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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shoe Endorsements
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 09:53 AM
Yesterday I read the chapter "Life on the Run" in the http://www.srrpg.com/products/product.php?i=10667, one of the latest Shadowrun products, written by Elissa Carey, better known as our very own Pistons. While it's probably the best written chapter in the book, it's contents confirmed a fear I have held for a very long time now concerning the direction the Shadowrun developers were taking the game; Shadowrunners turned pop culture icons. I was so angry, and though I had vented about the becoming of this monstrosity before, I finally decided to put my thoughts on how this could never be down in writing thereby gladly defying canon material, something which I'm not quick to do but feel I have to.
.: The Problem
Since when is the concept of a shadowrunner one that is commonly known by the unwashed masses? Since when are there shadowrun simsense movies and television series? How come there are ex-shadowrunners out there that thrive on their reputation as a former shadowrunner and make a wonderful career in the simsense industry? Why is a concept that is unanimously agreed upon by all parties directly involved that it requires the utmost secrecy and discretion in order to be successful turned into an exploit of cheap entertainment?
Shadowrunners exist by virtue of secrecy! Say it with me now; without this secrecy they would be nothing!
.: Discretion and Deniability
Essentially, shadowrunners exist because there are corporations, organisation and individuals who have need for the services of the subversive elements in society to further their own goals. Usually it's the corporations who dip into this pool of resources because they can pay for these relatively expensive services. But oddly enough, corporations are probably one of the few organisations who could reach the same results without attracting independent, outside resources. Why is it that corporations will go through all the trouble of hiring professional outside resources?
Deniability. The first and last line of defense in an all out war to win, and keep, consumer confidence.
Discretion is a shadowrunner's most important tool. It's what he gets paid his money for. If it was just for the sabotage, kidnapping, wetwork or datasteals, the corps would simply hire some streetcreeps to do the job. But the extra money and attention goes towards making sure the actions of the shadowrunners cannot be traced back to their employer and so, at best, their victims have to blame what happens on a bunch of people who don't exist according to the system and seemed to have operated without a clear motivation. That way the employer doesn't have to engage in a campaign to save the corporate image, which could take months, during which time the stock and therefor the profitability of the company would take a huge hit.
.: Silence Is Golden
Mass manipulation through subtle corporate doctrine will be so sophisticated that even if shadowruns would see the light of day and be laid before public scrutiny it would be spun in such a way that recollection won't ever bring memories of a corp-sponsored covert operation. Just like UFO sightings will always be swamp gas, so will a shadowrun always be nothing more than an unfortunate explosion resulting from an imbalance in improperly stored chemicals, a glitch in the security system, or the head of a research department being sent on a much needed vacation only to die in a unfortunate kayaking accident. Shadowrunners are always deluded eco-terrorists, neo-anarchists looking to discredit or even overthrow a corporation, a confused vigilante or something that creates an equal amount of sympathy for the victim corporation.
Admitting to sabotage, theft, murder or kidnapping, by any of the parties involved, would have far too many negative repercussions. Should the truth come out about the instigator, stock and public opinion would plummet, credibility would be shot and possible charges from the Corporate Court or any number of governments could be the results. Admitting to be the victim of sabotage, theft, murder or kidnapping would result in a reduction of shareholder confidence, which in turn could, potentially, lead to a loss in stock value and company liquidity. Thus, it behooves both parties to keep as much of it out of the public eye.
.: Public Awareness
Within corporate enclaves especially, but also among corporate citizens, the thought of anything or anyone trying to undermine the corp is met with painful disbelief and misunderstanding. Years of indoctrine rebuts the very notion of corporations engaging in warfare outside of the Desert Wars; "the corporation takes care of everyone." Nobody doubts it and those that do are quickly silenced and rehabilitated. Even if a corporate peon would suspect something, many of them would gladly forget what the saw or heard in order to go back to believing in a lie. People need stability and are willing to repress a lot to maintain it.
Outside of the corporate enclaves, and on the streets, people are far more skeptical, far less willing to believe in the good and the charity of corporations. But it's that same skepticism that has turned most people into jaded drones. The majority of this group is relatively poor compared to their corporate counterparts and have given up their idealisms for a survivalist mentality. They don't care what happens to corporations, or how they do business. They accept what they get fed through a trid-set and what they read in screamsheets and newsfaxes.
From corporate sponsored schools, and the corporate owned news sources, and the corporate lobbies in governments all over the world, and the meticulously thought out advertisements finally rises an image that's incredibly hard to shatter or undermine.
.: "But What About..."
"...spies and assassins and thieves and Mafiosi and all the films about hackers and other subversive elements in society!? If we know about them, and see them in the news, then why not Shadowrunners!?"
Well, because corporations won't allow a concept like that to thrive, because it would undermine the discretion and deniability that they so value. All the other subversive elements of society that you can think of, none are so rare and important as shadowrunners and anything would be done to allow them to do what they do. And in 2060 there will be the opportunity to do so by media manipulation. Films wouldn't be funded, books wouldn't be published, and television programs would be taken off the air.
The Mafia has never been a secret society, and the Free-Masons, well, though they are supposed to be, they're hardly a secret, now are they? Spies, assassins, thieves? These are all concepts that are as old as humanity but a relatively new concept as that of a shadowrunner can still be protected and maintained as a secret by regulating media, spin-doctoring the results of their exploits and demanding the utmost secrecy from the shadow-community itself.
A shadowrunner in the media...seriously...his body would be cold before the ink on the paper of his simcontract would be dry.
From http://www.wiredreflexes.com/sr/shadowrun/essays/shoe_endorsements/index.php
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 10:18 AM
Amen. Runner trid shows would probably still exist, though, although they would bear as little relation to actual running as The X-Files bears to actual paranormal events (or what they would be if the existed, if your beliefs lie more in that direction).
Though actually, there is one... hm. Runners probably wouldn't have that sort of utmost secrecy because of the ability to blame hirings on a manager involved in a personal feud or somesuch. Obviously the existence as an entire industry would remain hidden, but there could still be people...
Augh. It's too early, and I need to get some sleep before the sun rises. I'll come back with a better-reasoned reply later today.
~J
Posted by: Adarael Jan 29 2004, 10:23 AM
Well, my one complaint to that well-thought out essay is just this. In my dictionary of life, there's an entry that goes like this:
Shadowrunner, noun. One who commits criminal activities in the most silent and untracable way possible, in exchange for money. Commonly used by corporations against other corporations, though occasionally by other groups or private individuals.
See, my definition of 'shadowrunner' is pretty broad. A movie like Ronin? Shadowrunners. Mission Impossible? Shadowrunners. Ergo, I don't have a problem with the media having movies or TV shows about Shadowrunners.
Posted by: toturi Jan 29 2004, 10:44 AM
Ehhh, wouldn't governments suppress the notion of spies? Since they work on the self same principle of secrecy and deniability and discretion too?
Ergo, why wouldn't Ares accuse Aztech of hiring Shadowrunners to sabotage them if they had the proof? And reap a media windfall?
Shadowrunners ARE assassins, spies and thieves. If one exist, so must the other.
We know that there are spies. But we think our government is too noble/benovolent to use them or that our spies are patriots who sacrifice their lives for their country, but we know that the enemy will use the spies and enemy spies are all evil/malicious people. Same with corps. My corp doesn't hire runners, but I know Novatech and Renraku do. 
