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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ More successes with low skills
Posted by: Xirces Jan 19 2004, 04:34 PM
Does anyone have a good, simple, unbalancing house-rule on increasing the number of successes for low skill characters?
The situation I'm looking at is where Joe has a skill of 2 or 3, but wants/needs (for whatever reason) 4 successes. Currently, even with a TN of 2 a skill of 2 is never going to achieve 3 successes and that doesn't seem entirely right to me.
I saw a method once where for each die that came up double the base TN was treated as an additional success - in this example a 4 would count as 2 successes, an 8 as 3, a 16 as 4 etc...
(As an aside, this would also have the advantage of meaning that someone with very low skill has at least a small chance of staging up damage in combat)
Something like that would be good - but it would quickly get unmanageable with greater numbers of dice and there are certain situations where I probably wouldn;t want it to apply (although I can't think of any it seems likely there would be).
Any thoughts?
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2004, 04:50 PM
I give an additional success for every 6 by which a roll exceeds the TN. With a TN of 2, 8 would count as 2 successes, 14 as 3, 20 as 4, etc. This applies to all tests in my games (at least I can't think of any tests that it wouldn't apply to).
I don't like multipliers, so I always use addition/subtraction where possible. I've concluded that they are easier to do when very tired or slightly intoxicated or both.
Posted by: Diesel Jan 19 2004, 05:01 PM
I do it for every 10 the die exceeds it by, making it extremely unlikely but still possible, as every now and again people will make those madass twelve+ rolls. But not usually. 
Posted by: Sphynx Jan 19 2004, 05:30 PM
Simplest rule is to let a success be a success.
Seriously, aside from certain combat and magic situations (both where you have some pool that can apply) and cybersurgery rules, the skill system isn't intended on needing multiple successes. Multiple successes just make your completion of the task that much faster/better. 1-success is enough is the best rule (and it's Canon. 
)
Sphynx
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jan 19 2004, 05:36 PM
Actually with the exception of combat. The next most frequent and needed place for multiple success is perception. (sometimes i feel it's more important then combat)
[EDIT]
ettiquette tests in the legwork of published adventures[/EDIT]
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2004, 05:48 PM
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| The next most frequent and needed place for multiple success is perception. |
This rule has in fact come up most often in spellcasting -- resisting spells and resisting Drain. For example, it allows average Intelligence people to spot guys with low-Force Invisibility with lots of successes in some situations. It forces the players to be a bit more careful with their Invisible characters when there's still the possibility that someone might spot them.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2004, 06:07 PM
I typically give an extra success for every 12 the rolled total is higher than the TN. I have a friend who is toying with the idea of giving an automatic karma point to anyone who rolls over a 24.
~J
Posted by: Tanka Jan 19 2004, 06:11 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I typically give an extra success for every 12 the rolled total is higher than the TN. I have a friend who is toying with the idea of giving an automatic karma point to anyone who rolls over a 24. ~J |
Too bad he isn't my GM. My group is known to have the Blessed Dice Edge for each player at least once a game.
Blessed Dice (6): Every so often, one die comes up with a roll of at least 25. This usually only happens once per game, but is known to happen twice or thrice.
I don't think we know what our Flaws are to counter those six points.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 19 2004, 06:16 PM
Every 1296th die will come up as 25 or more, so to get lots of Karma in such a game, just do a lot of menial tasks with a high skill. You'll get at least a few bonus karma per game in the long run.
Posted by: spotlite Jan 19 2004, 06:17 PM
I've seen plenty of examples in printed adventures (contacts, especially) where one success just won't cut it and may lead to failure or innacurate results.
Posted by: Xirces Jan 19 2004, 06:30 PM
The main areas I'd want to use it are combat, perception, B/R, Etiquette and healing. If someone has a skill of 1 and is attempting a BR task with a time of 1 hour, then they either succeed and take an hour or fail completely. Is that right? At least with a rule like this there's a possibility they could do it quicker...
Posted by: moosegod Jan 19 2004, 06:31 PM
By the rules, yes he either succeeds or takes an hour.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 19 2004, 06:56 PM
The karma for +24 thing was dependent on player cooperation, as we did in fact think of making tests for everything under the sun. Furthermore, for anything someone is rolling four or less dice on, they have at least an equal chance of Rule-of-1ing it.
~J
Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 19 2004, 07:03 PM
Granted, we've added a Social Pool option, but shouldn't the existing pools be adequate for potential staging for most other tests? And if more successes are needed than can be rolled with the skill + appropriate pool, well, there's always room for personal improvement.
| QUOTE |
| I typically give an extra success for every 12 the rolled total is higher than the TN. I have a friend who is toying with the idea of giving an automatic karma point to anyone who rolls over a 24. - Kagetenshi |
Although I do like this one, and may petition for us to adopt it
Us, we've generally gone more the Ghostbuster RPG (ghost die) route: exceptional successes, quirky successes.
