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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Updating Shadowbeat

Posted by: Xirces Jan 16 2004, 11:15 AM

Reading through Shadowbeat I was looking at ways to update it - some aspects are fine as is (the rules for music / reporting can be updated to 3rd ed easily), and I expect that a lot of the flavour has been updated in other source books (I definately recall someone making a reference to the Olympics - is this covered somewhere?) Has anything changed with the media (or sport) since 2053? Which books cover these sorts of things?

I'm also having trouble fitting the skills in (the old active / knowledge thing again). Does anyone have thoughts on those - I know singing and musical instruments have been discussed ad nauseum (IIRC the consensus is that those skills are knowledge - but does that change if the character is is a professional rocker?)

Thanks!

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jan 16 2004, 12:01 PM

SOTA2063 has a section call Culture Shock, covers most things like sports and entertainment.

Posted by: Pistons Jan 16 2004, 07:22 PM

The Sprawl Survival Guide also has some Shadowbeat-like material in it you might be interested in.

Posted by: moosegod Jan 16 2004, 07:33 PM

I find that more useful for new players than old salts.

And by old salts I mean people who have played for more than a year.

Posted by: BaronJ Jan 16 2004, 07:33 PM

Echo that Pistons & Frag.

Having never read the Shadowbeat book myself (I know.. bad Baron), I thought the info in the Culture sections of SOTA and SSG were pretty useful, with the 'snoop' novels ("Lucifer Deck" comes to mind), and the portacam info in SR3, you could probably pull together a decent Shadowbeat-style run/game.

I might try that for one of my demos here soon... After the top-secret project, that is

BaronJ

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jan 16 2004, 07:46 PM

When I first started playing and buying books of my own years and years ago, man I am gettign old, I didn't think Shadowbeat was all that cool of a book, and not worth my meager earnings. After hearing about Urban Brawl from the other players I had to know more. I found out from one of the guys in the local store that the games rules were in Shadowbeat, I worked overtime at my crappy after school job just to get that book.

But I'll tell you I think the Sprawl Survival Guide is one of the best books to date.

We used the rules in Shadowbeat to determine underground pit fight standing by messing with the rocker rules. I think my physical adept kick boxer was mid-level, it got to the point some of the people at the Stuffer shack started to recognize him, He was also an ameture kick-boxer. Kind of low level, but a few Lone Star spotted him asked for an autograph and let me go. They didn't knw we had just pulled ajob. The GM jsut wanted to mess with us and get us to mess up so he could bust us, I fooled him a few autographs and we were home in time for corn flakes.

Posted by: Adam Jan 16 2004, 07:50 PM

I wrote a chapter for SOTA: 2063 that was cut, covering the media in more depth in '63. Some of it made it into SSG, but the majority of it hasn't been published. I'm not sure what it's eventual fate will be, as it doesn't really fit into any upcoming books and I don't have the time to re-write/develop 20,000 words for free.

Posted by: Grey Jan 16 2004, 07:58 PM

Why not just take what you have and toss it into TSS?

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jan 16 2004, 07:59 PM

Adam isn't theresupposed to be a new SOTA book every year? If so why not try to get it in that?

Posted by: Adam Jan 16 2004, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Grey)

Why not just take what you have and toss it into TSS?

It doesn't have enough polish, and likely needs some revisions and suchlike to keep it in sync with the timline. Not enough hours in the day!

Posted by: Fortune Jan 17 2004, 01:25 AM

QUOTE (Xirces)

I'm also having trouble fitting the skills in (the old active / knowledge thing again). Does anyone have thoughts on those - I know singing and musical instruments have been discussed ad nauseum (IIRC the consensus is that those skills are knowledge - but does that change if the character is is a professional rocker?)

The way I always look at skills is if they are often useful in a Shadowrun-like situation, then they are Active. If, on the other hand, they are more in the nature of background, or flavor skills, then I classify them as Knowledge.

