Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Tyro Sep 29 2009, 04:05 PM

How would YOU use it? I personally like the idea of creating a Body 2 mage so I can turn into a cockroach or something. Thoughts?

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 29 2009, 04:39 PM

I once had a player whose rat shaman shapechanged into an eel and tried to flush himself down a toilet to escape into the local sewers. Didn't work out so well for him, but the theory was sound.

Posted by: pbangarth Sep 29 2009, 04:41 PM

Let me guess.... he suffered from the drain?

Posted by: Tyro Sep 29 2009, 05:10 PM

holds his nose and runs away screaming

Posted by: Stahlseele Sep 29 2009, 05:12 PM

augh, it burns and stinks . .

Posted by: Sponge Sep 29 2009, 05:18 PM

Posted by: Neraph Sep 29 2009, 11:20 PM

Play a free spirit, don't increase your physical stats, and take Shapechange.

Posted by: Tyro Sep 29 2009, 11:35 PM

Ow. Just... ow.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 29 2009, 11:55 PM

Why not choose Realistic Form? (Or Animal Form in prior editions.)

Posted by: Jaid Sep 30 2009, 05:31 AM

presumably because that doesn't boost all your physical stats automatically...

Posted by: 3278 Sep 30 2009, 06:03 AM

From a roleplaying perspective, that's a really fascinating idea, but it does have some practical limitations. It'd limit you to only animals with a Body of 0 to 3, and even if you chose a higher Body for greater variety, free spirits can't use foci, so they're going to have to sustain Shapechange on their own.

Posted by: crizh Sep 30 2009, 12:17 PM

I turned me into a Newt.

I got better.

Posted by: Drraagh Sep 30 2009, 03:07 PM

I have to wonder if I know you from somewhere. I was discussing this online with some people the other day about transforming a target to an animal, since the armor and clothes will be unusable and the ware is not able to be used. Though, one idea I did have is what about ware that isn't 'activated' but just used, like bone lacing and body armor.

Posted by: Suriyel Sep 30 2009, 04:09 PM

If you have the one that can shapechange other people, first, find a street sam with cyber weapons and cyber/bio armor.

Next turn the street sam into something easily smuggled through conventional security.

Then find the target.

Finally, stop sustaining the shapechange and unleash the sky-clad sam on a very unsuspecting target. If you're the considerate type have a set of flats on hand for the sam.

(Of course you are entitled to make all the pokemon jokes you want at the sam's expense.)

Posted by: Karoline Sep 30 2009, 06:40 PM

Gunbunny! I choose you!

Posted by: Drraagh Sep 30 2009, 07:17 PM

"Maybe you should put some shorts on or something if you want to keep fighting evil today." - Mystery Men

Posted by: Neraph Oct 1 2009, 06:35 AM

Body of 0 to 4. Two points either way.

EDIT: Oh, also, you can stack Shapechange. IE: I'm a Bod 1 mage. I cast Shapechange to become a Wolf, assuming 6 successes that will give you a Body 8. Then Shapechange to a Great Cat. And from there an elephant. As you do this, don't forget to drop sustaining the now unneeded prior forms.

Posted by: Zormal Oct 1 2009, 09:21 AM

I don't think that's a common interpretation of the rules, but if your GM allows that... *shrug*

Allowing stacking in this way does result in there being no upper limit to what you can shapechange into (and makes drain a non-issue as you can just stack low-level spells indefinitely). It wouldn't fly at our table.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 1 2009, 11:13 AM

Hmm... megaladon... or t-rex... or brontasauros... or triceratops.... so many choices.... oh, or velociraptor! (Although last one would be a normal option I suppose)

Can shapechange do dinos?

Also, I don't think the stacking shapechange thing would fly at most tables, especially if you could just drop the old versions of the spells.

Posted by: Walpurgisborn Oct 1 2009, 01:14 PM

Except when you drop the unneeded form, then the bonuses that come with that should drop as well. Which means you can't be in the new shape because of the +-2 body, so that spell cracks. You're back to your naked self, and probably fighting a bit of drain.

OTOH if you want to keep sustaining, sure, I'd rule you could stack it.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 2 2009, 02:55 PM

I don't think so. By the time you drop the old spell, the new one has taken hold and sets your attributes; the old one is unneeded at this time.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 2 2009, 04:03 PM

Would you allow a mage to pump himself full of a Body-enhancing drug to be able to transform into a bigger animal ? Would you allow a mage to cast and sustain "Increase Body" on himself for the same purpose ?

If you answer "Yes", you may consider allowing the "daisy-chaining" of increasingly larger Shapechange forms. If you answer "No", then you should proscribe it.

Personnaly I wouldn't allow it. You don't turn a bear into a rhinoceros, you try to transform a metahuman that happens to be temporarily assuming an ursine form into a rhinoceros when you cast the spell...

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 2 2009, 04:23 PM

Hmm . . CAN you actually do something like that?
you're attacked by some kind of big critter. Maybe one of those awakened bears.
And simply turn him into a deer or something?

