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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Area of Effect Elemental Manipulations
Posted by: Friggas Ring Jan 21 2004, 03:13 AM
Sorry if this is clearly written in the book, I'm at work and can't check. I've always wondered something about area of effect elemental manipulations. Let's say that I'm casting a 6 meter diameter fireball at a target at the end of the hall. Would a 6 meter diameter fireball appear before me and rocket down the hall toward my target (hitting things along the way if they were in the ball's path) or instead would an invisible force travel from me to the target and explode into the 6 meter diameter ball of flame?
My not-really-canon assumption would be the former and as long as nothing physically stopped the entire sphere (or at least the center of it) from reaching the target, it would burn up everything in it's path. Then again, I'm the kinda guy who says it could happen if it makes the scene cooler.
-fr
Posted by: toturi Jan 21 2004, 03:16 AM
The description could be anything BUT the effect is that the fireball detonates at your target and affecting everything in its blast radius.
I consider it as a magical grenade.
Posted by: Panzergeist Jan 21 2004, 03:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that the fireball is compressed to the size of a grenade until it hits the target. If a 6-meter radius, not diameter, fireball appeared a foot or less in front of your hand, well, you do the math.
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 21 2004, 06:25 AM
Yup, the guys above have it right. The elemental material is small while it travels from the magician to the target. At its destination "it affects targets in the area of effect in the same way as a physical explosion or grenade."
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 06:57 AM
that idea seems hinky, to me. i mean, if it's possible to dodge a fireball, shouldn't it be possible to block one with a held action? say, by shooting at it or throwing something at it?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2004, 07:06 AM
How do you effectively shoot a ball of fire?
Posted by: Zazen Jan 21 2004, 07:06 AM
Only inasmuch as it should be possible to block bullets, arrows, rockets, etc. with held actions. Shooting them seems a lot more hinky to me 
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 12:02 PM
i dunno. i just have this image of opening up on an armor-spelled mage, bullets spanging off everywhere--and then the mage toasting himself as his attempted fireball detonates against one of the incoming rounds, instead of the intended target.
but, regardless, elemental manips are described as travelling physically from the caster to the target. so, even if shooting doesn't work--what about slamming a door closed in front of the incoming spell? i guess the basic question i'm asking is, what happens when a caster doesn't detect an obstacle between himself and the target, when casting an elemental manip? does it just go off against the first obstacle it encounters? does the spell just fizzle?
Posted by: annachie Jan 21 2004, 12:09 PM
Actually you made me think of a suped up phys-ad with a baseball bat, but it does sound interesting.
Given the (aparent) speed of a spell, I would assume that slamming doors etc would be fluff about the spell missing the target or being dodged. Or even a possible mis-cast. ie: the door 3 meters in front of you closes as you cast your fireball. oops
Posted by: Xirces Jan 21 2004, 12:35 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i dunno. i just have this image of opening up on an armor-spelled mage, bullets spanging off everywhere--and then the mage toasting himself as his attempted fireball detonates against one of the incoming rounds, instead of the intended target. but, regardless, elemental manips are described as travelling physically from the caster to the target. so, even if shooting doesn't work--what about slamming a door closed in front of the incoming spell? i guess the basic question i'm asking is, what happens when a caster doesn't detect an obstacle between himself and the target, when casting an elemental manip? does it just go off against the first obstacle it encounters? does the spell just fizzle? |
This is covered by the "targeting via mirrors" and "targeting through transparent objects" debates - elemental manipulations can be (and are) blocked by anything between the caster and target. The effect is entirely on the physical plane and the resultant effect has to travel to the target. Closing a door is an entirely good way to deal with such spells, the door may not survive the fireball, but at least you will.
Posted by: mfb Jan 21 2004, 11:41 PM
right--but what if the door you close is a foot in front of the caster?
Posted by: Hasaku Jan 22 2004, 12:23 AM
If I was feeling generous I might reason as follows: The ball is guided by thought, which explains why you use your sorcery skill for the ranged combat test. It's logical to assume the ball is also detonated by thought. Therefore, if its path were interrupted, it might simply fizzle out without recieving the mental command to detonate from the caster.
The other 364 days of the year, I'd be serving up roasted mage.
Posted by: Panzergeist Jan 22 2004, 01:35 AM
Yes, you should be able to close a door with a held action. But if the door isn't made of carbon steel, the fireball will still blow it off the hinges, burning and crusing you. And if the mage is only a foot from the door, and you are close enough to close the door, and a fireball has a base radius of 6 meters, once again, do the math.
Posted by: Modesitt Jan 22 2004, 02:17 AM
| QUOTE |
| Yes, you should be able to close a door with a held action. But if the door isn't made of carbon steel, the fireball will still blow it off the hinges, burning and crusing you. And if the mage is only a foot from the door, and you are close enough to close the door, and a fireball has a base radius of 6 meters, once again, do the math. |
You may want to look these things up first. Fireballs don't neccessairily blow the doors off of their hinges. In fact, a starting level mage certainly can't do that trick.
