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Posted by: Snow_Fox Sep 19 2009, 01:00 PM

OK I'm one of the voices, howling in the wilderness, against 4th ed but I have said that I liked the decking stuff.

I was ,finally, reading through unwired and was really worried by the hwole entertainment thing. People can live virtual lives, even a wired family all sitting around in a living room all watching differnet forms of entertainment completely oblivious to their fellows around them. In theory many office workers living in the protections of an archology could 'log on' to work while on their way. So how long until the corpers start to atrophy? I know the corps would love this-no need to go out, stay home and use corp approved entertainment, why go lcubbing in the meat body when you can do it in cyber and appear without the beer gut or in tres chic clothes you don't have to worry about staining/malfunctioning? Kid's no good at sports in the gym, well he doesn't need to wrok out harderrt, he just goes virtual and plays great.

The idea of the educated part of meta humanity becoming more and more ...flabby while the SINlesshave to be physical? Anyone else ever read The Time Machine?

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 19 2009, 01:42 PM

meh, with implant muscles, you dont need to exercise to stay fit.

i would hazard that bone lacing, muscle replacement/augmentation and similar tech would be comparable to liposuction and similar today...

and have it not always been this way?

Posted by: Evilref Sep 19 2009, 02:33 PM

This can happen now, try this for a not-unrealistic example

08:30 Get up, shower, coffee, breakfast
09:00 Go to computer in home office, login to work, go through emails, actioning replies and work as normal.
12:00 Microwave lunch, watch TV for 20 minutes
12:30 Back to work
17:00 Decide to put in a few hours of work overtime, still all at home.
18:50 Log off work, go microwave dinner
19:30 log in to WoW, open up social network sites
00:00 Finish raiding in wow, end conversations with friends, go to bed

It's entirely possible for someone to have a near-total online social and work life today. I've met couples who spend more time talking to one another (during the week) on ventrilo/teamspeak while playing an MMO than they do face to face. I don't think it's terribly healthy but it's happening.

Posted by: ShaunClinton Sep 19 2009, 02:40 PM

I kinda doubt it is a concern. I'm sure all those arcologies have gyms.

Posted by: eidolon Sep 19 2009, 03:10 PM

Wow, been a rash of posts lately that just make me want to reply with one sentence:

It's a dystopia.


So if you're perturbed by the implications, that's a good thing. It might have lost more and more of it every time it gets a new edition, but Shadowrun is not supposed to be a fairyland of rainbow colored unicorns. It's supposed to point out the negative in what is, what could be, etc. It's supposed to emphasize things that make you uncomfortable.

And yeah, there are some folks out there that are looking forward to exactly what you describe. And as Evilref illustrated, it's not that uncommon today, what you're describing. Not every part of a dystopic viewpoint is going to be negative to everyone, but by damn, something in there should be, or they've lost half of the point in writing the game world.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Sep 19 2009, 05:22 PM

Huh, and here I thought the wireless implications would be an improvement over decking when it comes to being physically mobile. Heck, in fact, why wouldn't this make it so that the cubicle goes bye bye and in stead the wage slaves now do their work from the corp approved commlinks and AR programs while either doing laps together and sitting on a bench when they need to? Think of the costs the corp would save, improved health would limit the drain on their health benefits, not having to pay for desks/cubicle walls/terminals - heck, why even outfit a room at all other than the wireless stuff? I hope you are following me on how this might improve a corps bottom line by lowering costs by going wireless and AR. VR would probably still require a certain level of sit down enviroment though, but how often does the average corp person actually need to go VR unless its their area of technical expertise? And even then, unless security required it, why not off load that cost to the wage slave, have them just VR from home in their bed, couch or recliner?

I hope I am not too far off in thinking this, my understanding of SR4A AR/VR is very limited in experience.

Posted by: Synner667 Oct 6 2009, 10:18 PM

50 years from now, in an age where machine intelligences are viable there won't be any jobs for wageslaves.

A single machine is more efficient and much cheaper than 50 staff.

Anyone trying to justify wageslaves is just trying to maintain 20th century officelife.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 6 2009, 10:42 PM

and that could make things very interesting, depending on what way the economy ends up swinging...

btw, i swear i read a novel of some kind online about such a scenario, but i cant find it...

Posted by: Apathy Oct 6 2009, 10:59 PM

But machine intelligences are harder to manipulate and control than real-life meat wageslaves. You can't effectively beat the AI if it tells you to go fuck off. It doesn't really need anything you've got, and once it goes sentient it has its own priorities that might not coincide with yours.

Posted by: Synner667 Oct 6 2009, 11:05 PM

I though the whole point of having wageslaves was to have office jobs done cheaply.
Obviously your definition of office job is very different.
Hiring a room full of people, just so you can shout at them and abuse them, and you're thinking that's an office, says something about the offices you've worked in.
Most office work does not take much in the way of brainpower to accomplish, so easily achievable with even moderately powerful fuzzylogic smart machines.

Tom Peters [business guru, among other things] thinks that most office jobs will be replaced by software within 10 years.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 6 2009, 11:07 PM

question is, will the cost of getting and maintaining the hardware and software be lower then just hiring some people at minimum wage?

