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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Killing hands and Adepts
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 26 2004, 03:56 PM
My first question has to do with Killing hands. When I first read it I assumed that the costs for different damage levels weren't cumulative, thinking back on it I'm not sure any more. So is it .5 for light and then another 1 for M all the way up to 4 for D?
Also do you have to buy each lvl to progress to the next or can you skip around?
If you have to buy each seperate and in order buying it all the way up seems prohibitavly expensive.
*side note*
How do Adepts stack up to the other archtypes? From my limited exposure it seems they are pretty weak compared to mages and samurai.
Posted by: Zimbabwean Aardvark Jan 26 2004, 04:12 PM
The killing hands power cost isn't cumulative (i.e. when you buy M killing hands it costs 1, and when upgrading from L, it costs .5.)
They do seem weak to me to, although with enough karma they could be powerful. Reading other threads here seems to suggest that they measure up though. I've never actually played one.
Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 26 2004, 04:17 PM
14 dice in one skill, THAT'S why you play a adept (6 normal, 6 from adept power, 1 from recorder and 1 from that other bioware.... forgot it's name)
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 26 2004, 04:22 PM
Yeah, not cumulative. Just like Improved Reflexes.
You're probably thinking about Enhanced Artwinkulation. That doesn't make Killing Hands any more useful, though, since you can do that with a Dikoted Polearm just as well. Your hands are just more concealable and hard to disarm.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 26 2004, 04:26 PM
Adepts can be pretty powerful. The advantage they have over samurai is in the fact that there is no limit to their power. They can spend ~12 karma for each initiation and get 2 stat increases and a metamagical technique. Centering gives them an immense advantage over any street-sam as a good-enough adept can avoid all-but the most crippling TN penalties. You can even center-away penalties for defaulting if you have the correct metamagical technique.
12+dice in the skill, a few dice from a (dikoted) weapon focus, 10+ combat pool, a martial art with a few maneuvers, and reduced (if any) TN penalties from centering make adepts insanely powerful in melee. Specialisation is the way to go at the start, they generalise later once they are good enough at centering to ignore the +4 to defaulting from an attribute.
Posted by: Cain Jan 26 2004, 05:17 PM
To recap: You only have to pay the difference in costs. You can skip around all you like, although there's not much point-- if you buy Killing hands at serious, you already have Killing Hands at light. You can buy up to any level you can afford.
Where Killing Hands really comes into its own is fighting spirits. Spirits get none of their immunities versus it, and it works to full effect on the astral. An adept with Killing Hands and Astral Perception is as efficient a spirit-killer as a rabid mongoose on steroids is at killing snakes.
Adepts are not the all-purpose combat machines that sammies are, although they can easily trash them within a specialized area. A starting, BBB-only Adept can have 12 dice in a single skill, making him a deadly one-trick pony-- using some of the other books can raise that number.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 05:35 PM
You only pay anywhere near 12 karma for your first initiation, and then under optimal (and thus rarely-occurring) conditions. The cost for initiation goes up pretty quickly, so they stagnate just like sammies.
~J
Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jan 26 2004, 06:45 PM
Personally I've found that Physical Adepts are somewhat more limited than other character types, mostly because about 2/3rds of the adept powers directly relate to melee combat (Killing hands, Transmit blow, Blind Fighting, Delayed Strike, etc.)
This tends to limit their options more than other archetypes, particularly since they are eating Karma to initiate and get those powers and thus don't have as much Karma to spend on improving skills as the Sammie. It's also slightly annoying that many of their powers have been duplicated by Martial Arts maneuvers (blind fighting) and Edges (Pain resistance), making them a little less special. I'd like to see "Mental Adept" skills that let them use things like the improved attribute power for social and B/R skills.
However they definetly don't get to initiate every time for 12 Karma, it goes up like all other magician types. Past 5 or 6 initiations your Adept is having to pay tons of Karma for one more point of power.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 07:03 PM
Traceless Walk is beautiful and nonduplicateable, though.
~J
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jan 26 2004, 07:20 PM
Yes it is. but the only game mechanic i can find for it is under the tracking power in T:AL
The rest is all house ruled?
Posted by: spotlite Jan 26 2004, 07:20 PM
I'm afraid I disagree moonstone. The powers which aren't combat related are really very cheap like the extra senses and they funciton at the maximum level of their cyber equivalent if there is one. Improved skills, centering to pilot vehicles or B/R, stealthy and athletic adaptations which have more use than combat, especially at breaking and entering... much more than a melee character if you spend your points right (and you're playing that kind of character obviously). If you want to go the combat monster route, you certainly can, and with ease at that, but you can go a number of different routes. Maybe you're just incredibly athletic and have skills to back you up, for instance?
imho there is no archetype which can lord it over another. The only character 'type' I haven't played is a ghoul or shapeshifter, because I've never had the opportunity or inclination., though I have played with both in the group. If you're talking about direct threat though...