Posted by: Tanka Jan 17 2004, 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Xirces @ Jan 16 2004, 10:15 PM)

Most of the time a Rocker's Singing skill isn't useful in a run, but it's Active...[/facetious]

Chances are, if it's about something you'd know, it's Knowledge. If it's something you'd do, it's Active.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 17 2004, 02:34 AM

QUOTE (Adam)

QUOTE (Grey @ Jan 16 2004, 02:58 PM)

Why not just take what you have and toss it into TSS?

It doesn't have enough polish, and likely needs some revisions and suchlike to keep it in sync with the timline. Not enough hours in the day!

So... any chance you'd be willing to make it available as is? I mean, we can do the gruntwork involved in making it make sense for our games, and the info would certainly be useful even without a publishable polish.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 17 2004, 03:35 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

Most of the time a Rocker's Singing skill isn't useful in a run, but it's Active...[/facetious]

You can be as facetious as you like, but I know there are rules that put singing in the Knowledge category. I seem to recall that there are rules that also put Singing in the Active category as well, but in my opinion that shouldn't be the case. If you look at the way skills are split up in Shadowrun, you'll find most of the useful-on-a-Shadowrun skills listed under Active, while other non-Shadowrunning skills that could still be considered active (like Chemistry), are listed as Knowledge.

Posted by: Siege Jan 17 2004, 03:56 AM

There's a massive thread regarding Active versus Knowledge skills.

The technical reading allows skills like cooking or singing or poetry to be classified as "Knowledge" skills while previously I would have classified Active: Cooking as "how to fix a meal" while Knowledge: Cooking would be "recipe theory and how to fix French cusine."

Unfortunately, if you read the section of Man & Machine on drugs, you'll see that "Chemistry" as a knowledge skill allows you to produce and manufacture all sorts of nifties. Which implies my standard definition listed above doesn't float.

-Siege

Edit: Doh, basically what Fortune said...sorry.

Posted by: Xirces Jan 17 2004, 10:01 AM

Thanks for the advice on books - SSG is probably next on my list to get (after M&M, which I assume I'll be able to get hold of after the reprinting).

The skills thing bugs me - I'd quite happily let a shaman take singing as a knowledge skill to use for centering (otherwise everyone would just take a language), but for a rocker character it seems like it needs to be active. The only justification I can think of is that an active skill indicates professional level quality, hence the rocker dude can make money from it, whilst the knowledge skill represents being able to sing, without any regard for quality.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 18 2004, 02:20 AM

QUOTE (Xirces @ Jan 17 2004, 09:01 PM)

The only justification I can think of is that an active skill indicates professional level quality, hence the rocker dude can make money from it, whilst the knowledge skill represents being able to sing, without any regard for quality.

Anyone can sing, if they disregard the need for quality. There is no Knowledge involved in vocalizing out-of-tune.

Posted by: Siege Jan 18 2004, 02:27 AM

QUOTE (Xirces)

That frustration permeates a lot of games -- consequently, most people have house-ruled it to follow more or less the way you suggest.

Although I have to admit I'm starting to like the more pro-active aspects of the "knowledge" skills.

-Siege

Posted by: Fortune Jan 18 2004, 04:32 AM

QUOTE (Xirces)

To take this further, Biology must be an Active skill, otherwise biologists couldn't make money from it. Forensics must also fall in the Active category, as forensic sciebtists certainly do active investigations. I've already mentioned Chemistry. Psychologists actually make money performing phychology, so that should come under Active skills. I could go on all day about almost every one of the skills listed as Knowledge skills, but I think you get my point.

Posted by: BewilderedGM Jan 18 2004, 08:18 AM

QUOTE (Xirces)

Thanks for the advice on books - SSG is probably next on my list to get (after M&M, which I assume I'll be able to get hold of after the reprinting).

Lucky for me is got SSG and its quite good (poss best) sourcebook for me so far. The ones I lack is M&M, Cannon Companion, SR Comp and New Seattle

Those would be kinda handy to put my grubby paws on.
Sucks to live where SR dont have a huge market share. The selcetion of books is ridiculous unless I count the novels hehe

Oh well, sorry for the threadsteal.