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 10:50 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Ehhh, wouldn't governments suppress the notion of spies? Since they work on the self same principle of secrecy and deniability and discretion too? |
Well, because governments now - or rather, governments way back when spies were first employed, didn't have the same sophistication of information control.
| QUOTE |
| Ergo, why wouldn't Ares accuse Aztech of hiring Shadowrunners to sabotage them if they had the proof? And reap a media windfall? |
For the reasons I gave above. It would, effectively cripple Ares in using their own shadowresources because it would be known that these things happen, as well as cause a dent in their stability. Shareholders would withdraw their money from corporations under fire.
| QUOTE |
| Shadowrunners ARE assassins, spies and thieves. If one exist, so must the other. |
That would be true of assassins, spies and thieves would also be shadowrunners, which they're not.
Posted by: Quix Jan 29 2004, 11:41 AM
I agree with Adarael on this one. You don't actually expect shadowrunners to exist in your reality, ie not on the trid screen. Just like I don't expect Star Trek to work as well in real life as it does on TV. Movies like Ronin or MI are always happening somewhere else to someone else. They don't happen right in my face, of course I live beyond the edge of the world, about 2 miles past, so that's not saying much. No shadowrunner is going to to live off their reputation because if all went well then the only people who know it happened are the runners and the person who hired them. Any runner who starts running their mouth is liable to get themselves heard on some corps grapevine.
Besides what simsense company wants REAL shadowrunners? They want actors who can go through a script and make it look good. People who look the look on screen. Most shadowrunners are going to be to real for this. Unless you want to do 'Reality TV'. In which case you just took your employability and shot it with an assault cannon.
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 12:00 PM
| QUOTE |
| Besides what simsense company wants REAL shadowrunners? |
You shouldn't get too stuck on the example. The same would go for any shadowrunner interacting with the media about his dealings, whether it openly or not, or whether it in the role of a technical advisor on the sim-set. The spread of the concept should be cause for retaliation.
Posted by: The Jopp Jan 29 2004, 12:33 PM
I like shoes, they keep my feet dry and warm.
Posted by: Xirces Jan 29 2004, 01:08 PM
The single most important part of what DV8 has said (BRAVO BTW) is that runners DO NOT EXIST.
THIS MEANS NO SIN - EVEN A FAKE.
Mulitple fake IDs do not make sense when they are based on something like DNA/Fingerprints/Iris scans - any sensible system (read: the ones in development IRL) would not allow this corruption.
Any ID will be traced back to the holder.
Runners simply CANNOT exist in any govt. or corp DB. That's it.
Sorry for shouting it's just this really pi$$es me off. Really.
The whole media interaction thing started with the Seattle Sourcebook and unless you're playing a media campaign (Give me back my Rockers and Reporters) it don't sit well as a primary hook. Sure, a runner can have contacts with the media, but no runner will appear on Trid or advertise their profession, even after retirement - what's the limitation on murder, arson, theft etc in the 6th world? Even 20 years after the fact you're gonna get caught.
On the other hand I have no problem with movies about Runners (or Those Who Do Jobs Like Them) existing, simply because everyone knows that movies and TV aren't real. I fully expect that the urban myth of runners would generate media interest to the point where people would claim to be runners to get respect/fear/whatever and the media feed to feed that fantasy. I can fully imagine schools full of runner wannabe kids who know nothing of the true nature of it, but think it's somehow cool and IF they meet Joe Samurai will hero worship him (think Noober and Neeber, Baldur's Gate fans).
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 01:24 PM
I think that movies with shadowrunners in them would be as close to real shadowrunner activities as things like James Bond are to real spy activities.
I also think that the average Joe Public will not be overly bothered if Ares has been accused of spying by SK in the same way that I don't expect any less of governments these days for having spy satellites or spies.
They are deniable assets. There are no ties to the corp itself. Even the money shadowrunners recieved would be virtually untraceable and Jhonsons are presumably prized on how traceless they keep their links.
Posted by: The Jopp Jan 29 2004, 01:28 PM
Well, a runner CAN have a SIN, life on the edge will just be a bit more dangerous with one. And it is entirely possible to create a fake sin that is so watertight that no-one can find out the truth behind it.
Another point, even though you have a maximized fake SIN and tripple security features it is stupid beyound belief to go out in the media and say that you have indeed been a shadowrunner. Ok, so the law can't find anything illegal or wrong with your SIN and neither can they tie you to any of your so called "crimes".
SOMEONE will know who and what you are and might just use the characters celebrity against them (A concealed rifle in a camera for example).
Another little point, how the heck do you PROVE that you were a shadowrunner? Do you brag about in media how you worked for X company doing Y to B company? IF you do that be prepared to get a BIG lawsuit thrown your way for making false accusations or some such thing, you just stepped over the line of professional ethics, never, ever talk about you clients, customers or targets. Big no-no.
Ok, so you PROVED that you are a shadowrunner and company B took back their lawsuit because you proved in court that you actually did Y to B and got paid by X. YAY! You have now become the biggest dumbass on the planet, you just admitted A CRIME. Company B just called the cops and had you arrested or called their own layers to have your ass handed to them on a platter.
Posted by: nezumi Jan 29 2004, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
That would be true of assassins, spies and thieves would also be shadowrunners, which they're not. |
That's a logical fallacy. "Roses are flowers if and only if flowers are roses." No, a shadowrunner is a subset of (assassins + thievess + spies), however existence in (assassins + thieves + spies) does not garauntee one is a shadowrunner.
I don't see what the big problem is. Yes, shadowrunners are deniable in that individual missions aren't tracable, but that doesn't mean that they deny the entire profession. It seems a bit excessive. People have been doing runs for 30+ years now, and corporate espionage is an old shoe, as it were. There will have been plenty of people on all levels who have said 'this stuff goes on'. Failed runs, the Johnsons, conspiracy theorists, rash runners who spill the beans, cops... they know and they talk sometimes. Examples will have been in the news, after three decades. It's not some big secret like all people who work for IBM are secretly extra terrestrials or something, which actually COULD be covered up forever.
If we already know that it HAPPENS, even if we don't know the details except from the failed missions and the runners who crack under interrogation, why not make a show about it? In fact, why not make a show about it which has absolutely *NOTHING* to do with actual shadowrunning? We could have something like Jake 2.0 or Alias, where it's so far off from reality, that not only does it not reinforce the shadowrun stories, but it draws the scent away from the truth. If I were CIA, I'd love Alias. And who best to hire, but some handsome guy 'from the streets' who claims to be a runner? Don't care if he really is (although if he's that smart and that good looking, he might just be), but just someone the public will believe. If Joe Shadowrunner wants to talk about the runs he did against Fuchi, who cares? Fuchi certainly doesn't. If he wants to make up a story with an imaginary corp and an imaginary mission, let 'em. If a real runner, like Dodger or someone, went public that would be trouble, but if some no name no corp hired for anything sensitive signed on, hey, who cares?
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 01:53 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi) | ||||
That's a logical fallacy. "Roses are flowers if and only if flowers are roses." No, a shadowrunner is a subset of (assassins + thievess + spies), however existence in (assassins + thieves + spies) does not garauntee one is a shadowrunner. |
Exactly as I was saying.
| QUOTE |
| If Joe Shadowrunner wants to talk about the runs he did against Fuchi, who cares? Fuchi certainly doesn't. |
That's the most preposterous thing I've heard all week. Of course Fuchi would care. Of course Fuchi would care. Not only Fuchi, but his former employer would care.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 29 2004, 02:08 PM
IIRC, there were numerous, if minor, references to shadowrunners in pop culture in the SR1 and 2 days. I don't have page numbers for you but there were always shadowtalk postings involving "...it ain't like the trid where Johnny SR takes on [abc]corp with his twin preds..." Remember, back in those days obvious armour and chrome were "cool". Where do you think the population got that notion from??
