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Posted by: Falanin Aug 15 2009, 03:42 PM

With all the magic threads, i'm inspired to use a magician (possibly mystic adept) prime runner badguy whose schtick is stealth and touch-spell enhanced unarmed combat.

Unfortunately, the game is on Tuesday, and I'm WAAAAAY behind on the test prep that I need to do before then. So, anyone have an NPC or character like this I could use already made up? Alternately, anyone inspired enough to make one... just to see how much damage they can do?


...I have cake.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 15 2009, 07:12 PM

What kind of BP level are you talking here. How tough are the Pcs? And how challenging do you want the threat to be.

Posted by: Shinobi Killfist Aug 15 2009, 07:43 PM

This is a quick example. Improve where you think is needed for the Pc level. I made him/her 400 BP so not prime I guess.

ELF
B 4
S 1
A 6
R 3
C 7
I 3
L 2
W 4
190 in attribute
Edge 3 20
Magic 5 40

Infiltration 4
Unarmed Combat (Touch Attacks) 6
Spellcasting (combat) 3
Summoning 4
Counterspelling (combat) 2
Death Touch
Knockout
Shatter
Improved Invisibility
Increase Reflexes
Magiican
restricted gear
Power Focus 4
Sustaining Focus 3
Mentor Spirit (Wise warrior or other combat spell mentor)

35ish points of disads that fit, or since its a npc who gives a crap about the math.

No contacts but its an NPC jut throw in what fits.

This gives the character.
10 dice for sneaking, with spirits that can conceal maybe a -force dice to the Pc perceptions tests. A specialization in urban environments might be useful.
9 Dice to summon
12 dice for unarmed combat 16 dice to touch with a spell.
12 dice to sling spells 16 dice for combat spells which is where you find all the touch spells.
2 dice for counterpelling but 4 for combat spell.
Has natural low light so optical range enhancement and flare comp covers most of the bases, in the long run some cyber eyes would be useful but NPCs should have some flaws to exploit.
Level 3 sustaining focus and increase reflexes= 3 initiative passes and an initiative of 8.

Posted by: knasser Aug 15 2009, 07:46 PM

No time to stat one up, I'm afraid. But you don't need to do anything special. Decent initiative and IPs, good combat skills and drain attributes, and the three touch spells (Indirect, Direct Physical and Direct Stun). You might want to consider Mystic Adept.

K.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 15 2009, 10:22 PM

Here is a quick draft made with 400BP left 2 BP for other gear.
Tharg Elfkiller
Orc Magician

Bod 5
Agi 5
Rea 5
Str 4
Cha 2
Int 5
Log 2
Wil 5
Edg 1
Magic 5

Power foci 4
Sustaining foci 2 (Health Imp. reflexes)

Spellcasting 4 (combat)
Counterspelling 4
Summoning 4

Stealth group 2
Athletics 2
Unarmed Attacks 4 (Hsing-I)

Or'zet N
English 4
Cantonese 3

Restricted Gear (Power foci)
Braggart - He is very confident in his skill and power. He makes this no secret. Has been known to maim people who call him on his bullshit.
Prejudiced (Specific, Active) - Hates Elves with a passion. Will kill an elf in cold blood that looks at him funny. Believes Elves responsible for Veritas and HMMV outbreaks.
Distinctive Style (3) - As a Hsing-I (chinese martial art) practitioner he is very distinctive. His penchant for murdering elves and scrawling in orzet on their bodies with a blade is as well. Making heads magically explode with just a touch is also something you don't forget.

Tradition: Psionic (Digital Grimoire) -
He believes all of his magical power to be manifestations of his innate power channeled through his skills. He channels his 'chi' to harm others with a mere touch; He can deflect bullets with force of will; He can cloud minds to become invisible; and so on. The summoned psionic manifestations (spirits) are possession based. They are shards of his psyche manifest into the psychic plane.