Posted by: AndyZ Oct 7 2009, 12:17 AM

When the corps run everything, there is no minimum wage. If one machine can do the work of 50 people, but each person works for less than 1/50th of the machine's cost, then people working is what you have.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2009, 01:57 AM

minimum wage being the resources need to keep them living and doing the job they are needed for, not the current concept of law mandated minimum...

sorry that i was unclear, i sometimes jump a couple of steps in the thought chain...

Posted by: Warlordtheft Oct 7 2009, 02:26 AM

Answer: Not all things at present can be handled by a compuuter. Now throw in the expert systems and AI's and any machinist/mechanic/technical job is at risk. However, an AI will have trouble relating to Flesh people and while it can handle the report creation, it will not have the depth of understanding to deal with human emotion. From this perspective, wage slaves will be needed to present the report and deal with the client.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2009, 02:39 AM

heh, the AI sounds like your stereotypical IT department

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Oct 7 2009, 04:54 AM

"I take the specs, and give them to the programmers!"

"Well let me ask you this; why can't the clients, give the specs directly to the programmers?"

"Because programmers aren't good with people! I have people skills! Don't you see"

I love that movie.

Remember that in SR, programs are getting better and better at interacting with a person emotionally. If you don't believe it from the Virtual Companions, think about emoti-toys. They may well be able to be better at reading people than people are. Of course, "little" incidents like the Renraku Arcology will probably scale back whole sale replacing of meat workers with programs for a while with SR.

But there's certainly no reason that the corp can't down size a families living spaces within the arcology to 1/3 the size, the issue them a subscription service to virtual housing enviroments and entertainments (automatically debited from their salary of course). Make simple soy crap food reminiscent of The Matrix taste like New York Strip Steak with the right program added (again, for only a small fee), and you cut down considerably on the "human cost".

Posted by: Heath Robinson Oct 7 2009, 04:55 AM

I'm not entirely sure how this is unique to SR4. We've had cube farms for decades. We've had mainstream desktop computers nearly as long. Television has been around longer than even that. Telephones, have been common for nearly a century.

Sedantarism has been an official problem for the past decade.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 7 2009, 03:25 PM

I've seen families at restaurants where the children were playing handheld games or listening to music, the adults reading newspapers or playing with their smartphones, all totally ignoring each other. If they do that in a restaurant, think what the home life must be like. Our real world society is already at the place you claim to fear and you're worried that a group of game developers are taking a *fictional* dystopia in that direction? /boggle

Things are getting weird when people are dissing 4th edition because it makes use of the implications of a wireless society we pretty much already have right now.

p.s. There's a treatment under development that turns off the protein responsible for muscle atrophy. If a drug like that is under development in 2009, no one and I mean *no one* of Middle Lifestyle or higher in the Shadowrun world of 2072 is fat or weak unless they want to be. Many of the technological aspects of the SR setting are more like 2030 than 2070, but I forgive them because they have a game to balance and they're also not prescient.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Oct 7 2009, 04:02 PM

I also see it like SR 2070 has had all these set backs to their tech thanks to having to dedicate resources to dealing with disaster after disaster on like a Katrina scale. Who knows how many scientist, technicians, inventors, etc have been smoldering in their graves thanks to violence, magic, disease, or malnutrition who would have been the ones giving up the goods. I mean, how many technological marvels come out of the dystopian hot spots of our current world, other than new cheap and devious ways to kill each other?

And in some ways, I have noticed the opposite with regards to the teched out family, thanks to things like being a facebook friend with your mom, they are more likely to know what is going on in their kid's lives than ever before without even having to sneak into their bedroom, strip search it, and read their diary. It is easier than ever to track (and who knows, even actually be involved with) your children in cyberspace and meatspace.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 7 2009, 04:08 PM

This doesn't have anything to do with my personal work environment, but with the fluff. The dystopian theme of SR seems to push the idea that life is cheap and people are downtrodden. There is no minimum wage. No unions. No worker's rights. The Corps don't believe in a healthy work-life balance. They can demand a 100-hour a week schedule and get it while only paying the wage slaves a subsistence stipend in their Corp script which the employees are forced to spend in the company store. [Non-managerial] Employees who get too old and feeble to stay productive often 'volunteer' for special programs [lab rats] or are moved to retirement homes which are even more austere [though their families may continue to get fake letters from the company talking about how happy they are].

Employees generally don't resist because they've been indoctrinated from birth, because they're convinced that exile to the Barrens equals death for both them and their families, and because any attempts to cause trouble result in them mysteriously disappearing. Access to the real world outside of company housing is restricted to management. An AI generally won't have these controls on its behavior. It's got no family to hold hostage. The company can't be sure of the AI's loyalty or continued work ethic. Attempts to program loyalty or obedience into the AI aren't always successful and sometimes cause them to go insane (hello Deus!).

I absolutely agree that there are some jobs that unintelligent algorythms would handle more effectively than people. But the more intelligent they make the AI the less control they'll have over it, and the Corps are all about control.

