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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Why so few people in the NANs?
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 20 2004, 09:13 PM
Most NAN nations do not have enough people to have large cities.I mean the PPC has less people than modren day LA, by several million.
As a whole the NAN has about as many people as Mexico city, Califonia.
So how does the PCC pose a threat too Aztlan,when Aztlan has more people in the area they took back from the US.After all is neither that far behind them in any area,and ahead in others.
This is also baring in mind that Aztlan hasn't been over ran by CAS(Outside of Denver),witch hates Aztlan for good reasons.The CAS out numbering the whole of NAN, at something like 2.5 too 1.
Hell, some crazy japanese guy rules over a population base in CFS that is millions larger than any NAN.
Posted by: Cray74 Jan 20 2004, 09:33 PM
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| Most NAN nations do not have enough people to have large cities.I mean the PPC has less people than modren day LA, by several million. |
Short answer: cuz there ain't many Injuns to begin with.
Long answer: Back in the days of the Pilgrims and the Spanish Conquistadors, Europeans found a new land far to the West of Europe known as The New World, later named the Americas. In this land, they found a bunch of natives. You know, Native Americans. The Europeans brought many wonderous items with them in their journeys of exploration, not the least of which was some of the most effective biological warfare plagues ever seen by humanity. A couple of centuries later, there weren't a whole lot of Native Americans left; something like 10% of those who were around when Columbus arrived in 1492. By 2000AD, there might be about 2 million Native Americans in North America. By 2020AD, the Native Americans had turned the tables on the Europeans and formed the Native American Nations. One of the founding concepts of NAN was to boot the Anglos back to Europe and have a purely Native American NAN. This didn't work so well in practice, because there STILL weren't a lot of Native Americans, so the NAN opened their borders to anyone vaguely suspected of having Native American blood, or at least anyone who rooted for the Native Americans in Western films. Even this wasn't really enough to get the population up very high because, let's face it, the Europeans were REALLY thorough about depopulating the Natives.
| QUOTE |
| So how does the PCC pose a threat too Aztlan,when Aztlan has more people in the area they took back from the US.After all is neither that far behind them in any area,and ahead in others. |
You don't have to be advanced to win a war. See: Vietnam, aka, David vs. Nuclear Goliath. Also, it doesn't take more than one or two PCC nukes to wreck Aztlan aggressions, and the PCC can do all sorts of other bad things to Aztlan - wreck Aztech's stocks, maybe enlist the Great Ghost Dance from other NANs, etc.
Also - and you'll want to remember this one - sometimes the little nation (like the PCC) will loose to the bigger one, but not every other nation will approve of it. See: Kuwait, Iraq, Desert Storm. Invading the PCC might earn Aztlan a war with the Confederate States, UCAS, and rest of the NAN, all of whom would have an axe to grind with Aztlan.
| QUOTE |
| The CAS out numbering the whole of NAN, at something like 2.5 too 1. |
Yeah, well, the whole Great Ghost Dance nonsense was blessed by artistic license. NAN is an integral part to the "feel" of Shadowrun, so it stays, nevermind logic. Battletech has that problem with the Clans, too.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 20 2004, 09:38 PM
Couple of possibilities I can think of:
First there is probably Fear of Ghost Dance Mk II. After all, if they did it once, they could probably do it again and magic that can touch off volcanoes is nothing to sneer at, especially considering both CAS and Aztlan have some major tectonic activity under their major cities.
Second, the NAN works as sort of a Neutral Zone between the major North American nations, and no one wants to violate that. It provides a buffer zone from potential hostilities.
Third, fear of other retaliation from other nations. If one nation starts to invade, the others are going to see it as an obvious grab for power and take issue. And most of the nations in question, including the many of the NAN, have nukes, even if they do act a little wonky.
Fourth, why bother? I do not have a map right in front of me, but if I remember correctly most of the NAN is not particularly valuable real estate to begin with. Sure there are some spots with a few natural resources, but they are not worth the risk of disrupting the balance of power to gain them by military force when economic control works so much better.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 20 2004, 09:50 PM
What are you talking about?
Los Angeles has a population of ~3.7 million people. http://losangeles.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm The PCC has a population of ~12.2 million (SoNA, pg 86).
Saito does *not* control anything close to the entirety of the California Free State... judging from the map in SoNA, he controls about 1/4 of the country. Granted, his little Protectorate does house a few major cities, but considering the number of people who fled the area during and shortly after the takeover, Its really not as ludicrous as you are trying to make it seem.
You seem to think that the number of people that live in a country is in some way directly related to the military might of that country. I hate to break it to you, but India's military is not as strong as the United States military, despite having a population four times as large.
Finally, Aztlan can not declare war on any single nation in North America without functionally declaring war on every nation in North America. The CAS and the UCAS would *not* stand by and let Aztlan acquire more territory, as both nations already see them as a threat. Theres also that whole treaty thing. Since Aztlan seems to have quite a bit of trouble dealing with their own bands of guerilla fighters (the Yucatan War), I don't think they are prepared to take on all of North America.
Posted by: JongWK Jan 20 2004, 10:12 PM
Subvert them from within: take a look at the Algonkian-Manitou Situation.
Posted by: John Campbell Jan 20 2004, 10:36 PM
You're asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Why hasn't anyone conquered NAN?", it's, "Why didn't the US just crush their pathetic little uprising to begin with?"
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 20 2004, 10:53 PM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| What are you talking about? Los Angeles has a population of ~3.7 million people. http://losangeles.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm The PCC has a population of ~12.2 million (SoNA, pg 86). Saito does *not* control anything close to the entirety of the California Free State... judging from the map in SoNA, he controls about 1/4 of the country. Granted, his little Protectorate does house a few major cities, but considering the number of people who fled the area during and shortly after the takeover, Its really not as ludicrous as you are trying to make it seem. You seem to think that the number of people that live in a country is in some way directly related to the military might of that country. I hate to break it to you, but India's military is not as strong as the United States military, despite having a population four times as large. Finally, Aztlan can not declare war on any single nation in North America without functionally declaring war on every nation in North America. The CAS and the UCAS would *not* stand by and let Aztlan acquire more territory, as both nations already see them as a threat. Theres also that whole treaty thing. Since Aztlan seems to have quite a bit of trouble dealing with their own bands of guerilla fighters (the Yucatan War), I don't think they are prepared to take on all of North America. |
I when I said LA city,I meant LA county.My mistake,as wile LA city is only ~3.7 million people,LA county is way more.Now,as for my mistake the cities in LA county are so tightly bunched together that it may as well be one city.
LA county is ~9,6 million
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06037.html
Saito controls one of the five largest cities/counties in the "US". And San fran ain't small either.
India also is poor, CAS,Aztlan,UCAS,Quebec aren't.One thing you should remember is militaries are largely based on how much a nation can pay.You know why India has so many movies made?It is because not everyone in India has power.People in India don't have enough money for TV's and even if they had them, large part of the country wouldn't have power for them.So people make movies, movies come out everyday, in the same way people have TV shows.India lack the infrsturcture to take care of civil engineering problems, what the hell kind of army do you think they could feild?
