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Posted by: TeaTime Sep 11 2009, 03:32 AM

So, I'm all hating on these deus ex machina Corporate Attack Helicopters coming out of nowhere and ruining the ending to a perfectly good, highly profitable run. And I'm looking at you to solve the problem, Mr. Mage.

Can anybody recommend good spells to hurt high Body+Armor vehicles (Citymasters, Stonewalls, Aguilars)?

(I'm thinking elemental attacks might be the way to go, but I'm not sure how vehicles resist things like Electricity or Sand)

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 11 2009, 04:19 AM

Spirits. Have one materialize inside a vehicle, like a Fire Spirit. Or just have it rip apart rotors or wheels.

Trid Phantasm one of their ground vehicles to look like yours, friendly fire isn't friendly after all. Mentally Manipulate the pilot (if any) to make a wrong turn. Apart from that I have no idea how to blow up one of these. A Citymaster has a body of 16 and Armour of 20. That means it can roll 36 dice. If you can throw Lightning around that can defeat that...

Perhaps "Melt Electronics" would work.

Posted by: TeaTime Sep 11 2009, 04:43 AM

Spirits are a good though, and I like the idea of going after exposed vulnerable points.

The opposition is a bit too smart to fall for Trid Phantasm (I figure they're using IFFs), and as much as I'd like, I'm not going to get clear line of sight to Control the pilot.

But you're right, 36 dice against a Lightning Bolt- it might as well be 9volt.

Still, there's gotta be a way...

Posted by: McAllister Sep 11 2009, 05:15 AM

Are you dead set on hurting it? A Bind spell would really ruin a chopper's day if you stopped its blades from spinning, and, IIRC, you're just rolling a Spellcasting test against its Body (and Counterspelling if relevant). In general, lots of things (even a moderately hard Physical Barrier, for example) will ruin an aircraft's day; they tend to be delicate, and lightly constructed.

As for tank-like groundcraft, could Shape Asphalt (or 6th world equivalent) be used to make a road mushy, such that the vehicle sank a few inches in and became immobilized? Honestly, I think your choices are that (or Glue, or some other Manipulation-based disable), go for an illusion-based disable, or overcasting your indirect combat spell like mad. Force 11 should do the trick; since the vehicle will be rolling very few dice to oppose you, you'll get some nice net hits, and the armor you're rolling against is only 10. You're not going to one-shot it, but then again, nothing is.

Oooh, if you can beat OR 6, Ignite might get you somewhere, and if you can get 5 hits, Levitate will lift over a ton. And what if you slapped an Armor/Physical Barrier spell over the barrel of a cannon? Basically... it's time to get creative with Manipulation spells.

Posted by: RunnerPaul Sep 11 2009, 05:58 AM

One of the primary advantages of tank treads are mobility over rough terain, including soft ground. The 70 ton M1 Abrams exerts a ground pressure of only 15 pounds per square inch, about twice what a standing person exerts, or about half of what the average car exerts. Add that to the fact that the engine's force is getting transmitted to the road surface through a contact area thats larger than the four small contact patches of a set of car tires by a couple orders of magnitude, and it becomes rather difficult to make ground soft enough to get a tank "stuck in". Both Russia and Germany actually have tanks that can ford rivers at 3-4 meter depths when the optional snorkel is equipped; if those tanks don't get bogged down in the soft muddy bottom of a flowing river, I doubt anything the Shape Asphalt spell could do would even phase them.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Sep 11 2009, 08:08 AM

I'm not sure why people think there should be a simple spell solution to something that takes multiple RPG's to take out.

But i'll be over here grousing about the games increasingly disparity of magic over tech.

Posted by: rathmun Sep 11 2009, 08:20 AM

An assault cannon can also reliably take out an assault helicopter fairly quickly, with damage 10, AP -11 (with AV rounds)

An Aguilar GX is body 16, armor 16, so that assault cannon is going to (with 1 net hit) average 4 damage (8 if you call). But only 1 net hit is unlikely, since attack helicopters are not exactly small targets.

Also, an AV rocket is a bit more threatening than that. 16P AP-6. if you connect (after scatter) it will average 7 damage. if you call the shot it will do 11.