Also, I believe there are numerous references to the media glorifying runners and the work they do. In the Secrets of Power Trilogy (and any SR novel where non-runners meet runners) there's a section or two about how "...these runners act nothing like the runners you see on the trid".
You have to remember, to some, runners are percieved as gallant Robin Hood types. They stand up to the Man (Corps) and stuff like that. To a downtrodden population that's just the boost they need to get through their miserable lives...AND keep buying stuff from said corps. Which makes both parties happy. So, corps just might promote the idea of SRs and "cool". Its good for moral and profits. I'd imagine that the runners portrayed would do nothing to hurt the sponsoring corp in question though. Kinda like "renegade cops"....
There were and still are often references to "wanna-be" runners. Obviously, someone must've let the cat out of the bag if there are people emmulating the "shadow life".
Then there's the fact that there's a trendy name for "deniable, covet/infiltration/espionage assets". ie. Shadowrunners.
As far as SRs actually becoming stars...well, I dunno. The only actual reference to that I could come up with was the elf sniper from "Run Fast, Die Hard". he had a legit deal for a trid series. I imagine "retired" SRs could make a pretty could living as "consultants". Just where do you think the "Sopranos" gets its snappy dialogue from?
I don't think its that far out of the question for a SR to some entertainment work, especially if he or she is "out of the biz". Therefore, I don't think its out of the question for some runners to cash in on the media explosion.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 02:17 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
That's the most preposterous thing I've heard all week. Of course Fuchi would care. Of course Fuchi would care. Not only Fuchi, but his former employer would care. |
The clear majority of viewers of The Runny And The Shadowy will not believe he did anything of the sort. Anyone who does not know a good deal about the runs in question will not give a damn. Joe Shadowrunner certainly isn't in a position where he can do anything like that again. If Fuchi decides to whack JS, what will they gain? They would certainly have a lot to lose there.
Far more efficient is for all the parties involved to just laugh at JS, bring up the fact that he's a beetlehead and a syntatholist, lies for a profession and is just trying to get PR.
Posted by: Lilt Jan 29 2004, 02:21 PM
Essentially:
Someone has heard that shadowrunners exist
This sounds dangerous and exciting to aforementioned person
The aforementioned person writes a book about it, or makes-up a role-playing game if he's that way inclined,
Someone else reads the book, thinks it sounds dangerous and exciting
The aforementioned someone else is actually a big-shot sim producer, and decides to make a sim of it
People see the sim, and have then heard the term shadowrun.
It means heroically fighting evil (non-real) corporations to save the main character's father and get the girl.
Is this really telling people what shadowrunners are in a way that people would care?
OK: The "I'm an ex-shadowrunner" line is totally BS but unless people knew better they probably wouldn't question it. In-fact if they did know better they wouldn't question it either, they'd just either laugh or get out of range of any possible blast-radius ASAP.
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 02:30 PM
Look at current trends in pop culture: thugs, drug dealers and gangsta rappers who use their street lifestyles as a selling point to the unwashed masses.
Shadowrunners already exist in the news: "Saphyre: Runner for Hire" as a simchip and even a contact (I forget which one) offers opinions on Shadowrunners, meaning the term is reasonably wide-spread among society in general.
Which means some shoe company would cheerfully take advantage of a shadowrunner to hype a product geared towards kids. Frag, I'm suprised they didn't manufacture one like boybands today. (ackspit)
-Siege
Edit: Granted, bragging to the media about being a runner is probably not good for your health, unless you're lying and (or) go out of your way not to mention specifics.
Even so, be prepared to change your appearance if you ever want to work after that interview.
Brag about bagging Fuchi's top secret project last week and yes, you're so dead St. Peter appears and offers you advance booking in the middle of the interview.
Edit: The ex-runner line has gotta be on the most popular pickup lines in a bar, just like "I'm a firefighter" or "I used to be a Navy SEAL" or similar garbage.
Posted by: Xirces Jan 29 2004, 02:38 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Which means some shoe company would cheerfully take advantage of a shadowrunner to hype a product geared towards kids. Frag, I'm suprised they didn't manufacture one like boybands today. (ackspit) |
THere's the example of the talk show with the runners and sec teams where the spirit slams the host into the camera (isn't this in Sprawl Sites?). Later shadowtalk indicates that maybe they weren't real runners, but the whole thing was done for publicity... I'll try and get a quote on that later, unless someone beats me to it.
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 02:43 PM
| QUOTE (Xirces) | ||
THere's the example of the talk show with the runners and sec teams where the spirit slams the host into the camera (isn't this in Sprawl Sites?). Later shadowtalk indicates that maybe they weren't real runners, but the whole thing was done for publicity... I'll try and get a quote on that later, unless someone beats me to it. |
I don't remember the incident in Sprawl Sites, but by all means -- please cite the reference.
Although I do remember a trid show mentioned in Sprawl Sites regarding a crew following runners around...
All of which goes to support the idea that the concept of "runners" is alive and well in the mainstream and will most likely spawn the inevitable copycats and imitators galore.
-Siege
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 03:07 PM
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| I don't think its that far out of the question for a SR to some entertainment work, especially if he or she is "out of the biz". Therefore, I don't think its out of the question for some runners to cash in on the media explosion. |
So you've referenced a whole bunch of canon material that treated shadowrunners like pop media icons. Good for you. I did that already by referencing the Sprawl Survival Guide. It was never quite as blatant as it is now, but I never said it didn't happen in SR1 or SR2. Now, why don't you tell me why a shadowrunner could be such a high profile case and not get geeked?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| The clear majority of viewers of The Runny And The Shadowy will not believe he did anything of the sort. |
Do you think a corporation like Fuchi becomes the biggest consumer electronics seller in the world by leaving things to chance? Only one person has to blow the case wide open for the corporation to be hurting. And that can't happen.
| QUOTE |
| If Fuchi decides to whack JS, what will they gain? |
Absolute security. Stability. Shareholder confidence. Consumer confidence. A continued fucking existence.
| QUOTE |
| They would certainly have a lot to lose there. |
Which is as much as they were standing to lose when they hired the shadowrunner in the first place. What they have to lose if they don't secure the situation is far, far greater, however.
| QUOTE |
| Far more efficient is for all the parties involved to just laugh at JS, bring up the fact that he's a beetlehead and a syntatholist, lies for a profession and is just trying to get PR. |
That's acting after the fact. If you want to be efficient you make sure the need to discredit someone never happens.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Shadowrunners already exist in the news: "Saphyre: Runner for Hire" as a simchip and even a contact (I forget which one) offers opinions on Shadowrunners, meaning the term is reasonably wide-spread among society in general. |
Thanks for repeating that which everyone already knew, Siege. The entire point of the initial post was to show what a preposterous idea it is.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 03:19 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| That's acting after the fact. If you want to be efficient you make sure the need to discredit someone never happens. |
So Fuchi would have everyone killed who has ever worked for them or against them before they even get to talk to anyone? And how did they know who to kill before this guy had a press meeting about it? Of course if they know someone is going to have a huge case of Big Mouth soon they might well act, depending on how much how sensitive information the person has and how credible he is. In the worst case, they might have him killed. In most cases, it's far easier and less risky to discredit and ignore him.