[edit] Not all people would be in this situation. Only the Megacorps have the resources to create a self-contained SCIRE or Arcology. But the people inside that world don't know what the alternatives are.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 7 2009, 04:13 PM

We're going to get down to quibbling pretty quickly on this topic but I'll just say that many of the technological developments of the last half-century or so are the work of a tiny proportion of the general population of the so-called advanced industrial societies. My viewpoint on the subject is that the many catastrophes of the SR timeline make it very hard for governments to provide a safety net for all their citizens, which is exemplified by the large numbers of SINless and generally high poverty rates in the SR setting. On the other hand, if the world economy does not tank completely, which by the SR fluff it hasn't despite all the disasters, corporate R&D is going to chug away. I know this is a generalization, but I think that while the impacts of the SR timeline are certainly felt, it wouldn't slow the pace of technological advancement as much as you seem to think it would. All very much IMO, obviously.

Posted by: BookWyrm Oct 7 2009, 05:24 PM

Wouldn't most corporations in 2050-2070+, having liberally borrowed the idea from Japanese corps, instituted a physical exercise program for their employees? I fugured this was a given in most Corporate structures by then.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 7 2009, 05:31 PM

No, they just make the acceptance of certain "medi-chines" injected into your bloodstream mandatory in the employment contract. These medi-chines keep you fit and productive, eliminating the need for wasteful exercise periods.

Okay, I know that's a little further out than the canon SR tech level, but they'd do it, wouldn't they?

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2009, 05:39 PM

think of it as cattle, and one gets all kinds of ideas...

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2009, 05:39 PM

...

Posted by: Blade Oct 8 2009, 09:25 AM

I've been told that gymnastic was one of the tool for the creation of national identity in some countries (such as Danemark). So I'm not sure that the ideas behind physical exercises are just to have fit employees (even if that's already a good thing for the corp).

Posted by: AK404 Oct 8 2009, 10:14 AM

It's not. Group exercises are just that: group exercises. It's meant to cut down on individuality and competitiveness and foster a collective identity. I'm not sure you've ever seen one of those in action, but everyone moves at the same pace (or at least, they're supposed to); if you move too fast, you look impatient to everyone else and thus slow yourself down, if you move too slow, you're holding everyone back and thus try to catch up.

And to the OP, the problems that you've listed...they're happening now. There've been numerous books (those things that are in bookstores, somewhere behind the tons and tons of DVDs, music CDs, audiobooks, and e-readers) written on the subject of what modern multimedia is doing to our thinking processes, attention spans, and values. For starters, go pick up "The Dumbest Generation" or maybe "The Age of American Unreason."

Posted by: Ravor Oct 8 2009, 09:56 PM

As it has been pointed out, the corps don't really want a happy and healthy workforce using their wireless 'links to work while seeing the world, they want a depressed, downtroddened, and fairly sickly workforce that they can grossly over charge for third world style medical care and who more importantly, are simply too numb to get ideas about changing the world.

Remember, although the corps love profits, they are willing to run in the red for the one thing that they love even more, control.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 9 2009, 09:02 PM

Yes and no.

Yes - in case of phisical laborers. No need to make them happy; they are expendable. But some corps could think that increasing loyality of "little troll workers" may be profitable, and give them a bit better terms than competition.
Of course, phisical laborers don't need additional exercises.

Not at all - if we mean white-collars. If they are depressed, their effectivness goes down. So a bit better working terms, medical care etc. are profitable. And stress will be directed in a profitable way (read: rat race).

Without phisical activeness, people are less concentrated, more depressed and more often ill. Corps want good, concentrated and sharp-minded workers to make good programs, good marketing, good PR etc. Group exercises are relatively cheap - why not?

Posted by: Ravor Oct 10 2009, 02:05 AM

I disagree, because although they would like to be able to have healthy and happy workers for the reasons you gave the reasons that they don't want healthy and happy workers outweighs the benefits.

Tis Cyberpunk, "quality" no longer exists except at the extreme top end, and not always there either.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 10 2009, 04:49 PM

Well, it depends what kind of game style You prefer .
I think corps will do at least some things for wage slaves. I mean security (two dozen cops can watch a whole neighborhood), medical care (they don't need full-blown clinic; just something better than public hospital), school for their children (read: investment in future wage slaves). If corps would tread employees like a trash, and then one corp would give them a bit better terms... zombies from other corps would blow up own firms from inside, just to get a job in the "good" corporation.
That's a trick: corps give wage slaves relatively cheap necessities and comforts, and in exchange has a bit of loyality. Workers feel and see that corporation "cares" for them, and are less willing to escape, spying for competition, help runners... Of course all this "goods" are as cheap as possible. And more important workers get better terms. All this is a part of indoctrination process.

Back to the gym problem: I don't think it would be really hard or expensive to make many of wage slaves do some exercises. Only building some sports fields and gym rooms in enclaves and arcologies would be a major cost. But AR gym instructors? Sport guides in public library? Martial arts teachers (AR or flesh)? No problem.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 10 2009, 05:26 PM

Just look at the Popularity of the Wii Gaming Console today... Wii Fitness anyone?

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 11 2009, 01:13 AM

link it into the office network, and have a "best of" after some period...

just look at all the "reality" shows about loosing weight and so on...

Posted by: Knight Saber Oct 12 2009, 12:33 AM

They've gone the Wii one better in Shadowrun... you play Killing Floor by running around outside. You have to meet and interact with strangers if you want to win.