Compared to a sammie, the adept compares very favourably. Most of the sammies toys can be bought as external portatech ™ versions or adept version, if that's what you want to build. No reason why adepts can't have all those gunnery, heavy weapon and electronics skills, they just can't do it with wires and have to do it the hard way. I've seen one adept carve up an entire 5 player team, each averaging 7 karma pool. He was two grades higher than their highest mage, making him a G5, with a KP of about 9. Designed to be slightly more powerful than any of them individually, but as a group they should've been able to take him down. They did, eventually, he was just built with the right kinds of skills, including small unit tactics and other esoteric ones and boy, did he hurt them bad before he legged it - yeah, they didn't even kill him. Stealth, improved skills and reactions, increased senses, a monowhip and a smattering of metamagic.
Compared to a mage, a physad can be their worst nightmare, and vice versa. A mage will probably hold the cards on average at the higher grades, if they live that long though. But that's mages for you...
Compared to Deckers? Well, compared to deckers they generally suck in the non-combat areas. But if you want a decker, play one, fer chrissakes, or get your adept a jack, computer skill and a deck. In which case he's probably one kick ass decker if you spend your karma right and didn't take the wrong flaws, and good luck to you with that magic and money loss.
Compared to Riggers, you can actually get a reasonably good comparison, but they'll never be quite as good with a vehicle and they certainly won't be piloting any drones with anything like the comparison. But to do this you'd still need a shedload of vehicle skills and centering for each type of vehicle to get any modifier reductions, if they applied. But they COULD do it. I'd even allow a 'Piloting Reflexes' adept power at comparable costs to the normal adept reflex enhancements if the player could pay for it, simply because I figure if they can centre to drive in the first place, it stands to reason they could apply other magic to it. But that's definately a house rule!
Its all down to what type of adept you play and how you build it. They don't really compare to other types, just like you can't compare riggers and deckers. The closest thing to compare them to is a sammie but to be honest in certain areas they cannot compare to each other (tac puters and distance strike/killing hands combos, for example) .
If you want to know what its like to play an adept, play one. they're always fun. But then, so is everything else as far as I'm concened!
Posted by: Lilt Jan 26 2004, 07:23 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| You only pay anywhere near 12 karma for your first initiation, and then under optimal (and thus rarely-occurring) conditions. The cost for initiation goes up pretty quickly, so they stagnate just like sammies. |
I'm assuming an initiatory group and an ordeal here. 1st initiation is 12 karma (9+3 for the group). I think that most people would choose to take an ordeal as it makes it much cheaper: Oaths make a quick 1st pick-me-up; Characters playing their totems well may even do deed ordeals during normal play; Astral Quests don't take long, they should be OK for the first initiation or two; Taking a Familiar is the BEST ordeal EVER (but is unfortunately not available to Adepts).
Also: I wouldn't consider the cost increasing by 1.5 or 2 every time as stagnating and I doubt many people would initiate outside of a group. Consider the fact that a sammie's stagnation often involves having cyber removed, an expencive beta/delta copy of the same gear being installed, *THEN* buying the new gear (at Beta/Delta grade) that actually gives him the bonus. The Sammie can still spend karma for skill increases, but the adept is possibly getting the same skill increases for less karma due to weapon foci, power-points, and the fact that centering is applied to many skills.
Ahem.
[/rant]
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider) |
| However they definetly don't get to initiate every time for 12 Karma, it goes up like all other magician types. Past 5 or 6 initiations your Adept is having to pay tons of Karma for one more point of power. |
I agree, although if done carefuly and given some time for ordeals the karma costs for the first 4 would be 12,10,12, and 13 which averages below 12. Sammies who stuff themselves full of alphaware at the start of the game will need to save-up for a long time to get the Beta/Delta replacement for something big enough to leave an essence hole.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2004, 07:29 PM
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| Yes it is. but the only game mechanic i can find for it is under the tracking power in T:AL The rest is all house ruled? |
| QUOTE (Magic in the Shadows @ p151) |
| An adept with the traceless walk power can move over soft or brittle surfaces such as snow, sand, or thin paper without leaving any visible traces. An adept with this power makes no noise from contact with the floor or ground (though movement from clothes or gear may still cause noise); apply a +4 modifier to hearing-based Perception Tests. An adept with this power will not trip ground-based motion or pressure sensors. |
(Emphasis added)
That sounds like game mechanics to me.
~J
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jan 26 2004, 07:34 PM
Yup it's right there. Read it a dozen times and never seen that bit before, how the hell did i manage that???
Sorry Kagetenshi had to check my book just to make sure.
Posted by: Lantzer Jan 26 2004, 09:07 PM
Spotlite is right on.
When I've built an adept I didn't bother with a lot of the combat powers (well, a little bit of init boost). The not-directly-used-to-kill-people powers were very cost-effective, and made my adept move like he was on wires. (It's amazing what an adept can do on rollerblades).
