Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Dermal Sheathing

Posted by: Johnny Demonic Jan 27 2004, 03:23 AM

I have a PDF version of Man and Machine and have stats for this item, but no idea how to visualize it. I think it was pictured in an out of print book called Cybertechnology many moons ago. Of course I cannot get my hands on that now.

So, does it cover the face, hands, and feet? Does it cover over the genitals ans rear of the character? Does it look like a giant laminated person or is it in bands like vinyl siding or roof shingles?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 27 2004, 03:36 AM

You should buy a copy of Man and Machine.

Think of Dermal Sheathing as the silvery skin sometimes covering the T-1000 Terminator in Terminator 2. It'll only cover as much of the character as the character chooses. Of course, it'll only protect that which is covered. Don't cover your private parts if you still want them functional -- just get armored underwear.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 27 2004, 03:53 AM

Basically... imagine replacing your skin with a flexible, protective, synthetic substance. I imagine it could be just about any color, and, though it would never look quite natural (and, of course, youd flare up like a beacon in an MAD), higher grades of it would look more and more like real skin (unless you prefer the chromed look).

And yes, you could choose how much skin you wanted replaced... but the rules for the item probably assume that youre pretty close to completely covered.

Oh... yes... you should *buy* a copy of the book.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 04:16 AM

Admitting to piracy of Shadowrun materials (especially in-print ones) is generally a bad idea on these boards unless such mistakes are quickly corrected.
Other than that, what they said.

~J

Posted by: Johnny Demonic Jan 27 2004, 05:31 AM

Thanks All. I know dermal armor is like Sub-Dermal Armor with pics from CP2k20. Orthoskin is somewhat like Skinweave from R. Tals' game. But I just couldn't picture what Dermal was for the longest time. I played 2nd Edition many moons ago and did some CP too.

The reason I asked about what it covered and didn't cover was the differences between Shadowrun's lack of body area shots like an arm, leg, head, etc.. to CP's direct hit here on this limb or torso idea.

I am confused on cyberskulls and torso too. They have a perfect fake bio appearence to the normal eye or something much less than human looking to them. How do they throw all your brains back into the skull and tongue? I know this is a crazy question but I just can't picture it. I assume they rescoop your lungs and other gutty works back into the torso just as well.

I grabbed the PDF of the net a while back. I heard that a ton of game companies went under or got bought out by everyone else. I am still amazed TSR got gobbled up. I thought FASA went belly up or in hibernation like R Talsorion did. I fgigured the only thing that was left was WOD and Gurps.

Posted by: OurTeam Jan 27 2004, 06:01 AM

By the way, Johnny, welcome to Dumpshock. You'll find a bunch of people here that are enthusiastic about Shadowrun, and willing to interact with you over the rules and setting and GM skills and everything else Shadowrun related.

We all want the game to stay around, and that happens best if the game developer stays in business. We promote everyone buying legitimate copies of the books they use.

Welcome.

Posted by: Diesel Jan 27 2004, 06:39 AM

Well it ain't, so cough up the bling, my friend.

Posted by: Johnny Demonic Jan 27 2004, 06:42 AM

Who owns the game now? Is there anyone putting stuff out on a regular basis? Not like mid 90s TSR I hope. The complete everthing book next week.

Thanks for the welcome, I do appreciate it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 06:46 AM

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com has taken over production, though the game itself is owned by WizKids. They're hopelessly behind on their releases, but the releases are still getting made eventually. http://www.stiggybaby.com may help in getting an idea of what all is out there.

~J

Posted by: Johnny Demonic Jan 27 2004, 06:57 AM

Thanks for the links.

Posted by: sidekick Jan 27 2004, 07:01 AM

A cyberskull is less a new skull, and more a bracing of the old one. Basically they take out a lot of your skull and replace the bone with tough alloys and cermics. Obvious skills often lack skin in many places or have odd shapes to them. Synthetics probably are crafted to look like your face and probably have the face's musculature and skin regrown on top of it.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Jan 27 2004, 01:25 PM

hell, the skin and muscle probably doesn't even need to be regrown. haven't you ever seen a facelift? just peel it all back, replace the skull, then put it back in place and suture you up. neurosurgeons do it all the time to people with screwed up skulls.