Spells:
Death Touch (direct, touch) - usually overcasts to maximum force (Force 10 at 3 drain value)
Stunbolt (direct)
Invisibility, Improved (Realistic, Single)
Detect Enemies (Active)
Increase Reflexes - Usually bound to a sustaining foci (2) that is an 8-ways trigram medallion.
Deflection (physical)

Gear and Armor as you see fit. He would probably try and dress as chic and cool as he believes himself to be. He generally wears gloves to keep the blood off his hands, and isn't above adding brass knuckles, hard-liners, etc to augment his strikes. He doesn't bother with guns because they are beneath a super-metahuman such as himself.
He can be sneaky. He can be direct. If he possesses himself with a psionic manifestation (spirit) he feels invincible enough to wade through gunfire if need be.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 15 2009, 10:31 PM

Because you can only damage with the touch effect,
(not touch effect plus unarmed attack)
The damage will be limited by the force of the spell.
Magic at 5 allows a force 10 spell (overcast).
With Death touch that is 10P resisted by Willpower alone (mana spell). DV: (f/2)-2
With Shatter that is 10P resisted by Body alone (physical spell). DV: (f/2)-1
You can use net hits to pump the damage, but +1 DV to the attack is +1 DV to the drain.

Posted by: Falanin Aug 15 2009, 10:47 PM

Thanks for the help, guys. Quick check... touch spells don't include an unarmed attack as part of the same complex action? If they do, then a mystic adept could get up to OMFGdamage... unless only one source of damage counts. Wasn't sure if I wanted to take advantage of that, or be a more versatile pain in the ass as a magician.

The team is currently sitting at 430BP+20 karma.

I need this guy tough enough or sneaky enough to NOT immediately die from minigun fire, and if he coul hurt said troll w/minigun enough for him to notice that'd be GREAT.

Original idea was for the touch-boom guy to be a wetwork target for the team. His detection spells will let him be a prepared pain in the butt, and if the team takes TOO long, the orginization will be sending their "cleanup" crew in. (he's been targeted before, and the results were messy)

I dig the personality on your guy, McC! If nothing else, I'm lifting that.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 15 2009, 10:52 PM

Rather than sustaining focus, you could go for a hardliner glove weapon focus, which would add the Force of the focus to your Unamed Combat Skill for attacks.

Posted by: Glyph Aug 15 2009, 11:39 PM

Remember, that is an optional rule now - he might not use that rule at his table.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 16 2009, 06:40 AM

Glad you like him.

You make the Unarmed attack as part of the touch-range spellcasting action,
but yes only one damage source counts. (for example: Stick'n'Shock bullets only do electrical stun damage even though it is a bullet)

An undetected mage using this or various other techniques could drop the troll with a mini gun in one shot.
A stunbolt or manabolt could do the same thing silently from far across the room, but where's the fun in that?

If you want to give this guy a chance to escape (to be a recurring thorn in your team's side),
using a high enough force spirit to posses himself would make him able to actually shrug off bullets as he escapes.
Possession is tricky and can be messy but trading control of your body for Immunity to Normal Weapons with a spirit of at least Force 5
will likely mean being able to deflect most mundane attacks.

I hope this works out for you.

Posted by: Knight Saber Aug 16 2009, 06:49 AM

A touch spell action includes the unarmed attack used to convey the touch. You get +2 dice to hit if you're just doing a touch instead of attacking for damage, so yes, you can do OMFG damage that way.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 07:10 AM

Add elemental Effect Iron or Blast to your punches and have some fun. Or water, or sand. Make people wonder what the heck just hit them ^^

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 16 2009, 02:06 PM

You do get the +2 for doing a touch attack. However, the FAQ states:



The roundabout statement being that you must choose one source of damage in an attack.
Elemental Effect does expressly state that it adds to unarmed damage, so it is the one exception (and it can be used for some REALLY impressive hits).

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 02:21 PM

Much more important than the +DV with elemental effect is the halving of Target-Armor. That is MUCH more usefull than adding one or two points of damage . .

Posted by: Falconer Aug 16 2009, 03:28 PM

Good catch... energy aura is a nasty way to add some damage to the character. Only a handfull of ways to get it though... endowment doesn't work, guardian & task don't have it. Make character a free spirit (can have powers), Make character posdession tradition (possess w/ air, water, or fire spirit), or spirit pact w/ free spirit for use of the power.