Posted by: mfb Jan 26 2004, 11:15 PM
thing about adepts vs sammies is, adepts have fewer resources when it comes to improvement. adepts can spend only karma--nuyen can buy a little bit better gear, but there's a point at which you've acquired pretty much everything you need. sams, on the other hand, get it improve themselves both through nuyen and karma. sure, there's a point at which a sam can't improve his cyber any more--but it's a long, long way off.
the way adepts get around that is, they specialize. they pick two or three things, and they become insanely, unbelievably good at them--they pretty much have to, if they want to 'keep up' with the sams. sams will be good at a wide array of things, because they've got the resources to improve everything they do. an adept will need to figure out how to apply his specialty to every situation.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 26 2004, 11:57 PM
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| thing about adepts vs sammies is, adepts have fewer resources when it comes to improvement. adepts can spend only karma--nuyen can buy a little bit better gear, but there's a point at which you've acquired pretty much everything you need. sams, on the other hand, get it improve themselves both through nuyen and karma. sure, there's a point at which a sam can't improve his cyber any more--but it's a long, long way off. |
Also: Unless the sam has planned his character reasonably well at the start (not gone the 0.01 essence + 3 bio index route, or something close to it) he will slow himself fairly quickly.
Anyhow. Sammies are usually more powerful initially and can be effective all-rounders as they can often afford to buy a larger skillbase using karma (not as cheap before the M&M errata though, considering the Memunchik Enhancer errata).
Posted by: Zazen Jan 27 2004, 02:58 AM
Remember, adepts can take 'ware. In my experience the most frightening adepts are those who took 2 or 3 points worth of exceptionally good 'ware and geased their abilities to compensate (and in games which incorporate the new M&M errata, those few points can go a long way). They only have to geas the powers they lost, which is quite efficient. Centering for adepts can be extremely powerful, too.
I think they're better. This is a somewhat uninformed opinion, though, since I have little experience actually making and playing my own characters. It just seems like I can do more with them.
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 03:11 AM
er, you've got your geas rules mixed up. when dealing with lost magic, adepts have to geasa pretty much the same way mages do. and centering for adepts is fun, but it's not as big a boost as you'd think. if you're going for extra successes, you still have to get a success on the base test (it's a complimentary roll). lowering the TN isn't easy, either, until you get pretty high up in grade. my adept's just over 200 karma, and he's got 6 centering and a force 6 centering focus. he still only manages to lower his TN by a point or two, and that's still only once per action. the one place centering really helps is in stealth, mainly because SR's stealth rules are so mind-numbingly retarded.
sams can continue upgrading for quite some time, through use of essence holes and higher-grade cyberware. it's expensive, sure, but what else are they going to spend their money on?
foci are okay--but they're hard to mask.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 03:13 AM
No, the general absence of powers that require tests mean that an Adept is pretty much scot-free on most of their powers if they break a geas for a different power.
~J
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 03:17 AM
i was referring more to the fact that you can't just geas a single power, if you're geasing against magic loss. if i take some cyber, i can't just geas my Low-Light Vision--i have to geas an entire point of magic; if i break my geas, i can no longer use any power i bought with that magic (power) point.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 04:01 AM
Yes, that's very true, but it essentially amounts to geasing the power or powers that make up that point (unless you've got a few expensive powers rather than myriad little ones).
~J
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 04:17 AM
yeah. it depends on what you end up geasing.
Posted by: Zazen Jan 27 2004, 05:08 AM
I should've said that it can be efficient. I guess some dull-witted initiate could end up geasing a quarter-point of their Quick Strike, half a point of their Deadly Killing Hands, and a quarter-point of their Astral Perception. Usually it's done intelligently and ends up being pretty efficient, though. 
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 27 2004, 05:51 AM
Hmmm, my newbie streak is showing.
Where can I find more information on adepts (Only books I have with powers in it are the SR3 core and Grimore 2nd ed.)
Can Adepts do initiations? Grimore says only Shamans and mages can.
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 05:56 AM
you need Magic in the Shadows. it has rules for adept initiation. someone whose got MitS with them can give you the short-short version on what's involved.
Posted by: Cain Jan 27 2004, 06:08 AM
| QUOTE |
| Where can I find more information on adepts (Only books I have with powers in it are the SR3 core and Grimore 2nd ed.) Can Adepts do initiations? Grimore says only Shamans and mages can. |
Pick up Magic in the Shadows. Adepts really come into their own there. [edit-- damn it, mfb beat me to it.]
The short version is that they initiate the same way as any other awakened character. Adepts have a few more options when it comes to Centering, however. Unlike in the 2E grimoire, you only get one metamagic per level, and level 0 initiation is a thing of the past.
The other thing to remember is that while it's recommended that adepts not use the 20 karma = 1 PP rule if you have MitS, some people keep it anyways. If you do that, (as anyone who doesn't read the FAQ will) then adepts keep their edge for a good long while.
| QUOTE |
| i was referring more to the fact that you can't just geas a single power, if you're geasing against magic loss. if i take some cyber, i can't just geas my Low-Light Vision--i have to geas an entire point of magic; if i break my geas, i can no longer use any power i bought with that magic (power) point. |
Kinda-sorta but not really. What it means is that if the same geas has been applied to several powers, breaking it means all those powers are unuseable. However, if you've geased a power worth 1 pp, you have effectively only geased a single power. What's more, if someone has a power in levels-- say, several levels of Improved Strength-- then only 1 PP worth is affected. So, the adept may not be *as* strong unless he eats his can of spinach, but he could easily have several ungeased levels of Improve Strength availiable to him.