Posted by: Solidcobra Jan 27 2004, 02:05 PM

so, dermal sheath 1 looks like rough skin, while dermal sheath 3 looks like normal skin?
good, all my characters have dermal sheath 3 (4 extra body>>>>>>> j00)

Posted by: Siege Jan 27 2004, 02:13 PM

The description in Cybertech implies dermal sheathing has a sheen to it, like artifical skin. (Which, in turn, implies artificial skin exists and has a sheen to it)

I would imagine for extra cash, the overall appearance could be improved for the fashion conscious.

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 05:15 PM

I think the implication was more than basic dermal sheathing was rough skin, LIII rougher than LI, but that delta grade was quite a bit more like natural skin.

~J

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 27 2004, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Solidcobra)

so, dermal sheath 1 looks like rough skin, while dermal sheath 3 looks like normal skin?
good, all my characters have dermal sheath 3 (4 extra body>>>>>>> j00)

err... no. the various *levels* of dermal sheathing are indistinguishable at a glance, though careful examination would probably reveal higher density at *level* 3 than *level* 1. None of the grades are "rough"... unless you mean "a rough approximation" rather than "rough in texture" - if anything noe of the distinguishing characteristics of dermal sheathing is its smoothness as compared to natural skin.

The term "Grade" as applied to cyberware is a reference to its basic, alpha, beta, or delta designation.

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jan 27 2004, 07:18 PM

Don't forget you can get Ruthenium Polymers put in Dermal Sheathing. Allows one to become the Predator...as long as one goes nekkid

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 27 2004, 07:40 PM

So what happens if, as postulated above by a poster, you don't install it in the more sensitive areas?

~J

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jan 27 2004, 07:51 PM

I'd think getting shot in the crotch is going to hurt like a mother wether you've got dermal sheathing or not.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 27 2004, 07:51 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

So what happens if, as postulated above by a poster, you don't install it in the more sensitive areas?

~J

Either you get some ruthenium underwear, or you become the most advanced streaker to have ever lived. It is unadvised for those who choose to leave certain parts uncovered by the sheathing to use the ruthenium option when running, as sec. guards will likely target that which they can most easily see...

Posted by: Teulisch Jan 27 2004, 07:56 PM

Instaling the ruth poly is expensive, and not really worth it imho due to the need to go without armor. Ruth poly is nice for outer-wear though. seems like you need 12 image scanners to be really effective, since tahts the most you can get a bonus from.

one thing you may want to do, is to install an image scanner, in the left hand perhaps, even without the ruth in the actual dermal sheath. link it with a router to the image link, and you have a nice hand camera.

for real stealth, youll want that ruth suit to include some thermal dampening, and something to spoof or stop ultrasound. Just wont do for all those trolls with machine guns to see your body heat when you go prancing about nekkid in your dermal sheath.

One of the nice things about ruth, is it can do patterns. camo for any enviroment, or even anti-sensor night camo. and the real reason to put it in the demal sheath, imho, is to do full-body tattoos, that can not only change, but can scroll text, or whatever else.

Posted by: Req Jan 27 2004, 08:01 PM

I seem to recall that old-skool Orthoskin (from Shadowtech, the best sourcebook ever) talked about a loss of tactile sensitivity; don't know whether that's still the case as of M&M. Has there been a mention of similar effects from a dermal sheath?

Posted by: Siege Jan 27 2004, 08:05 PM

There was a debate about whether or not there would be, however according to canon there is no appreciable diminishment in tactile function.

-Siege

Posted by: Req Jan 27 2004, 08:05 PM

...that's for the sheath, right? Not for orthoskin?

Posted by: Lindt Jan 27 2004, 08:15 PM

Im not gonna comment about things along the lines of "She never saw it comming" *goes back to sleep*

Posted by: Siege Jan 27 2004, 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Req)

...that's for the sheath, right? Not for orthoskin?

Correct -- dermal sheathing suffers no penalties to tactile perception.

-Siege

Posted by: sable twilight Jan 27 2004, 08:35 PM

If I remember the picture they had in Shadowtech correctly the sheathing looked sort banded, like the character Colossus from X-Men. I think there was also a comment by one of the Shadowland posters about identifying a person with the sheathing by watching for bunching at the joints when they move.

Posted by: Req Jan 27 2004, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

Correct -- dermal sheathing suffers no penalties to tactile perception.