An indirect spell at force 10 is comparable in performance, with the added benefit of having an elemental effect. You just need to be willing to take the drain.

Posted by: Blade Sep 11 2009, 08:28 AM

The problem is not only their high Body, but also their high Object Resistance. A good way to go around these problems is to use your magic to affect it indirectly. Levitate an object in the blades (or make a physical barrier there, or something like that), have a spirit materialize inside and have fun with the pilots (if there's any in there. If there isn't, let the hacker handle it)...

Posted by: darthmord Sep 11 2009, 01:20 PM

A prime example of this from another game with Magic Resistance... cast your spell at the ground and let the resulting effects take care of Mr. Magic Resistance.

Example: You are going up against a guy with 95% Magic Resistance and all you have are spells. Cast your Earthquake spell at the ground and let the resulting effects finish him off. Casting a fireball at the guy will only piss him off.

Given you want to take out a helicopter, levitate a large, semi-hard object into the rotor blades. Then let physics and gravity take over. Sometimes the secret to being an effective Mage is knowing where to apply the magic rather than having the best magic.

You want to mess up something with treads? Get something tough stuck in the treads. Got a problem with a tank? Use your magic to shove a lightpost down the tank barrel. Use magic to move a barrel of something explosive under the tank and have your gun bunny shoot it (or press the detonator to blow it).

Simply using raw magic to pump death and destruction into a vehicle... while it warms the dark recesses of my soul to funnel that much mojo into something, the resulting Drain is NOT something I'm interested in dealing with.

Posted by: nezumi Sep 11 2009, 01:48 PM

Your best solution? Another rigger.

The odds are stacked against you for magic. You have to contend with:
An OR through the roof and high armor, making most direct attacks nearly impossible
The pilot(s) hidden from view, making spells on them difficult or impossible
A wide array of sensors, making illusions very difficult
For tougher vehicles, you can safely assume they're warded, further complicating things

The advantage of magic here is versatility. You can't easily attack the vehicle directly, but you can attack around it.

1) Use spirits. By the rules, spirits can appear inside of (unwarded) vehicles, or on top of or whatnot. Telling an earth elemental to manifest above a helicopter will cause some damage. Or smurf it; send 6-10 watcher spirits to bother the pilot, adding to his driving TNs. (Our house rule is spirits can't get anywhere the caster has not been or cannot get to, to prevent this.) Nature spirits 'accident' ability is very, very good here.

2) Work the environment around the vehicle. Ice sheet is great against fast-moving bikes. 'Create rock' or something like would work well against helicopters. Or if you have a 'shoot spidey rope' and aim for the rotors, that could do some damage. Flood out streets, make passages unstable, create ambush points, whatever. This is especially good in conjunction with someone with some real punch. If you can direct the vehicle, or just distract it, that gives the guy with the RPG a chance to do some real damage.

3) Think 'out of the box'. Pilots know about trid phantasm, and know to trust their instrumentation. However, vehicles generally rely on IR and ultrasound detectors to notice things like obstacles, and oftentimes these controls will be running outside of the pilot's immediate control. Make up a spell on IR and ultrasound only, that gives the 'sound' of a wall somewhere, and cast it the opposite from where you want the vehicle to go.

4) Also consider using spells to help disguise yourself, or gain better intelligence of the area. Again, rely on your party. If you find the best sniper spot, or discover these choppers before they get close, or can make noisemakers or disguise the party, these all put you in a better tactical position.

Posted by: CanRay Sep 11 2009, 03:51 PM

Against Hard Targets (Tanks and Armoured Vehicles), you need Anti-Tank weapons. That includes Anti-Tank Spells, which require so much strain that the magician's head assplode unless they're really really good.

But this is Shadowrun. If you're facing these things, the object of the game at this point is to RUN!!!

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 11 2009, 07:42 PM

I think Sand spells might actually have a good chance of gumming up the works. Melt Electronics (Acid) seems like it may not work.

The trick with Trid Phantasm isn't really to create wholly new vistas, but rather modified ones that are to your advantage. "Clean up" a side road that you took. Or add even more debris on the ground.

It all depends on the OR of their sensors, probably 5+.