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 06:08 AM
some people say that 3 points is too much for the Quickpost power. some people are fools.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 06:15 AM
Just shoot him in the foot. Then you can beat him to the post once more
~J
Posted by: mfb Jan 27 2004, 06:17 AM
yep. he'd be flat-footed, so i'd get my sneak attack damage and--if your GM allows it!--my iaijutsu attack damage.
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 27 2004, 10:29 AM
| QUOTE |
| The other thing to remember is that while it's recommended that adepts not use the 20 karma = 1 PP rule if you have MitS |
Out of curiosity, why is that?
Another thing I found odd, at char creation all othr archtypes can improve their powers (Mages can buy spell points
, Sammys can buy new tech 
, riggers can buy cars 
) but there is no way to get extra adept powers.Posted by: Fortune Jan 27 2004, 11:01 AM
| QUOTE (Crimzero) |
| Out of curiosity, why is that? |
Because the rules for Initiation are in MitS. If you only use the main SR3 book, there would be no way for the Adept to progress in Magical Ability, so the '20 Karma' rule was thrown in. If, on the other hand, you use the rules for Initiation as presented in MitS, the '20 Karma' rule becomes superfluous.
| QUOTE |
| Another thing I found odd, at char creation all othr archtypes can improve their powers (Mages can buy spell points , Sammys can buy new tech , riggers can buy cars ) but there is no way to get extra adept powers. |
Why should they? Mages are limited in the amount of Spell Points they can actually purchase, and if they choose to do so they take a dramatic hit on the rest of their character's stats.
Adepts can also buy new tech, including Cyber and Bioware. They also aren't prohibited from buying cars. There are lots of different ways to create an Adept character without the need for even more Magic at chargen.
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 27 2004, 11:13 AM
| QUOTE |
| If, on the other hand, you use the rules for Initiation as presented in MitS, the '20 Karma' rule becomes superfluous. |
Ah, I see. I will have to get my hands on a copy (if only people would stop outbidding me! argh!)
| QUOTE |
| There are lots of different ways to create an Adept character without the need for even more Magic at chargen. |
True, I jst thought it was kinda weird mages and shammies could buy more spells and adepts couldn't.
Posted by: toturi Jan 27 2004, 01:06 PM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Adepts can also buy new tech, including Cyber and Bioware. They also aren't prohibited from buying cars. There are lots of different ways to create an Adept character without the need for even more Magic at chargen. |
Yes, but adepts are more limited than mages in buying stuff at chargen. Adepts cannot bond a weapon focus, they cannot use cash to buy more power points to give themselves more abilities in a manner similar to mages.
Mages can buy cars too, as well as cyber and bioware. You make them sound as if they can't buy cars or cyber or bioware. That is a misleading statement.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 27 2004, 01:32 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| That is a misleading statement. |
Posted by: Rev Jan 27 2004, 06:32 PM
I think if you add a bunch more powers and/or allow physads to make up reasonable powers they are just fine.
The canon books just don't have very many adept powers, and half of them are quite lame.
Posted by: sidartha Jan 28 2004, 03:04 AM
in my most humble opinion you can make a highly efective adapt with the powers in MITS. concider the adapt that can jump over a 9 foot tall fence not set off the motion sensors on the other side and still moves like he has wired level 2
Posted by: Cain Jan 28 2004, 08:05 AM
| QUOTE |
| Yes, but adepts are more limited than mages in buying stuff at chargen. Adepts cannot bond a weapon focus, they cannot use cash to buy more power points to give themselves more abilities in a manner similar to mages. |
Neither can mundanes. Your point?
Anything a mundane can buy, an adept can as well.
Posted by: Digital Heroin Jan 28 2004, 09:55 AM
Adepts being some of my favorite characters... I see nothing but benefits to playing them... dice and martial prowess aside, as well as flavor aside... there's one benefit I love:
Starting Characters:
Street Sammie walks into building: metal detector/cyberware detector go insane, Sammie's pulled aside.
Adept walks into building: metal detectors not tripped (he's his own weapon), cyber scanners not tripped... mages pull sammie aside after assensing.
Expirienced Characters:
Street Sammie walks into building: metal detectors possibly not tripped (ceremic weapons if the Sammie's wise, caseless ammo), cyber scanners tripped (delta's rare and expensive, and we're not talking hot at drek here), Sammie pulled aside
Adept walks into building: metal detectors not tripped, cyber scanners not tripped, Adept walks past assensing mask as he is Initiated w/Masking...
May the Ghost bless the elegant, and unobtrusive approach.