I think that's going to be one of those Not In My Game things, then. Or else a dermal sheath will be much more limited in what it covers, a la Dermal Armor. Personally I can't see a perfectly-flexible layer that can stop bullets and compares reasonably with rigid ceramic plates, but then that's just me.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 27 2004, 09:22 PM

Well, it doesn't stop bullets, and it compares really poorly with rigid ceramic plates. But it could still be argued either way, so house rule it all you wish.

Posted by: Req Jan 27 2004, 10:03 PM

It's the level 1 = +1 body, level 2 = +1 body, level 3 = +2 body, right? What else does the Sheath do?

Posted by: Siege Jan 27 2004, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (Req)

It's the level 1 = +1 body, level 2 = +1 body, level 3 = +2 body, right? What else does the Sheath do?

At some point, you also get impact armor -- it's been so long since I played a 'wired sam, I can't remember.

Level 2 dermal sheath offers 1 point of impact armor, Level 3 sheath offers 2 points of impact armor (1/2 level, round up).

-Siege

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 27 2004, 11:41 PM

QUOTE (Req)

It's the level 1 = +1 body, level 2 = +1 body, level 3 = +2 body, right? What else does the Sheath do?

Umm... no. You get a bonus to your body of rating+1. So... level 1 is +2 body, level 2 is +3, and level 3 is +4. As Siege said, you also get a bonus to impact armor, depending on level. levels 1 and 2 provide a single point of impact armor, and level 3 provides 2 points. These stack perfectly with worn armor and do not count when determining combat pool penalties.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jan 27 2004, 11:53 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Well, it doesn't stop bullets, and it compares really poorly with rigid ceramic plates. But it could still be argued either way, so house rule it all you wish.

I think the rigid ceramic plates he is talking about are the ones involved in dermal plating. And yes, dermal sheathing is in all ways better than dermal plating except for its cost.

Additionally, if the extra body dice allow you to stage an attack down to nothing that otherwise would have hurt you, then it is reasonable to say that the sheathing did, in fact, stop that bullet.

All of that aside... if you can get the full range of tactile sensation in a cyberlimb, I see absolutely no reason not to allow it with dermal sheathing.

Posted by: Siege Jan 28 2004, 12:01 AM

Ya know, I can't really say that adding dermal sheathing to a cyberlimb as a good idea --

1. You can't deduct essence for wrapping the stuff on a cyberlimb
2. The character would only receive the bennie of impact armor and not body since the character's Body does not enter into the resilience of the limb itself.

For all of that, you might as well bolt some armor plates on the limb if you want extra toughness.

-Siege

Posted by: Req Jan 28 2004, 12:05 AM

QUOTE

Aha! Now I remember.

QUOTE

I think the rigid ceramic plates he is talking about are the ones involved in dermal plating. And yes, dermal sheathing is in all ways better than dermal plating except for its cost.

That's more what I was trying to get at. Dermal plating "stops bullets" through extra body dice - I can't think of any other way to reflect the points of body it gives you, since it's just plates. Same with the sheath. I guess I never thought about it in relation to cyberlimbs though - but I wonder if the SOTA is ready yet for cyberlimbs that provide the same sensations as flesh limbs. I mean, sure, temperature, pressure, pain, etc, but the specific gradations of human sensation?

I guess I always thought that they provided a sensorium of their own, not really analogous to specific natural sensations, but that the user learned to interpret. I'd probably say something similar for the sheath. Orthoskin is different as the same nerves are still doing their natural thing, they're just underneath a much tougher dermis.

Of course it's the more subtle sensations which would be interesting, in these questions. I'm wondering exactly what a caress feels like to a person with a cyberarm, either as caresser or caressee?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 28 2004, 05:35 AM

QUOTE (Req)

Dermal plating "stops bullets" through extra body dice - I can't think of any other way to reflect the points of body it gives you, since it's just plates. Same with the sheath.

They certainly slow bullets down, but stop them it doesn't. It might stop some fragments of a fragmenting bullet, it might reseal the wound etc, but since it does not provide any ballistic armor, it is really poor for stopping bullets.

But that isn't particularly important. If you wish for Dermal Sheaths to degrade tactile perception, go right ahead and do so in your games. It is certainly arguable that they might be worse for the touchy-feely stuff than actual skin. I'll just go on assuming that the very high cost of the implant and other aspects of the system allow the owner/wearer/whatever to feel things well enough.