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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ the gun's too big for me

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 24 2004, 04:21 AM

ok, the other gun thread got me thinking. How many of you actually think about the gun you charatcer holds or do you just go for the desert eagle, I mean predator II becasue of the standard clip and link?

My main character has a small revolver, colt Asp as her public, licenced gun, but has a colt manhunter for runs. big gun, goes boom. BUT when I look at my hands with guns, assuming I'm roughly the same size, there's no way i could do this.

In the game, no problem, I take out the manhunter and booom boom boom. in RL I am very comfortable with a Webly heavy revolver (.455) but a magnum is a joke in my hands. I don't like the balance of a browning so most heavy pistols are out.
With light guns a barretta cheetah has a smaller frame than a comperable Taurus, but the taurus has a smaller grip, easier for a woman's small hand. This has all made me think about my character's weapons.

More than just encumberance would I use any sort of MG or would the recoil be too intimidating

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 24 2004, 04:28 AM

I would assume that if you have small hands you can get a wonder-10 or a 1911 with a single column magazine that will fit ok. With modern guns like the M-16/AK or M249/RPD the felt recoil is pretty low, it's the weigth of the gun + ammo (in addition to all you other gear) that is the problem. If you are on a 'standard' run, then you don't have that much 'other gear' (dude, leave your NVGs we'll be back in 30 minutes ) so the weight of a SAW + 500 rounds or so might not be too bad...

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 04:43 AM

QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

With modern guns like the [...] M249/RPD the felt recoil is pretty low [...]

Exactly. I've always wondered what's with the whole "MG = Punishing Recoil" legend. LMGs in general have far lower recoil (felt and actual) than ARs. MMGs compare similarly to battle rifles (though I suppose that might still be a bit too much recoil for many purposes).

There are currently 2 rather large humans with Str6 each in my group, and they've got an OICW-lookalike and a LMG as their main weapons -- none too big in my opinion. The last PC is a Str4 larger-than-average dwarf who's got a CAWS-lookalike on principle, sort of a 2060s battleaxe.

There used to be an average-sized female human with Str3 in the group, who had the biggest damn handgun available (S&W500-lookalike...). She only fired it ... ~10 times, I think, and role-played the recoil quite well. Since it's a revolver, grip size wouldn't have been a problem, although weight and balance issues might have.

Because I've got rather small hands for an average-height human male and I can handle a Desert Eagle just fine (a real-size replica, I've never seen a real DE), I generally don't enforce these things as a GM. I make sure my players understand that carrying around, at the ready, a very heavy weapon with a low Strength for extended periods of time isn't a good idea, so they haven't really tried.

I haven't even enforced penalties for dwarves firing human-sized long arms until now, but I think I will from here on.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 24 2004, 04:49 AM

The XM8 is supposed to have multiple stock positions, both for portability and different arm lengths I would assume that the 'Matel' guns of 2060 will be similar.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 05:01 AM

End-user customizable enough to be easily handled by humans with rather short arms, sure. Problems might occur with bullpup weapons (the G11 and OICW look like they might cause trouble for smaller people) and some machine guns (with the recoil spring-thing assembly running all the way through the butt-stock). And dwarves would still have a lot of trouble.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 24 2004, 09:28 AM

I generally wouldn't give a light pistol to any character, unless that character was extremely inexperienced with firearms - a sheltered corporate or academic type. Light pistols are so useless under the current rules that I assume any character I make with a decent skill would know this.

For heavy pistols, I take the personality of the character in mind. The Predator guns are for either people who use guns to intimidate, or people who like using ubituous guns that can be bought anywhere and easily disposed of. The Colt Manhunter is for people who are from the streets or the wilderness, and want a gun that performs reliably and has a decent-sized clip. The Brownings or Morrissey Alta are for corporate types, or people concerned about concealability. The Morrissey Elite is not good in a sustained firefight - it is for people who use a gun as a last resort self-defence, but still want it to be effective. The Viper is for infiltrators, assassins, and places where you're not expecting a lot of body armor. Sometimes, the character will use the gun more for personality than for role (the decker with pistols: 2 who picks a Predator because it's the biggest and baddest gun, the pimp who picks the Alta because it's stylish and expensive-looking, etc.).