Shadowbeat is also an excellent book, tho I havent integrated my players into that realm of Seattle, but I reckon those bloodthirsty thugs would be gagging for pit fights and stuff where they could show off their combat prowess /sigh

Posted by: Xirces Jan 18 2004, 12:06 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

QUOTE (Xirces @ Jan 17 2004, 09:01 PM)

But there is one huge difference in that there are rules for using "singing" in the SR game to a character's advantage - ie, making money or persuading a crowd of people - which makes it an active skill. Biology (or forensics) do not have associated rules. Knowledge skills (generally) should not be used in that way (except as complimentary skills) - chemistry is the exception (and a bloody annoying one at that).

My point is (kind of) made by Small Unit Tactics - it was a knowledge skill until rules were created that made it "useful", at which point it became active...

My point does suck and I agree with you, but I think there is a basis for justification of the way it works at the moment..

Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2004, 12:49 AM

QUOTE (Xirces)

There are rules in SR2 for Rockers making money with Singing. There are rules placing Singing in both the Knowledge and the Active categories. I disagree with your point that other Knowledge skills (besides Chemistry) are not used in that manner. Exactly what skill does a Historian use when plying his trade? What skill is a Navigator using when he's going about his work?

QUOTE

My point is (kind of) made by Small Unit Tactics - it was a knowledge skill until rules were created that made it "useful", at which point it became active...

Small Unit Tactics is a good example. As soon as the skill became useful in a Shadowrunning situation, it was moved to the Active category.

Posted by: Siege Jan 19 2004, 01:01 AM

Chemistry was an amazing frag up.

Active: useful on a run
Knowledge: not as useful on a run

It seems to be a silly way of dividing the classifications. Unfortunately, that seems to be the logic behind the current division.

However, since Biology and Singing are both classified as "Knowledge" skills, no matter how active they may be, I'm gonna stick with that because every time I try to re-classiy the skills, I start to get a headache.

-Siege

Posted by: moosegod Jan 19 2004, 01:03 AM

And hijack the thread, start and acrimonious argument, and irritate everyone else.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 19 2004, 01:34 AM

As far as I'm concerned, Knowledge skills (the category) were implimented to help players expand and build upon their characters. They are there more for the flavor than they are to reflect reality. The Karma costs are lower for these skills, as they are not usually as crucial to the normal game as most Active skills.

Posted by: Xirces Jan 19 2004, 12:24 PM

I don't consider a discussion about knowledge/active skills to be a thread hijack sine it's one of the issues I raised initially.

Siege - you're right with the classification, but I was trying to avoid using those terms.

Fortune - My point was that there are (pages and pages of) rules to determine exactly how the singing skill is used in the SR environment. Likewise there are similar rules for Enchanting, Surgery, Vehicle customisation etc, which although useful skills for runners, could be used for a seperate career. However there are no rules detailing how a Historian, Accountant or (for that matter) a McDonalds burger flipper does their job on a day to day basis - therefore History, Accountancy and Burger Flipping become knowledge skills.

I'd make Chemistry an active skill and the problem is solved until the next rule change...

Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 19 2004, 08:24 PM

Didn't musical skills and such-like use to be classified as Active (Special) skills? There's still a loose comment in MitS which implies that such skills individually can be considered one area possible for adept centring.

Posted by: Xirces Jan 19 2004, 09:12 PM

Yes - they were classified as Special Active Skills, which is the way I'd still treat them. However, should a magician want to use a skill for centering I'd almost certainly let him have the skill as a knowledge skill since most of the existing centering skills are (meditation, carving, art, chanting, mathematics). If he also wanted to make money selling wax THAT requires an active skill.

Look at an SR3 archetype and decide what the knowledge skills say about the character - the Adept has professional bodyguarding - this obviously means that he can act as a bodyguard, right? Not really, it covers the aspects that aren't already included in stealth, perception, etiquette, combat etc...

Can the Drone Rigger sing professionally? Hell no - he listens to Opera and might well sing along, but put him on stage and he'll be laughed off.

Can the Covert Ops Specialist get a job in the Accounts Payable dept working for H Dog? Yes, of course she can.