SO an wealthily nation like CAS, even if each person makes less money than the PPC, has the resource to feild an army larger than the NAN.Fallowing human history nations feild armies as large they can,based on the threats of war.CAS has three hostile borders.I think they would have as large as an armed force per-person as the US has now.Witch would be ~3,000,000.This number may be a bit low as CAS has real hostile nations near by.I wouldn't be shocked if the number was ~1,000,000.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 20 2004, 11:00 PM
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| You're asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Why hasn't anyone conquered NAN?", it's, "Why didn't the US just crush their pathetic little uprising to begin with?" |
Four words: The Great Ghost Dance.
Its kinda hard to crush a rebellion when tornadoes spring into existance to wipe out your air strike, spirits and armor-spell-enhanced native americans impervious to small arms fire engage your infantry, when those same spirits use their accident power on your tanks, and when, most importantly, you dont have a fragging clue whats going on because you don't believe in magic.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 20 2004, 11:58 PM
Hmm... I've been trying to find solid figures about the current size of the US military, but I'm having trouble doing so. Anyone out there know where such information can be found?
Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 12:07 AM
Curious: The Great Ghost Dance happened because the NAN had magic and the US didn't. What is stopping the UCAS or CAS from invading if the strategic magic balance is now blanced?
The NAN may have the GGD but now UCAS and CAS and Aztlan have mages/shamans of their own and those are no pushovers either.
Posted by: Bölverk Jan 21 2004, 12:20 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Curious: The Great Ghost Dance happened because the NAN had magic and the US didn't. What is stopping the UCAS or CAS from invading if the strategic magic balance is now blanced? |
The fact that they're basically peaceful nations? It's been 45 years since the treaty was signed, after all. Why go re-opening old wounds?
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 12:22 AM
Toruri, brings up a good point.But her forgets that UCAS has only about 4.8 magically active people per magically active NANer.
Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 12:24 AM
Wouldn't that mean that the UCAS has more Awakened than NAN?
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 12:24 AM
| QUOTE (Bölverk) | ||
The fact that they're basically peaceful nations? It's been 45 years since the treaty was signed, after all. Why go re-opening old wounds? |
Why did we take that land from the natives in the first place?Greed, baby.Pure,lovely greed....
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 12:28 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Wouldn't that mean that the UCAS has more Awakened than NAN? |
Yes, but that was the point.The NAN have nothing on either the CAS or the UCAS anymore.They lack,the man power, and their mojo is not so big of a deadl anymore.
Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 12:34 AM
So if the UCAS has more Awakened and troops... what is stopping them from invading?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 21 2004, 12:42 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| So if the UCAS has more Awakened and troops... what is stopping them from invading? |
Foolish American belief in not slaughtering people who haven't messed with you in a generation. A few CAS politicians campaigned on retaking some of the lost land, but that was mostly in reference to Aztlan.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 12:46 AM
the strategic balance isn't balanced at all. the GGD was blood magic on a mass scale--besides Aztlan, no other nation has shown a willingness to engage in blood magic at that level, and Aztlan is too busy fighting Amazonia to take on a second front. most nations only use magic tactically; mage for mage, either of the American nations could take the NAN, but the NAN has a level of organization and ritual that's light-years ahead of anything the CAS or UCAS could put together.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 21 2004, 12:51 AM
Why doesnt the United States invade Canada or Mexico or Cuba now? We could certainly win any of those wars...
Oh yeah... just because you can beat someone rather soundly in a war is not sufficient justification to actually do it. The UCAS, the CAS, and the NAN are all currently allies, and rely rather heavily on each other for trade and such. Plus, both the UCAS and the CAS have enough problems of their own to not want to risk a more or less pointless war.
There are, however, those in the UCAS who would like to see a reclamation of all of the territory in the former United States (see Threats 2 for more info). Fortunately, they aren't currently in charge of the country.
Posted by: Cray74 Jan 21 2004, 12:55 AM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| Its kinda hard to crush a rebellion when tornadoes spring into existance to wipe out your air strike, |
That'll last. See my last comments. It shouldn't have taken the USA that long to wise up to magic.
First, the degree of cohesivity in the SAIM rebels was ludicrous. It wouldn't have taken much to lure some shamans over to the government side. It also wouldn't have taken much to capture some shamans - it doesn't take people well informed of magic to capture shamans, not when they're very rare like in the early years of the 6th World, and not when their body guards are lightly armed irregulars. All you need is a one-page set of guidelines for the Native Americans to basically loose their magical edge, and you only need one captured shaman to deliver that info. A few tips like "Spells are mostly line of sight" would make a huge difference.
Second, the Native Americans weren't the only ones to develop magic early; they just demonstrated a knack for it and "guidance from the spirits." An edge, not inconquerable.
Third, you don't need air strikes to crush a rebellion in the middle of a hostile population that outnumbers the rebels at least 150:1.
| QUOTE |
| spirits and armor-spell-enhanced native americans impervious to small arms fire engage your infantry, when those same spirits use their accident power on your tanks, |
Heh. Not all the SAIM bands had spell-tossers. Particularly right at the beginning of the 6th World, they were rarer than honest politicians.
So the bands that had them: good for them. The others should've been screwed 6 ways from Sunday.
What were the Natives going to do in the long run when they had the gov't troops on the run? If the Anglos refused to leave cities, Native Americans had very few options. They could cut off water supplies to squeeze the Anglos - nice, kill a few million people of thirst (with associated loss of the moral high ground and backing - what a PR disaster strangling a city would be). They could cut off food supplies - nice, kill a few million people of hunger. They could try to storm a city - stupid, urban assaults by small groups of irregular troops.
| QUOTE |
| and when, most importantly, you dont have a fragging clue whats going on because you don't believe in magic. |
Yeah, see, that's one of those implausibilities. That ignorance shouldn't have lasted more than a year or two.
*The stupidity of that whole "final solution" thing by the US goverment was only artistic license.
*The stupidity of the government troops trying to fight the Native Americans could only be artistic license.
*The inability of the government to grapple with magic could only be artistic license.
*The ability of the Native Americans to achieve so much with so little is only artistic license. They simply lacked the manpower to occupy and hold the land they did.
The Native Americans should never have been given a reason to rebel like the re-education camps; if they were, they should've lost.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 01:04 AM
ritual magic, cray. "haven't seen joe jumping rabbit in a few days. let's check on him. oh, he's talking to the feds? manabolt!"
i may be misremembering, but the SAIM uprising was coordinated, at least in part, by some half-horror/half-IE guy named, as i recall, Thais (actually... unless i'm mistaken, he's a good candidate for Daniel Howling Coyote). this dude has been around for a while--he tried the same thing back in the 1800s--and, unlike the IEs we see running the TT (can't speak for the TNO guys), he seems to have a handle on the whole concept of long-term strategies. this would go far in explaining SAIM's embarassingly successful campaign.
i'd just like to point out that the aircav unit mentioned as being destroyed by tornadoes is--mine! go cav!
Posted by: Crimson Jack Jan 21 2004, 01:20 AM
If I was taking a samurai into battle, I wouldn't take the Tom Cruise kind. I would take the Ken Watanabe samurai. What do I mean? I wouldn't *think* about invading the NAN, even if I did have shamans at my beck and call. It's a scary thought... going up against a nation of people that have some of the best shamans on the planet residing within its borders. Regardless of how good I thought me and my crackshot team of stolen shammies might be, there's no competing for the die-hards that are fighting for earth, not nuyen.