I'm shocked no one has had any of the 'decrease attribute' spells. My favorite is 'Decrease Wil", Why? Great for interrogations, great for knockous! (rather than filling up the stun track, you just drop the wilpower to 0). Even better, it reduces the attribute which the attack is resisted with!!!


Multicasting is your friend w/ touch spells, (and the really low drain code). Though w/ the way splitting dice pools and mods are handled for multi-casting and multi-attack you'd want a good power/spellcasting focus + a good weapon focus (like hardliner gloves) to get a good bonus dice on each attack after the split.


Specialization in touch spells is something I've never really considered, but it adds dice to a wide variety of spells I commonly use.



Really, though, for fun... I'd consider going with an actual free spirit NPC w/ realistic form & materialization. If he needs to escape, he can run away to metaplane, or dematerialize to the astral (maybe dropping some cheap equipment like armor jacket and the like to the ground when he does so). You could throw the players for a real curve ball, thinking he's a normal player or even a possession mage (w/o the hassles of problem of who has control of the body and how the services work).

Drawback: no focus or other expensive equipment if you're going to be materializing/dematerializing... no physical gear of any kind except cheap stuff you don't mind losing.
Advantage: nasty ability to play cat and mouse w/ PC's... even materializing in pass 1 right next to someone... touching them, and then dematerializing if they have no way to protect themselves from astral. Lots of nifty spirit powers to make use of as well in addition to magician.

I don't know about 400BP base char though... this is supposed to be a prime runner to challenge players w/ some actual ranks under their belt.


Though possession tradition strikes me as a much more powerfull choice though. (attribute buffs... access to spirit powers, etc).

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 04:09 PM

Wanna be really mean?
See all those assholes out there?
Decrease Charisma. The worlds dumpstat.

Posted by: Falanin Aug 16 2009, 04:28 PM

Soooo..... I don't get to stack unarmed and spell damage, but I get to multi-cast spells with extremely low drain. Since I can cast multiple touch spells with a single action, does that mean I get a free unarmed touch attack to deliver each of them? If so, do I get my full unarmed dicepool for each attack? And does that mean that my target takes penalties for having defended against previous unarmed attacks?

Can you say "Five point palm exploding heart technique"?




Edit:P.S. Also, could I inflict an elemental effect from an adept power on any of these unarmed touches, even if they cause no damage?

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 04:35 PM

If i understood this the right way, multi-casting touch-spells is basically a ready-weapon action, meaning your hand is now loaded up with several spells.
You do ONE unarmed attack to touch the Target, and if you do, ALL of those Spells go off simoultanously. And then the target has to defend against every single spell as if you had hit them several times with different spells. But you don't have to actually touch him several times, so that's your advantage right there. Order of their going off being the order in which you cast.
And no, Adept-powers don't work like that.
Adep-Powers give your unarmed Damage elemental Effects. No Unarmed-Damage, no Elemental Effect. Simple neh?

Posted by: Falanin Aug 16 2009, 04:40 PM

Oh dear. So that means the multi-cast chain of:

Overcast(F8-12) touch-only Decrease Willpower/Death Touch/Death Touch/Death Touch... If the first one goes through, the rest can chip the target to death one hit at a time. Ewwww....

Posted by: Falanin Aug 16 2009, 04:43 PM

The other question is: could you use the riposte martial arts maneuver to set something like this up? I could see this being ruled either way, but I'd want to be at least SOMEWHAT fair to my players.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 04:54 PM

Don't see why it should not work.
It does not Change anything in this, aside from maybe giving you dice pool modifiers for your actual unarmed combat roll.
And yes, that means the Spells will go off one after the other, but the Target also gets to resist each time again and again.
If the spell is weak, chances are good he will resist all of them. If the Spell is Force 8 to 12, you usually only need a single
spell anyway, especially with the mana-spells which go against willpower and if available counter-spelling but ignore armor
and body attribute completely.

Posted by: Falconer Aug 16 2009, 05:30 PM

No, touch spells aren't 'held' like in DnD. (even in DnD can't hold more than one at a time).