Posted by: Diesel Jan 19 2004, 08:00 PM
Social pool...?, and damn Kag, my group wants that now.
Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 19 2004, 08:07 PM
IN + CH / 2 , for use with any CH-based skill.
Posted by: Backgammon Jan 19 2004, 10:23 PM
We use double successes (not always, depends how generous I feel), but any 1s negate these extra successes. Works pretty well.
Of course, if you want a "good, simple, unbalancing house-rule", I suggest you triple the result of the roll and use that as the number of successes generated .
Posted by: Rev Jan 19 2004, 10:30 PM
| QUOTE (moosegod) |
| By the rules, yes he either succeeds or takes an hour. |
With many b/r tests the player can try again, taking another hour at the same or an increased target number right?
If I am remembering that correctly it is possible to succede after a period of time longer than the base (with multiple attempts) so even a 1 skill person can have more than two outcomes.
Posted by: Siege Jan 19 2004, 11:32 PM
If your character needs more successes, (s)he probably shouldn't be attempting the feat.
Or hedge your bets with gadgets, gizmos and gear to better enhance your chances.
Alternatively, you can adapt the "take 20" rule from (ack spit) d20.
-Siege
Posted by: mfb Jan 19 2004, 11:36 PM
i typically allow characters to spend karma to permanently raise their skills. i'm known as a pretty generous gm, though.
Posted by: Siege Jan 19 2004, 11:38 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i typically allow characters to spend karma to permanently raise their skills. i'm known as a pretty generous gm, though. |
Ya know, I'm looking really hard for those <sarcasm> tags...
-Siege
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 19 2004, 11:56 PM
When it is important, a character can of course use Karma Pool to give additional dice to a roll, or can "burn" Karma Pool permanently for additional successes.
Posted by: GoldenAri Jan 20 2004, 12:06 AM
If you've got 3 dice and need 4 successes use your karma pool. That's what it's there for. Now I don't mean burn points for automatic successes, just buy extra dice. I've never understood why so many players are averse to this. You can buy extra dice at a one to one ratio and it comes back at the end of the scene.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jan 20 2004, 12:07 AM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri) |
| it comes back at the end of the scene. |
Only if your Gm lets it. Frequently you get it back at the end of the run.
Posted by: GoldenAri Jan 20 2004, 12:09 AM
I do have a question about the social pool. When would you ever have to split your dice? Why not just give everyone bonus dice to a CHA linked skills equal to the pool?
Posted by: GoldenAri Jan 20 2004, 12:10 AM
| QUOTE |
| Only if your Gm lets it. Frequently you get it back at the end of the run. |
Irregardless, it still comes back. It's not gone, just used.
Posted by: Siege Jan 20 2004, 12:11 AM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri) |
| I do have a question about the social pool. When would you ever have to split your dice? Why not just give everyone bonus dice to a CHA linked skills equal to the pool? |
That's a good question -- except for contested negotiations.
+dice to Negotiation
+dice to Willpower to resist counter-negotiations
Any other thoughts?
-Siege
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 20 2004, 01:17 AM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Jan 19 2004, 04:06 PM) |
| You can {use Karma Pool to} buy extra dice {for a test} at a one to one ratio and it comes back at the end of the scene. |
It's not one-for-one. First die costs one, the second die costs two more. So buying two dice costs three total. Limits on buying extra dice are listed with the rule on SR3 p. 246.
The end of the 'scene' in 3rd edition is an extended period of time the GM determines, which may often be the end of the adventure. The longest scene I ever ran was about 3 weeks of character time.
Posted by: GoldenAri Jan 20 2004, 01:28 AM
Well, isn't that just crap-tastic. I've always let my players buy them at a one to one thinking that that was how it worked, and they still never do.
Posted by: Rev Jan 20 2004, 01:28 AM
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||
That's a good question -- except for contested negotiations. +dice to Negotiation +dice to Willpower to resist counter-negotiations Any other thoughts? -Siege |
I don't think it will work very well if it is a pool that refreshes every 3 seconds like combat, hacking, spell, astral... and task (which doesn't work well already, but at least it is small).
If you had it refresh on a per "interaction" basis or something it would probably work better.
example: While negotiating with mr Johnson you make the following tests:
Interrogation to get him to tell you more.
Negotiation to get more money.
Ettiquette to impress him.
and the pool has to be split between them, even though they happen over half an hour or whatever.