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 28 2004, 11:58 AM
Could someone give me a quick bare-bones rundown or initiations til I can get my hand on a copy of MitS. I don't need much just exp costs. Shadowrun stuff is even sparcer than Exalted stuff around here.
| QUOTE |
| That doesn't make Killing Hands any more useful, though, since you can do that with a Dikoted Polearm just as well |
I know it's been a while since this was posted, but I wanted to comment on it. I have to think killing hands would be vastly more useful than a polearm simply because a polearm should be nearly inconcealable. Expecially in wetwork situations, a suit is more likly to open his door to a guy with his room service, than to a guy with his room service... and a halberd strapped to his back. Plus being able to kill with a hand shake* would make negotiations go much smoother
*a slight exageration, for spice BAM!
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 28 2004, 12:21 PM
| QUOTE (Crimzero) | ||
I know it's been a while since this was posted, but I wanted to comment on it. I have to think killing hands would be vastly more useful than a polearm simply because a polearm should be nearly inconcealable. |
The message you quoted continued: "Your hands are just more concealable [...]". It was also a direct response to solidCobra's message about Adepts being capable of tossing 14 dice.
| QUOTE (Crimzero) |
| Plus being able to kill with a hand shake* would make negotiations go much smoother |
Not really an exaggeration, because it works. You'll need Delay Damage (Silent), though.
Posted by: Crimzero Jan 28 2004, 01:15 PM
| QUOTE |
| The message you quoted continued |
I know I'm not bashing you or anything, I was vocalizing the voices in my head. Deadly hands seems to be much better than deadly polearms...
(insert weird image of adept with gorilla arms... sorry)
but then again, the pole arm doesn't cost 4 power points I can see your point
| QUOTE |
| Not really an exaggeration |
That's pretty sweet, nice way for a coporate adept type to "work" his way up the ladder.
Posted by: Siege Jan 28 2004, 02:10 PM
Hey Digital: I'm a big fan of adepts too, but if they've got a mage working security who's gonna assense the samurai, odds are the adept is gonna get pegged too. 
-Siege
Posted by: toturi Jan 28 2004, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (Digital Heroin) |
| Starting Characters: Street Sammie walks into building: metal detector/cyberware detector go insane, Sammie's pulled aside. Adept walks into building: metal detectors not tripped (he's his own weapon), cyber scanners not tripped... mages pull sammie aside after assensing. Expirienced Characters: Street Sammie walks into building: metal detectors possibly not tripped (ceremic weapons if the Sammie's wise, caseless ammo), cyber scanners tripped (delta's rare and expensive, and we're not talking hot at drek here), Sammie pulled aside Adept walks into building: metal detectors not tripped, cyber scanners not tripped, Adept walks past assensing mask as he is Initiated w/Masking... |
Sammie walks up to the Sec Guard, "Mr Johnson is coming. I'm here to secure te area for his arrival. I'll be taking over. Your services are no longer required." Pulls out SIN and other (well-faked) permits, shoves Sec Guard aside, tells Sec Mage he's relieved. Obvious cyberware reinforces the image that he is obviously more qualified than low Sec Guard.
Adept says, "Please Mr Sec Guard, please stand down. I've got no guns, just my bare hands."
Posted by: Siege Jan 28 2004, 02:52 PM
Physical adept in a suit with sunglasses looks mean and nasty enough in a corporate manner that the sec guard realizes he isn't paid enough to question someone as important as the adept and scurries for cover.
Obvious cyber just means you weren't important enough for beta or delta grade 'ware.
-Siege
Posted by: toturi Jan 28 2004, 02:58 PM
Obvious cyber can be delta. Just it is OBVIOUSLY cyber. And sec guard realises he is not paid enough to question someone as OBVIOUSLY powerful as Mr Obviously-Cybered Sam.
Posted by: Siege Jan 28 2004, 03:08 PM
Idle curiosity: what kind of obvious cyber were you thinking of?
In a world of suits and uniformity, I'm not sure how much obvious cyber would be acceptable.
-Siege
Posted by: TheScamp Jan 28 2004, 03:19 PM
| QUOTE |
| In a world of suits and uniformity, I'm not sure how much obvious cyber would be acceptable. |
In a sec/bodyguard type? I'd say a fair amount, limbs and eyes being primary.
Posted by: Siege Jan 28 2004, 03:26 PM
You advocate cyberlimbs?
The only real obvious bits of 'ware I could think of would be datajacks and either dermal armor or dermal sheathing.
Cybereyes aren't particularly obvious unless you choose to get them chromed.
-Siege
Posted by: spotlite Jan 28 2004, 05:11 PM
*slaps self upside head* keep forgetting about geasing. Should remind my physad players. I beleive you can geas regardless, to get cheaper powers. i don't *think* it has to be to compensate for loss.