No you can't cast a large number of them then walk up and handshake some poor unsuspecting fool.


Each touch spell has as part of it's casting a touch attack.
"The caster must make a normal unarmed attack as part of the Complex Action of spellcasting" A tie on the Opposed Mleee Test is sufficient for the caster to touch the target"


If you're multi-casting, probably the most elegant way is to combine multi-casting w/ multi-attacking if going for multiple targets. However, I don't think this is quite correct.

Normal melee multi-attack
In melee, split your Agility + Unarmed(modified). Into multiple attacks. THEN apply the positive and negative dice pool mods to each attack (EG: specialization touch, touch attack is an instant +4, if you have a weapon focus like hardliner gloves... there's another +force).


Lets give an example... knockout. (force 4 poewr focus, force 4 weapon focus gloves. Casting pool of 12, Unarmed pool of 12 both before mods). Specialization in touch spells, and touch attacks in spellcasting and unarmed.

3 simultaneous force 5 castings.

Step one: calculate spell... /3 on each pool for simplicity. Base dice pool of 4 casting, 4 unarmed. Draon on each is (5/2)-3+3==2. Assuming Background count of 0.

Step two:
Roll 1st Touch attack: Base 4 dice, +2 touch attack, +2 touch specialization, +4 weapon focus == 12 dice +- situation mods (wound penalties, visibility, target prone, friends in melee... etc).
Defender rolls his normal defense of Reaction + relevant melee. (or full defense)... unlike normal, attacker wins ties.

IF IT HITS: Roll the spell (no point wasting time rolling spell if attack misses)
Base 4 dice, +2 (touch spells) +4 (power focus) == 10 dice (12 if menor spirit). +- situational mods (background count etc.)
Target resists against spell with Willpower (+counterspell if present) as normal against direct or indirect spells.

Step three: repeat step two, but cumulative attack penalty for defending of -1. (also wound penalty)
Step Four: repeat step two, but cululative up to -2 penalty on defense, and maybe more wound penalties

Step Five: Roll Drain.
Three times, roll your FULL DRAIN, against drain of 2 as calculated in step one. (you can probably 4:1 these off at a mere drain of 2... get up to 3 and you'll probably have to roll it).

There, you're done.


That is how I see it as straight pure RAW. If you were a true rules lawyer and twink... you might argue that the text "make a normal unarmed combat" roll in the spell, means you make the unarmed combat check normally w/o splitting the pool, but that doesn't seem quite right to me. (RAW/RAI).

There's also another alternative reading I can see... Since multi-casting is casting multiple spells as a SINGLE complex action. You're limited to a single unarmed attack roll.

EG: roll a single normal unarmed touch attack. If it hits.
Do steps 2-4 to apply touch spells in sequence.
Roll drain again at the end.

Quite frankly... that latter interpretation strikes me as correct. (one complex action, one touch attack). And lets face it the first procedure gets pretty long and drawn out to resolve becoming a bit unwieldy.

Also remember, if multi-casting there's no rule which says that all the spells cast have to be touch! (EG: you could lead off with the orgasm spell, giving him a -dice penalty... and truly lead yourself down the path of touching inappropriately).

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 16 2009, 06:13 PM

OK, maybe i was wrong.

Posted by: Knight Saber Aug 16 2009, 10:44 PM

That sounds a little too roundabout to me. I can understand the ruling for Stun Gloves, since anyone with 200 nuyen can get a pair, and it'd be pretty pointless to have them if you hit someone so hard in using them that you broke their neck.

A Mystic Adept has to split his magic two ways and spend a lot more Karma than even a mage to power up. Allowing to do a full-force unarmed combat attack along with touch spellcasting would probably not unbalance the game too much.

Posted by: Falanin Aug 16 2009, 11:10 PM

Well, for a counter-example, capsule rounds deal their normal damage AND apply the effects of the chemical. So the SR4 rules don't always lock you into a single source of damage for an attack.

BTW, this is great motivational stuff. I have new posts to intrigue me every food break. Thanks, guys.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 12:37 AM

Hahahaha. So it rolls down to GM fiat after all.