Posted by: Liquid_Obsidian Jan 24 2004, 11:02 AM

the viper is an urbal mithos , i Never EVER allow it
it's even rayed in my BBB

Posted by: Siege Jan 24 2004, 01:18 PM

Are you kidding? I've seen a DE on the range and the damn thing made my eyeballs pulse from three stalls down.

The guy using it was twice my size and he still had to kneel and grip it with both hands.

As to the original question -- not really. I tend to pick weapons that fit the characters, although the weapons in SR don't reflect the RL nuances to properly make those choices.

I tend to lean towards a Colt Manhunter for personal taste. If I have to carry something lighter, it's not worth the effort of hauling the dead weight around.

-Siege

Edit: And a Savalette Guardian when I expect to be on a run requiring firepower.

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 24 2004, 01:52 PM

Austere Emancipator, Siege:

Until about 15 years ago, I owned a Desert Eagle (A Mark I, one of the original, Israeli-made models). It was a .357 Magnum, although I later purchased the .44 Magnum conversion kit.

The gun was ALMOST too big for me (IRL, I'm 5'6, about 200 pounds (YES, I ADMIT it, I need to go on a diet! And I HAVE!)), and have, I think, average- sized hands for someone that size. (For example, my Dad isn't much bigger than I am (we can look each other in the eye), but his hands are quite a bit larger than mine.) Anyway, I was barely able to make the tips of my thumb and middle finger touch around the DE's grip.

The gun was controllable, even using the .44 conversion unit with full-power factory ammunition, or equivalent handloads. It was the muzzle blast and the associated noise that I couldn't handle. I eventually sold the whole setup, and bought a gun with which I was more comfortable--a Browning High-Power 9mm Parabellum. Even with loads that approach the .357 Magnum power-wise, that handgun is nowhere near as intimidating to shoot as the Desert Eagle was.

My character in SR, as some of you know, is quite a bit larger than I myself am ("The Foreigner", in the comics, is 6' 2" tall, and weighs either 180 or 240 pounds, depending upon which source you consult--THE OFFICIAL HANDBOOK OF THE MARVEL UNIVERSE, DELUXE EDITION (December, 1986--December, 1989) and MASTER EDITION (December, 1990--November, 1993), claim the former stats, but THE MARVEL ENCYLOPEDIA, Volume 4 (2003), claims the latter height/weight as correct). My version of "The Foreigner" stands just shy of 2 meters tall (he's 6' 6") and weighs between 130 and 150 kilos (about 300 to 330 pounds)--just slightly larger than the average adult male Ork (6'3" tall, 280 pounds), and well above the average (at least twice the size of, at any rate) for a male Human (5' 7", 150 lbs.), if you use the revised height/weight rules postulated by Patrick Goodman in his article, "How Much Did You Say He Weighed?", in Issue #13 of THE SHADOWRUN SUPPLEMENTAL. Currently, he carries a Morrissey Alta Heavy Pistol (as decided by Sahandrian, our group's GM), but I may change that at some point. Only time will tell, as the saying goes.

Incidentally, Siege, what you said about the Desert Eagle making your "...eyeballs pulse from three stalls down..." reminds me of a similar experience my brother reported happening to an acquaintance of his. The gent in question was breaking in a new .22-caliber pistol (I don't recall the make or model) at the time. Anyway, he'd just put up a new target at an indoor range, and sent it out to about 25 yards.

Unbeknownst to him, the fellow in the next shooting position is also getting ready to start breaking in his new pistol--only this guy's weapon of choice is a TAURUS RAGING BULL in .454 Casull.

Anyway, at the EXACT moment the guy with the .22 fires a shot, the fellow with the .454 Casull does likewise. The .22 owner blinks a moment from the concussion, then pauses to look at his own pistol, as if uncertain whether or not it was functioning properly, or if he was merely experiencing an auditory hallucination. At this point, the guy with the TAURUS RAGING BULL (please excuse the caps, but the shooting industry magazines *always* print it this way) touches off another shot.