And I'm still not saying that actual Shadowrunners would be popping up in mainstream media all the time, and certainly they wouldn't be saying much about what they used to do. But I think it can be taken for granted that there will be shadowrun-ish stuff in mainstream media, just like there is spy/espionage/specops stuff in mainstream media today. And it will be just as realistic as the RL stuff is. Ie ex-supermodels running around in tight latex suits blowing up scyscrapers.
| QUOTE |
| Absolute security. Stability. Shareholder confidence. Consumer confidence. A continued fucking existence. |
And most importantly: Extreme police scrutiny. You don't think someone will find it a bit ... suspicious, that as soon as someone who claims to be an ex-shadowrunner says anything about acting for/against Fuchi, he is immediately murdered? The situation isn't as bad if the ex-sr in question hasn't gotten the word out yet into the media, but in that case it's much better to simply discredit the guy instead of whacking him. Going about killing everybody isn't good for business, or we'd see a lot more of that stuff IRL.
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 03:35 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
So you've referenced a whole bunch of canon material that treated shadowrunners like pop media icons. Good for you. I did that already by referencing the Sprawl Survival Guide. It was never quite as blatant as it is now, but I never said it didn't happen in SR1 or SR2. Now, why don't you tell me why a shadowrunner could be such a high profile case and not get geeked? |
A real runner would probably never work again. If he mentions clients or targets in detail, he's dead. He's probably at risk by people who might be afraid he's going to spill beans, but Fuchi (as the current example) won't want to geek someone on general principles without need or motivation.
Now (as I said earlier), if he mentions Fuchi by name and brags how he bagged Fuchi's latest, top-secret project...yes, St. Peter will show up in mid-sentence and offer advance booking.
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
Thanks for repeating that which everyone already knew, Siege. The entire point of the initial post was to show what a preposterous idea it is. |
If you'd read the rest of my post, I drew parallels from today's society that glorifies or idolizes criminals at one end of the spectrum and elite groups at the other.
The gangsta rappers are the easiest example of this -- marketing "street cred" as a means of selling CDs, fashion lines and whathaveyou.
Does the "Saphyre: Runner for Hire" bear any resembalance to actual runners? Probably not. I'm pretty sure actual CIA agents snicker at James Bond and Sydney Bristow.
I'm equally sure plenty of people dream about being a super spy or a Navy SEAL and do their best to pretend, walking the walk and talking the talk without ever having spent any time doing either.
-Siege
Posted by: Xirces Jan 29 2004, 03:49 PM
I don't think that the two are as opposed as you're making out DV8 (hey, imagine that, I'm trying to be a peacemaker). I think the canon references to media interaction are fine. You've just got to remember that just because a someone goes on TV and says he's a runner it doesn't mean that he is and certainly doesn't mean that anyone has to believe him... it's all about disinformation.
How about involving your players in such a run? Some crank IS giving away secrets to the media which may cause problems for your team - do you shut him up, find out his sources, help him avoid the other runners who are gunning for him? There are some nice possibilities without suspending too much disbelief.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 29 2004, 03:52 PM
| QUOTE |
| DV8 Posted on Jan 29 2004, 03:07 PM QUOTE (kevyn668) I don't think its that far out of the question for a SR to some entertainment work, especially if he or she is "out of the biz". Therefore, I don't think its out of the question for some runners to cash in on the media explosion. So you've referenced a whole bunch of canon material that treated shadowrunners like pop media icons. Good for you. I did that already by referencing the Sprawl Survival Guide. It was never quite as blatant as it is now, but I never said it didn't happen in SR1 or SR2. Now, why don't you tell me why a shadowrunner could be such a high profile case and not get geeked? |
I was merely setting the background for you. You're initial post indicated that you thought this was a rather new and increasing trend. I wanted to establish that this has been going on from SR's inception. Its just taken this long for the idea to go form "media icons" to "spokes persons." So, yes, Good for me.
And while I'm slinging the e-sarcasm, there's no need to take that tone w/ me, pal. You've been around here long enough to know that when you post your thoughts, everyone is not going to hop on your band wagon. Some will agree and some will not. I, personally, do not. But I don't that makes your points any less valid.
Well, it seems to me that it was always blatant. Canon material just never focused on the benefits of popularized 'running. If there are a number of references in official material to state that shadowrunning has been mainstream for some time its only logical that the power brokers of the world would capitalize on that that and start using 'runners or actors caliming to be 'runners as spokes persons. Where's the profit in geeking your spokesperson?? Where's the profit in geeking your competion's spoke person if it leads to a shadow war??
I noticed Ares never geeked the stars of "Against the Hive." No profit in it.
I don't think the SR in question need to be as great as, say, Fastjack. Look at Anna Kornikova. She's a lousy tennis player but rakes in the dough from endorsements b/c she's so marketable. The same is easily true for SRs.
If you want a reference of a high profile runner, look at the elf sniper in "Run Hard, Die Fast". As I already mentioned, he was semi-retired but that Argent fellow had no qualms about using a well known face.
Did you specify in your post that the runners in question had endorsement deals while still running the shadows?
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 04:25 PM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| In most cases, it's far easier and less risky to discredit and ignore him. |
That's, of course, a good point. But my hypothesis says that they will act even before anyone even thinks of opening their mouths. They minimise the chance of anyone being stupid enough to open their mouth by demanding the utmost secrecy. If someone does have the audacity to open Pandora's box, then you're right, the way they would react to that depends on their ability to spin the information when it comes out.
| QUOTE | ||
And most importantly: Extreme police scrutiny. You don't think someone will find it a bit ... suspicious, that as soon as someone who claims to be an ex-shadowrunner says anything about acting for/against Fuchi, he is immediately murdered? |
You must've misunderstood me. Murder isn't the only way a corporation could act after the case has been blown open. But let's get one thing clear, there are also quite a few things they can do before the case blows open. And it's those things that I keep talking about. I think they will do everything in their power to keep the public eye focused on...whatever, and off their subversive operations, and they will do a much better job if nobody knows that such a thing exists. If people can't give it a name, don't have a definition for it, it becomes far harder for them to piece together a seemingly unconnected string of "accidents" and "security glitches." Control the flow of information and you control a society.
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| If you'd read the rest of my post, I drew parallels from today's society that glorifies or idolizes criminals at one end of the spectrum and elite groups at the other. |
You still don't seem to get the core of my hypothesis. You keep comparing modern day society, and what we know to society in 2060, in which corporations and influentials would have radically more sophisticated methods of keeping things a secret and spindoctoring those bits of information that would leak out.
How do you know that we don't have things like these going on today? Perhaps the world around us is far more pittiful than we think, and it's just the success of governmental and corporate spindoctors that keep us docile. We wouldn't know this because all the information we'd need to put together that dissociated knowledge is controlled by those who are bent on preventing us from knowing.
Sure, we know about gangsters and thugs, we know about special forces and secret service agents...but those are relatively well known concepts harking back from the days of old. In order to cover something like that up to the point where people couldn't imagine it, we'd have to build a time machine and erase those steps from the memory of our forefathers, it should be erased from the pages of history books.