For elemental manipulations, you use the normal barrier rating of an object for determining if it gets blown through. A regular door breaks open when its barrier rating has been reduced to 1/2 or less. For the sake of this, lets assume the doors most Shadowrunners are dealing with are equal to 'Average material'. What this means is that a relatively strong individual(Strength 4) can break it down in two, solid blows.
A 6<blank> fireball would hit an 'average material' of 4...and reduce the barrier rating by 1, in addition to make a 1/2 meter hole. The door has not been 'broken down', it is merely damaged. You'd need an 8<blank> fireball to blown open an average door with one hit.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2004, 03:56 AM
| QUOTE (Modesitt @ Jan 22 2004, 01:17 PM) |
| In fact, a starting level mage certainly can't do that trick. |
Can you tell me the difference between a 'starting level mage' and one with lots of experience, but not yet initiated, given that they both have 6s in Magic and Sorcery? According to some interpretations of canon, a 'starting level' mage can have a Force 8 Fireball spell.
What 'level' does a mage have to be where his fireballs do blow doors off their hinges?
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 22 2004, 04:09 AM
Fortune, please educate me. What rules can be interpreted to mean that a magician can start with a Force 8 spell?
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2004, 04:31 AM
Force 6 with the Exclusive modifier.
Posted by: Diesel Jan 22 2004, 04:59 AM
Grandfather Bones did it!
(I named my Guinea Pig that)
Posted by: Luke Hardison Jan 22 2004, 05:34 AM
I don't think that Doctor Bones was supposed to be a starting character.
| QUOTE |
| Starting full magicians may not have any spells, foci, or spirits higher than Force 6. In addition, a magician may not begin the game with more than 6 spirits, nor may any beginning spirit owe more than 6 services. |
SR3, p.55 sums it up, for me and my players at least.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 22 2004, 05:47 AM
Which, if you notice, is why I wrote 'some interpretations' instead of simply stating that it was canon.
A case could be made about the fact that the character would only be putting 6 spell points into the spell. IIRC, there is also an example in SR3 of this very thing.
Posted by: Modesitt Jan 22 2004, 05:51 AM
| QUOTE |
| Can you tell me the difference between a 'starting level mage' and one with lots of experience, but not yet initiated, given that they both have 6s in Magic and Sorcery? According to some interpretations of canon, a 'starting level' mage can have a Force 8 Fireball spell. What 'level' does a mage have to be where his fireballs do blow doors off their hinges? |
I don't care what their other skills are and have no intention of trying to codifying that. 'Starting level' in this context("starting level mage") means to me "A character whose magical skills and equipment are no greater than a character fresh out of creation according to standard creation rules".
| QUOTE ("Fortune") |
| Force 6 with the Exclusive modifier. |
| QUOTE ("OurTeam") |
| Fortune, please educate me. What rules can be interpreted to mean that a magician can start with a Force 8 spell? |
-If you think
| QUOTE ("p. 60 BBB) |
-Each Spell Point buys 1 Force Point. Also, each Spell Point equals 1 point of Karma for bonding purpses -You cannot purchase a spell, focus, or spirit at a Force higher than 6 |
Means that the amount of Spell Points you spend buying a spell determines the Force(And, by extension, rating) a spell counts as for the purposes of all limitations on what new characters can have...
Then yes, you can have a Force 8 spell fresh out of the gate. I don't ascribe to this interpretation on the grounds that is it still a Force 8 spell. Perhaps I should have added "One interpretation of the rules on the spells a new mage can possess allows a mage to blow up a door with one spell if he takes a Rating 8 spell as exclusive".
Edit: Bastard Fortune. I spend too much time proof reading my posts.
Posted by: mfb Jan 22 2004, 05:51 AM
doesn't have to be a door. could be anything--a thrown rock, a glass wall that's polished so clean as to be nearly invisible, a passing car, anything.
Posted by: Panzergeist Jan 22 2004, 04:53 PM
Actually, the SR3 cor rulebook specificly gives an example of a mage starting with a force 8 fireball spell. In the example, he takes the exclusive modifier to give it the drain of a force 6 spell. And, a starting mage could take a forc 8 spell without exclusive, it would just cause physical drain, which would be a really bad idea with an area of effect elemntal manipulation.
Posted by: JAG Jan 22 2004, 05:12 PM
Surely you could just have a lvl 2 power focus (or have I got my rules muddled again
Posted by: Reaver Jan 22 2004, 05:18 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| that idea seems hinky, to me. i mean, if it's possible to dodge a fireball, shouldn't it be possible to block one with a held action? say, by shooting at it or throwing something at it? |
They only way to effectively "block" a fireball spell would be to shield (absorb, reflect, etc.). Or, you have a freindly made in astral space with a held action enter into combat with the incoming spell and defeat/dispell it.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 05:56 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Force 6 with the Exclusive modifier. |
That was 2nd ed, when Exclusive or Fetish raised the effective force of the spell so you could learn a x force spell and cast it like an x+1 or x+2 force spell. In 3rd ed it was changed to only lower the drain code. So now you lean a spell at for X and test for drain as if it were an x-1, x-2, or x-3 force spell. Exclusive or Fetish doesn't even reduce the karma cost for the spell.