Now realizing that there is, in fact, nothing wrong with his pistol, the owner of the .22 indulges in a brief moment of semi-insane laughter (more like an hysterical giggle fit, I think) before resuming his target practice.

--Foreigner

Posted by: Hot Wheels Jan 24 2004, 03:00 PM

lol, that sounds almost like a comedy routine.
I think the myth of the punishing mg recoil comes from men with more macho than brains. Every now and then you get some tV reporter going to a miltary camp and getting to play with the toys. Male reporters getting behind and mg usually complain, women reporters listen to the instructors and really dig in with the stock and hodl it properly. Implied the male reporters try to be Rambo and find out why the professionals hold it so steady.

Posted by: JackWill Jan 24 2004, 04:32 PM

Yeah my self.. i have shot almost every handgun once and in every caliber... .22 .32 .357 .380 .40 .45 .50 9mm 10mm and non of them are too itemidating.. the .50 and .45 are a bit big for a hand gun to me.. i like the 9mm but i persoanlly liket he grips on berettas.. noe the other side of the boat.. i have fired ever Major AR out there.. to and the only complications i had was the FNFAL it was heavy! that thing ways a ton. it makes your forearms sore!

Posted by: Diesel Jan 24 2004, 04:45 PM

Wow, dude, hit the spellchecker or the shift key once in a while.

On-topic: I don't like big guns, and I don't like the SW50 most of all. That thing kicks hard enough that I almost fire twice. Uncool. Mostly because I have squishy hands.

Posted by: Catsnightmare Jan 24 2004, 04:45 PM

Well Snow Fox, from an in-game point of view the Manhunter shouldn't be a problem for your char. After all it was designed by a woman to begin with.

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 24 2004, 04:59 PM

Indeed, Hot Wheels.

Reminds me of one of A&E's news specials.

Their intrepid reporter, Joan Lunden, went to an Army camp to play soldier. (If there are any real-life Army or Marine personnel lurking here, I apologize in advance for my remarks, but you shall soon see that they're accurate in her case.)

She barely qualified as "Marksman" ("Markswoman"?), the LOWEST ranking on the military scale of "Marksman" (168 or fewer points out of a possible 200), "Sharpshooter" (169 to 178 points out of a possible 200), and "Expert" (179 to 188 points out of a possible 200) with the M-16A2 and the service automatic--I forget what it was at the time, either the M-9 (Beretta M-92F) or the M-11 (SIG-Sauer P-228).

The most ridiculous part was when she attempted to use the Browning M-2HB .50-caliber Heavy Machine Gun mounted atop an M-1A2 Abrams tank. This is an 84-pound weapon (not counting the ammo box and 100-round belt, which together add another 20 pounds or so, 12.5 of which is the ammunition) which measures just over five and one-half feet in length (68.1 inches, to be exact, according to SMALL ARMS OF THE WORLD, Eleventh Edition, by E.C. Ezell).

The tank itself weighs another 69.5 TONS.

After the tank commander showed her how to do it right, Ms. Lunden engaged a man-sized silhouette target A MERE 100 METERS AWAY--and MISSED WITH THE ENTIRE BELT!

Amateurs...

--Foreigner

Posted by: Arethusa Jan 24 2004, 05:01 PM

Yes! And, if a handgun is designed by a woman, all women everywhere can use it!

Seriously, don't roleplay your guns. I appreciate the approach to roleplaying, and hell, am personally quite fond of roleplaying minutia like that, but the fact remains that the canon guns are just fucking silly. When almost none of the heavy pistols appear to be built smaller or lighter than a Desert Eagle, you either need to rewrite the stats or ignore the stupidity, but don't read more reality into it than it can handle.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 05:50 PM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

Seriously, don't roleplay your guns [because] canon guns are just fucking silly.

Then I suppose you wouldn't have a problem with roleplaying your guns in a game where the weapons do make sense?