Posted by: KeyMasterOfGozer Sep 11 2009, 08:36 PM

On a run I was on, an attack chopper had our team pinned. The group's decker tried to hijack the vehicle, but the GM decided the pilot was jacked in for security with a cable, not wireless. Being the industrious mage, I conjured a spirit and sent it to materialize in the cockpit and pull the plug. Dumpshock! Crash!

Posted by: Earlydawn Sep 12 2009, 02:43 AM

I envision tanks in 2070 to be the same as today.. but with much better sensors and survivability systems. As mentioned, the drains required to cast against tanks would kill most mages, but that doesn't make magic useless. Clever use of self-exposure or illusion spells could lure the tank under a bridge, followed up by a Shape Concrete spell to dump the majority of the span on it. Even smaller overpasses should be able to effectively mobility-kill a tank. A called shot with any kind of user-made sonic or concussion-based spell should also be able to hit a tank hard enough to throw a tread.

In my mind, tanks would probably be studded with all kinds of sensors, rarely popping a hatch or opening a physical vision slit. A well-placed flamethrower or fireball spell should be able to blind its thermal gear. Also, waiting for the tank to fire a HE round and then popping a physical barrier a foot in front of the gun barrel could probably blow off external equipment and royally screw up its sensors. The radiator to the rear would probably be vulnerable to fire spells.

You've got a lot of options, but it's still fundamentally the same as having an ATGM or explosives; you've gotta be able to pick your battles.

As far as helicopters go, I would think it would be easier. If the tail rotor isn't shrouded, lift a piece of concrete in there, or, as someone intelligently pointed out, make a cylindrical physical barrier right through it and watch it shred itself apart (for this exact reason, I would think most 2070 choppers would have tail shrouds). I would also think that a sufficiently juiced lighting bolt should screw up its flight systems and force it to disengage. Other options include strong sand spells to the intakes, or using a manipulation spell to reduce air density and force it into a spin.

Why is everybody assuming that a hacker would be the guy to deal with a chopper, anyway? Just because networking is huge in SR4, doesn't mean you can literally hack the planet. The most I would think you could do would be feeding it bad coordinates on its tacnet, or forcing a nosegun into a maintnance mode or something. And the latter would probably take input from the cockpit.

Posted by: SpasticTeapot Sep 12 2009, 04:04 AM

All you need is a magna-poon and a good throwing arm.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 13 2009, 04:13 AM

You don't get to roll dice to resist the damage from a Powerbolt... If it beats OR then damage is inflicted... that Body 16 Citymaster is just looking for a Force 11- Powerbolt with 5+ SUccesses and it is toast... (the more successes the less the Force of the Spell needs to be... but for something like a Citymaster or Nightsky Limo you will probably need to overcast it to stop it in one casting... if you don't mind a softer approach, the Force 6 with the requisite 5+ Successes will generally render vehicles nonfunctional after just a casting or two...


Keep the Faith

Posted by: TeaTime Sep 13 2009, 04:41 AM

Well, with help from Edge, a Force 11 Powerbolt with 5+ Successes is quite doable. Is it just as simple as beating object restistance?

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 13 2009, 05:50 AM

That's because Powerbolt is a Direct spell. Lightning is treated like a ranged attack and I was actually wrong. You don't factor Body but rather you double its armour (p 204).

So that means a Citymaster has 40 dice to beat a Lightning spell, or any other Indirect spell.

I'm a bit confused though, it says that direct combat spells only use the Object Resistance to deal damage. That'd mean that Citymaster would have an OR6+ as a vehicle. Is there a rule somewhere that says Body becomes OR?

Nope, I've never cast a direct combat spell at a vehicle before either...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 13 2009, 03:49 PM

Agreed, it is doable, even without the Edge expenditure.... Just most probably very painbful for the caster... and very devastating to the target...

Not sure what you are asking about teh Object Resistance though... Is What just as simple as beating Object Resistance?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 13 2009, 03:55 PM

Yes, the resolution mechanic for Indirect Combat spells is different from that of Direct Combat Spells... In the case of the Citymaster, it has an Object Resisatance of 5(+) and if you beat the OR, then you deal damage directly to the object (the Citymaster in this case) with no regartds to teh Armor or the body rating...