Believe me I went around with this my GM when I made my shaman. I was still operating on 2nd rules too. In 1st and 2nd ed you could make a mage with a lot more spells at a useful force by taking a force 2 spell and taking exclusive, fetish, or expendable fetish and bumping up the force one or two points. So for 20 force points you could get a good 10 force 4 spells out of the deal. Now you can only get 5 force five and unless you are taking spells with a force over your magic score or plan on slinging around a lot of high power magic without resting in between.
Read the example very closely and you will see the difference.
Posted by: Reaver Jan 22 2004, 06:00 PM
| QUOTE (sable twilight) | ||
That was 2nd ed, when Exclusive or Fetish raised the effective force of the spell so you could learn a x force spell and cast it like an x+1 or x+2 force spell. In 3rd ed it was changed to only lower the drain code. So now you lean a spell at for X and test for drain as if it were an x-1, x-2, or x-3 force spell. Exclusive or Fetish doesn't even reduce the karma cost for the spell. Believe me I went around with this my GM when I made my shaman. I was still operating on 2nd rules too. In 1st and 2nd ed you could make a mage with a lot more spells at a useful force by taking a force 2 spell and taking exclusive, fetish, or expendable fetish and bumping up the force one or two points. So for 20 force points you could get a good 10 force 4 spells out of the deal. Now you can only get 5 force five and unless you are taking spells with a force over your magic score or plan on slinging around a lot of high power magic without resting in between. Read the example very closely and you will see the difference. |
Unless of course you just keep the old rule as well as the new rule. I allow for either, but you have to chose which when you learn it.
Posted by: sable twilight Jan 22 2004, 06:47 PM
Then it makes the new rule worthless, since you can always lower the force you're casting the spell at.
Posted by: Modesitt Jan 22 2004, 06:50 PM
| QUOTE |
| Actually, the SR3 cor rulebook specificly gives an example of a mage starting with a force 8 fireball spell. In the example, he takes the exclusive modifier to give it the drain of a force 6 spell. |
The example on P. 181, BBB for fetishes is for a character learning a spell higher than their Magic rating after creation and deciding to limit it with a Fetish. You'll notice that 1. They refer to spending karma, not spell points. 2. They refer to rolling to learn a spell, something you don't do when deciding what spells your character starts with.
There are a lot of things you can spend karma and nuyen on after creation that you can't spend it on at creation. For example, I can't buy a Rating 7 Jammer or Rating 5 Maglock Passkey at creation, but if I've got the nuyen, sure, I can after creation. The example is for doing something post-creation that you do not have to deal with at creation - Rolling for spells and making it even clearer that yes, after you're out in the world and racking up karma, you can buy a spell at a Force higher than your magic if you really want to.
| QUOTE (Panzergeist) |
| And, a starting mage could take a forc 8 spell without exclusive, it would just cause physical drain, which would be a really bad idea with an area of effect elemntal manipulation. |
| QUOTE (SR3 @ p. 60 and my last post) |
-You cannot purchase a spell, focus, or spirit at a Force higher than 6 |
I'm not disputing you can spend Karma after that first run or whatnot to learn a spell higher than your Magic. If I have made it seem like I was disagreeing with the ability to do that, I didn't intend to.
If what you are trying to say is "The example Street Mage in the BBB could have had a Force 8 Manabolt listed on her sheet if she scrounged up 2 spell points AND without making it exclusive"...Well, I have to say I have no clue where you're getting that from. Clarification?
Oh. As I'm hijacking the thread, I may as well make a token effort to use the topic at hand in a post. I'm in the "Elemental manipulations actually travel from you to your target in the physical realm and yes, hitting glass will make it go boom-boom and potentially ruin your day." camp as the rules do say physical obstacles block them. You can also dodge them, so logically you need some sort of way of detecting it, whether it be auditory, visual, or some other sense,
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 22 2004, 07:07 PM
| QUOTE (JAG) |
| Surely you could just have a lvl 2 power focus (or have I got my rules muddled again |
A rating 2 power focus gives the caster 2 more dice, but doesn't raise the force of the spell. For breaking through a barrier the force of the spell is important.
Posted by: annachie Jan 22 2004, 08:15 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| doesn't have to be a door. could be anything--a thrown rock, a glass wall that's polished so clean as to be nearly invisible, a passing car, anything. |
I've seen enough pictures of birds perfectly blocking the license plate in speed camera photo's.
Depending on the GM's reason for doing it, the posibilities are endless.
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