But shadowrunning is a relatively new concept. Still pretty undefined, still mallable, and has only been around for the last, say 20 years. If the corporations who started out hiring shadowrunners had thought about it before hand, they'd have kept this sort of shit a secret. A select group of individuals would be in the know, while others would be kept out of the loop to ensure secrecy.
How did other corps started noticing? They were they target of a repetition of attacks that bore the same mark. They pieced two and two together because they had undoctored information to analyse. Slowly that information trickles down into the shadows, to those few people that make up the shadow-community. A few fixers, a few streetdoctors, a few people acting as runners, and hey presto, you've got a shadow community in which all parties involved keep the truth from the masses. An unspoken agreement that if this should ever see the light of day it wouldn't be beneficial to any of them.
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 04:31 PM
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| Did you specify in your post that the runners in question had endorsement deals while still running the shadows? |
While you had no way of knowing it, I was being facetious.
Posted by: CoalHeart Jan 29 2004, 04:32 PM
A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd.
Yea yea sounds all fancy and superman. Basically waht I mean is that a good runner doesn't earn a reputation because he does his job so well no one has any clue he did it at all. No shots fired. Sabotaugue seems like a regular accident. Wetwork seems like natrual causes, and so on and so forth.
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 04:36 PM
| QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
| A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd. |
No, not Swiss, they had to give up the anonymous bank accounts some years ago. Luxembourgh, or perhaps somewhere in the Caribean League.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jan 29 2004, 04:39 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) |
| Sure, we know about gangsters and thugs, we know about special forces and secret service agents...but those are relatively well known concepts harking back from the days of old. [...] But shadowrunning is a relatively new concept. |
At least as far as espionage is concerned, it's about as old as capitalism -- perhaps around 300 years old. I, at least, have always considered it common knowledge that certain firms do "operations", either themselves or through private operators, the main purpose of which is industrial espionage. Certainly industrial espionage itself happens all the time, and I think everybody knows it does?
Now if these guys started blowing shit up and murdering people in addition to doing just espionage, I think someone would have some sort of clue. Not much clue, but they don't need much clue, just enough to make it trendy.
Also, special operations units have done a lot of very shadowrun-ish operations in many places. Industrial sabotage was very common at least in the late-WW2 France. If something like that started happening again, on a world-wide scale no less, people would very quickly start suspecting stuff. Not specific stuff, just stuff in general. They'll figure that someone must have done it, so they might as well start calling those special someones "shadowrunners".
I've always though of shadowrunners as the name medias have started using. It just feels so silly... I certainly wouldn't call myself a "shadowrunner" if I did that sort of thing.
| QUOTE (CoalHeart) |
| Sabotaugue seems like a regular accident. Wetwork seems like natrual causes [...] |
Perhaps to outsiders, perhaps for a while. But look at stuff like the death of http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/ron-brown/ -- even things that certainly are accidents will rouse loads of suspicion. If that kind of thing actually happened a lot, and they actually were murders, it wouldn't take long for people to get a clue.
They wouldn't be capable of proving anything, not if the job's well done. But they could suspect something. That's enough for movie-makers.
Posted by: nezumi Jan 29 2004, 04:46 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
That's the most preposterous thing I've heard all week. Of course Fuchi would care. Of course Fuchi would care. Not only Fuchi, but his former employer would care. |
Yeah, that's my bad. I meant the corp that went under (and I think Fuchi bought it). That's my fault for forgetting names. A megacorp that's still doing well might complain, however one that's bankrupt and gone is a lot less likely to say much.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jan 29 2004, 04:47 PM
| QUOTE |
| CoalHeart Posted on Jan 29 2004, 04:32 PM A good true real pro shadowrunner has no reputation. No one's ever heard of him. He's just a name and a numbered swiss bankaccount. No one really knows his face, no one can point him out in a crowd. |
I thought it was a runner's rep that got him jobs...I guess it all depends on who knows your rep and what said rep is....
No one knows your face? Except your fixer(s), arms dealer, your bartender/bouncer buddy from your gang days, the rest of your teammates, a coupla Johnsons, the corp exec you "transfered" last year, your ex-significant other, the little old lady that owns the doss next to yours and feeds your cat while your "travelling for work", and the kid at the coner Stuffer that sells you your Llama Lights....Did I forget anyone?
Posted by: Siege Jan 29 2004, 04:54 PM
| QUOTE (DV8) | ||
You still don't seem to get the core of my hypothesis. You keep comparing modern day society, and what we know to society in 2060, in which corporations and influentials would have radically more sophisticated methods of keeping things a secret and spindoctoring those bits of information that would leak out. How do you know that we don't have things like these going on today? Perhaps the world around us is far more pittiful than we think, and it's just the success of governmental and corporate spindoctors that keep us docile. We wouldn't know this because all the information we'd need to put together that dissociated knowledge is controlled by those who are bent on preventing us from knowing. Sure, we know about gangsters and thugs, we know about special forces and secret service agents...but those are relatively well known concepts harking back from the days of old. In order to cover something like that up to the point where people couldn't imagine it, we'd have to build a time machine and erase those steps from the memory of our forefathers, it should be erased from the pages of history books. But shadowrunning is a relatively new concept. Still pretty undefined, still mallable, and has only been around for the last, say 20 years. If the corporations who started out hiring shadowrunners had thought about it before hand, they'd have kept this sort of shit a secret. A select group of individuals would be in the know, while others would be kept out of the loop to ensure secrecy. How did other corps started noticing? They were they target of a repetition of attacks that bore the same mark. They pieced two and two together because they had undoctored information to analyse. Slowly that information trickles down into the shadows, to those few people that make up the shadow-community. A few fixers, a few streetdoctors, a few people acting as runners, and hey presto, you've got a shadow community in which all parties involved keep the truth from the masses. An unspoken agreement that if this should ever see the light of day it wouldn't be beneficial to any of them. |
I'm a little confused as to the core of your hypothesis, but I'll take a stab at what I think you're arguing.
In today's society, trends and fads manifest themselves almost overnight. Popular media can bombard us with images and sounds nigh-constantly.
Now, imagine sim tech where you can "live the dream".
Shadowrunners aren't dissimilar from the fundamentals of spies working against governments (today) and even industrial espionage (again, today).
Do I believe an entire subculture could appear overnight, all embracing and endorsing the trade-marked phrase "shadowrunner?" Probably not. Common slang notwithstanding, I suppose. How did they get the moniker? Again, I don't know.
However, I think a mega-media company looking for the "next big thing" might take an idea from a corp security report that might have actually coined the phrase "shadowrunner", consequently spawning trid-trash like "Saphyre: Runner for Hire" and if it made any kind of reasonable profit, it would have spawned sequels and copycats. Look at CSI for pity's sake.
Shadowrunners combine aspects of spies and criminals and all sorts of exciting stories that middle-class suburbites would eat up by the truckload.
Fuchi may not like runners, but I've yet to see a company turn up it's collective nose at a potential profit center -- certainly for the marketing and entertainment people.
-Siege
Posted by: DV8 Jan 29 2004, 05:08 PM
Guys, carry on the discussion. I'll be back to participate eagerly in about 12 hours. Thanks so far for the criticism and the discussion. I'll pick up where I left off in 12.
Posted by: BitBasher Jan 29 2004, 05:39 PM
For the general populace, a SR is absolutely nothing more than a hardcore criminal. There is no positive side whatsoever. The only interaction Joe Public would have was the negative effects of runs, Uncle Sec Guard wounded or killed, Aunt Research Scientist Kidnapped, Grandpa Ted's life work stolen. Shadowrunners do nothing but harm the security and comfort of the average citizen. There are virtually no positive effects.