If the intention of a chosen skill is to work in an existing game mechanic as a primary (ie, not complimentary) skill then it's active. If not it's knowledge. It's the only way that the skills can be properly defined.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 19 2004, 09:45 PM

I like that

Posted by: Adam Jan 19 2004, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (Jason Farlander)

I'd rather not; certainly not before I find out if I can sneak it into SOTA: 2064 or another upcoming book.

Posted by: Siege Jan 19 2004, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

MitS was written with 2nd edition in mind -- if memory serves.

They hadn't experimentd with the idea of knowledge skills at that point, so everything was by default active.

Special Active referred to skills that were outside the standard collection. Cooking would/could be considered "Special Active" under that classification.

-Siege

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2004, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)

They were indeed considered Special skills in previous editions, where the Knowledge skill category didn't exist. Even then, I seem to recall that they had a
different (and cheaper) Karma cost than normal Active skills, being equivalent to Languages in price.

If you (Xirces) are still treating them in that fashion, then there's not much difference between them and Knowledge skills.

QUOTE (Xirces)

My point was that there are (pages and pages of) rules to determine exactly how the singing skill is used in the SR environment. Likewise there are similar rules for Enchanting, Surgery, Vehicle customisation etc, which although useful skills for runners, could be used for a seperate career. However there are no rules detailing how a Historian, Accountant or (for that matter) a McDonalds burger flipper does their job on a day to day basis - therefore History, Accountancy and Burger Flipping become knowledge skills.

As do all other non-useful-on-a-shadowrun skills, which is my entire point as to how they are split up in canon.

Posted by: Xirces Jan 20 2004, 10:11 AM

MiTS is most definately an SR3 book, however Shadowbeat is a first edition book.

To me the special skills were simply active skills that were for specialist use - music/reporting etc are no different from pistol in any game sense.

Fortune - I've never seen a reduced karma cost for special skills in any edition and would charge full (active) karma cost for increasing one of those skills, which is why the distinction matters to me - if I did want the reduced karma cost I'd just make them knowledge skills.

However, we're agreeing on the point about the way that skills are classified and any disagreement is probably due to my poor explaination - "non-useful on a shadowrun" is a good, if a little unconcise, way of phrasing it. However, to clarify my previous point - Shadowrunning, due to the extenstion of the rules, includes music production and Trid reporting. It also includes Enchanting - a runner could theoretically set up an Enchanting shop and make money within the canon rules, however the rules do not cover Cooking or Accountancy...

As noted by almost everyone Chemistry is the one big exception. Assuming the rules in M&M cover the production of useful chemicals that needs to be an active skill rather than knowledge.

Phew.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2004, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (Xirces)

However, to clarify my previous point - Shadowrunning, due to the extenstion of the rules, includes music production and Trid reporting.

And yet Journalism is a Knowledge skill in SR3. As is Spell Design, which definitely falls into your defined category. My point was that skills like these, and Psychology, Chemistry, and Navigation (amongst others) are included to round out the character more than was possible in previous editions. They can be useful at times, but are not usually considered the core skills for shadowrunning.

Being in a band is not my idea of a 'shadowrun', even though there are rules included in the game covering this enterprise. Your argument is that because Rockers have rules, that they are the only profession that has Active skills associated with them. My point is that all kinds of other professions also could include active skills. The reason there are rules for Rockers is that the Rocker was an archetype in the first editions of the game, but this archetype has since been removed.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jan 20 2004, 11:54 PM

Fortunately I came up with a houserule that settled the entire knowledge vs. active debate quite easily.

In our games there are only two skills, athletics and thinking. All knowledge skills fall under thinking while all active skills fall under athletics.

For instance instead of Martial arts we have athletics (Punching People). And instead of cars we have athletics (Turning the Steering Wheel).

Similarly we have Thinking (About Chemicals) and Thinking (About Plants) to replace such moldy skills as Chemistry and Botany. Also Language skills were bundled in under Thinking (About Languages).

It's so much more logical than the idiotic way SR3 does things.