Posted by: Tachi Oct 12 2009, 02:54 AM

Hehe. Wasn't there something about a bunch of 'Miracle Shooter' AR players getting killed because they jumped in front of moving vehicles and off of roofs while dodging imaginary fire?

Where was that?

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 12 2009, 04:41 AM

SR4, under gear, specifically AR software...

Posted by: Kumo Oct 12 2009, 10:41 AM

There are also corp-owned professional sport teams promoting sport, probably soccer/baseball/basketball/other teams for children (in corp-owned schools) - OK, I don't believe in children Urban Brawl teams...
And sport mean also demand for equipment, clothing, nutrients... "So, most our workers can't buy regular cosmetic surgery, muscle replacement or juwenalization... but we can sell them Muscle Power-Builder™ powder, dumb-bells, steppers, Urban Explorer Jumpsuits, and still get back a bit of their wage! And we give them sense of co-working (group exercises), upgrade sense of corporate "tradition" (healthy, strong Americans in Ares; tradition of martial arts in japanacorps). And this way we bound them with corporation even MORE.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 12 2009, 03:50 PM

heh, this whole thread reminds me of how wacky the economics thinking of SR must be...

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 12 2009, 04:04 PM

Which is why I hand-wave away the most extreme corporate dystopia from my version of the SR world. The corporations are going to do whatever increases shareholder value. If that means keeping your knowledge workers happy enough to be creative, then that's just part of the cost of doing business and maintaining an edge over your rivals. This doesn't mean the corporations are altruistic, it just means that the shareholders' best interests will sometimes line up with treating the employees decently. In situations where the workers can be productive without being happy, i.e. simple repetitive assembly tasks, then I am totally on board with the employees being treated little better than animals. All depends on the situation, IMO.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 12 2009, 04:35 PM

well the thing is that i have a hard time finding out how the corps are making a profit, unless there is a large percentage of independently wealthy sinners that we never hear about.

their workers are going to be payed/given as much as they need to survive, unless they are seen as highly important to maintaining the corp edge, but that will be a zero sum game.

so who is buying the goods and services that brings in the profits?

Posted by: Ravor Oct 12 2009, 04:37 PM

Because the "corps" aren't really companies in the modern sense, they are more akin to fedual kingdoms of the Dark Ages.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 12 2009, 04:38 PM

a economic aristocracy? i guess it could make sense...

especially if each AAA corp runs its own bank(s), with a bit of lending from the big bank in the sky...

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 12 2009, 04:40 PM

That's a pretty sweeping statement. Are there no markets? Are there no shareholders? Do they not provide goods and services in exchange for currency?

Could you please elaborate?

Posted by: Ravor Oct 12 2009, 04:54 PM

The answer to your question is yes, but in name only. The markets are designed by the corps, for the corps, the only "real" shareholders are amongst the ultra rich, and the services and goods are usually low end crap akin to the cheap plastic toys you can get out of vending manchines today.

All in all, tis the Dark Ages all over again with a new coat of paint, and even that paint is faded and falling off in ragged chucks.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 12 2009, 05:19 PM

Are you are saying that the Shadowrun world is governed by a totalitarian communist-style planned economy? If the markets are "designed" then they are planned. This would seem to imply that the AAA's are all in cahoots in designing the market. If that's true, why are they hiring shadowrunners to steal/sabotage/etc. their rivals' latest product/research/etc.? If there is no real capitalist market with consumers that have choice, why are people inundated with AR advertisements for the latest and greatest products?

Everything that follows has a large YMMV sign posted on it:

I like to picture my SR dystopia as plutocracy and laissez-faire capitalism taken to an extreme. The system is rigged, but it's essentially an extremely corrupt form of capitalism rather than a totalitarian corporate state. I find trends in our current economic system scary enough that I all I have to do is project them forward in an exaggerated (I hope) manner and *poof* , instant dystopia.

As a side note on the "cheap plastic toys" theory of Shadowrun consumer goods. Over the last twenty years the standard of living for the lower two quartiles in the U.S. has climbed even as the gap between the ultra-wealthy and everyone else has soared. The advent of cheaply made consumer goods has meant that low income families can afford things that would have been considered luxuries forty years ago. Now project that trend forward into the Shadowrun timeline where you've got another several decades worth of technological advancement in materials science, fabrication methods and product design. For next to nothing, corporations can provide their employees with consumer goods and entertainment options that would seem, to us, like magical luxuries. The dystopia here isn't that life is *materially* bleak for everyone or that they're all living in Orwell's 1984. That's too obvious. The tragedy and dystopia is that the bulk of the population is so comfortable and mesmerized by entertainment that they don't pay any attention to the significant minority of the population whose lives really are materially bleak (the sinless population in the Barrens, etc.) and the tiny slice of the fabulously wealthy who are the primary beneficiaries of the system.

Edit: Which, upon reflection, ties back into the OP since what I'm describing as my pictured dystopia has all the elements the OP was worried about. So to the OP I say, "Don't worry, embrace the dystopia."

Posted by: Ravor Oct 12 2009, 07:40 PM

Don't have much time, but my quick off the cuff reply is no the corps aren't communist, there're fedual. And the only thing that they are "in cahoots" over is maknig sure that the "little guy" has not chance in hell of ever getting out from under their thumb. On everything else they are in a neverending cold war over, hence the need for Shadowrunners.