Also, virtually all media companies are owned by the megas. According to shadowbeat on TV shadowrunners are regularly portrayed as unshaven callous criminals that are caught by the "good guy" corp security teams defending the honor and integrity of the corp. See the episode descriptions in Shadowbeat.
The vast, vast majority of the public will never see any media that's not corp provided, as half the world or better works for one of the big 10. Source, Corporate Shadowfiles. 50% of the earth's cashflow is controlled by the big 10.
The shaowrunners will appear in media as the corps WANT them to appear in media. period. For corps to work efficiently they have to make it look like they are the good guys, that dont hire criminals and the other corps send the bad guy SR's against you. That's the entire point of spinning up the corp image to your employees.
Posted by: Jpwoo Jan 29 2004, 05:55 PM
DV8 seems to be saying that any real shadowrun would be swept under the rug and locked down so tight that the concept of intercorporate espionage never reaches the mainstream thought process. That corporations have grown in power to such an extent that the media dynamic that we live in now has been altered to such a point that the mainstream media, including entertainment in all its popular forms are controlled by near omniscient corp gods.
In the world we live in now, corporations are weak compared to our governments, the king of the hill today can take a fall and be next decades Bethlehem Steel. Public opinion is very important to corporations right now. So word of corporate espionage would blow up a company about as fast as shady deals blew up Enron. However we don't have a problem with the idea that our government has intelligence agencies spying on other governments, in fact we like it, it gives us a sense of security.
In SR times, Governments are weak, and Corporations are the rocks that people look to for support. If you are a corporate wage slave you depend on your corp for support rather than the government. The corporations in SR are like giant disembodied nations largely functioning autonomously from oversight. So while I see corporations playing the reasonable denyabilty card lots, I don't see them bothering to go to the effort of stuffing the Djinn back in the bottle every time they hire a runner. Public opinion isn't as big a deal, one corporation defending itself covertly from another would be no different than our CIA or NSA protecting america now.
Real Shadowrunners as celebrities? That is a doubtful prospect. The admitting you commit crimes factor is a big one there. The never working again for the rest of your life factor is big too.
Faux Shadowrunners are celebrities? I am sure that this has a certain appeal but it doesn't dominate the culture. People will always be interested in crime, violence and sneaking around. That is why we play SR right? So I'm sure there will be someone out there cashing in on it.
The only real life thing here that I can think of off hand is Micheal Mitkin (sp?) the famous hacker. He has managed to parley his illegal activities into a minor celebrity and makes a tidy living off his reputation. I wouldn't see a shadowrunner getting any more popular than this, a curiosity to those who are interested in such things. Certainly no shoe deals in their future.
Posted by: Shadow Jan 29 2004, 06:06 PM
I am with you DV, in a business where silence, security and discretion is an absolute imperative, I doubt there would be Shadowrun shoe endorsements.
Posted by: Deep Blue Jan 29 2004, 06:13 PM
What about shadowrunners with Full-X simsense implants?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 06:45 PM
On a tangent, Deep Blue, Knight did not take Euphoria, it was an unnamed team of runners.
~J
Posted by: Req Jan 29 2004, 06:52 PM
| QUOTE |
| The only real life thing here that I can think of off hand is Micheal Mitkin... <snip> |
Kevin Mitnick? http://www.freekevin.com
Personally, I'd think there would be loads and loads of Fake Shadowrunners. All over the media, especially sims. I'd think that the studios owned by Ares would have loads of simchips with Plucky Shadowrunners Fighting the Evil Japanacorps, or whatever. It's too much of a moneymaker not to produce.
And, of course, real shadowrunners can't handle the emotive tracks, don't know how to act, don't look pretty for the camera, and wear too much armor to show the requisite amount of cleavage, so there's not so much work for them in the industry.
Posted by: BitBasher Jan 29 2004, 06:58 PM
Theyre called wannabees =)
And yeah, according to the line in the Stree Sam theres numerious wannabees for every real runner, usually street/gang types.
Posted by: Deep Blue Jan 29 2004, 07:09 PM
| QUOTE |
| real shadowrunners can't handle the emotive tracks |
What about washed-up simsense stars that turn to shadowrunning to support their growing drug habits? What about shadowrunners who have good acting/intimidation/bluff/etc. skills (you know, the ones that impersonate and/or manipulate people to get past security)?
Posted by: Req Jan 29 2004, 07:37 PM
| QUOTE |
| What about washed-up simsense stars that turn to shadowrunning to support their growing drug habits? |
They're all dead, no questions asked. You don't learn how to be a ninja in acting school.
| QUOTE |
| What about shadowrunners who have good acting/intimidation/bluff/etc. skills (you know, the ones that impersonate and/or manipulate people to get past security)? |
If you've read SSG, you'll know that they talk about a very specific skill, being able to generate real emotion on demand, as Full-X simsense rigs record an emotive track as well. I tend to think that bluffing security isn't really in that same league. Convincing John Q Secguard that you belong there isn't the same as actually feeling it.
Posted by: Dax Jan 29 2004, 09:24 PM
Well, I can partially see what DV8 is getting at. Actual Shadowrunners stepping into the media spotlight is absurd. Someone like that would be dead before he could cash his first paycheck.
However, Shadowrunners being portrayed in the media, just like spies, gangs, organised crime, and other such groups are portrayed in our media, doesn't seem out of the question to me.
With independant news groups such as News Net (which are not under the thumb of any mega corp I might add), would probably love to splash a story about runners across the media, and they probably did at one point. That's where the "bug" was planted so to speak. In the years since then the mass media has probably taken the whole concept and run with it, creating a whole gaggle of sim sence stars who play Shadowrunner roles beacuse it takes in the cred.
Though here's another thought that everyone might want to chew on. Everything I've read about these "Shadow Sims", seems to indicate that they rarely seem to portray the Shadowrunners in a positive light. I belive this was brought up before by someone. So think about it. The Corps finance these projects to incite distrust in such individuals among their own loyal corporate citizens. Think of it as Corp propaganda taken to the next degree.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 09:29 PM
At least running has never gotten as silly as, say, Gingerbread Man.
~J
Posted by: Rev Jan 29 2004, 09:30 PM
From what I recall of fairly early shadowrun 2 (which is when I started to play), sourcebooks like corporate shadowfiles indicated that the general population did not even know about/believe in the big ten megacorporations. The game had a bit of secret society grand conspiracy edge to it.
I think it is clear that it has drifted away from that to a fairly large extent, but still a gm can get back to that without completely tossing everything in the new books.
Posted by: JongWK Jan 29 2004, 10:03 PM
Check Shadowbeat's TV section. The shows that feature runners are sooo biased and unrealistic... THAT's how the public sees them. THAT's how Zoe saw them (maybe she was a little smarter and had a little more information, but still he was shocked as Hell when realizing what was it all about).
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 29 2004, 10:04 PM
This is a good point. A lot of people don't think of XYZ corporation being connected to Ares or Mitsuhama or Aztechnology, just like a lot of people nowadays don't think much in terms of the overall parent companies, just the applicable subsidiaries.
~J
Edit: At this point I'm too tired to remember specific evidence backing it up, but my impression has always been that Joe Public knows about Shadowrunners. The bit that Joe Public misses is that runners don't run around hitting corps for no apparent reason, but are hired to do so by other corporations. That's the bit that would be the big secret.