I can imagine it actually being really devastating.
A Troll voodoo shaman with weapon focus spike gloves possessed by a spirit of man using innate spell [Death Touch] is competitive with vehicle mounted artillery.
However, that is as much due to possession as anything else.
Or investing 1 magic point as a mystic adept into killing hands+elemental strike leaves the rest of your points for magical mayhem.
A mystic adept could almost be worse with those.
And then it comes back to GM fiat on what is acceptable in play.

I would be careful about letting melee and spell damage occur, especially with multi-casting.

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 01:12 AM

Just let a pixie overcast Shatter. IIRC, the net hits from the touch attack AND the spellcasting would add to damage (only fair, what else would net hits on the attack test do?) but not to drain (it's indirect), so if you played the dice pools right (have a bound spirit Aid Sorcery the test, use Centering and Spellcasting(/Power) and Centering foci) I imagine it would be conceivable to out-damage a Panther. But let's roll some dice!

We're going for near-maxed, so let's say the pixie soft-capped all relevant attributes (AGI, CHA and WIL at 7) and skills (Unarmed [touch] and Spellcasting [combat] both at 5). Since we brought weapon foci into it, let's say we have a force 4 glove focus. That's 20 dice to attack; a skilled and competent (but not optimized) opponent might be rolling with 4 REA and 5 weapon skill, so let's assume 5 hits against 3, which means we're adding 2 DV to whatever the spell comes up with.

Spellcasting [combat] 5 and Magic 6 give us a base of 13. Force 4 Spellcasting focus and force 6 spirit (c'mon, you can bind one of those, right?) using Aid Sorcery add 10, an appropriate Mentor Spirit adds 2, and, well, there aren't a lot of things that add to spellcasting pools, so we should be happy with 25 dice. We know the target has 4 REA; let's be a bit generous and say he has the protection of a mage with Counterspelling 5, for a total of 9 dice to resist. 25 dice should give us 8 hits, minus 3 hits is 5. But what force did we cast it at? Let's throw caution to the wind and say 11, because odd numbers are better and Shatter has a pleasant drain code. This gives us 4P drain, which, with 14 dice from CHA + WIL, which, with 2 dice from a fetish, can be bought down to 0.

Resulting DV? ~18, if net hits from the unarmed attack go to damage, ~16 if not. And this is against anything that can be touched, object resistance be damned. It's not easy to get together these foci and keep the bound spirit around, but it might be worth it.

Posted by: Knight Saber Aug 17 2009, 02:26 AM

I too have done a ninja mystical adept, using spells for melee attacks. With the 4A rules, I think I'd give him level 1 Improved Reflexes first, rather than such a diverse range of powers. Improved Stealth 2 for the rest.

Mystical Ninja

Attributes 240
Body 3
Agility 5
Reaction 4
Strength 2
Charisma 2
Int. 3
Logic 4
Will 5

Edge 1
Essence 6
Magic 5

Qualities +5
Magic Adept 10
Incompetant (Pistols, Longarms, Automatics) +15

20 Spellcasting 5
12 Counterspelling 3
20 Infiltration 5
16 Dodge 4
16 Unarmed 4
12 Perception 3
6 Throwing (Knives) 1 (3)

Adept Powers:
Agility Boost 1
Ultrasound Sense
Great Leap (2)
Improved Infiltrate (2)
Critical Strike (2)

Spells:
Death Touch
Shatter
Prophylaxis
Imrpoved Invisibility
Stealth
Mask

Resources 4 BP
Contacts 9 BP

Posted by: Knight Saber Aug 17 2009, 02:29 AM

The disadvantage being you have to go up into melee combat range, which will be difficult a lot of the time, impossible at some others. If a person charges at you with glowing, empty hands, you can bet that you'll be shooting at him as much as possible.

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 02:30 AM

Wow... guns have not been kind to this ninja.

I'm not the only person who always maxes qualities at 35 up, 35 down, am I?

Otherwise, interesting built, only thing I'd say is 4 BP is not much for resources, but mystic adepts never have enough to go around.

