time, meaning they must either take the same action or none at all.
That was interesting. I read it as if each PAIR of Kali arms had a dominant hand. It would be good to have a clarification on this in the updated version, or at least regarding ambidexterity.
Posted by: The Jake Apr 22 2009, 10:03 AM
RAW says that you need Ambidexterity for each hand
I think its stupid,because then I'd need Ambidexterity 3 times instead of 2 times which make more sense to me
If you have any Proof that you only need 1 Ambidexterity per Pair of Arms You would make me happy
with a happy Dance
Medicienamn
Umm... no. He's right, you're wrong.
Cost: 5 BP
The character can use and handle objects equally well with both hands. The character does not suffer any modifiers for using an off-hand weapon (see p. 142). When using two
weapons at once, however, the character must still split his dice pool.
It's loud and clear - Ambidexterity affects the off-hand. Combined with the wording from Shiva Arms, it is clear that you pay on per off-hand basis.
- J.
Posted by: InfinityzeN Apr 22 2009, 01:55 PM
Just to clear something up, Firefight does not have a 'Ready Weapon as a Free Action' advantage. That would be Krav Maga, the other firearm martial art. Firefight is for shoot in melee (x2) and dodging melee attacks (x2), while Krav Maga is for free action ready weapon, free action take aim, shoot in melee, and disarm.
Posted by: mog Apr 22 2009, 04:26 PM
You can go on :
An elf adept with one cyberarms.
You tuned your cyberarms to reach 11 in agility, and 9 in Strength.
You raised your reaction to 5.
You take as Adept power :
- CounterAttack 1
- increased Reflexes 2
- Combat Senses 4
( I don't remember if you get enough Magic for all that! )
A fighting skill at 5 or 6
In your martial arts, you take two weapon fighting style maneuver.
So you can full parry you opponent with 7 (reaction ) + 12 ( 2x figthing skill ) + 4 ( Combat Sense ) = 23D
And you can attack with : 11 ( agility ) + 6 ( fighting skill ) + 1 ( Counterstrike ) + net hits at you parry test = min 19D
And with an 9 strength value, you DV is already high.
I like this combo because you are intouchable, and you kick asses!
Posted by: Jhaiisiin Apr 22 2009, 04:49 PM
Referencing other games for this, but typically a character with multiple sets of arms has 1 main hand, and the rest off hand. So with 4 arms, it's 1 main hand, 3 off hand. 6 arms? 1 main hand, 5 off hand. It seems that's the way the Devs intended this as well.
Though main handedness is determined by the brain, and it's usually one side versus the other, so it's possible that biologically, all your right hands, or all your left hands would be "main". It's probably a 1 main hand only situation for balance reasons.
Posted by: Writer Apr 22 2009, 05:03 PM
As someone who actually is ambidexterous in real life, I can say that it is far less important in unarmed fighting. Martial arts trains you how to use both hands in a fight, and how to defend with the off-hand. I have often been told to stick with one side or the other to learn the techniques properly. Unfortunately, I am not a good student, and tend to practice with whatever feels comfortable with at the moment.
On the other hand, I have done some medieval fencing and heavy weapons fighting. The advantage I had in being able to use both hands equally became much more apparent. Part of ambidexterity isn't just being able to use the "off-hand", but being able to use it independently (within the rules of general body mechanics and physics.) I have seen people use two weapons, but their arms are just doing the same actions, like a parry. It actually made it easier for me to get through their defenses.
As for multiple sets of arms, I think there is a point of diminishing returns. There is only so much room in front of you, and six arms would just start to get in the way. With grappling, however, more arms would be a devestating advantage. You could tie up your attackers one arm with two of yours, and still defend against the second arm, and strike out or go for another grab with the fourth.
I haven't looked at the RAW for ambidexterity and multiple pairs of arms. I would say that you would need ambidexterity for each extra arm, but I wouldn't change the rules if it is stated clearly the other way. The game is game, but I imagine that coordinating four pairs of arms isn't simply twice as difficult.