Posted by: OurTeam Jan 29 2004, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 29 2004, 05:47 AM) |
| If Joe Shadowrunner wants to talk about the runs he did against Fuchi, who cares? Fuchi certainly doesn't. |
Good point nezumi. As the http://timeline.dumpshock.com/ indicates, Fuchi went out of business in 2060. Any real or make-believe shadowrunner who wants to move into the public eye can make up stories about how some unnamed executive at Fuchi hired him to do some really exciting job against some unnamed corporation.
Who is to complain? Good point.
Posted by: Adarael Jan 30 2004, 12:19 AM
Just as a side note, people keep saying 'Shadowrunning has been going on for about 30 years now, word's bound to get out.' Au contraire, mon frer...
Shadowrunning has been going on for about 90 years, actually. 'The hell,' you say, 'That puts the first shadowrunners in the 1970s!'
Well, yes, actually. The first real takeoff of industrial espionage (though not the FIRST cases of it by any means) took place in the 1970s, with the electronics revolution taking place in the US, Germany, and the Far East. This was the period of time when companies first realized that investing in a few private individuals to make off with trade secrets could really pay off - millions of millions of dollars in possible profits for an investment of only a few thousand.
Does it really matter if a 'shadowrunner' is making off the some kind of 'new, experimental headware' or an 'independent industrial espionage expert' is making off with 'technical whitepapers and prototype hard drives'? No, no it doesn't - you're describing the same act, the same process and essentially the same result.
Ergo, we know about shadowrunners now. We don't call them Shadowrunners, because, well... we're not trying to sell an RPG. In 2060, the business has exploded - a massive boom of these opportunities. I just don't see why, in 2060, people should know NOTHING about something they know about now. I mean, sure, with corporate media control, the average joe's gonna know less - but you can't erase the CONCEPT of it. Why?
Well, quite frankly, there will always be people like US. People who are interested in the fantasy and the supposed glamour of the lifestyle.
Posted by: Czar Eggbert Jan 30 2004, 01:27 AM
Just a quick insert since I don't have time to read everybodys posts. Shadowrunners have been the the fictional media of the SR universe since it's conception. Read "Never Deal With a Dragon", one of the first novels. At one point the main character, then a sariman, is watching the shadowrunner Trid show. If I remember correctly there are hints and innuendo about such shows in almost all the SR fiction. In fact newbie runners are chided on thinking that being a SR is a glamorous job like on the Trid.
As to why would they be in popular fiction of the time, it's easy. You can not control the spread of information on the Matrix, just like you can't control the Internet. Someone eventually is gonna realize that they can make a buck off of a concept, and corporations, being all about the buck, or nuyen, will do it. That, and the fact that for every good SR, one that keeps his head down and his ops quiet, there are 50 who don't. The news can only be covered up so much. And why would Ares News Network cover up a SK fragup story? Or the other way around.
-Czar Eggbert
Commin' outa my Shell
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jan 30 2004, 01:30 AM
I think it's shortsighted to think that shadowrunners aren't known to everyone because it actually does help manipulate society to think that there are these mercenary covert (clandestine, too, usually) operators that need to be stopped at all costs, but in actuality are used by everyone.
I also think that the idea of a massive media control conspiracy is fallacious for no other reason than how one you get further and further from the top level of a Big Ten corp, and further you live from an arcology or totally bottled-up enclave the more likely that people are going to know about this stuff for no other reason than manipulation is a two-way street. For every AAA corp trying to brainwash its citizens, the other 9 are trying to do the same for their own purposes, and this gets more overt and widespread as it becomes easier further down the organization chart--and in the process, other sources also add their voices and sooner or later real information gets out sooner or later and some people learn things. Even Red China (or even better, the Evil Empire itself) can't keep everyone off the parts of the Internet that it doesn't want them to see, or other sources of information getting out--especially with other countries (namely, ours) subverting them with things like Voice of America and free Anonymizers.
The funny thing about politics is that people are willing to destroy themselves a little just to go after their internal enemies, let alone their foreign enemies (case in point, the "outing" of a CIA NOC for no legitimate reason other than political). People will always out secrets, gossip and random information to the media--especially an "unfriendly" media--for an infinite number of reasons (i.e., A U.S. Senator put it best when commenting on the passing of Katharine Graham and her paper, the Washington Post, he said something to the effect of, "The Select Committee on Intelligence meets in a bugproof room with [x] inch thick steel doors to hear testimony from the intelligence community, but inevitably the testimony we would hear in there would be the same thing I read on the cover of the Washington Post that morning.").
When you have a multi-polar world like the one in Shadowrun there are too many major social issues that just aren't going to stay a secret for long. Remember, the population at-large learned about the truth in Chicago after the Bug City download on Shadowland was publicized, it stands to reason that for many news outlets, it wasn't out of magnanimity or a commitment to the public trust; it was to make the UCAS and Ares look really, really bad.
And occassionally there are going to be ex-runners who for one reason or another go legit (the sniper in Odom's horrendous novel), or go public (even if they are in hiding) for various reasons. I can't believe that there isn't a single runner who hasn't done the equivalent of publishing a book like Bob Baer (who by all understanding is the real deal, and is really "ex") did for whatever reason from magnanimity to settling scores to making cash. OF course, there are also a thousand wannabes and never-weres for every real runner anyway, and even moreso for a SR eqv. to Baer.
There are probably hundreds or thousands of people who think they are runners in Seattle, and the one thing I liked in TT was that it confirmed what I suspected: There are probably between 100-200 "real" runners in Seattle, something I can believe from being on Shadowland for the better part of a decade now. For all of the thousands of people who used it, and dozens if not hundreds of runners over the years there have probably been a few dozen "real" runners and, oh, about twenty PCs who are of the level that would qualify them as Prime Runners. But everyone who wasn't thought they were (incl. all of mine) at least shadowrunners unless they knew better for other reasons (e.g., they were gangsters, mercs, etc.). And I don't doubt some of them would go public in one way or another just because they could.
Posted by: Siege Jan 30 2004, 03:00 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jan 29 2004, 05:39 PM) |
| For the general populace, a SR is absolutely nothing more than a hardcore criminal. There is no positive side whatsoever. The only interaction Joe Public would have was the negative effects of runs, Uncle Sec Guard wounded or killed, Aunt Research Scientist Kidnapped, Grandpa Ted's life work stolen. Shadowrunners do nothing but harm the security and comfort of the average citizen. There are virtually no positive effects. Also, virtually all media companies are owned by the megas. According to shadowbeat on TV shadowrunners are regularly portrayed as unshaven callous criminals that are caught by the "good guy" corp security teams defending the honor and integrity of the corp. See the episode descriptions in Shadowbeat. The vast, vast majority of the public will never see any media that's not corp provided, as half the world or better works for one of the big 10. Source, Corporate Shadowfiles. 50% of the earth's cashflow is controlled by the big 10. The shaowrunners will appear in media as the corps WANT them to appear in media. period. For corps to work efficiently they have to make it look like they are the good guys, that dont hire criminals and the other corps send the bad guy SR's against you. That's the entire point of spinning up the corp image to your employees. |
"Saphyre: Runner for Hire".
At least some media-entertainment groups publish non-vile runner shows. Even if Fuchi absolutely despised runners, if the hot new trid subject was "shadowrunners go a-looting", far be it from the indifferent corporation to turn it's nose up at a new revenue source or profit center.