Posted by: Falconer Aug 17 2009, 03:38 AM

No, net hits on the melee don't help spell damage at all. It's simply a hurdle you need to cross to deliver the spell.

it's merely to give you the privilege of actualy bothering to roll the spell out. (you'll still suffer the drain even if you don't hit).


Touch spells are balanced, by their exceptionally low drain, which makes multi-casting them a very scary proposition. I for one, won't use hits add to drain, and don't know anyone who is.

But even there... hitting someone with 3 seperate castings for 15 damage before net hits, with a mere 3*2 drain should be explanation enough.


The only RAW method I can see to add physical damage on top of a spell is by use of the elemental aura spirit power. Which automatically adds elemental damage to anything which touches you or which you touch.

And quite frankly... getting into melee in shadowrun is still pretty easy in the typical room to room urban fighting seen. Once there, there's not much that someone not built for melee can do to run away either due to the interception rules. It's made even easier if things like the movement power from spirits are in play.

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 03:51 AM

So you're telling me net hits on the attack do nothing, RAW? I don't like the rule, but I'm not going to yell at you for it. If I ran the table in question, I'd say the net hits are added as dice to the dice pool for the spellcasting test, which represents the fact that it's easier to channel mana through a sturdy grip than the astral ether. Stronger "targeting link" and all that.

Posted by: Falconer Aug 17 2009, 04:30 AM

And again, you're providing no reason why it should... perception... successfull... you see a tree. Very successfull... you see a tree.

Just because you grab a mage with zero hand to hand combat skill. Does not mean he's any worse at resisting the spell than he normally would be.

Given the nature of magic, and all the advantages it provides (this from someone who plays almost exclusively magical types), there is no good reason I can see to have this enhance damage. ESPECIALLY since there's special 'touch bonuses'


A straight adept can do an exceptional amount of damage with just basic hand to hand or a sword. Physads can get scary. There's no good reason to add more.

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 04:55 AM

Oh ho ho! You can argue that I'm providing no GOOD reason why it should, but argue not that I'm providing no reason. I will explain my reasoning in further depth, to prove that (whatever its quality) it does exist.

First, your example with perception is limited. Successful? I see a tree. Very successful? Well, if all there is to see is a tree, that's all I see, but if an apple thief is hiding in the tree, I'll have a better chance of seeing him. In fact, with an exceptional success, I might be able to tell how many apples he has in his pockets! I guess the principle you're trying to illustrate is "net hits aren't always useful," right? Well, it's true; they aren't always. If you beat a guard's Perception check with your Infiltration, there's no difference between "he doesn't notice you" and "he COMPLETELY doesn't notice you," is there? I'm just arguing that, in this case, there is an effect.

And what effect is that? Well, I'll begin by illustrating what happens when a targeting link (that which astrally connects a spellcaster to his target, allowing sorcery to work) is weak. Street Magic, page 29:

Now, we're agreed that sorcery cannot affect anything to which the user does not have a magical link (page 159 of street magic, if you're curious), and the above quote shows that a weak link applies penalties to Spellcasting tests. Ergo, a "strong" link, if such a thing were to exist, would probably provide a bonus to Spellasting tests, wouldn't it? Well, I believe that if sympathetic and symbolic links are "weak" links, as is targeting through optics (SR4A pg 332, spellcasting through optics gives a -3 modifier), then a direct tactile connection is stronger than a direct line-of-sight connection. Maybe brushing the target's shirt (0 net hits) isn't any stronger than a LoS link, but I should think that firmly grabbing his arm (2-3 net hits) would be, and would intensify the channeling of mana in much the same way that, if the hand were electrified, it would make that also more intense.

You may have all the game-balance reasons, fluff reasons and personal reasons in the world to disagree with me, but I assert that I'm providing a reason that more net hits is a stronger link is more dice on spellcasting.

Posted by: Knight Saber Aug 17 2009, 05:02 AM

Spending so much time studying magic, stealth and spells, who has time to go down to the firing range?

4 is pretty tight, but it covered some lifestyle, personal electronics, armored vest and throwing knives. I didn't type up the list, as the character didn't make the cut... I went with a more conventional mage for that game.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 01:39 PM

I have to agree with McAllister, SR has a bias towards close range combat that makes melee characters viable.