And remember, Shadowrun and Cyberpunk in general are children of the Eighties, so Eighties style dystopia is what should be the default.

Posted by: Penta Oct 12 2009, 07:53 PM

....Which raises the excellent question of "How many current Shadowrun players were even out of kindergarten by 1989?"

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 12 2009, 08:00 PM

I hesitate to go all Wiki on you, but: The social and economic system which characterized most European societies in the Middle Ages goes by the name of feudalism. The system, in its most basic essence, is the granting of land in return for military service.

I think you are using the "static social structure" that you see in both feudalism and SR society and using that one similarity to label SR's global economic system as "feudal." Maybe what you're looking for is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy Feudalism doesn't seem like a good label to describe the economics of SR.



Totally IMO, previous editions of SR were children of the Eighties, as am I. However, one of the things I like best about SR4 is that it lets the setting shed some of those dated trappings and project forward from a more contemporary viewpoint. Now, if a big part of the draw for you is the 80's style dystopia then I'm not going to tell you to change your vision.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 12 2009, 08:01 PM

I graduated from high school in 1989. I think the posters on DS skew older, but I have no idea what the mean age of SR players is.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Oct 12 2009, 09:11 PM

I don't know if this will help any as I am a newcomer to SR (I only have the 4 and 4A books) but I graduated in 2001.

As far as the economics of SR4A 2072 go, I see it a lot like the world of today only the "free" market has been allowed to run wild, you know, sorta like the latest depression. Say, wasn't there a dip in the market in the 70s/80s after a bunch of deregulation too? Rich get richer, poor get poorer, regulation of the system goes bye-bye, crashes become more and more frequent but periods of insane profits happen too and so on and so on. The biggest things in SR verse that seems to have not contributed to social-economic change appears to be resource shortages and climate change, which between the VITAS reducing world population significantly and magic restoring some of nature's dominance on climate change seem to be what prevented those end/change games. SR even screwed with religious dogma dominance too, didn't it? SRs wars probably contributed too.

I kinda see it like the world has had its economic complete collapse clock reset back to the days of just when the Train Barons started to get going, only now those lines go completely around the World. say in a Wide Web. The world balkanized but not at the same time.

Posted by: Synner667 Oct 12 2009, 09:34 PM

Except, of course, that the corp future that Shadowrun [and most cyberpunk portray] is an unworkable one.

The last year has shown the precarious nature of corporations and banks - all it takes is a single event and they tumble like dominoes.
Which leads to more regulation, not less.

Almost all the big companies from the last 100 years are gone - a result of their basic business model not being a longterm viable one.

The cost of constantly hiring staff would reduce any profits gained by a company - loss of skills, hiring costs, etc.

In a future where smart machines control drones, interface mind to machines and exist in dataspace, a $10k processor core will do the work of a roomful of low wage people [since they would not be doing anything requiring high levels of skills - data entry, basic admin, etc] - without the need for floorspace, excercise, training, etc.
To maintain that a company would rather hire and abuse a roomful of people is desperately trying to maintain an office as we have in the 2000's.


But back to the topic in hand...
...Entertainment will be the same as now - some people will enjoy virtual lives, some people will enjoy sports, some people will enjoy no sports at all.

Rich people will probably not do virtual sports, because to do real sports shows off their wealth - as now, getting hot and sweaty and actually doing something often gives way to being seen and flaunting cash.
of course, they'll undergo maintainance surgery to keep trim and beautiful - like they do now.

Poor people are more likely to do sports [real or virtual] - because they can't afford the access time.
And a lucky few will be good enough to make money from their ability.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 12 2009, 09:48 PM

thanks to semerkhet, i now have the mental vision of every major european and north american nation being in some level of debt to zurich orbital, and has to get their approval on certain economic actions...

think think WTO, world bank and IMF all rolled into one entity, have the national economies go into a nose dive from the awakening and all its side effects, then have the bank in the sky step in as a lender of last resort, based on its holding in the various AAA's.

all this then starts quietly pushing for privatization of all kinds of public services, and a unraveling of economic laws.

basically take the bolivian water privatization, but apply it to all kinds of areas, and no one reacting as they are already beaten silly by the awakening.

if one then add the issue of megacorp land being its own "nation", they can declare the newly bought waterworks and similar their land and basically claim they are defending them if ever the protests needs to be "managed".

Posted by: Ravor Oct 13 2009, 04:14 AM

Nah, Semerkhet although I enjoyed the articles you linked, I still think fedual is a better fit for the overall structure, albeit the meaning of "military force" and "land" are different.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 13 2009, 01:38 PM

Well... with augmentation, pharmaceuticals etc. workers can be useful for a longer period. Probably.
Sometimes people cannot be replaced with smart programs/machines - R&D, for example. And machines are also vulnerable: viruses, hacking, EMP...