The sourcebooks have detailed it out enough so there's enough of a plausible reason why this wouldn't happen too. There's no need to invade grasslands and second-tier cities. Not worth the risk.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 01:33 AM
well, i'll say this: "grasslands" equals "breadbasket". controlling its own food supply is a good thing, for a nation.
Posted by: Spookymonster Jan 21 2004, 01:55 AM
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) |
| If I was taking a samurai into battle, I wouldn't take the Tom Cruise kind. I would take the Ken Watanabe samurai. |
Waitaminute.... you'd take http://imdb.com/name/nm0913797/ over Tom Cruise???
...oops... that was Gedde Watanabe... nevermind...
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 02:22 AM
| QUOTE (Crimson Jack) |
| ...second-tier cities. Not worth the risk. |
Like LA, Las Vagas,Denver,San fransico,San Jose.Portland,Santa fe,Salt Lake City... Then add minor cities
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 02:28 AM
| QUOTE (Playing Games) | ||
Like LA, Las Vagas,Denver,San fransico,San Jose.Portland,Santa fe,Salt Lake City... Then add minor cities |
L.A. only recently fell into Native hands.
Denver is divided into sections, and is not wholely in Native hands.
San Francisco has never belonged to the Natives in Shadowrun.
Salt Lake City has a special arrangement whereby most, if not all of it belongs to the Mormons.
Portland is in Tir Tairngire, which IIRC succceeded from the NAN a while ago.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 21 2004, 02:40 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| So if the UCAS has more Awakened and troops... what is stopping them from invading? |
Whilst they might have more mages, do they know how to pull off something akin to the Great Ghost Dance? The only reason the natives did was that Thais- Aina the IE's son- had told them previously. The blood mage faction of Aztechnology knows how to do magic on that scale, but no-one likes them so the Native Americans cancel out the magic and everyone else would probably chip in militarily to slauhter them.
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 03:53 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||||
L.A. only recently fell into Native hands. Denver is divided into sections, and is not wholely in Native hands. San Francisco has never belonged to the Natives in Shadowrun. Salt Lake City has a special arrangement whereby most, if not all of it belongs to the Mormons. Portland is in Tir Tairngire, which IIRC succceeded from the NAN a while ago. |
San Francisco wouldn't be an easier goal if the the NAN wasn't in the way, and we know how much UCAS likes Saito....And the UCAS just is buddy-buddy with the elves...
But the only logical reason UCAS wouldn't want any major CFS city is that the NAN would be in the middle of them.Seeing as those CFS could be worth the the grass lands in the middle of the cities....
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 03:55 AM
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) | ||
Whilst they might have more mages, do they know how to pull off something akin to the Great Ghost Dance? The only reason the natives did was that Thais- Aina the IE's son- had told them previously. The blood mage faction of Aztechnology knows how to do magic on that scale, but no-one likes them so the Native Americans cancel out the magic and everyone else would probably chip in militarily to slauhter them. |
Um, isn't the VP of the UCAS also an IE.Isn't she also the head of the DF,witch is a will of Big d.Didn't Big D,want to remake the US of f***ing A?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 04:33 AM
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| Um, isn't the VP of the UCAS also an IE.Isn't she also the head of the DF,witch is a will of Big d.Didn't Big D,want to remake the US of f***ing A? |
Um, no! Daviar is not in any way described as an IE, or even an elf for that matter.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 04:36 AM
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| San Francisco wouldn't be an easier goal if the the NAN wasn't in the way, and we know how much UCAS likes Saito....And the UCAS just is buddy-buddy with the elves... But the only logical reason UCAS wouldn't want any major CFS city is that the NAN would be in the middle of them.Seeing as those CFS could be worth the the grass lands in the middle of the cities.... |
Considering the UCAS let California go without a fight, I don't see their number 1 priority being getting it back.
Other than that, I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 21 2004, 05:33 AM
Me neither. Care to clarify some? Preferably without the gratuitous swearing.
And on Daviar, I'm fairly sure that she's an elf. One of the books mentions it- something about representatives from Tir Tairngire throwing a hissy fit saying they wouldn't come if she was there, and someone chiming in about how they figured they'd of liked an Elf as VP.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 05:56 AM
She may well be. My mind is in pause-mode at the moment, and I can't recall for sure.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 06:11 AM
probably. after all, elves are teh l33testt!!!!!!!@!1211212!!!
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 06:20 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Considering the UCAS let California go without a fight, I don't see their number 1 priority being getting it back. Other than that, I'm not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. |
My point is this the only semi valid reason the UCAS let the CFS go,is because they had other things to deal with,mainly the idea that the south would go to war,and it was hard to maintain any supplies, too or from there.The NAN being in the way and all.
Now the NAN aren't the only people with powerful mojo,as at least one IE is working with the DF.Big D,had plans of reforming the US,and funny how the Leader of the UCAS is said to be in the "draco party",also the largest UCAS company has military assists in CFS.THe point,being?UCAS has means and motives to invading the NAN.The NAN,doesn't have the man,or magical power to stop them.
As for the elves in power in the UCAS,look at Do6W.
"Many in DeeCee Believe that Daviar will be both the first woman and the first elf to become president..."
Aina Dupree is at least a spike baby.
Frank Hardy is of unknow age.
Grace Freil could maybe a free-spirit.
Most of the shamans that knew the GGD died, in the casting,or died in the many years after it,and until now.
So,the NAN has lost most of their best shamans, and the UCAS gains many friends in high places.
And I left out the IE's who like UCAS, until somone brought in the IE thingie the NAN had.
Posted by: Bölverk Jan 21 2004, 06:34 AM
p. 26, SR3:
"2039: The great dragon Dunkelzahn's second interpreter resigns and is replaced by Nadja Daviar, an Eastern European elf with no personal history on file. (And I mean nothing. Lots of us have been looking.)"
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 06:46 AM
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
| My point is this the only semi valid reason the UCAS let the CFS go,is because they had other things to deal with,mainly the idea that the south would go to war,and it was hard to maintain any supplies, too or from there.The NAN being in the way and all. |
Yeah, because that really affected their ownership of Seattle. Seriously, California threatened to leave, the UCAS said "ok, bye", and that was that.
| QUOTE |
| Now the NAN aren't the only people with powerful mojo,as at least one IE is working with the DF.Big D,had plans of reforming the US,and funny how the Leader of the UCAS is said to be in the "draco party",also the largest UCAS company has military assists in CFS.THe point,being?UCAS has means and motives to invading the NAN.The NAN,doesn't have the man,or magical power to stop them. |
What IE is this?
As for Ares having interests in CFS, well, they are a AAA multinational company. What they are not is a puppet of the UCAS.