Anyway thats what I think would be needed to make such a thing work. If you even want to have everyone make all these rolls.
Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2004, 11:07 AM
just have it refresh at the same rate as kp.
Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 20 2004, 04:07 PM
We've refreshed it using a rough "scene" concept: one full set of transactions with the persons directly involved - which is more or less what Rev already said. (GM's call, obviously, but we've never had issues over different understandings of what constituted a "full transaction".) Module situations make it even more straightforward: social pool would refresh at the end of each module chapter.
Consider, however, what the average CH is selected to be in so very many (not all!) cases: and extrapolate what the social pool would be. I think I'm one of the few who regularly plays PCs who do make it large enough even to consider splitting.
Edit: I've seen quite a few posts on Dumpshock as to how useless this pool is, roughly 3:1 against v. in favour, so that may have shaped part of my perception of the "average".
Posted by: Siege Jan 20 2004, 10:25 PM
How often do you throw large amounts of dice in Social interactions?
Negotiations: throw dice versus target's Willpower, the opponent does the same.
Where would the social pool fit in? Add dice to initial skill dice and perhaps save some for Willpower.
I'd like to see something like a Social pool, but so far I can't figure out how to make it fly and be reasonably balanced.
-Siege
Posted by: Tiralee Jan 21 2004, 01:30 AM
| QUOTE |
| How often do you throw large amounts of dice in Social interactions? Negotiations: throw dice versus target's Willpower, the opponent does the same. |
Lots! But I play Charasmatic characters!
Wait, got to check something now - Page 84, core rules.
| QUOTE |
| Negotiation - Target's Intelligence as the TN. |
Heh - I always used their skill (Neg) or Charisma.
Ohhh, but are my Players are gonna KICK my ass...
Well, that will teach me for not re-reading those damn skills.
L:
Posted by: Talia Invierno Jan 21 2004, 03:00 PM
Using a Shadowbeat (hostile interview) template allows the target to resist using IN (wits), CH (charm, force of personality), or WL (just sheer stubbornness/obstinancy).
No reason there should only be one way to resist being manipulated!
Posted by: spotlite Jan 21 2004, 06:01 PM
A social pool! I wrote some rules for something similar once. The details aren't that important but I was building an 'entertainer' adept, someone with some unique adept powers. There was a sonic damage one which cos about double what killing hands does, for example, and a metamagic technique similar to cleansing but worked on active emotions - it could be used to calm or incite a crowd, or defuse a tense situation with the sound of the adepts voice doing something appropriate like singing or negotiating, and in effect all it did was lower social test target numbers. I wanted to introduce it for my players but never really got around to it, but it introduced a new social pool to make some of the powers work, but I couldn't justify not making it available to normal characters - there are plenty of people who are especially good at the sort of things it applies to who are completely mundane. It was as yours is, 1/2 CHR and INT.
As for how often it refreshed, it refreshed every combat turn. But if you weren't in combat, we have a standing rule generally anyway that 'combat turn' no longer means 3 seconds. If you aren't rolling inititiative, we work out what your average initiative is (using 3 as the average dice roll), and give you that many actions or tests before your pools refresh. So if you are decking, and not rolling initiative, your pool will only refresh every three to five actions - however long those actions take to accomplish, unless you trigger a combat encounter or time becomes a pressing issue and initiative needs to be rolled. The social pool would've worked the same way - if you had 2 actions by the above system, then you could make a Negotiation (bribery) check to get past the guard on the gate, but unless you rolled for initiative between then and needing to fast talk your way past the secretary, to the exec's office, the pool wouldn't have refreshed. Equally if you're just ringing round contacts for information. Your pool will need to be split amongst them.
Its a house rule, and subject to interpretation, but I think it would work (it certainly does for the other, canon dice pools), and I say go for it.
Posted by: Bölverk Jan 21 2004, 10:01 PM
| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| A social pool! I wrote some rules for something similar once. The details aren't that important but I was building an 'entertainer' adept, someone with some unique adept powers. There was a sonic damage one which cos about double what killing hands does, for example, and a metamagic technique similar to cleansing but worked on active emotions - it could be used to calm or incite a crowd, or defuse a tense situation with the sound of the adepts voice doing something appropriate like singing or negotiating, and in effect all it did was lower social test target numbers. |
So basically, a bard?
*ducks*| QUOTE (spotlite) |
| If you aren't rolling inititiative, we work out what your average initiative is (using 3 as the average dice roll), and give you that many actions or tests before your pools refresh. So if you are decking, and not rolling initiative, your pool will only refresh every three to five actions |
Wait, so characters with faster reactions and initiative would have their pools refresh less often outside of combat than a slower character's would?
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