However, if something falls in the cracks of the rules and is left to GM fiat, that is fine with me.
In some games, melee will be more challenging. In some games, the power level will be much higher.

While I am not prone to give players in my game double dipping on damage (capsule rounds do no bullet damage in my games either),
that may work well as a balance in your game.

On a different note,
In further examining the Decrease [mental attribute] spells are pretty nasty,
Decrease Willpower reduces their ability to resist magic and their stun track.
Decrease Intuition makes slow people even slower if not stopped completely.
Decrease Charisma is likely to incapacitate ugly assholes in one shot.

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 02:46 PM

I'm flattered that you agree with me, but it sounds like you're agreeing with something I never said. Falconer was the one who pointed out how easy it is to get into melee combat. My feeling on the subject is that it takes some work to get into melee combat (i.e. set up an ambush, sneak, make sure you have plenty of cover etc. etc.) but it's certainly doable. I also agree that, once you're there, a wide variety of builds have nothing to do but full dodge, whatever good that does them.

Hmmm. Now that I look at the attack/defense situational mods, I can see a "defender in melee targeted by ranged attack" penalty to defense, but no penalty to the attacker for firing into melee. Am I to understand that, unless you're using a shotgun or a grenade, there's no chance of you hitting friendlies when you shoot into melee combat?

Posted by: Falanin Aug 17 2009, 03:08 PM

Wait... you mean everyone in your world doesn't use IFF?

Posted by: crazyconscript Aug 17 2009, 03:15 PM

When i have characters shooting into melee, i make them take the three die penalty and then set a threshold for what they need to get to hit their target rather than their buddy. Glitches will also hit the friend. It rarely comes up, so i dont have a set-in-stone threshold that i use. The last time it was a heavy pistol at about 10m, so i said the threshold was three. Its not perfect by any means i know, but the players seemed happy enough.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 03:19 PM

My apologies.

There are no longer friendly fire penalties in SR4.

No Melee friendly fire penalties. No penalty to casting in melee. Minimal penalty (-2dp) to firing a gun in melee. Defensive penalty to range attacks in melee.
These rules and other encourage having a melee point man in combat situations.

The Shadowrun Mission scenarios lean towards close to mid range encounters.
Urban combat in general makes sniping less feasible and close range weapons more advantageous.

Melee definitely has had its importance emphasized in SR4.
I conjecture this is so because it is dramatic, stylish, and popular.

I don't think we would be discussing melee range magicians otherwise.

Posted by: crazyconscript Aug 17 2009, 03:22 PM

It never occurred to me to try it before, but I actually love the idea of a touch-mage....
Makes me want to make a Face-Mage you do NOT want to shake hands with if you know who he is
Considering that i am a GM most of the time, said shaking of hands would obviously occur as their harmless looking employer betrays them as he seals the deal

Posted by: Ravor Aug 17 2009, 05:36 PM

Personally I'm not sure that the "handshake" would have survived in the Shadows, there are just too many nasty things that you can do to someone by touching them to risk it.

However, I agree that every mage should have at least one touch spell.

Posted by: crazyconscript Aug 17 2009, 05:46 PM

Hmm, your right. Maybe a gregarious troll then. Slaps on the back all round! (yes, i know it wouldnt be the norm, but they probably wouldnt expect it either to be fair)
If I do try and implement it, it probably wont be for a while though, as i am currently wrapping up my current campaign.

Posted by: Nows7 Aug 17 2009, 06:51 PM

My girl http://Dover Is a Formoi Troll Possession tradition with channeling. My favorite trick is pretty nice.

Channel Spirit - lets say force 5 Task*

That gives me a 9 Agi, reaction. 10 Strength

I have Unarmed combat (martial arts) 5(7)

Reach 1.

I cast a force 9 Knockout

9 (agi) + 7 (UA combat), Reach 1 = 17 dice to hit

On a hit i do 5S due to a GM ruling at char-gen that i can option to go for damage on the attack or go for touch and get +2 dice.