Regarding the 20karma per point rule - we still use it as well as initiation even though we know what the FAQ says. This is because regardless of how many powers you have, you can only use as many as you have magic points. Letting them buy power points doesn't let them use the powers. They have to turn off some of their existing ones in order to use the new ones. So even a grade 5 adept with 10 extra power points of powers who's managed to not lose magic points from injury or cyber still only has 11 points of magic. He might have 21 points of power, but he can't use all of them at once and it still takes free actions to turn them on, or turn them off. that adds to a free action and a simple action to deactivate one and turn on another in one initiative pass. And that much time can be dangerous.
this allows adepts who really can't afford to initiate at the high levels to still gain flexibility and increase in usefulness to the team, but not at the expense of game balance, and they have a few spare karma points to improve skills and so on. Its more enjoyable for the player, and doesn't cripple the Gm at the same time. House rule though, obviously.
Posted by: Cain Jan 28 2004, 08:44 PM
| QUOTE |
| Hey Digital: I'm a big fan of adepts too, but if they've got a mage working security who's gonna assense the samurai, odds are the adept is gonna get pegged too. |
Yeah, but it's not illegal to be an adept. And if said adept initiaties and gets Masking, he's invulnerable to casual assensing attempts. In a high-traffic area, with lots of people going in and out, the adept won't get more than a cursory astral scan unless he really stands out.
| QUOTE |
| Sammie walks up to the Sec Guard, "Mr Johnson is coming. I'm here to secure te area for his arrival. I'll be taking over. Your services are no longer required." Pulls out SIN and other (well-faked) permits, shoves Sec Guard aside, tells Sec Mage he's relieved. Obvious cyberware reinforces the image that he is obviously more qualified than low Sec Guard. Adept says, "Please Mr Sec Guard, please stand down. I've got no guns, just my bare hands." |
Adept pulls out well-faked SIN and other permits. Sec guard looks at the orders, decides he's not being paid enough to question orders, and goes away.
All you need are good fake orders. You could have an otaku show up with good papers, and Joe Rent-a-cop will follow along. In fact, an otaku (with a higher charisma) is more likely to convince Joe that he can wait until later to call and confirm the orders.
Posted by: k1tsune Jan 28 2004, 10:22 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| All you need are good fake orders. You could have an otaku show up with good papers, and Joe Rent-a-cop will follow along. In fact, an otaku (with a higher charisma) is more likely to convince Joe that he can wait until later to call and confirm the orders. |
This just reminds me of when my Otaku (12 years old) posed as a student from a corp school shadowing someone. ^_^
...of course, that was the Run from Hell, sooo..
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 12:34 AM
A minor detail. You convinced them enough that they were trying to avoid hitting you at first.
~J
Posted by: k1tsune Jan 29 2004, 01:17 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| A minor detail. You convinced them enough that they were trying to avoid hitting you at first. ~J |
And I actually wasn't killed! Yay!
Did you roll perception to see if the NPC's noticed that the kid had a datajack? ^_~
Posted by: Digital Heroin Jan 29 2004, 01:55 AM
| QUOTE (Seige) |
| Hey Digital: I'm a big fan of adepts too, but if they've got a mage working security who's gonna assense the samurai, odds are the adept is gonna get pegged too. -Siege |
First set, yeah, Adept'd be pulled aside... but that's asuming there even is a mage actively assensing persons passing. Second Adept, the Expirienced one, has Masking... so Mr. Assensing Mage'd have a tougher time picking him up, while cyber scanners'd still pick up Mr. Sammie...
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Sammie walks up to the Sec Guard, "Mr Johnson is coming. I'm here to secure te area for his arrival. I'll be taking over. Your services are no longer required." Pulls out SIN and other (well-faked) permits, shoves Sec Guard aside, tells Sec Mage he's relieved. Obvious cyberware reinforces the image that he is obviously more qualified than low Sec Guard. Adept says, "Please Mr Sec Guard, please stand down. I've got no guns, just my bare hands." |
And any reasonable SecMan would go "who the frag is Mr. Johnson?" as that's a psued used for quasi-legal activities, not corp terminology... plus permit or not, he calls his CO for instructions, and the second the Sammie lays a hand on him he gets red flagged... plus the mage on duty gives the rasberry to the Sammie, who has no authority over him, and would be showing great ignorance by thinking he could relieve awakened support...
The adept is never unarmed. While the Sammie has to rely on technology for lethal combat (be it a gun, sword, spur, etc), the Adept merely uses his body. Guns aren't the end all and be all of combat. Not to mention having guns in the first place flags one as a security risk.
The object, as you seem to have missed it, was to -pass through- the security checkpoint undetected, not draw an arseload of attention to oneself.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 01:59 AM
| QUOTE (k1tsune) | ||
And I actually wasn't killed! Yay! Did you roll perception to see if the NPC's noticed that the kid had a datajack? ^_~ |
Given that for most of the applicable time you were face-down over Yves' shoulder, no.
~J
Posted by: TheScamp Jan 29 2004, 04:42 AM
| QUOTE |
| You advocate cyberlimbs? |
In a bodyguard that's supposed to look like a bodyguard? Hells yes. Nothing says "I'll mess your shit up" like a shiny metal hand. Besides, there's just so many surprises that you can put into them.
| QUOTE |
| The only real obvious bits of 'ware I could think of would be datajacks and either dermal armor or dermal sheathing. |
Dermal armor is actually something that I think is one of the least socially acceptable ware, at least for most of the races. The only person who's supposed to look like a troll with a bad case of dermititis is an actual troll with a bad case of dermitis.