As to your assertation that the NAN hasn't got the mojo to stop the UCAS, I think that's just not true. But then again, it's pretty much speculation on both of our parts, because there are no UCAS plans to actually invade the NAN as of yet.
| QUOTE |
| "Many in DeeCee Believe that Daviar will be both the first woman and the first elf to become president..." |
And she probably will be. So?
| QUOTE |
| Aina Dupree is at least a spike baby. |
Aina is an IE who is the mother to a half-Horror. She is not in the UCAS' pocket, but she does presently sit on the board of the Dunky Institute, along with a couple of other IEs.
| QUOTE |
| Most of the shamans that knew the GGD died, in the casting,or died in the many years after it,and until now. |
Considering that another version of the GGD was performed in the 2050s, it's not likely that the knowledge of this ritual is as lost as you think.
| QUOTE |
| So,the NAN has lost most of their best shamans, and the UCAS gains many friends in high places. |
Speculation!
| QUOTE |
| And I left out the IE's who like UCAS, until somone brought in the IE thingie the NAN had. |
As I previously asked....these are?
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 06:46 AM
playing games, the GGD is a tradition--a tradition that the shaman who performed it would be stupid to have not passed on.
as far as big mojo is concerned, there is nothing to indicate that either the UCAS or the CAS are working on anything matching the GGD in terms of power. nor in the TT, to be honest, and it's not like they're shorthanded in the IE department. nor is there any indication that the DF is working on anything like that. IE != powerful ritual magic.
and, honestly? Ares is not a "UCAS company". that's the whole point of extraterritoriality. yeah, they tend to play up the American Corporation jazz inside the UCAS--but do you really think Ares' CAS subsidiaries whistle the same tune?
i really don't see what CFS has to offer the UCAS, right now. half of their country is overrun by some foreign power or another, and there's a league of nations in the way that can field a fairly passable military. you have to remember, the UCAS is not the US, and that definitely applies to the military: the UCAS is down to something like 25% of its former size, it's lost a huge part of its revenue (the breadbasket areas now owned by the NAN), and it's suffered a number of serious blows in the past sixty years.
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 07:27 AM
ironically, the lose said land would make them more aggressive.The US doesn't need to retake,or gain anymore land.It has most everything it needs.The UCAS on the other hand has been wounded,and done so in away that makes anything that happened to the US in the real world look small.In the next 60 years North America loses roughly 80 million people.How many were killed in the ghost dance?The NAN war?
UCAS has so much to gain from retaking the NAN land,and the NAN has too small of a population base.We lost vietnam, because they were willing lose 10 men for every one of us they killed.We lost because we we fighting a limited war,with an enemy that drew no lines.Every major battle in that war was won by the US,barring the one at home.
i really don't see what CFS has to offer the UCAS, right now. half of their country is overrun by some foreign power or another, and there's a league of nations in the way that can field a fairly passable military. you have to remember, the UCAS is not the US, and that definitely applies to the military: the UCAS is down to something like 25% of its former size, it's lost a huge part of its revenue (the breadbasket areas now owned by the NAN), and it's suffered a number of serious blows in the past sixty years.
And having 40% of the land they used to have,is not reason enough?Keeping in mind that that is some the most worth wile land that they lost.
Posted by: White Knight Jan 21 2004, 08:37 AM
Countries tend not to invade others simply on a whim. Even if there is an economic advantage in doing so and the opposition doesn't stand a chance of even slowing them down.
For instance, why are we not seeing France and Britain going over to Africa with the general statement of "This whole independence thing had been fun and all but we kinda like the whole Imperial Power idea." Both countries are nuclear powers and have huge armies (despite not always supplying soldiers with minor items like bullets). Africa contains little things like vast oil reserves and diamond mines. Yet still it doesn't happen and anyone bringing up the idea would be publicly crucified.
Countries do not work on the logic of wargames. They are vastly more complicated.
RE: Magical weapons, Year of the Comet (or a sourcebook of about the same time) mentions that the UCAS hopes to be able to use the Washington Rift in some way as it is lagging behind on Ghost Dance level magical firepower. The NAN are still the superpower in this matter.
Posted by: Namergon Jan 21 2004, 10:58 AM
My two cents.
Population issue: it has been said and written in SONA, the NAN may have a population < in number to those of their neighbors, but not so much <. Many former US anglos lives in some of these NAN, moreover.
Magic mojo, NAN vs US:
Clearly, the US gov was taken by surprise. Plus, the SAIM was nothing more than an extremist group of terrorists, who had Mother Nature on their side. Magic was something still rather unbelievable, people was just starting to believe the fact that magic was possible at all when Coleman evaded from his camp. How do you handle a terrorist group within your own borders, that evades your satellite observation, and use methods and weapons they shouldn't be able to use ?
What do you do when billions of dollars of military equipment and thousands of military personnel vanish in ashes during a sudden volcanic eruption ?
Someone talked about capturing a shaman. How ? Do you think the shamans at this time wielded signs with "I'm a shaman, shoot me" written on them ? Do you think reservations were still full ? There wasn't nobody except the oldest and weakest people there, people of no harm for the US government. Taking them as "hostage" would have been very difficult. The real threat, the valid and engaged Natives, were hidden, magically hidden from the US satellite eyes. Plus they had allies, among the Mormons, and others in the US. Not everyone were happy with a corporation sold out government which harassed a population for the resources of their land.
Don't forget the real cause of all this mess: money.
Let's assume the Feds try hard to capture a shaman. How do they gather information that their own few mages cannot already give them ? The SAIM guys were extremist, they were willing to die for their cause. I don't think that taking a valuable member of this group alive has been possible.
In conclusion, I don't see real inconsistencies in the way the native could reclaim the land they eventually took over.
Magic mojo, NAN vs any 2060 american nation:
According to SONA, the CAS has probably the best army in North America. UCAS military is better in technology, but the CAS guys have more day-to-day practical experience (thanks to Aztlan).
The "ghost" 
of the GGD is still fresh in the minds of the rulers of non-NAN Nations. I think SONA makes quite a good job showing how this alone has a big impact on the power balance in North America, how the NAN still rely too much on that, and how fragile the situation is for them. The NAN could only win a conflict if it was a short one, and if they were all united against their agressors.
However, it is still true that these nations have an edge in magic over most of their neighors (TT Aztlan probably being the only exceptions). Why ? Because magic is far better integrated in their society model. Magic is part of their dayly culture, and it reflects in every layer of their (military especially) organisation.
Someone pointed figures stating that the UCAS had far more magicians than all the NAN altogether. Statistically speaking true. But how many of these are trained and has a related job in the UCAS ? How many in the NAN. I think that in the UCAS, no more that 10% at best, in the NAN, more than 2/3 I'd bet. With these figures, even if the UCAS have 5 times more magicians within their population than the NAN, the NAN end up with more trained magic users. I'd only admit a bias of the NAN toward hermetic magic, but I think it should have a bit faded by 2061.
I may come back later about (non military) reasons to try to take back NAN, or not to try that.