It's been pointed out before that James Bond and Sydney Bristow have _nothing_ in common with real life spies, but the public eats it up. CSI is a highly fictionalized drama regarding forensic science, but so immensely popular -- to the point of three or four spin-offs and copycats.
-Siege
Edit: For clarification
Posted by: toturi Jan 30 2004, 03:39 AM
Not to mention Law and Order.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jan 30 2004, 06:30 AM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| It's been pointed out before that James Bond and Sydney Bristow have _nothing_ in common with real life spies, but the public eats it up. CSI is a highly fictionalized drama regarding forensic science, but so immensely popular -- to the point of three or four spin-offs and copycats. |
Heh. I know a bunch of lawyers (mainly criminal defense lawyers, natch) who love CSI or CSI:Miami, but none like both and tend to hate the other one.
As for L&O... That show and its spinoff are pure drek. Especially the one with D'Onofrio. That one's just an insult to any person's intelligence.
I'm sure that shadowrunners are shown the same way. No one on TV sees them doing days of legwork, sitting around for the decker to finish doing some basic research (well, unless they can throw in a firefight, but just for them to check Shadowland? Nah.) and waiting for their gear, recovering from cyberware installation or following the world's most boring man day after day so they can extract or exploit him later.
Posted by: snowRaven Jan 30 2004, 10:50 AM
Shadowrunners are basically nothing but a specific 'branch' of professional criminals.
Now, I can't speak for other places, but here in Stockholm the established professional criminals aren't invisible no-bodies no one knows exist. Granted, joe public doesn't recognize them or know who they are unless they screwed up big time and made the news. But the bouncers of most popular clubs recognize them, as do the club owners. They have to. Tjey and their bodyguards aren't stripsearched, aren't denied entry to a club, and are even welcomed and treated well. Why? Because they have Money. Because they have Power. Because they might (and occassionally do) retaliate if they are denied. You don't mess with those people, and in order to not mess with them, you have to know who they are. Alot of them are also known to the police, of course, as suspects and by rep and through undercover ops; but they may not have any evidence to nail them, or they are waiting for more juicy stuff before they do. I don't imagine this is any different in any other bigger city.
Now, I'm not saying that every criminal in stockholm is recognized and known by reputation in every bar, but the bigger ones are, and the 'wanna-bees' that hang around them. This includes organized crime, gangs, drugdealers, and their people. Not quite shadowrunners, I know, but in some cases the two worlds overlap.
In 2060, alot of runners will have connections with said criminals, and some will even be both. The 'in-crowd' will know runners on sight or by rep, and alot of people will take care not to step on their toes. If you go back to the early days of the game, most jobs came by mr.johnson sweeping through the local 'runner-bar' looking for talent. Maybe a bit oversimplified, and not the best idea of the developers, but it does fit into the existing criminal world. Want something done? Talk to people you know, who might know people, and then you can go drop some names to those people and be directed to the right table at the club.
A runner without a rep - or any criminal without a rep - will not get many jobs at all. If you have no info on Joe Runner, he may be a nobody who couldn't get the job done in a million years; he could be a spy from a rival company; he could be any number of nasty surprises for you if you hire him. Therefore, you hire people you are satisfied will get the job done. You may not know them personally, but someone you know has to vouch for them, and that means someone has to know them, and know what they did. Your brag sheet may not include all the details of your runs ad employers, but those in the know will be able to piece together such information some of the time. It might even be in LoneStar's files. But without evidence to back it up, it means nothing - except reputation. Granted, this is a fine balance between being known well enough and being too well known. And to be known for the right things.
The general public today knows there are criminals and syndicates and gangs and spies. They don't, however, know who these people are (with some exceptions; and I can bet that one or two 'alledged' shadowrunners would be known to the public as well), or exactly what they do and for whom. Or how it all fits together. For this, they have movies and books and tv-series and documentaries and comicbooks and so on and so forth. I see no reason whatsoever to assume shadowrunners are much different. Alot of people will probably blow it off as rumors and stories - especially because of media-hypes of 'robin hood' type runners fighting 'the evil corps' and yadiya and ladida.
The no-ID secret unknown people you talk about DV8 are the megacorp black ops squads - those are the people without reps, that few know about and even fewer can pick out in a crowd. Those are the 'real' shadowrunners, if you will. No corp would trust their most sensitive operations to 'street-scum' mercenaries - those are used when the need for deniability outweighs the need for secrecy and success, and they don't want to risk more capital than necessary. It's all cost-calculations and economics.
Posted by: nezumi Jan 30 2004, 03:46 PM
Here's an interesting run idea...
Lion Videos, subsidary of Aztechnology, has recent started their "documentary" "Shadowrunner Joe has a Go" on a shadowrunner by the name of Joe (hence the name of the documentary) who's hired by Ares (an Aztech competitor) to blow up a puppy farm that's been threatening Ares' capital. Your team is hired by Ares to take Joe, the director and the producer out of the picture and destroy the script, thereby saving face for Ares Macrotechnology.
Posted by: Thanos007 Jan 30 2004, 04:55 PM
I'm gonna sort 'o take this off topic because I think this bares on an other topic I was thinking of starting. How many real runners are there? Some one here said the TT source book gave a number between 100- 200 in Seattle. Man thats a lot of runners period, let alone in Seattle. I figure that there might bee 100- 200 in north america. really 100-200 in Seattle? Employed often enought that they are making some sort of living? Enough so that it is easier than getting a 9 to 5 job?
Seattle is a large city. There are larger. How many are there in Atlanta? New York? London? Tokyo? Jeez! We're up to our eye balls in runners. There must be something like a open state of war between all the corps. Frag the CC. They wouldn't have time to do anything to stop anyone. What are that stats for that? A run happens every 15 minutes?
First you need to define what makes a Shadowrunner a shadowrunner and not just a ordinary criminal, or a merc, or what ever. Then you can get to a truer number of just how many SR there are and where.
How does this relate to this topic? Well... fewer sr's, fewer that can go public. Undoubtedly there have been some ala mafia types. someone gets pinched. Gives up some other folks and writes a book about it. You don't see a sub-culture devoted to it.
Thanos
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 30 2004, 05:10 PM
Seattle is clearly identified as one of the more "happening" places in terms of Shadowrunning, what with it being the West-coast holdout of the UCAS, right next to a bunch of other nations, the site of major corporate investment, etc...
I'd say that the number of runners in Seattle is probably higher than average. Also, consider that those two hundred runners probably only comprise 40 or less running teams, with a few freelancers on the side. That's a fair number, but in an active metropolis that number can be used up pretty quickly.
~J
Posted by: BitBasher Jan 30 2004, 05:16 PM
| QUOTE |
| Enough so that it is easier than getting a 9 to 5 job? |
| QUOTE |
| Seattle is a large city. There are larger. How many are there in Atlanta? New York? London? Tokyo? Jeez! We're up to our eye balls in runners. |
Posted by: Rev Jan 30 2004, 08:29 PM
Whether the number is ridiculous or not also hinges a lot on the average duration of a shadowrun.
In different campaigns they might take a few hours, or a week, or six months. Personally I would love to play and to have run more of the latter, but really it has been mostly the former.
Posted by: Siege Jan 30 2004, 08:30 PM
Not to mention there are plenty of criminals who don't warrant the title "shadowrunner" which make up the "shadow world" of Seattle.
-Siege
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