@Ravor:
Feudalism was about "we give you food, workforce, horse etc., and if somebody (bandits/neighbors/pagans) try to harm US, then YOU put your ass into armor and go fight for our safety". Not about "you fuck with us, and we let you to do it". At last, feudalism died naturally - bunch of noblemen was no match to new weapons and trained professional armies. And feudal economy turned out to be uneffective.
Corps need internal regulations, boards of directors, army of managers - or they fall down very fast. Even Lofwyr can't control everything, everywhere and always. And directors, shareholders and managers want something in return.
Some kind of "feudal" relationships can be found between syndicates like Mafia (or more responsible gangs) and common people at their territory.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 13 2009, 02:42 PM

My question might be "Why do we care if the dystopian corporate setting of shadowrun is unlikely to really happen?" It's unlikely that half the population will die to VITAS, unlikely that corporations will become more powerful than first world governments, unlikely that the native americans will take half the US and trigger our fracture into lots of mini-states, etc. It's the setting because it makes a fun story. If you demand absolute realism in your games it's unlikely that they'll be much of a need for shadowrunners at all.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 13 2009, 03:24 PM

Strawman, meet torch.

Nowhere did I or any other poster demand "absolute realism" in the Shadowrun setting. You're just creating a nice strawman to beat on. As I said previously, I like to project our modern world into a type of dystopia that is different than the one the original writers of Shadowrun envisioned while writing in the late '80s. I also specifically gave the disclaimer that if a person likes the 80's feel to the SR setting, then go for it. For my own tastes, I like to have a *moderate* level of plausibility and internal consistency to my future settings. That's hard to do with Shadowrun, what with all the catastrophic and world-changing events you mentioned that make it very difficult to forecast future economic circumstances. Still, we make do with what we have and the SR1 vision of the future no longer works for me or my players. I post on this forum to provoke (hopefully) interesting discussion on the topic at hand. My views are not set in stone and someone on this forum might just change my mind.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 14 2009, 09:07 AM

Exactly, I agree that the fedual ecomomy is very ineffant, but the corps don't really care about that because they are more interested in keeping the "serfs" down than making as much money as they otherwise could.

As for the "fuck with us" comment, if I understood you properly the reason that the corps are willing to put up with the cold war and Shadowrunners is simply because the weapons that would be used in an actual hot war would destory everything, so tis the lesser of two evils for the powers that be. I would like to imagine that the lords would hesitate to actually nuke each other had they WMDs as opposed to throwing the lives of the serfs away in battles. (And yes, I see the corps as not only being willing but actually following in the footsteps by throwing away the lives of their peons.)

Posted by: Kumo Oct 14 2009, 09:42 AM

Sorry, but for me it sounds like "great evil overlords" in heroic fantasy of some kind . I like "realism" in 6th World, including its economy. Not "total" realism - it would make most of RPGs unplayable. If You like another vision, that's OK.
Well, most SR sources say that corps act nearly always in the name of Holy Profit. It's also crucial, if they want to dominate the world - that's why we call it capitalism. They make profit, use it to gain more power, then use that power to make more profit.


Youre right. Total war in 6th World = nuclear holocaust = no power, no profit for any corporation (or worse, all power and profit for our enemy corporation).

Posted by: Ravor Oct 15 2009, 03:46 PM

You do realize that with the new wireless 'Trix ect the entire setting has imploded assuming that you play the NPCs with ANY ammount of "realism" at all. So don't feed me bullshit and tell me that it's fine dining, my "evil overlords" (Which I don't agree with btw.) are no less realistic than your NPCs with willful blind spots.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 15 2009, 05:34 PM

Why I think it's quite possible in future and I have no problem to imagine that.

I just don't believe in "domination for domination alone". If any corp would tread all of her employees like a shit, sooner or later they'll show a finger to the corp and blow her from inside. And no indoctrination will help against it - just a serious brainwashing. So if a corp want to have loyal workers, she has to make them WANT to work for corp.

Posted by: HardSix Oct 15 2009, 11:15 PM

I'm not sure wage-slaves would atrophy physically, unless they were temps or lowest rungs. Corps would see that they get minimal exercise to stay healthy because it's cheaper on their healthcare budget and a well mind depends on a healthy body. Sure, they'd be full indoctrinated in corp policy and group think, but they'd be in pretty good shape.

Having seen all the promos for Surrogates (haven't got the books or seen it though), I'd imagine corps would love to limit outside excursions to using wireless Surrogate-like drones. The corp could keep a humanoid 'drone' pool and mid-level employees could rent them for an afternoon or evening. Higher-level employees (especially valuable execs and scientists) would probably have their own custom models. The meat body stays safely locked up in the corp compound, preventing messy off-corp-property extractions or 'accidents.' Plus, a dedicated AI/knowbot system could monitor the two-way control and prevent the employee from giving up sensitive info, while also logging anything that might be incriminating or embarassing. I'd also imagine corp-kid gangs would love to rent generic bod-drones on weekends, then go Downtown to whup some rival gang butts or just beat up SINless trogs and daisy-eaters.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 02:54 AM

Kumo I think you are vastly undestimating the impact that unlimited storage, unlimited bandwidth, magical encryption cracking, and extremely cheap blanket tracking would actually have on the ability for Shadowrunners to do their jobs.