Posted by: Nath Jan 21 2004, 02:14 PM
| QUOTE (Namergon) |
| According to SONA, the CAS has probably the best army in North America. |
The NAGNA did state the CAS might have the best field forces in North America. IIRC, SoNA only states the CAS have the largest armed forces in North America and that their linbe troops are better trained. For the poeple willing to count, they have 6 active Army divisions, 2 Marine expeditionary forces, 16 combat squadrons in the Air Force, the "largest submarines force in the world", but only two 50ktons carriers and a brow-water navy centered on the Guld and overall seemingly weaker than the UCAS. I wouldn't also be surprised if Texas had an over-inflated National Guard.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| Hmm... I've been trying to find solid figures about the current size of the US military, but I'm having trouble doing so. Anyone out there know where such information can be found? |
Just http://www.mfrc-dodqol.org/pdffiles/I_Militar_%20Personnel.pdf ! In 2001, 1.4 million in the active forces, and 875,000 more in the reserve, counting the Coast Guard. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military have a lot more of info regarding numbers of soldiers, divisions and so on, but you have to collect it through several pages. They also link toward a http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9059/usaob.html.
To compare to the CAS numbers given above, the US have nowadays something like 10-12 active Army divisions and 3 MEF. So the CAS has between a half and a third of what the US had, which is equivalent when related to population (CAS 105 millions, US 275 millions).
Posted by: Birdy Jan 21 2004, 04:08 PM
There's one mayor difference between that Insurrection in the 10s and today - The nannies are independent nations. If (U)CAS really wants them to be gone, they can always pull that big magic trick from the 1960s called "Press da red batton" and throw a major! fireball. Since quite a few nannies are "back to nature" chances are slim they have a missile defence like Russia had and the (U)CAS most likely have (They should have learned what killed the Lone Eagle, IMHO the good ole Sowjet ABM system of real life fame)
Add the magic crap the (U)CAS can pull for it self and the lil injun insurrection goes down the drekker really fast.
Birdy
Posted by: Nath Jan 21 2004, 04:21 PM
Reminds me the rumors suggesting the Sioux might have nuclear weapons. No delivery system so I guess they'd rely on special forces to move them.
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 06:24 PM
| QUOTE (Nath) | ||||
The NAGNA did state the CAS might have the best field forces in North America. IIRC, SoNA only states the CAS have the largest armed forces in North America and that their linbe troops are better trained. For the poeple willing to count, they have 6 active Army divisions, 2 Marine expeditionary forces, 16 combat squadrons in the Air Force, the "largest submarines force in the world", but only two 50ktons carriers and a brow-water navy centered on the Guld and overall seemingly weaker than the UCAS. I wouldn't also be surprised if Texas had an over-inflated National Guard.
Just http://www.mfrc-dodqol.org/pdffiles/I_Militar_%20Personnel.pdf ! In 2001, 1.4 million in the active forces, and 875,000 more in the reserve, counting the Coast Guard. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military have a lot more of info regarding numbers of soldiers, divisions and so on, but you have to collect it through several pages. They also link toward a http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9059/usaob.html. To compare to the CAS numbers given above, the US have nowadays something like 10-12 active Army divisions and 3 MEF. So the CAS has between a half and a third of what the US had, which is equivalent when related to population (CAS 105 millions, US 275 millions). |
And I seem to recall something about the thinking they the last chance to reform the US.They call the UCAS sellouts.
What kind of PR would CAS get for retaking stolen land,both by NAN and rouge militants?
Posted by: JongWK Jan 21 2004, 08:51 PM
This is part cold data, part deduction.
North American nukes:
Ares
You name it, they've got it.
Aztlan
Don't have the book right here, but I love the paragraph in Aztlan SB.
Aztlan doesn't have nukes, Thor missiles, FOBS, etc. Nada.
They don't need to. Aztechnology more than makes up for it.
California (Saito)
The UCAS nukes went away with the Feds' withdrawal. The JIS nukes went aways with the Marines' withdrawal.
Still, Saito would certainly love to get a few of them. Maybe one or two fell from an Akihito carrier when the Emperor recalled them.
CAS
The South has the US boomer fleet, while the Union got the land based missiles and the strategic bombers.
CATCo
A small mega, but their Seraphims are top notch, and could have possibly obtained a spare nuke in the black market (or in an Ares' warehouse )
Novatech
Another small mega, but they have Fuchi Orbital.
PCC
The Pueblo have nukes or are trying very hard (and very secretly) to produce them, count on it. they have the technological capability, the resources and the reasons (Aztlan, CAS, etc.) to have them as a last line of defense.
Quebec
No mention whatsoever, but with that paranoid, "the-Anglos-are-out-to-get-us" mentality...
Salish-Shidhe Possibly, but not for sure. One of their tribes (Makah?) captured a Trident-missile submarine base during the NAN-US War. Some Captains managed to sink their subs and the nukes. The SSC wouldn't be the first party to try to recover them (Secrets of Power Trilogy, anyone?).
Sioux
I'm willing to bet that the most militaristic nation in North America has at least one nuke stored in a Wildcat closet. It is possible that some of Ares' Sioux employees might be a tad too friendly to their government.
Tir Tairngire
Who knows? On one hand, the rulers are IEs and I don't think they wouldn't like to have one or two. On the other hand, there is absolutely no reference to this possibility. Bioweapons yes, nukes no.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 21 2004, 10:13 PM
| QUOTE (Birdy) |
| There's one mayor difference between that Insurrection in the 10s and today - The nannies are independent nations. If (U)CAS really wants them to be gone, they can always pull that big magic trick from the 1960s called "Press da red batton" and throw a major! fireball. Since quite a few nannies are "back to nature" chances are slim they have a missile defence like Russia had and the (U)CAS most likely have (They should have learned what killed the Lone Eagle, IMHO the good ole Sowjet ABM system of real life fame) Add the magic crap the (U)CAS can pull for it self and the lil injun insurrection goes down the drekker really fast. Birdy |
Some points to ponder:
Back to nature does not mean absolutely no technology. It means they try to have less of a negative environmental impact on what they do us. It means citizens of the NAN will likely drive diesel (is it me, or anyone else find it odd that you can’t get or build a diesel car in SR when diesel cars have been around for years and there are even kits to run them off used vegetable oil?) or electric cars. They will hold on to them for 10 to 20 years instead of trading them out ever year or two. It means they are more likely to eat whole foods, practice forms of holistic medicine along side conventional, avoid the use of pesticides, practice crop rotation instead of over fertilization, build houses out of materials that will decay quickly when abandoned, recycle and reuse when ever possible, the list goes on. Does anyone happen remember the quote from the Tribal Warrior character archetype from one of the earlier versions?
I think it is likely the NAN have both nuclear capabilities as well as the means to launch them. Most of the US missile silos are in what would be NAN lands.
Any sort of aggression from any side would likely end up with a five way war between the nations the North America, four *if* (big if here) the CAS and UCAS ally. In other words a real cluster frag, and likely a scorched earth victory (in other word, you win, but end up either destroying your target objective, or damaging it to such a degree to make it unusable). With the fact the food from the NAN will likely cut off from the aggressors, can any nation afford to rely on its own supplies to feed its population? You can't just drop ship farmers in the middle of a combat zone, the farmers there are not going to work at gun point, and most people in the CAS, UCAS, Aztlan, and CFS do not know enough about farming in that region to get large scale food production going soon enough to make a difference. In other words, if push came to shove, the NAN could just leave their farms and engage in a large scale reverse siege and starve the aggressors out.