So, for example, if you cast a Force 8 Powerbolt against the Citymaster and generate yourself 10 successes (for example purposes obviously), you would remove the threshold Hits (5 in this cse) leaving you with 5 Net hits above threshold... add these 5 Net hits to the Base Force of the Spell to obtain 13 points of Direct Damage to the vehicle... not quite enough to disdable it completely, but enough to provde a penalty of -4 to any vehicle actions taken... do this twice and the vehicle is disabled...

Note that The body of the vehicle does not ever change... the Object resistance is the threshold to affect the object... anything over the OR adds to the base damage of the spell to casue it harm...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 13 2009, 05:57 PM

Restricted Target Powerbolt(Tires)

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 13 2009, 08:45 PM

Ahh thanks for clearing that up Tymeaus Jalynsfein.

So it seems we need a Direct Physical Spell and Powerbolt isn't helpful here because it specifically uses the Body rating for living and unliving targets. And I don't think an unrestricted target one exists, but a single target "Forcebolt" would have a DV of F/2+1 (Direct, Physical, Instant).

That's all sorts of useful actually. With an OR of 5+ then there's a reasonable chance of affecting a vehicle (with board power levels) with reasonable drain.

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 13 2009, 08:55 PM

There's Slay and MAssacre for living beings, there's similar spells for things.
Use one of those for tires.

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 13 2009, 09:13 PM

What if it's a chopper? A hovercraft? A Tank?

And of course that doesn't help much when your objective is to destroy the vehicle (and people inside). A general spell solution works best.

That said, an Area Effect Demolish Tires would be pretty fun. Aim in between a couple of cars and instant traffic jam. Hmm...

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 13 2009, 09:25 PM

Ah, yes, Demolish, That was the Spells Name i did not remember.
If it's a Chopper? Try something else.
If it's a Hovercraft? Try something else.
If it's a tank? Try to get away as fast as you can and don't look back.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2009, 02:20 AM

Just a minor point... Powerbolt only uses the Body Rating for resistance if the target is alive... Objects are just a threshold... any hits above the Threshold inflict additional damage, BODY does not matter in this instance except for the number of "Health Boxes" it has...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2009, 02:21 AM

Yes, Demolish (XXXX) is a good Spell

Posted by: InfinityzeN Sep 14 2009, 02:32 AM

Don't forget the friendly neighborhood possession mage. Nothing like making the tank your personal bitch and then using it to blast all of its buddies.

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 14 2009, 02:33 AM

Hence why I wanted a generic "Force" spell as the Power-spells use the Body of the target.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2009, 02:39 AM

Please read page 204, 2nd paragraph...and I quote...

"Direct Combat Spells cast against non-living objects are treated as Success Tests; the caster must achieve enough hits to beat the item's Object Resistance (p. 183). Net hits increase damage as normal (the object DOES NOT GET a resistance test)."

So, obviously all you need to beat is OR, and BODY does not count...

Shatter, Powerbolt, and Powerball gives you everything you are looking for...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 14 2009, 02:46 AM

That's in general though. Power-spells specifically mention using Body. I know that part too, that's why I was looking for a Direct Physical spell that didn't use Body as Powerbolt specifically does.

I'm sure that the specific spell overwrites the general rules.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2009, 02:55 AM

No it doesn't... the spell description is trying to accomodate 2 types of targets... rather than re-using the specifics of the Direct Combat description provided on the previous page, it condenses it to a simple sentence... it is indicating the 2 classes of physical targets it can affect...

OBJECTS Do Not Use their BODY to Resist Direct Damage spells... Only Living targets do that... for Non-living targets, you only need to beat OR...

The reason that the "affects Living and Nonliving targets" descritive is in the spell description is to distinguish it from the Mana Variants which ONLY affect Living or Magical Targets...

Powerbolt affects Targets both Living and Non-living... Manabolt only affects Living Targets

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 14 2009, 03:04 AM

It's a Direct Physical Combat spell. It, by default, uses Body in an opposed test.

I don't see the point of making specific mention of it if it didn't also apply to non-living things with Body scores. If it did it's just hopelessly redundant and confusing. As it is written it infers that both living and non-living targets resist with their Body, possibly deferring to the standard rules for when a target doesn't have a Body score.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Sep 14 2009, 03:06 AM

Your problem is that against Non-living objects that opposed test is not longer valid, as affecting Non-living objects becomes a Success test... NO RESISTANCE TEST ALLOWED>>> in the rules... Page 204... Body is ONLY roled in an Opposed Test...

