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Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 02:07 AM

I was just wondering what people knew about the dragon Charcoalgrin in relation to Shadowrun. I know what's been said in the Book of Dragons from Earthdawn, but I'd heard that she was thought to be "still around."
I can't even find a good physical description of her!
Help would be appreciated. ^_^

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 02:32 AM

And I most certainly should have posted this in the "Dragons" subforum, except I was being an idiot.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 24 2004, 02:33 AM

Go bug AnHi. That's his gig. But I don't think she's ever been mentioned. Of course, that's not to say she's not out there lurking about in the shadows as it were.

Posted by: 252 Jan 24 2004, 02:57 AM

There are people who think that she is Hestaby or Orange Queen. I'm not sure if that is true or not.



I have returned!

Posted by: 252 Jan 24 2004, 03:00 AM

This is stupid of me for not placing what evidence I have,

Charcoalgrin was considered an adult dragon in the Earthdawn era, this could allow her to grow into a great dragon by the sixth age.

She also is somewhat isolated which seems very much the same as Hestaby.

There are other things, however I would like to also hear what others have to say, and I have to look my other things up so that I can say them right.

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 24 2004, 03:37 AM

Not much to say. Her nickname comes from a black swath around her mouth, during the Scourge she laired in the Caucavic mountains, her sire was possibly active during the previous Age of magic.

Posted by: Phaeton Jan 24 2004, 03:42 AM

...Sorry to be an off-topic idiot, but k1tsune?...Your sig reminds me way too much of our group's resident Cat Shaman...I burst out silently laughing when I first read it.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 03:42 AM

What's her base color?

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 24 2004, 03:44 AM

I don't believe it has ever been printed. Hell, I can't quite remember where I heard the thing about her nickname. 's been a while.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 03:45 AM

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 04:45 AM

Hm.. "Charcoalgrin" and "Dunkelzahn." I know that they're different dragons, but I wonder if there's a reason they took similar names?

Posted by: Phaeton Jan 24 2004, 04:47 AM

Probably. Although I don't really question dragons or the like. I play the mundane, cybered, non-Awakened aspect of Shadowrun, and only recently have contemplated seriously making a magic user of any sort.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 24 2004, 04:48 AM

Um, similar? Dunkelzahn is German for Darktooth. Not quite sure how the two compare.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 04:49 AM

Posted by: Phaeton Jan 24 2004, 04:56 AM

...Brother and sister?

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 04:58 AM

My brain went dead. What was Dunkie's old name?

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 24 2004, 05:04 AM

Mountainshadow IIRC.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 05:11 AM

Posted by: cykotek Jan 24 2004, 09:41 AM

it's my understanding that Dunkelzahn (i.e., darktooth) was the name of Mountainshadow's human aid during the ED time period. It's possible that the whole Darktooth-Charcoalgrin similarity is nothing more than coincidence when that is considered.

Though why a great dragon would take the name of a human servant dead these past thousand+ years is another question.

Posted by: Nath Jan 24 2004, 01:25 PM

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 24 2004, 02:50 PM

Charcoalgrin may have been raised by Mountainshadow/Dunkelzahn, but her age is such she could also have been raised by a dragon that was raised by Dunkelzahn that then became a Great Dragon. DUnkie's pretty damn old.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 24 2004, 03:07 PM

Yeah. That's true. She was "just an adult" at the end of the Earthdawn era...

Posted by: 252 Jan 24 2004, 07:28 PM

I think the "earthdawn age" is somewhere a bit beyond half through the forth age. Still quite high magicly.

I'm trying to remember if there is much of a true understanding how long an age is. I know there has been some speculation. Even in the Sourcebooks, just trying to primarily figure out which ones. I think it was in Aztlan, where they were talking about the Mayan and Aztek calenders.

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 24 2004, 07:39 PM

An age is roughly 5,000 years, with the Scourge starting approximately at the 2,100 mark and lasting until about the 2,900 mark. More or less.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 24 2004, 08:58 PM

Although didn't the Therans mess about with how long it lasted last time or something? Granted it probably wouldn't have much relevance for this discussion though.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 24 2004, 10:23 PM

Some excessive Theran magics tried to sustain the mana level between "death roams" and "physical drain on everything".

That may have disrupted the cycle. GGD and other early use of gratuitous magic also may have provided some disruption. The 6th age may be zooming into high magic faster than any age since the cycle was generated. No solid declaration of that though.

Posted by: k1tsune Jan 25 2004, 09:31 PM

Well... There have been quite a few cannon sources for those connected with the spirit world being panicked because "It's happening too soon..."

Posted by: mfb Jan 26 2004, 07:09 AM

only because, as i understand it, stupid humans keep trying to make it happen ahead of schedule. unless i'm very badly mistaken, dunk put an end to that sort of nonsense in the dragonheart trilogy; the scourge should be back on schedule.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 07:32 AM

Though it will only get easier to disrupt the schedule as time goes by...

~J

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 26 2004, 07:35 AM

If the Theran rituals compounded with the acts of massive magic in the sixth age, then Dunkie's efforts will only buy a few decades. A century or two if no one else tries any big magic.

Posted by: mfb Jan 26 2004, 07:45 AM

i don't see why. i don't see how a few rituals, however powerful, could advance 'the schedule' by more than two millennia.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 07:54 AM

Tell that to Oscuro.

~J

Posted by: Ancient History Jan 26 2004, 12:57 PM

The Horrors need a certain level of magic (fairly high) to enter our plane, and another level of magic (lower. Way lower if they just want to kick around the astral.) to sustain themselves.

Darke's whole bag of tricks depended on using the mana spike from the Great Ghost Dance, which was (give or take) 1,000 years more advanced than should have been performed, and created a spike accordingly. His rituals used that Spike to build a bridge toward the Horrors, just as they built a bridge toward the Spike.

Now, no more Spike. We should be fine, except for a few that get summoned early and maybe a bit earlier around Tir na nOg.