We also have a similar situation to look at that occurred in our own (relatively) recent past, the seven days war. Here we have a whole group of Middle East nations with lots of money and manpower teaming up against Israel, a nations with some money, yes but not as much, and not nearly as much manpower. And the Israelis kicked butt. One reason for this was because the Israelis knew and utilized the land much better, an advantage I think the NAN would likely share. Also, I would not put it past the most of the NAN to support compulsory military service.
Since most resources are not even owned my governments at all, by the most powerful and influential forces in the Shadowrun world, I think most of you are forgetting to think about how they would feel about World War III. Namely the Megacorps. War to that degree is not profitable for the majority of Megacorps. Sure, most have some holdings in arms manufacture, but that is not the bulk of where their income is derived from. It comes from sales of general consumer goods, which rely on strong consumer confidence. Consumers tend to get edgy around war and don’t make a many big purchases. Finally, most countries tend to nationalize their private industry when they go to major war. Or at least nationalize what are seen as most vital. They do not do nice things like buy up companies stocks or processing plants, but do so by fiat, if the industries in question do not want to play ball the way the government in question wants to play it. These are not conditions the Megacorporations are interested in condoning. It’s bad for business.
But it seems like Playing Games is wanting to see the NAN invaded and feels they deserve to be and no argument to going to persuade hir otherwise. PG, if you want an invasion in your game then I say go for it. No one has ever said that the state of the continent has to stay static. I’m sure it would make for an interesting campaign. The players could be mercs, special ops, or spies. Or you could set the game in a post war era, and the players could be vets, trying to make their way in a dramatically changed world. A world where their services are no longer needed and many of the population look on them with a mix of fear, disgust, and anger, especially the overly wired and augmented ones. If you do take that route, I would strongly suggest searching out and acquiring a copy of Underground if you can. Has a very cyberpunk meets 1960s Vietnam vet meets 1940s imagry and patriotism meets 1950s "land of tomorrow and opportunity" feel to it. Great stuff
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 21 2004, 11:08 PM
My point is that the NAN in the canon world lack man power to stop (U)CAS.The numbers in the PCC verge on having negatitive poplulace before 2061.
The great back bone of the NAN,the Suix has or lost anywhere from 8-14% of their population to denver.
The Ute has or lost 16-30% of their population to or in Denver.
The Ute has lost anyware from 40-50% the modern day population in their area.
Not a singel NAN has a population to make a city that would be note worthily on the US map.They lack man power to do what they do.Their is no reason that any of the NAN could keep up with (U)CAS,in either tech or magic.Even with the great ghost dance magic, they lost their edge.
The natives use the great ghost dance level of magic,this causes the(U)CAS to go into a MAD plan.When the great ghost dance first happened nuking was a lose for the US,as they would be nuking themselves.Now the NAN if pulls out their mistical nukes,the (U)CAS,pulls out it's real ones.
As for the 7 day war,it is nothing like the (U)CAS invading the NAN.The invading forces were going for the same stragtic goal, their tatical goals were nothing alike.The problems they had would more like the problems the NAN would have,than the (U)CAS.Too many Cheifs.
My problem is hte numbers in the NAN.If I were change the NAN,they would each have 1-5 million people with the PCC geting 8-13 million.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 11:25 PM
the UCAS has way too much on its plate to consider going on the offense with anybody. i mean, look at the past ten years: they nearly went to war with the CAS, they elected a dragon for prez and then watched him get blown up on national trid, they nuked chicago--and that's just what's gone on inside their borders, that i can think of off the top of my head. and it's not like the UCAS military has a whole lot of manpower to spare, either--while taking on the NAN, they'd still have to man the CAS border. there's also the matter of Ghostwalker to consider--do you think he'd stand by and watch, while the UCAS gobbled up the land? there's plenty of reason to think Denver would be next on the list; the first thing the NAN would do would be to enlist his help. the UCAS military planners aren't stupid; they know all this, and that's one of the major reasons that this hasn't happened.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 21 2004, 11:53 PM
Again PG, if you feel that the NAN should be invaded then run it. You were asking for reason why they have not and we gave the most realistic and plausable reasons there seem to be. Apparently you are still not satisfied and seem to be looking for reasons for the NAN to be invaded. If you want to go that route and would like to have an idea of the international coniquences of such an action I am sure there are plenty on this board that would brainstorm with you there as well.
Or if you think the NAN should have a greater population, then do so. I would suggest giving a reason for it though.
And you never know, maybe the designers have an invasion of the NAN in the works already. I'm sure it would make for an interesting plot twist and just think of all the nifty cyber and bioware that would come out of it. Not to mention advances in vehicle technology. Maybe we'd finally get some nifty powered armor...
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jan 22 2004, 12:05 AM
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| Third, you don't need air strikes to crush a rebellion in the middle of a hostile population that outnumbers the rebels at least 150:1. |
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dude. Please. I can think of one (strategic) western state where a majority (or at least, a very sizable pecentage approaching 50%) of the population would be on the NAN's side, and in canon... was. Not only out of historical ties to the native populations, but also for several political reasons which I don't need to get into but, frankly, would likely see them pulling for the Amerinds than the Anglos back East.
It also doesn't hurt that because Aztlan was originally a NAN nation, most Latinos and Chicanos were also effectively NANners (SoNA). Given the fact that peoples of Mexican descent make up between 70-80% of the entire Hispanic population (whihc is about 12% of the total US population), that's not a small amount of people who are going to stick around.
| QUOTE (Playing Games) |
As for the elves in power in the UCAS,look at Do6W. "Many in DeeCee Believe that Daviar will be both the first woman and the first elf to become president..." |
That's already wrong. Betty Jo Pritchard was the first woman President, and it has been mentioned as such in at least two SBs (Super Tuesday and POAD: DS).
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
Aina is an IE who is the mother to a half-Horror. She is not in the UCAS' pocket, but she does presently sit on the board of the Dunky Institute, along with a couple of other IEs. |
Aina's on the DF board, Ehran's Chair of DIMR. They are, AFAIK, the only elves on either (save Ms. Daviar, of course).
| QUOTE (Playinh Games) |
My point is this the only semi valid reason the UCAS let the CFS go,is because they had other things to deal with,mainly the idea that the south would go to war,and it was hard to maintain any supplies, too or from there.The NAN being in the way and all. |
Actually, the UCAS essentially kicked out California over a pissing contest. (From the Timeline):
| QUOTE |
2036 - In DeeCee Sprawl, UCAS, California representatives recognize their secession Proposition 129 and begin to push for heavy economic and political concessions. President MacAlister calls California Governor Nelson Treacle and tells him that if his state votes to seceded he will hang them out to dry. (Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America) 2036 - In California, UCAS, lawmakers approve legislation dissolving California's political bond to the UCAS. Secession from the Union lacks only Governor Treacle's signature, but he is in Africa at the time. (Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America) 2036 - In the UCAS, upon hearing about California's bid for secession, President MacAlister goes before Congress and declares, under Article IV, Section 3 of the UCAS Constitution, California no longer qualifies as a member of the UCAS. (Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America) |
The reclamation of California was one of the six or so major campaign issues in the 2057 election. It provided a significant backdrop in every chapter of the CFS sourcebook (published during the election), and has continued to remain an issue in several books up through at least SoNA. Having CA would give the UCAS access to the Pacific (without having to go through NAN lands like they do in Seattle), and more importantly, a country that is stupid rich with an incredible number of resources--specifically people, agriculture (The Central Valley is... wow), and natural resources in the northern crescent. They do lack water, but so does the NAN. Going through the NAN (PCC) would given them some control over the Colorado River (the lifeblood of the Imperial Valley and most of the southland), but ...