Datajacks are, IMO, common enough as to be almost completely beneath notice.
| QUOTE |
| Cybereyes aren't particularly obvious unless you choose to get them chromed. |
Or blued, or swirly, or leopard spotted...whatever. I just think that obvious eyes are another effective (yet generally acceptable) way to say "I've got metal, so don't screw with this guy I'm standing behind."
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 06:35 AM
| QUOTE | ||
In a bodyguard that's supposed to look like a bodyguard? Hells yes. Nothing says "I'll mess your shit up" like a shiny metal hand. Besides, there's just so many surprises that you can put into them. |
As a PC option? I've aways found them to be overpriced and not enough return on investment.
| QUOTE | ||
Dermal armor is actually something that I think is one of the least socially acceptable ware, at least for most of the races. The only person who's supposed to look like a troll with a bad case of dermititis is an actual troll with a bad case of dermitis. |
Unless, of course, you're a bodyguard and aren't nearly as expendable as the armor jacket you're wearing.
| QUOTE | ||
Or blued, or swirly, or leopard spotted...whatever. I just think that obvious eyes are another effective (yet generally acceptable) way to say "I've got metal, so don't screw with this guy I'm standing behind." |
That's a matter of interpretation, I suppose. It's flamboyant and draws unwanted attention to you and possibly the person you're guarding. Some employers may prefer a bodyguard that doesn't draw more attention than absolutely necessary.
And if you're guarding a conservative suit, he (or she) may not appreciate such gaudy fashion accessories. It would be like showing up to a corporate board meeting with an earring in some companies.
-Siege
Posted by: Fortune Jan 29 2004, 07:29 AM
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||||||
Unless, of course, you're a bodyguard and aren't nearly as expendable as the armor jacket you're wearing.
That's a matter of interpretation, I suppose. It's flamboyant and draws unwanted attention to you and possibly the person you're guarding. Some employers may prefer a bodyguard that doesn't draw more attention than absolutely necessary. And if you're guarding a conservative suit, he (or she) may not appreciate such gaudy fashion accessories. It would be like showing up to a corporate board meeting with an earring in some companies. |
In one breath you advocate Dermal Armor which, as was said, is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants, and in the next you denegrate obvious cybereyes as attracting too much attention.
In my opinion, people would react less favorably towards the dude with the Dermal than they would to the guy with leopard spot eyes.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 07:46 AM
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| Dermal Armor which, as was said, is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants |
Why is that, though? Personally, my skin (followed perhaps by bones) would be the first thing to go if cyber- and bioreplacements became available. It's just a strip of dead stuff coating me. Augmenting or replacing it completely would seem like not a big deal to me. Dermal Armor is described "anything but subtle" but also that it can come in any texture or color, so basically it would look just slightly misshaped. Dermal Sheaths don't seem to have any trouble in that area.
So if I was talking with someone who's had his skin replaced, I wouldn't feel very funny. Just a different, better, layer of dead stuff coating him. I would definitely feel weird talking with someone who's had extremely significant parts of himself (like eyes or arms) replaced, and actually shows it off.
Posted by: Fortune Jan 29 2004, 08:07 AM
I can make the same argument about almost any piece of cyberware though. There is no differentiation in canon as to cutting off your skin vs. cutting off your arm. Both supposedly incur social penalties.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 08:11 AM
The argument that it feels weird talking to someone who's had something replaced, or talking to someone who's showing off the fact that he's got something replaced? Because Dermal Armor (and certainly Dermal Sheath) don't show it off, but leopard spot cybereyes or shiny chrome arms certainly do.
Another simple mind game to play with yourself: Consider how bad you feel when you see skin cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see a whole arm cut up/ripped/burnt/whatever. Consider how bad you feel when you see someone's eyes cut up/ripped/burnt. Skin is simply not that important a part to a human being, we're not that attached to it.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| There is no differentiation in canon as to cutting off your skin vs. cutting off your arm. Both supposedly incur social penalties. |
With that in mind, the earlier argument that "Dermal Armor [...] is close to one of the least socially acceptable implants" is not very well founded.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 02:01 PM
I'd say that dermal armor would be as noticeable as an obvious cyberlimb. Dermal armor is probably also incredibly uncomfortable to non-trolls. Wether dermal sheaths are actually common in your games is up-to you but I doubt many high-class body-guard types would, favouring dermal sheaths if anything. Then-again, most bodyguards in my games are expected to go everywhere with the suit and the sort of upper-class establishment which might reject someone for not wearing tres-chic clothes would also look-down upon a bodyguard with obvious and/or intimidating 'ware that might disconcert the other patrons.
Leapord-spotted eyes would also be looked-down upon under corp circles as breaks from the standard "uniform" corp look.
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 02:22 PM
Dermal plate used to be the only option for bodyguards.
Now with dermal sheathing, it's probably the more common choice, certainly over dermal armor.