And I disagree that my vision boils down to "domination for domination alone", tis more akin to the elites protecting the status quo in order to ensure that they are on top til the end of time, remember that in the Sixth World brainwashing is cheap and easy thanks to simsense, loyal wageslaves are a mere emotive track away, imagine getting the same high as really good sex whenever you finish a report on time.

And that is ignoring the fact that by the time Shadowrun has come about, almost no-one who remembers the old way of doing things is still alive, so ideas such as raising up against the corps are all but dead ouside of the Shadows.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 16 2009, 03:45 AM

can someone say "hide in the noise"?

if one could create a "magical" database that would spit out terrorists and others, it would be done...

but as they say, garbage in, garbage out.

i recall FBI wanting to set up a real life database over anyone buying fertilizer and diesel at large amounts.

only problem is that this database would then contain just about every US farmer...

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:59 AM

Except that Fourth Edition also has magical datasearching capablities, including magical programs that can do the searching for you, if I remember correctly extended tests are still unlimited in nature lest you apply an excellent optional rule.

Seriously though, we have fragging RFID Tags in food, and even if you run a tag easer over every piece of food you eat you'd still have them in your system since the majority of food is more than 1 cm thick. And we haven't even touched upon the other magical sensors floating around corp land.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 16 2009, 04:47 AM

iirc, the GM can claim a piece of data so uncommon that it cant be located with at datasearch...

and has it ever been stated that every last piece of food is tagged, or just that the rfid's in SR can be made so small that one could potentially (note that word) do so?

Posted by: Heath Robinson Oct 16 2009, 04:59 AM

Ravor,

You're abstracting away all the complications.

Giving any kind of reward for an causes the maximisation of that event at the expense of any unrewarded factors. For example, being rewarded for filing reports on time ensures that reports are filed on time. Those reports will be total utter shite, though.


The complexities of keeping tabs on everyone is that you still have a limited amount of manpower to go out and prosecute these crimes. You still have to filter all those events. Your filters have an optimal curve/surface through their phase space that maps to a slider between More-False-Positives and More-False-Negatives. You cannot eliminate either no matter what you do (for every criminal act there are several perfectly normal acts that are just as suspicious). Either way, Shadowrunners (who specialise in getting away with things) will be able to slip through the cracks.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 05:04 AM

Sure, but given the big brother reality television survilance that we are lead to believe exists I have a hard time with the first notion.

As for the second, it's my understanding that although not all food is tagged, enough is that tag easering it is desirable.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 05:31 AM

*sighs* Ok, the warm fuzzy feeling from earlier is completely gone thanks partially to you Heath Robinson.

Firstly if you had even the slightest ability to comprehend and remember the written word you'd understand that I HAPPEN TO LIKE FOURTH EDITION!!! There is that plain and simple enough for you?

Now with that said, despite it's strenghts Fourth Edition also has it's weaknesses, one of which being the fact that the devs have gotten sloppier about introducing things without thinking through the ramafactions of their own creation.


As for the rest of the post, you've actually managed to stumble upon a couple of decent points, of course the reports are going to be largely worthless if the corps only relied on the cookie without following up with a damned big stick for the workers who deliver more than their quota of "shite reports".

As for the far better obversation about having to filter the data you came up with, that goes without saying but unless you honestly believe that Fourth Edition is supposed to be the Care Bears and Rainbow Brite edition said filters are going to be set to provide more false positives than negitives.


And let's repeat it again class RAVOR LIKES FOURTH EDITION, BUT HE IS WILLING TO BRING UP ITS FAULTS AS WELL!


*EDIT*

Kay, the size tags were making my eyes hurt so I removed them.

*EDIT 2.1*

My eyes that is, not the tags, the other way around would just be crazy.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 05:48 AM

Oh, that's playing dirty Heath Robinson, if you are gonig to edit your posts to remove your baseless claims at least be man enough to leave a note explaining what you removed.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 16 2009, 10:20 AM

Sorry, I misunderstood. My mistake.

But normal simsense... it's still "just" an entertainment. BTLs are dangerous, so extensive use of them is risky - you can make a large percent of employees mentally disabled. Or worse - some hacker can do something really ugly with software, and next day a few thousand of wage slaves get their wetware toasted.
Of course, if a corp really want to brainwash anyone (a catched shadowrunner, for example) they don't care of such things.



I didn't mean "raising" exactly. I just think that ultra-paranoid, abused workers sooner or later start to work against their own corp - because of anger, laziness, fear etc. Low-grade employees are not a problem - corp just kick them out and hire another ones. But there wuold be a problem with talented managers or programists . And if you fire large amounts of peple at a regular basis, you will have a trouble to find new.

Yes, corps definitely AREN'T good guys. But they can make a better business, if they PRETEND to be ones.



Yes, in this point my "quasi-realism" has a little problem. But I agree with Heath Robinson - there should be enough "shadows" in Matrix 2.0 to give runners a chance to do their job. It would be harder, of course. And tag eraser is a must-have (something I don't like in RPGs).

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:37 PM

I disagree on the effectiveness of even lowgrade simsense, we are told that emotive tracks are inserted into comericals all of the time so even at cold levels they must be pretty effective. Better Than Life on the other hand is probably too dangerous for long term useage for anyone who actually needs to use their brain.