Then i roll my 10 dice for spell casting vs Their will + counter spelling. Net hits add to damage. 9s + net hits

Drain comes up last, so I resist (Force 9 /2) = 4.5 round down to 4. 4 - 3 = 1

I resist one drain.

If needed I will multi-cast a small powerbolt in there as well at a second target.


The other advantage is that as a possession troll, I'm rolling 32 dice normally to soak non-magical attacks, and since i'm in front, most of those attacks come against me, not my teammates.


I've been considering picking up a Sustaining (Health) focus for a while and grabbing Decrease (charisma) to try dropping goon's that way. The problem i see with DA (cha) is that if it works it takes them out, if it doesn't then it's pretty much useless. Decrease (will) Might be better, then they are running with a smaller will power track, and will hace a crap time avoiding the second knockout - But does that matter when you do 14s anyway?

What about the [Energy] Aura spells out of street magic?



*to not be overly game breaking i specialised in task spirits - the least useful of all in combat.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 07:47 PM

Hold the train right there!
How can you cast spells while possessed if the spirit doesn't have innate spell?

Emphasis mine.
Is this something that is house-ruled at your table?

Posted by: McAllister Aug 17 2009, 08:52 PM

Dunno about their house rules, but Channeling would seem to allow the character to cast spells whilst possessed. It says "The channeling magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while still enjoying the enhancing benefits of the Possession power." Doesn't specifically say yea or nay to spellcasting, but that probably counts as "using her skills," so I'd allow it.

'Course, without the metamagic, that would RAW illegal. However, RAW legal would be to say "I'm a troll. Possess my body, then use it to break the bad guys."

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2009, 09:12 PM

What would happen if the touch spell was cast before being possessed?

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 09:14 PM

Ok.
I guess we have always played with
possession being slightly more restrictive.

Channeling grants normal use of your body and skills,
but not magic.

The mage can either channel the spirit,
or channel their own energy.

Maybe that's also why possession
hasn't become a major balance issue.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 09:32 PM

As to your question Stahseele,
I do not think you can 'hold' or sustain an 'instant' spell.

I don't have a reference for that,
but I did find a raw resolution for the other conundrum;
(Emphasis mine)
Which clarifies the question of whether you can punch and spell simultaneously.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 17 2009, 09:55 PM

Ok, yeah, i don't know my way around magic/spells all that much.
I don't even know if a spell is instant or doesn't need water added.

Posted by: Falconer Aug 17 2009, 11:21 PM

McAllister:
Regards Sympathetic Linking.

Sympathetic linking requires a metamagic technique. So still, not a great argument. I'd say make up a custom metamagic to the same effect.

EG: Roll melee touch attack as normal, now add net hits as a situational modifier to the spellcasting pool. (melee attack aids the spellcasting test). Allow the mage to make a touch attack with any spell he knows (not just touch attacks), so he could channel stunbolt this way if he didn't know knockout for example.

Posted by: McCummhail Aug 17 2009, 11:23 PM

Stahlseele,
I might know various rules
and be able to look up others,
but I am far from a SR sage.

I know from lurking around for a while,
you know a thing or two about SR.

For future reference,
all combat spells are duration: instant;
and all health spells are range: touch.

Posted by: Stahlseele Aug 18 2009, 08:27 AM

Thank you, i'll try and remember that.

Posted by: Moxie Sep 5 2009, 01:53 PM

Wow, this looks interesting!

One question, could finishing move from Arsenal (martial arts manuever) apply at all? Since you technically make a melee attack...

You could followup with maybe a setup or herding manuever if you couldn't really cast another spell even. Interesting to see a corpse flying across the room dead from a shatter pixie's punch or something.

Posted by: iategod Jul 14 2010, 06:00 AM

Wouldn't the whole argument of whether or not net hits should be added to touch spells be kinda mute when the character in question can just do setup maneuver?

I'm wondering if a successful parry/block could be considered another touch attack? Ala riposte

Posted by: Falanin Jul 14 2010, 09:53 AM

Ooooo... I actually got necro'd. I must be a real dumpshock denizen now.

Heh, this one was fun.