The risks aren't worth the rewards. Invading and occupying a country like PCC would mean putting up with foreign and internal threats that would make it incredibly stupid to prosecute without draggging the entire continent into war with itself. And CFS has repeatedly told the UCAS to piss off, so... eh.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 22 2004, 01:36 AM
Plus Pueblo might have nukes of their own and that's always fun.
Posted by: Nath Jan 22 2004, 01:42 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jan 22 2004, 01:05 AM) |
| Having CA would give the UCAS access to the Pacific (without having to go through NAN lands like they do in Seattle) |
Errr... how to say that nicely... check a map
You can't go from UCAS to Californian coast without going through NAN lands. If you don't count Aztlan as a NAN, you can eventually make it crossing the CAS and Aztlan borders. But then you can also go to Seattle by crossing CAS, Aztlan, California and Tairngire (if you don't consider Tainrgire as a NAN as well). I'm not sure that what's you'd call an access to the Pacific anyway.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2004, 03:48 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| Aina's on the DF board, Ehran's Chair of DIMR. They are, AFAIK, the only elves on either (save Ms. Daviar, of course). |
Yeah, I meant to write Foundation instead of Institute. I knew Ehran was chair of DIMR, but I thought there was one other IE (besides Aina) lurking around there as well. Oh well.
As for everyone's comments on nukes: IIRC, the only nuke that has worked even partially the way it was supposed to since the awakening was the one used in Bug City.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 22 2004, 04:15 AM
Yeah. As has been discussed on a number of occassions round here, nucleasr weapons do seem to have the annoying habit of fizzling in the Shadowrun world. Generally thought that mana is in some way connected with it. Although nuclear power stations seem to be still working fine so you never know.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2004, 04:32 AM
| QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jan 22 2004, 03:15 PM) |
| Although nuclear power stations seem to be still working fine so you never know. |
At least the ones that didn't self-destruct.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 22 2004, 05:49 AM
Yeah, but that hasn't happened for a good twenty-thirty years or so. Or mainly outside of Europe. I still say that the authors nuked whole swathes of countryside because they just couldn't be arsed writing about it/wordcount.
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 22 2004, 07:26 AM
| QUOTE (sable twilight) |
| Or if you think the NAN should have a greater population, then do so. I would suggest giving a reason for it though. |
Let's deal with this one problem.THE area that the NAN has now more people than the NAN does.In some cases as much as 200%,All the NAN nations in Denver,have lost a large part of their population, to the rule of a dragon.(U)CAS also lost hundreds of thousands,but they both are nations in the hundreds of millions.
The PCC gained 6-13 million people from LA county,not counting orgen county, and the other towns,cities near there.Yet,they have a population less than 14 million.
ADD the fact that unless those natives, or close natives moved away/died, the NAN is only roughly 60% of their number today.This means no anglos in,at all.
And speaking of Denver,one could argue,that is the largest population of UTE citizens,outside of Salt Lake city.If not, it is danged close.
Posted by: mfb Jan 22 2004, 07:33 AM
keep in mind that there are numerous enclaves within the NAN that aren't technically part of the country. these enclaves are roughly analogous to the indian reservations today--they pretty much govern themselves. it's easily possible that these enclaves are not counted in the population numbers given by the books.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 05:01 PM
| QUOTE (Playing Games @ Jan 22 2004, 02:26 AM) | ||
Let's deal with this one problem.THE area that the NAN has now more people than the NAN does.In some cases as much as 200%,All the NAN nations in Denver,have lost a large part of their population, to the rule of a dragon.(U)CAS also lost hundreds of thousands,but they both are nations in the hundreds of millions. The PCC gained 6-13 million people from LA county,not counting orgen county, and the other towns,cities near there.Yet,they have a population less than 14 million. ADD the fact that unless those natives, or close natives moved away/died, the NAN is only roughly 60% of their number today.This means no anglos in,at all. And speaking of Denver,one could argue,that is the largest population of UTE citizens,outside of Salt Lake city.If not, it is danged close. |
And your issue with the population is what exactly? And it is a problem in what way? Is it you have a tough time believing the population drop? That the NAN kicked the Anglos out? That the Hispanics in the region didn't head south to the promised land of Aztlan when it formed up? Or that there was a plague that hit and wiped out a large chunk of the world's population?
You keep bring up the same thing, and only thing up, over and over, that the NAN does not have a large enough population to hold back a military attack from Aztlan, CFS, UCAS, or CAS, yet you ignore just about every other point that has been made.
Yes, you are right, if it were a one on one fight between the NAN and the UCAS, the UCAS would cream the NAN. But you repeatedly fail to consider that it would not be and never be a one on one fight between the UCAS and the NAN. It would end up being the UCAS against a coalition made of the NAN, CAS, CFS, and Aztlan. This is assuming that Europe stays completely out of the picture. Do you honestly think the UCAS, or any nation in North America for that matter, can think take on a coalition made of the other four major powers on the North American continent?
Even if the UCAS and CAS came to some sort of agreement and allied to invade the NAN, that would still be a pretty nasty fight, and not one the UCAS and CAS are guaranteed to win either.
So, that is one reason not to start a war.
A second reason, you have failed to take into consideration, what to the ones holding the purse strings, namely the Magacorporation want. If they do not want a major war going on in the region, it simply is not going to happen no matter how many "good" reasons the hawks can come up with. You think soft money and corporate corruption is bad today? It is supposed to be even worse in the 2060s.
Third reason not to go to war you have yet to counter; the NAN is the bread basket for the rest of the North American continent. You go to war with the NAN, they cut off your food supply. Pretty simple there. Once the food is cut off, how does the UCAS feed that big army of theirs? How do they feed that excessive population you keep going on about? Most of them live in that giant East Coast sprawl. The CAS has very little farmland, and the UCAS has almost none at all.
Currently, in the real world, the major metropolitan centers of the United States have maybe 3 days to a week's worth of food stored in them at any given time. This means that if food shipment stopped, all the food in all the markets would be gone within a week. That is if people act calmly and ration themselves out, which is doubtful. In the world of Shadowrun, with advances in predicting consumption, just in time delivery methods, and the like, that margin is even less. In Corporate Shadowfiles they even discussed this, but in terms of a large scale communications shutdown. It was pretty much agreed that at any given moment, society was pretty much three days away from collapse and anarchy. All they was needed was a way to cut food supplies off to the major cities. War with the NAN would do that quite nicely. Do you really think the UCAS can invade, take over all of the NAN, get food production back up and running, and shipped back to the cities along the east coast in three days? Hope the NAN don't burn the fields.
A fourth reason, the NAN, CFS, CAS, and UCAS are pretty much allies. I don’t know where you are from or what sort of games you play, but allies don’t normally go around attacking one another on a whim. Generally there has to be some pretty major reasons for an ally to even consider breaking off an alliance, let alone going to all out war.