The gaming group can, of course, decide that some of the canon weapons look like this and some look like that, regardless of what the books say. I think there are quite a few people who house rule the weights of many of the guns, so "house ruling" the size too (which is mostly fluff in any case) shouldn't be a real issue. And then roleplaying the guns starts making sense again.

QUOTE (Foreigner)

After the tank commander showed her how to do it right, Ms. Lunden engaged a man-sized silhouette target a mere 100 meters away--and missed with the entire belt!

She-it. Stupid stingy FDF, we never even got to fire a total of 100 rounds with the similar AAMG, and the instructors would've ripped us a new one had we missed the target barrels at 500 or 1000 meters with 3 consecutive shots.

QUOTE (Hot Wheels)

I think the myth of the punishing mg recoil comes from men with more macho than brains.

That might well be true, though I'd wager it comes more from the general habit in all medias (especially movies) to portray all guns more powerful in a direct relation to their weight and size than from male TV reporters specifically.

Posted by: Hot Wheels Jan 24 2004, 06:57 PM

Joan Lundun is a complete waste of space. I dispise her.
Sure we shouldn't gop too far, but there is an element of realism to help. If I play an ork I'm going to having bigger hands than a human. A troll with a hold out will look damn silly. An angry troll- scary. An angry troll whose hand is swallowing a .22 is well, weird.

Posted by: Arethusa Jan 24 2004, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 24 2004 @ 05:50 PM)

Then I suppose you wouldn't have a problem with roleplaying your guns in a game where the weapons do make sense?

I would not, actually. I Like roleplaying details, and I find immersion one of biggest and most unfortunate casualties of the common Realism Is Evil And Unfun/Abstract Now approach. I just find it difficult to simply house rule size when heavy pistols can't be small at their capacity, in most cases— and, for something like a Predator, are the size of a small submachinegun or carbine.

QUOTE (Hot Wheels @ Jan 24 2004 @ 06:57 PM)

Sure we shouldn't gop too far, but there is an element of realism to help. If I play an woman I'm going to having bigger hands than a human.

I seriously have not the slightest clue what you're saying.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 07:46 PM

The Ares Predators in my games fire 10mm Auto. The standard magazine holds 12 rounds. Not the size of a submachine gun or a carbine. The grip is still rather wide, but none worse than what you get on double column .45ACPs, which AFAIK can be rather easily handled by most people. I'd call my method of house ruling size (ie remaking the whole weapon list) simple, and I happen to think the weapons in my games make sense.

I think what Hot Wheels meant was "Sure we shouldn't go too far, but the element of realism might help. If I play a troll [troll woman?] I'm going to have bigger hands than a human."

Posted by: Hot Wheels Jan 24 2004, 08:37 PM

sorry I corrected that I tried to write "Ork woman" then realized it would go for any ork so meant to erase "woman" but took out "ork"

Posted by: Fortune Jan 25 2004, 12:20 AM

QUOTE (Foreigner)

..."Marksman" (168 or fewer points out of a possible 200), "Sharpshooter" (169 to 178 points out of a possible 200), and "Expert" (179 to 188 points out of a possible 200)...

What's the title for someone that shoots between 188 and 200? Is the title different if someone consistantly scores 200?

Posted by: Diesel Jan 25 2004, 12:51 AM

I think he lined them up wrong a tiny little bit.

It should be fail, marksman, sharpshooter, expert. I'm not sure about the numbers though. And I don't think so, maybe "kickass".

Posted by: Arethusa Jan 25 2004, 02:26 AM

Well, either Kickass or Send This Kid to Delta. Hard to say.

Anyway, the fact remains that a Predator has the same concealability rating as a small carbine or an SMG. Sure, can house rule that out, but the wacky ass concealability rating problem runs across all of the guns (the SMGs are particularly fun). Not that I disagree with just rewriting a lot of the weapons stats, and hell, I don't really think that it's as difficult as people often claim, but fact remains that there's no elegant way to roleplay this stuff per canon.