Posted by: Tyro Apr 23 2009, 07:29 PM
Not quite on topic as per OP, I know, but my favorite ridiculous six-armed damage dealer is an ork with 6 full-auto HE-loaded grenade launchers 
Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Apr 24 2009, 12:04 AM
The emphasis is mine. Simply put, just because your body has adapted to having extra independent arms, doesn't mean that your mind is better prepared to coordinate them. If you want to argue that each right arm should be considered dominant then you could also argue that you only need ambidextrous one time, for the left side. Conversely, if you want to argue that all right side is dominant, then a GM would be justified in aruging that that they are incapable of moving independently; all right arms must punch, swing, etc at the same time, meaning they must either take the same action or none at all.
On this, I have to say that I am in total Agreement...
Posted by: Writer Apr 24 2009, 08:38 AM
While I consider myself indifferent to differences among the variety of peoples in the world, I find myself responding to actually seeing someone with four arms standing in line at the grocery story with, "Oh, em, gee! Double you, tee, eff?" Also, it isn't like such a person could mingle in with a crowd. And, there couldn't be that many people like that, even in a major city. Would they have social clubs? Would they wave to each other on the street, even if they were strangers? Oh, but I might have to include someone like the diner owner in episode something offensive of the Star Wars series. Multi-armed, sloppy, overweight, poor hygiene, but generally friendly and full of information.
Anyway, I'm only half serious, and I am not judging anyone who would want to play multi-armed characters. I just had to ramble out some thoughts as I wind down from work.
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 24 2009, 08:54 AM
Since SURGE is a magical effect I'm inclined to say that realism regarding ambidexterity can be ignored, there are on the other hand a few things one can keep in mind.
If we would go with the idea that it would cost +5BP for each hand just to have a six limbed freak then that freak would cost 25Bp just to have full ambidexterity - a rather high cost for a very limited use - not counting race or changeling quality to GET the six limbs.
We could also assume that the Changeling quality and/or Nartaki race also automatically gives each pair of limbs a dominant hand, effectively copying the first pair.
When it comes to the effectiveness of having multiple arms in melee I would make it simple. You gain dice/attacks due to multiple limbs but I would add each arm after the first pair as a Gremlins negative quality for calculating glitches.
And just pray that you dont wield X6 Monowhips and critically glitches...
Then we have multiple firearms. The effectiveness of ambidexterity in ranged combat also boils down to dicepool split. With one arm you can be a world champion and the same character with such skills and six limbs can hardly hit a barn from the inside. Best use for these ideas are for LOTS of covering fire.
Now I got the idea for a six limbed FA slivergun tooting Ghoul hunter...
Try to dodge a shitstorm of slivers...
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 24 2009, 09:07 AM
I would think that most changelings with glaring "mutations" like multiple limbs, feathers etc would definitely be outcast in society unless they already have a good social position (rich family, corporate stooge).
Multiple limbs could hardly be effectively hidden but they could be concealed beneath loose clothing like a poncho like jacket or cloak.
Replacing the extra arms with Modular Cyberlimbs (essence unfriendly) can be a viable solution for functioning in society without sticking out too much since they can be easily removed.
Posted by: Caadium Apr 24 2009, 09:14 AM
I don't have access to my book right now, but there is a section titled "Freaks" right before the metagenic qualities. It addresses the social ramifications of things like this.
Posted by: Writer Apr 24 2009, 09:41 AM
LMAO!
"Hey, Bob, where did you get today's lunch?"
"You remember that ghoul hunter that was after us?"
"Yeah? Did he knock off one of our neighbors?"
"No, but he was weilding six monowhips."
"Oh ... OOooohhhh ... Can you pass the mustard?"
Posted by: Muspellsheimr Apr 24 2009, 09:50 AM
We could also assume that the Changeling quality and/or Nartaki race also automatically gives each pair of limbs a dominant hand, effectively copying the first pair.
but they will still have one dominant hand unless the
character has the Ambidexterity quality (p. 77, SR4). A character
with Shiva arms can take the Ambidexterity quality multiple times,
each time applying the quality to one of her off-hands.
Posted by: The Jopp Apr 24 2009, 10:29 AM
There is nothing in the description regarding the Kali arms if they talk about each pair or for each separate arm. Since Kali Arms are bough in pairs I truly think they mean that each pair of arms have one main hand and one off hand. They also refer to off-hands in the cost for ambidexterity.
So, each pair of kali arms have one main hand and one off hand, just as ones natural pair of arms.
It all depends on how one reads the description and how one interprets the text.
A six limbed character without Ambidexterity would have 3 main hands and 3 off hands.
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