I have to say that in this you are absolutely wrong...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Draco18s Sep 14 2009, 05:39 AM

Wreck [Helicopter]

I think I made reference to that in some other thread a while back. Likely in the "new OR" bitching thread.

Posted by: Marwynn Sep 14 2009, 05:41 AM

I concede that I may be wrong.

But the spell, as it is written, does clearly say that it uses the target's body in a resistance test for both living and non-living targets. It may be poorly worded, but I think being wrong in this isn't completely my fault if that is what the writers intended Powerbolt/Ball to be. "The spell affects living targets and non-living targets as a physical spell. See Direct Damage spells" would've been a lot more clear than by bringing in Body to the mix.

As it is, and as how I read it, Powerbolt is a spell that instrinsically uses Body to resist it, regardless of the target.

Has this been errata'd?

Posted by: CradleWorm Oct 13 2009, 01:11 AM

Here are the rules on page 183 of SR4A... Step 5: Determine Effect

A spell cast on a non-living, non-magic target is not resisted, as
the object has no life force and thus no connection to mana with
which to oppose the casting of the spell (note that only Physical spells
will affect non-living objects; mana spells have no effect). Highly processed
and artificial items are more difficult to affect than natural, organic
objects. Spells cast on non-living objects require a Success Test
with a threshold based on the type of object affected (see the Object
Resistance Table). Note that objects targeted by Combat spells get to
resist the damage as they would any ranged attack; use their Armor
rating x 2 (or just Armor against spells with elemental effects) to resist
the damage (Barriers, p. 166).

The last bit talks about objects targeted by Combat spells, there is no distinction between indirect an direct combat spells here. It appears to me that if a mage was able to effect a Citymaster with 16 armor by exceeding the object resistance then the Citymaster would get 32 dice (Armor * 2) to resist the damage.

On page 204 the rules for direct and indirect combat spells appear. For direct combat spells:

Direct Combat spells cast against nonliving objects are treated
as Success Tests; the caster must achieve enough hits to beat the item’s
Object Resistance (p. 183). Net hits increase damage as normal (the
object does not get a resistance test).

This may seem to conflict the rules above, because here it says the object does not get a resistance test. This is correct, the object does not get a resistance test to determine if the spell effects the object. So the powerbolt can effect the object and then a damage resistance (not spell resistance) test occurs.

For indirect combat spells:

If the spell reaches the chosen target and it fails to dodge with
Reaction (+ Counterspelling, if available), the target then resists
damage with Body + half Impact armor. Each hit reduces the Damage
Value. If the modified spell DV does not exceed the modified Armor,
Physical damage is converted to Stun. Note that nonliving objects
resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x
2 (see Barriers, p. 166). Note that unlike other spells, Indirect Combat
spells may affect other targets that the caster cannot see if they are
caught within the spell’s area of effect.

Here the object resistance does not apply but simply resolve the spellcasting normally. To resist damage the vehicle (object) rolls armor x 2.

Posted by: crizh Oct 13 2009, 02:17 AM

Can I just interject here to counter the fallacy that you will suffer a lot of Drain from blasting Tanks et al.

This is just not the case.

The trouble with blasting tanks is the Spellcasting test not the Drain test.

Spellcasting is one of the few areas where it is very difficult to effectively min/max your dicepool. Getting 5 or 6 hits on a Spellcasting Test reliably is not so easy but once achieved you can pump them out all day with little sweat.

You only need to cast Powerbolt at Force 5 to do 5 boxes of damage to a Citymaster. Drain on those babies is 3 boxes. Most Magicians have enough dice to buy that off. Fire of four of those and it's toast.

If I were driving a Citymaster and a Mage I did not already have a bead on nailed my vehicle for nearly a third of it's damage track I would be filling my pants and bugging out asap.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 13 2009, 02:21 AM

But please not the Quote... ONLY FOR INDIRECT SPELLS... Direct Damage Spells completely ignore any armor and deal damage straight to the damage track once OR has been defeated as they get no DAMAGE RESISTANCE TEST (it is a resistance test afterall)...