Posted by: Siege Jan 25 2004, 04:27 AM

The Predator is probably about the same size as the HK Expert/Tactical/new spec-op weapon.

I've got a Sig 220 that holds 7 - 8 rounds and it fits quite nicely in my hand.

I hate to imagine how big the HK must be to squeeze in 12 rounds.

And while I've never handled a MG of any caliber, I hate to admit that I probably couldn't have done any better my first time up.

-Siege

Posted by: Raygun Jan 25 2004, 10:17 AM

"Oh, you know, it's a toolbox. I don't care. You put the tools in for the job, that's all. You know, I actually favor the old 1911." -Sam

QUOTE (Siege)

Are you kidding? I've seen a DE on the range and the damn thing made my eyeballs pulse from three stalls down.

That sounds familiar. My first experience with a DE50 went like this: *happily popping away in my own lane with something normal* Pop. Pop. Pop. BOOM! *startled* "Jesus Christ!" BOOM! "What the hell is that?" *unload and look around the lane divider* BOOM! "I have to check this out..." It was in the middle of the afternoon on like a tuesday at an indoor range and I thought I was the only person there.

You should try an S&W 500 now. Makes a DE50 sound (and feel) like something only slightly respectable. It's so stupidly loud and powerful...

QUOTE

I hate to imagine how big the HK must be to squeeze in 12 rounds.

According to Gun Tests magazine, the grip thickness (1.3") and circumference (6.0") on the HK USP45 Expert/Elite/Tactical is exactly the same as your P220. Gotta love polymer frames.

Posted by: Siege Jan 25 2004, 01:37 PM

Really? I was under the impression the HK was significantly larger as some troops were grumbling about the size.

Oops, my bad.

-Siege

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 25 2004, 02:19 PM

Sorry, my bad.

I should have mentioned that the point scale I was using was the one that the various sanctioning bodies use to determine proficiency in Highpower Rifle competition.

However, I believe, although I am not certain, that the various U.S. Armed Forces follow a similar point scale in their rankings--however, the "Expert" qualification is as high as they go. A soldier/sailor/Marine might score better than 178 points out of 200 (94%), but he or she won't receive any special recognition for it, beyond possibly being recruited for training as a sniper.

In Highpower competition, however, there are two additional rankings:

"Master", who scores between 188 and 194 points out of 200 (94% to 97%);
and

"High Master", who scores better than 194 points (97% or better).

Hope this answers everyone's questions--especially Fortune's.

--Foreigner

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 25 2004, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

I was under the impression the HK was significantly larger as some troops were grumbling about the size.

Perhaps you mixed it up with the grumbling about the Mark 23 Mod 0 SOCOM pistol. I think that was largely due to the weight and overall size, and not just about the width of the grip.

Posted by: Siege Jan 25 2004, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (Siege)

I was under the impression the HK was significantly larger as some troops were grumbling about the size.

Perhaps you mixed it up with the grumbling about the Mark 23 Mod 0 SOCOM pistol. I think that was largely due to the weight and overall size, and not just about the width of the grip.

Ya know, that's distinctly possible.

-Siege

Posted by: Lindt Jan 25 2004, 05:21 PM

Having only had the oppertunity to fire a .22 long cal browning pistol, and a 12 guage Remmey, I must say that the little tiny gun was more diffucult to fire for long periods of time then the 8 lb shotgun. Just the weight of the .22 (I swear next to nothing compaired to the 7 rounds it carried) was difficult to control. 2 quick shots from the 12 guage are easy, but just a pair are tough to keep in the black with the pistol.

Posted by: lodestar Jan 25 2004, 06:36 PM

I always try to play up the gun in our SR games occasionally to the annoyance of the GM. I never just shoot the Super Warhawk - Imagine the camera zoom in, time slows as the hammer comes back and the cylinder rotates another Federal Black Talon into place. BOOM A flash of flame and deafening shock....

