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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Be your own homunculus

Posted by: Munchkinslayer Jan 24 2004, 05:47 AM

I'm lookin' at a D&D book, and they've got these guys called Acolytes of the Skin. These fruit-pies bond a demon to their own hide, eventually becoming one with it. It grants them various abilities, of course.

So this makes me think can you make an ally of yourself? You can't put an ally spirit into a sapient being, but you can put it into a statue. But does it have to be a statue? Could it be liquid? Like tattoo ink maybe?

Posted by: toturi Jan 24 2004, 05:49 AM

Had a T1000 homunculus once in my game...

Posted by: FlakJacket Jan 24 2004, 06:40 AM

QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)

So this makes me think can you make an ally of yourself? You can't put an ally spirit into a sapient being, but you can put it into a statue. But does it have to be a statue? Could it be liquid? Like tattoo ink maybe?

Possibly. But then they're going to be tied to you all the time and lose a lot of their utility for no real benefit. Although it would be interesting to see if they ever won control and went free. IIRC, you can have a free spirit stick their Hidden Life into a metahuman- severely fucking them up in the process- but you do get the nifty powers along with going completely whacko.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 06:44 AM

I don't think tatoo ink would work, because the inhabit passage states that the homonculus moves in a manor consistent with the material. This might have some cool Venom (from Marvel Comics) effects, but I don't think that is the effect you're looking for. I would allow something like bone lacing to be the focus in my campain, because you would have to reduce your magic rating to gain those benefits.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 24 2004, 06:48 AM

Did you commit suicide again AE?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 06:50 AM

Naw mate, and I think my name would still be synonymous.

(In my current state of mind, that actually caused me to stop and think for a while...)

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 06:52 AM

you could instead makeone of the forms the spirit can materialize as into a formfitting body armor. This would only give you the benefit of 3D movement, but I don't think you'd get anything else any other way, accept when channeling.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jan 24 2004, 07:02 AM

Recent studies have revealed my pants to be strong, fierce, and powerful.

You might be better of finding out what the player wants to accomplish with this and see if you can house rule an alternate ally that does it.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 11:44 AM

materialized ally spirits also have immunity to normal weapons power. If wearing them as armor, that armor should provide you with the same protection in the areas it covers (your entire body in the case of form-fitting full body armor)

Posted by: Lilt Jan 24 2004, 12:19 PM

Not quite, the immunity to normal weapons power is often explained as the fact that damage done by bullets does not affect someone. Essentially the damage done to the physical form isn't actually done to the spirit, but in by no means says that the physical form remains completely intact.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 07:14 PM

the power gives an armor rating based on essence. Bullets over a certain power rating effect the spirit (SR3 264).
Are you trying to say that the bullets UNDER a certain power pass right through the thing, but bullets over a certain power will damage it? If you are, I'd have to disagree. How would it descriminate? The same bullet, fired in burst fire mode, would suddenly have an effect, when the same bullet would normally pass right through.

Posted by: Dissonance Jan 24 2004, 07:29 PM

Y'know, houngans have the power of self-possession. +force to all physical atts, with the downside being that you can't remember a damn thing afterwards.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 07:32 PM

So you'd say a Force-5 Fire or Air Elemental that is shot at with a HMG (a single shot) simply stops the bullet in midair before it hits the elemental? Or that HMG rounds fired at a vampire don't even prick its skin if the Immunity is still at rating 10 or more?

I think what Lilt it saying, and what makes most sense, is that the bullets would pass through the material of the homonculous (or any other physical form with Immunity to Normal Weapons) just like they would if there wasn't a spirit there, but the spirit only takes damage from that if the base Power of the attack is greater than the rating of the Immunity.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 07:35 PM

Thinking about it more, I'd have to agree. (Homonculi don't get the power, only the materialised spirit)

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 07:36 PM

I'm not very good with the magic, and especially conjuring, rules. I'm far better with making sense.

Posted by: Dissonance Jan 24 2004, 07:39 PM

What about one with a really high barrier rating?

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 07:44 PM

Although, I've never heard any reference to parts of a body going astral (the only game mechanic I can think of to explain the effect.) Or to a whole body going astral for that matter. If you're think of something like regeneration, there are already rules for that. And since armor piercing weapon act like normal bullets, I'd say that they must pierce something.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 24 2004, 08:00 PM

Actually, APDS ammunition not getting the penetration bonus against the virtual armor provided by Immunity looks to me like further proof that the Immunity isn't about what you penetrate, but more about how massive damage you cause.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 09:21 PM

I suppose it doesn't matter. If it were my campain, I'd go with your ideas to maintian the balance.

Posted by: DamienKnight Jan 24 2004, 09:28 PM

QUOTE (toturi)

Had a T1000 homunculus once in my game...

I thought magic and tech didnt mix well? Joker tried that Cyber-Homonculus idea on me and slapped it down. Maybe it could happen, but there would have to be a test roll with super high target numbers.