That being said, dermal sheathing is easily concealable in an acceptable fashion -- the majority of it covered by a suit jacket and pants.
Cybereyes could easily be concealed by sunglasses, but some people will look at a character oddly if he's wearing sunglasses indoors at the corporate HQ. Trust me on that one.
Fortune: as to socially acceptable, in a corporate setting dermal protection is more easily concealed and even if it's noticed, it's classified as a datajack -- something integral to work and considered as such.
Compare that to something exotic and decidedly personalized like leopard spot eyes.
Now, if you're looking for style points on the local club set, you'll get more points for the leopard eyes moreso than the dermal armor.
-Siege
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 02:37 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Dermal plate used to be the only option for bodyguards. Now with dermal sheathing, it's probably the more common choice, certainly over dermal armor. |
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| That being said, dermal sheathing is easily concealable in an acceptable fashion -- the majority of it covered by a suit jacket and pants. |
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 02:46 PM
You don't _need_ dermal protection to be a bodyguard, however:
Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire.
Wanna guess which one has dermal protection?
-Siege
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 03:04 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire. Wanna guess which one has dermal protection? |
I'd guess that the one that went down was the one with dermal armour as the one without dermal armour may have bone-lacing, muscle replacement (= quickness = combat pool for dodging/soaking), reaction boosters so he acted faster, or a higher body attribute from simply spending the dermal plating guy's surgery recovery time in the gym training.
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 03:18 PM
He couldn't have gotten a higher Body by working out in the gym since he's not a shadowrunner and couldn't earn Karma!
Humor aside, if we're debating the merits of a reflex package over body protection, I'll grant you moving faster is better than not.
As for the tres chic locations, if your guard is wearing the much-vaunted suit and tie, etc. how likely is the tres chic going to detect the enhancement and will they turn away a corp's bodyguard when, if he is important enough to warrant one, does the tres chic restaraunt want to alienate portions of the select clientele they're aiming for?
-Siege
Posted by: TheScamp Jan 29 2004, 05:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Because Dermal Armor (and certainly Dermal Sheath) don't show it off, but leopard spot cybereyes or shiny chrome arms certainly do. |
Dude, Dermal Amor consists of big, lumpy metal and plastic plates bonded to someone's skin (it is not a skin replacement). How is that less obvious and 'creepy' than someone with spotted eyes?
And incidentally, your skin is certainly not dead. It is a fully functioning organ.
| QUOTE |
| Bodyguard A is down and expiring messily while Bodyguard B is hustling his employer to safety while absorbing gunfire. |
Orthoskin and bone lacing.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 05:15 PM
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| Dude, Dermal Amor consists of big, lumpy metal and plastic plates bonded to someone's skin (it is not a skin replacement). How is that less obvious and 'creepy' than someone with spotted eyes? |
Dude, I know what it consists of, but it's not showing it off unless you color it purple or make distinct shapes out of it. Someone simply having cybereyes is very, very different from having leopard spotted cybereyes. Same for a concealable cyberarm vs a polished chromium cyberarm.
The topmost layers of skin, which is what you usually look at, is mostly dead. The bottom layers are of course alive, so that more skin can be produced all the time.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 07:40 PM
Back on topic (sort-of) how do people think Adepts compare to Sammies at bodyguarding? There's no chance of offensive 'ware and you could possibly take voluntary geases on powers, saying that you can only use them in the defense of another. The Talisman Geas would also be a snich as you are very rarely going to be asked to bodyguard without gear.
Posted by: Rev Jan 29 2004, 09:05 PM
The emotion sensing, and quick strike (or whatever it is called) powers would be very good for a bodyguard. Astra perception and a weapon focus would also put them in great demand.
Also physads just recently became significantly stronger with the half magic loss from bioware thing.
Posted by: TheScamp Jan 30 2004, 05:27 AM
| QUOTE |
| Someone simply having cybereyes is very, very different from having leopard spotted cybereyes. Same for a concealable cyberarm vs a polished chromium cyberarm. |
Well, sure; because no one knows they're there in the first instances, and thus are kind of difficult to figure into whether or not they're socially acceptable.
Posted by: Czar Eggbert Jan 31 2004, 01:14 AM
Okay... this is my attempt to see if this is too cheezy. Say I have an adept. I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman?
Let the flames begin.
-Czar Eggbert
Commin out of my Shell
Posted by: Bölverk Jan 31 2004, 05:49 AM
| QUOTE (Czar Eggbert) |
| Say I have an adept. I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman? |
No, because, having been paid for with Essence, the cyberarm is considered part of his body (assuming he's had it implanted, and he's not just carrying it around in his backpack - in which case it would be perfectly valid, though strange.
) It would be like trying to count your fingernails as a talisman.
Posted by: TheScamp Jan 31 2004, 07:38 AM
| QUOTE |
| I get him a cyber arm so I can fill it with all sorts of goodies. Can I the make that cyberarm his talisman? |
A much easier solution as far as rules are concerned would be to simply build in a compartment that you could open and pop in a standard type talisman. Or just use a body compartment or something.
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