Actually I agree that the talent are treated better then the wageslaves in the same sense that minor lords were treated better than the serfs, but in the grand scheme of things, they are still little fish in the pond as opposed to the pond scum that their suborbients are. However I disagree that the corps have to peven pretend to be the good guys anymore, the population has been beat down to the point where that is no longer necessary.

As for the 'Trix 2.0, the only way I see Shadowrunners as being able to exist are if the "shadows" are being created by the rampant corruption and Eighties Style dystotian shit that the setting needs, the instant that you try to bring things into the nineties and into a real "profit is king" mindset those shadows start to disapear and the setting implodes as Runners can't get the gear they need anymore and the corps start to actually work together, at least on the surface, good PR. And the and Z-Zones are the next to go.

*EDIT*

Corrected a minor typo, long term as opposed to low term.

Posted by: Heath Robinson Oct 16 2009, 05:39 PM

You are right. I editted to remove stupid things that I said because I often have extreme lapses of judgement. I had hoped to catch them before you responded to my posts and therefore remove any cause for argument. I clearly did not.

I can only offer my apologies for what I did and said.

Posted by: CanadianWolverine Oct 16 2009, 06:07 PM

That has to be one of the things I love about Dumpshock, when I was reading the posts between Ravor and Heath, I was fully expecting a regular forum flame fest, followed by a lock and bans handed out by an admin/moderator. I am glad I was wrong.

Almost all? Which ones survived? And why did they survive? I kind of get the impression that is part of the reason there are shadows for us to run in, the corps know deep down what they do is unsustainable, they are just trying to be the one who is left standing in their fallout shelter after the fallout so they can rule the world ...

Maybe that is part of the reason behind "Replace Or Augment Your Reality!" entertainment, they are trying to make that eventual life in their bunker, which probably isn't a whole lot different than living in their corporate structured extra-territories, that much less strenuous.

Yes, I am totally comparing Fallout's Vaults and Overseer mentality to Shadowrun's AAA Corporations. Both seem to be "The Last Man Standing" and each seem to have slightly different ideas on how that will be accomplished (referring to Fallout Vault experiments and SR4 Corporate Cultures here).

Posted by: Kumo Oct 16 2009, 07:41 PM

Hmm, I consider about differences between SR and "classic" cyberpunk... Looks like corps in SR are a bit... weaker(!) Why?
1. Opponents - powers-that-be are not only megacorps:
- some goverments still can stand against corps, or even deal with them as equal partners. Especially Awakened nations, like Amazonia.
- ecoterrorists. They are much more dangerous than Greenpeace or a ragtag lunatics.
- religious/magical orders/sects - just like above.
- dragons and probably Immortal Elves - just look at Draco Foundation or Lung's Triads. And most powerful corps (S-K and probably Aztechnology) are ruled by this kind of beings; they act a bit another way than other.
2. Corporate Court. Yes, they work at corps' favor. But if any corp abuse rules, CC may vote against her.
3. Disasters like Renraku Arcology incident, Chicago, or Second Matrix Crash shook status quo a bit.

My point is that 6th World changes more dynamically than "classic" cyberpunk world. So it's harder to maintain status quo - corps have to act more carefully an flexible.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 10:23 PM

Heath Robinson hey no problem, I overreacted and got way out of line too, last night was alittle "interesting". -- Your apoligy accepted and mine extended.

CanadianWolverine yep, tis the great thing about Dumpshock, even when we are at each other throats we can be full of suprises.

Kumo I have a slightly different take on things, I figure that even the governments that seem to be standing against the corps either don't survive long term, ala Seattle's southern Tir neighbor or are able to survive because of Magic gone wild, ala Amazonia. (Of course, I'm not sure I'd call Amazonia a major power.) Terrorists have always been a problem in any cyberpunk setting, albeit they usually wear different skins. I personally don't agree that the Great Dragons and IEs really have that big of a role in the world with the exception of oen author or another having a fnaboy momeny and going crazy every once in while. Also I'm not so sure that the Arc Shutdown or Second Crash really changed all that much, but I do agree with you about the CC, as protrayed they do repersent something that isn't usually found in cyberpunk and I'll have to consider their impact more fully.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 17 2009, 03:13 PM

I didn't mean that goverments/terrorists are really match for megacorps. I think they are just a bit more powerful than in Gibson's books or in Cyberpunk 2020, and can be more than just pain in the ass for megas.

They didn't. But they shook everything a bit.

I mean, corps aren't the ONLY powerful beings in the world - just MOST powerful. That's a difference.

Posted by: Semerkhet Oct 17 2009, 03:52 PM

My reading of the 4th edition fluff in several of the sourcebooks tells me that the current developers envision a very multi-polar world with a number of roughly equivalent major powers, being the AAAs and a few of the major governments, and many lesser powers like the AAs, the Atlantean Foundation, mid-size governments, and so on.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 17 2009, 04:26 PM

The thing is that I disagree on the "strength" of the organizations you are bringing up, what we are calling terrorist groups in the Sixth World would merely be rolled into the various gangs in typical cyberpunk, and with the exception of the "no-man lands" caused by mojo run amuck the governments really only exist at the corp's convience, sure they can be a pain in the ass at times for the corps, but that doesn't neccessarily require the corps to "play nice".