Oh sorry where was I. I don't have much experience with pistols just a few .38 and .22 revolvers. I can see the double recoil mods for shotguns though. A buddy of mine once constructed a sawed off scattergun (don't ask) which he thought it would be cool to fire pistol style. The recoil shattered a buch of bones in his wrist and fore arm. You might be a Redneck...

Posted by: Siege Jan 25 2004, 07:18 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

When you were firing the .22, where did you start to hurt? Your shoulders?

-Siege

Posted by: Fortune Jan 26 2004, 12:12 AM

QUOTE (Foreigner)

Hope this answers everyone's questions--especially Fortune's.

Yep, thanks.

I assume when you wrote '178' that you actually mean '188'.

Posted by: Tiralee Jan 26 2004, 09:06 AM

My gunbunny uses the usual Ares Predator/Colt Manhunter combo, but she carries a Ruger Warhawk (EX-Explosive rounds) in/on her bike as the "Anit-carjacking" weapon of choice.

It's not just that it will blow a fist-sized hole through a troll, it's not just that she's got sufficient skill to use it and keep on using it, it's because of the intimidation factor.

Ok, the last thing you want, when trying to mimic all those moves made by your peers in an action like this, is to have the small, pretty woman driving the car suddenly produce a gun bigger than your head and blow off your right leg.

Apart from a short and eventful life, the wanna-be carjacker has just improved the street reputaion of the pretty woman a little further, hoepfully dissuading the less desperate into looking for easier targets.

Not to mention that a gun that big wakes the neigbhours, as do the screams....

Long story short - if it's realism you want, ok. But people come in so many different sizes that it's not that big an ask for the guy behind the counter at "Weapons World" to get you a pair of smaller grips for your Predator.

L:

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 26 2004, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (Tiralee)

it's not that big an ask for the guy behind the counter at "Weapons World" to get you a pair of smaller grips for your Predator.

With a pistol, there's not much you can do to make the grips smaller. The magazine is housed inside, so unless you are willing to reduce the magazine capacity significantly (going from double column to single column, probably from 15 to 9 or 8), the grip size stays the same for most intents and purposes. And with pistols that fire very long cartridges from a single column magazine (like the Desert Eagle) there's nothing to be done -- if you've got very small hands, you just can't handle it properly.

But if you don't house rule anything about the guns, then this doesn't matter. For all we know, the Predators fire 6x30mm caseless ammunition from a "snail" magazine and have a 1.5kg lead weight hanging from under the barrel...

Posted by: Foreigner Jan 26 2004, 05:27 PM

You're right, Fortune.

Sorry about that.

BTW: I've edited the original post to correct that error.

--Foreigner

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 05:43 PM

I typically roleplay out things like this, but that's because I have a tendency to do things that demand it, like give an Otaku a sawed-off shotgun or a 12-year-old kid a Browning Max-Power. For a normal adult runner, I won't usually think to do it, probably a result of the bias of a 5'11" 160lb male with slightly larger-than-average hands.

~J

Posted by: Kesh Jan 26 2004, 08:05 PM

Most of my characters are magic types or deckers, and don't get into the front lines. Thus, they usually end up with some combination of these:

1) A shotgun, either a plain ol' Roomsweeper or a rull combat shotgun
2) A heavy pistol, either fully Smartlinked or just with a laser sight
3) A light pistol, like a Fichetti 500a, as a backup weapon
4) If heavy combat is really a problem, an SMG of some type

Most of the time, I just pack a Roomsweeper and a Fichetti for my chars. If they're a mage/shaman, their spells are their primary firepower. If a decker... well, he's a paper target anyway, so he stays out of the line of fire.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 31 2004, 04:57 AM

In theory the lighter gun should cause more discomfort because there's less in it to absorb recoil, meaning it has to go somewhere-like into your body. A colt American is going to fire a smaller bullet than a manhunter but the smaller mass of the gun will mean that there's less to absorb recoil.
This can be offset by better craftsmanship
In RL you can see this in comparing Baretta and Taurus .380's The better quality Italian gun is smaller than the Brazillian Taurus, but oddly enough the grip is a little wider. but this is going to a point well beyond the rule's play.