Spirits manifesting as armor? Wow, sounds like people are really trying to pimp the system

Posted by: DamienKnight Jan 24 2004, 10:03 PM

QUOTE (Zimbabwean Aardvark)

I would allow something like bone lacing to be the focus in my campain, because you would have to reduce your magic rating to gain those benefits.

This sounds reasonable, and I think one of my characters wants to do it. Here is the question:

When someone targets an attack at the player, is there damage resistance equal to their body +2 for titanium bone lacing

or is it

their body +2 for titanium bone lacing, + the force of the spirit.

It seems like the power of the spirit would factor in somewhat, but all attacks dont target the bones, and the bones are technically the only place the spirit would help in damage resistance.

Maybe I should comprimise and use

Their body +2 for tit bone lace, + 1/2 the spirits force

to represent the chance that bones would be affected. What are your thoughts?

Posted by: DamienKnight Jan 24 2004, 10:15 PM

HO ho ho, woah wait a minute!!!

The answer has just smacked me on the @$$!

According to the Magic in the Shadows book, a homunculus can be a living being, like an animal, but not a person, 'Awakened critters are too magically powerful to be used as hosts, as are sapient beings (such as people).' p. 108

And as we know from the invisibility spell, the mana version of this spell works on cyber eyes (even though they are technically cameras) because the user pays essence (effectively making the cyberware part of the astral presence.

Since a mage would have to pay an essence cost for the Bone lacing, it would technically be part of him, and the spirit cannot inhabit a Sapient being.

Sorry joker, but using your bones as a homonculus isnt going to get you out of your quadrapalegic flaw

Posted by: Joker9125 Jan 24 2004, 10:16 PM

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jan 24 2004, 11:03 PM

What about surgically implanted Foci? I can see a magician making small thin foci and simply having them implanted under the skin, with no tissue removed and no neural connection it shouldn't even cause essence loss.

Magiware.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 11:32 PM

I was just wondering, if you're standing behind a being that has immunity to normal weapons, and the being gets shot at, does your character take damage?

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 11:35 PM

QUOTE (DamienKnight)

And as we know from the invisibility spell, the mana version of this spell works on cyber eyes (even though they are technically cameras) because the user pays essence (effectively making the cyberware part of the astral presence.

I thought that the mana version works only in the mind of the viewers, and that's why cybereyes can't detect the character hiden by it.

Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 24 2004, 11:41 PM

QUOTE (DamienKnight)

QUOTE (Zimbabwean Aardvark @ Jan 24 2004, 01:44 AM)

I would allow something like bone lacing to be the focus in my campain, because you would have to reduce your magic rating to gain those benefits.

Maybe it would add 1/2 of all its physical atributes to the character. This would make up for the severe restrictions of having your spirit confined to your body.

Maybe a bit more than make up for those restictions...
probably not a good idea.

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 25 2004, 06:04 AM

I believe that a spirit that is possessing does not get Immunity to Normal Weapons. That comes from using the Materialization Power (SR3 p. 188 and 264), not the Possession Power (MitS p. 99).

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 25 2004, 10:58 AM

QUOTE (Zimbabwean Aardvark)

I was just wondering, if you're standing behind a being that has immunity to normal weapons, and the being gets shot at, does your character take damage?

There isn't any SR canon mechanic for taking damage from stray bullets, is there? (Apart from the shot rules and suppressive fire, of course.) So the "canon" answer would be no, s/he doesn't take damage.

Back to making sense: Depends on the being, don't it? If this is an Awakened elephant with massive bone plating and Immunity to Normal Weapons, sitting down, and someone is blasting at it with a pistol, then hell no s/he wouldn't take damage. If the being is a materialized air or fire elemental, then the bullets will not be slowed down at all and will not significantly change paths either, and there certainly is the possibility that the character gets hit.

Anything in between (e.g. water elementals, vampires, etc) are trickier. For vampires, I'd treat it physics-wise like a slab of flesh slightly harder than a human, so a single HMG-sized round would go right through but pistols might not. I have no idea what I'd do with a water elemental, but I'd probably just treat it like water (expanding and fragmenting bullets wouldn't pose a serious threat to someone behind the materialized elemental, but intact FMJ and AP rounds might well).

The answer depends on what you would do if someone is hiding behind a barrier (a brick or wooden wall, for example) that someone is trying to blow open with a firearm. But generally speaking I don't think the Immunity to Normal Weapons "hardens" the being in any way, and a materialized Fire Elemental is no more solid than actual fire.

Posted by: GoldenAri Jan 25 2004, 02:49 PM

QUOTE

I believe that a spirit that is possessing does not get Immunity to Normal Weapons. That comes from using the Materialization Power (SR3 p. 188 and 264), not the Possession Power (MitS p. 99).

It does if it's a great form spirit, at least according to the Channeling metamagic.