Fifth, there is no popular support for a war with the NAN. Most people live in the sprawl and that is where most of them care to stay. The do not want vast open plains or the hassles that come with dealing with them. Most of the CFS, CAS, and UCAS population is more then happy to deal NAN deal with that region. If they really want to get out to wide open lands bad enough, they either find a way to prove they are part Native American (not that had really, considering there are more people with some amount of Native American then you can swing a stick at), or they go to some place that is looking for immigrate.
This is not a game of risk, where the only factor is the number of pieces you have on the board.. It is much more complex then that. So before going off, yet again, about how little population the NAN as and how much more the UCAS, CAS, CFS, or Aztlan have, and how easy it would be to invade, please address the other reasons that have been put forth first.
Posted by: John Campbell Jan 22 2004, 05:52 PM
| QUOTE (sable twilight) |
| Third reason not to go to war you have yet to counter; the NAN is the bread basket for the rest of the North American continent. You go to war with the NAN, they cut off your food supply. Pretty simple there. Once the food is cut off, how does the UCAS feed that big army of theirs? How do they feed that excessive population you keep going on about? Most of them live in that giant East Coast sprawl. The CAS has very little farmland, and the UCAS has almost none at all. |
Wrong. Check the map again. UCAS territory extends well out into Montana, and includes most of the Great Plains.... most of the Midwest farm states/provinces belong to UCAS. NAN's territory is primarily the Rocky Mountains.
Shadowrun's "giant East Coast sprawl" isn't all that impressive, either. The population of the world has not actually increased, and most of the territory that NAN totally implausibly pushed whitey out of was not particularly heavily populated, either (and they couldn't have been very successful at actually pushing people out, anyway, because there's no fragging way that a starting population of two million Natives produced the population that the NA Nations are alleged to have in 2060). Basically, there shouldn't be significantly more sprawl than there is now. The "OMG real food is so rare, everyone has to eat tofu" thing is total BS, too, while we're on the subject. The population's not that high, and the North American agricultural areas were not significantly disrupted.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 06:03 PM
Then I stand correct on that point. I have not looked at the map in a while. Of course this still works in the NAN's favor, since if the NAN do not control the main agicultural region of North America, this gives the UCAS even less reason to invade.
Posted by: spotlite Jan 22 2004, 06:34 PM
Er, there's an angle that doesn't seem to have been considered as a reason as to why they don't go to war. Quite apart from all the nuclear and magical threat, and treaties, is the very real fact that the corporations and corporate interests largely control the political decisions in most of the countries in north america by 2060-odd. By 2040-odd really. And war is bad for every business except arms, which are profitable, true. But for a mega corp the consumer market is far easier and far safer to a: dominate and b: control. When there's a war on you've got all the supply problems, assets getting damaged in cross fire.. there's a reason why they don't like corp war.
Now, wars in many areas are indeed funded by the corps. But the NA market is one of the most lucrative, because its citizens are some of the most wealthy, They need it stable and safe. Border skirmishes between NAN nations don't flare up to continent wide wars. The foreign nations (read UCAS, the Tir, CAS, Aztlan, etc) don't care cos as far as they're concerned its an internal matter and they like to see the 'injuns' fighting amongst themselves. If one of those foreign nations gets involved in ANYthing, though, things could easily escalate very quickly, depending on who's involved against who. But in those countries the corps can hold sway to prevent it happening. The only exceptions are the Tir and Aztlan, where in the case of the former, mostly everyone else will stay out of it cos no one wants to help the upstart elves, and the latter because if they go to war with anyone there's no doubt about it everyone will jump all over them cos they've got no mates. (sorry if that joke is lost on americans! Its a UK thing I think)
I think that is a much larger factor than you're giving credit for. All Ares has to do is refuse to supply ammunition and the UCAS is screwed if it tried anything and Ares didn't. If Ares did that then they'd lose all consumer support of course unless things were engineered differently, but the UCAS still can't really risk it or they'd look very silly indeed. Stalemate. Which is echoed throughout all the other dealings with the nations. Its not the only cause, but I do think its a big one.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 06:44 PM
I did mention the Megacorp angle. Twice even. But you explained it much better and in more detail then I did.
Posted by: John Campbell Jan 22 2004, 06:57 PM
Actually, I just checked the map myself - the good fold-out one in SR2, not the one in SR3 which doesn't show modern boundaries - and it looks like the UCAS/Sioux border actually follows the Montana line there, so my estimate was a bit off. Montana belongs entirely to NAN. However, the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas do belong mostly to UCAS, as does everything east of them, so my point still stands.
Posted by: spotlite Jan 22 2004, 07:00 PM
| QUOTE (sable twilight) |
| I did mention the Megacorp angle. Twice even. But you explained it much better and in more detail then I did. |
I'm really sorry mate, I didn't spot it. I admit I did only skim through the last few pages, so I must've missed it. I did see Ares mentioned but nothing else, so I kind of assumed (yes, yes, I know what that makes) that it had been missed. But I do think its more important than is taken into consideration. The political angle is very important, but I think the corporate one is equally, if not more so.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 07:15 PM
Null sweet. I think you did a good job explaining it too.
Posted by: Nath Jan 22 2004, 07:52 PM
| QUOTE (sable twilight @ Jan 22 2004, 06:01 PM) |
| A fourth reason, the NAN, CFS, CAS, and UCAS are pretty much allies. |
If you read the Sioux chapter of SoNA, things are pretty much a cold war between Washington and Cheyenne. The Sioux forces train exclusively on UCAS invasion scenario. Sure, all western armed forces trained for years on Fulda Gap scenario during the real Cold War, but actual war never happened. I just mean UCAS and Sioux are about as much allies than France and Soviet Union were (I took France rather than US because things aren't maybe that bad between the UCAS and the Sioux).
Posted by: Playing Games Jan 22 2004, 08:42 PM
None of the NAN are that friendly with any of the AAA's.Any of the friendly deals that the NAN make with the big ten,aren't nearly as friendly as the deal the (U)CAS make with the big ten.
The the fallowing nations have their hands full,SSC,Aztlan,UTE,PCC,CFS,UCAS.
Aztlan gain from CAS invading PCC.PCC forcing all Aztlan's shops out,great way to make friends!
Many others gain as well,as PCC is rather tight fisted with the AA-AAA's
Many people of the same people who would gain from the PCC getting annexed by CAS would gain from them doing it to the UTE.
Seeing as every military power in North America is busy,besides CAS.CAS has a hall pass,to more power.
Oh,I think europe,is to big of mess,and or apathetic to send enough man power to change the the face of any war.THe UN,haha!The UN,can't stop Saito,or Tsimshian,both of witch are breaking the rules of war, and human rights.Both of witch have less resources than CAS.
What does CAS get out of this?Well,besides more,land,power,more backing from more of the big ten,and AA's,they get to rub this in the face of the UCAS.See, we did what you couldn't do.We are rebuilding America, and you are still sucking on you Canadian boy toy.
And by the way,ghost walker can sit and spin.As even if he kicks the CAS out of denver, big deal.The CAS would gain more from the PCC,land alone.
So if money rules nations,then the greedy would rather have money than love.
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