Also, what happens if you turn an elf into a rat, put him into a small steel thingie and stop sustaining?

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 2 2009, 04:43 PM

Shapechange requires a voluntary subject, so this won't work.

Here is another question, though. Say a Possession Tradition mage (OK, OK, with Channeling) casts Shapechange on himself. Say his own BOD is 3. Then he could transform into a creature with BOD from 1 to 5. Now, if he were to be possessed by a F4 spirit, thereby having a BOD of 7, can he transform into a creature within the range of BOD 5 to 9?

I understand that he could transform first and then be possessed, having effectively the same range of BOD, but I wonder whether he could pick a particular large creature he wants to be (to blend in maybe, or have a particular ability) and 'bulk up' first.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 3 2009, 03:19 PM

On a closer reading of Shapechange, this is how it works. It checks your Body attribute, and you use the Critter's attributes while in that form. That is very different than its stats replacing your own for the duration of the spell (which is how I assumed it worked). Combine that with how you need to check your Body to figure out what forms you can assume, and that pretty much nullifies any Shapechange chaining.

However, other spells, such as Increased (Body), or drugs that increase your Body attribute, would work with Shapechange, simply because the spell wants your Body attribute, not neccessarily your base or augmented attribute.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 3 2009, 04:15 PM

About that, what happens if the target does volounteer but changes their mind?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 3 2009, 04:58 PM

I believe magic is a 'no takebacks' kind of system in that reguard, but I'm not entirely certain. It would be a handy way for a sammy to pop back into metahuman form when he wants to instead of relying on the mage's timing.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 3 2009, 05:37 PM

In SR3, Shapechange had a variant spell, Transform, that could be used on involuntary targets.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 4 2009, 08:42 AM

The "voluntary" part is IMHO required only at the time of the spellcasting. Once you have consciously let the magic change you, it's too late to change your mind.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 4 2009, 04:34 PM

This.......

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 4 2009, 05:29 PM

Yes, but I pointed out the 'voluntary' bit to counter the suggestion earlier that Shapechange could be used on an enemy or an unwilling dupe.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 05:47 PM

Yeah, but someone else brought up the question of what happens when someone who was willing becomes unwilling.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 4 2009, 07:17 PM

Yes me.
Imagine a Pornomancer Mage simply telling people how awesome being changed into a rat would be . .
Hmm . . can you make someone into a willing target by either knocking them out(can't say no) or using influenca magics?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 07:18 PM

Yes and yes. I'm somewhat sure about the knocked out thing, and somewhat more sure on the influence magic thing.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 4 2009, 07:41 PM

Veddy interestink!
GM:"OK, you wake up."
P1:"I shake my head"
GM:"Your whiskers hit something next to your head"
P1:"i . . wait what?"

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 08:07 PM

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 4 2009, 08:37 PM

I'm not so sure about the knocked out thing. To me, not present is not the same as voluntary.

However, the Influence type of magic looks promising.

[[It would be good to be a rat right now.]]
"Man I wish I was a rat right now!"
"I can help you with that!"
"Chill!"

Posted by: Neraph Oct 6 2009, 04:15 PM

In Dungeons and Dragons, unconscious targets were immediately considered willing targets, but I don't know how far the rules for Shadowrun actually go. Depends on what kind of dream they're having, maybe?

Posted by: tisoz Oct 6 2009, 04:40 PM

Not positive in 4th, but in prior editions (and it makes sense it is needed in 4th) Heal and Treat Spells require voluntary targets. Being unconscious makes them voluntary by default.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 6 2009, 05:34 PM

point. Stabilize would be kinda pointless, if someone is in overflow, most likely unconscious, and you can't apply that spell . .

Posted by: Apathy Oct 6 2009, 06:57 PM

So knocking someone out, shapechanging them into goldfish, and flushing them down the toilet becomes an efficient means of body disposal?

Stupid question: If a ghoul eats chunks of a person that had been shape-changed into a cow, does it still count as metahuman flesh for purposes of fulfilling their dietary requirement?

Posted by: tisoz Oct 6 2009, 07:36 PM

I have no problem with this, but they would need to keep sustaining the spell or they clog the pipes.


No, they are a cow. If the spell is stopped being sustained while still being digested, I'd say yes, it's back to human.

Only argument I see is still have human sentience.

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 6 2009, 07:46 PM

Look at the table at the back of Street Magic, pages 188, 189. Heal does not require a voluntary target, nor does Stabilize. Shapechange does.

Posted by: CollateralDynamo Oct 6 2009, 08:03 PM

At my tables voluntary vs. involuntary is ruled at a choice made at an instinctive level. Even a knocked out person has an aura and can attempt whatever ambient means of resistance their character possesses (no counter-spelling obviously). I have not seen an official ruling on that tho, so it is just my opinion on the rules.

Posted by: CollateralDynamo Oct 6 2009, 08:03 PM

At my tables voluntary vs. involuntary is ruled at a choice made at an instinctive level. Even a knocked out person has an aura and can attempt whatever ambient means of resistance their character possesses (no counter-spelling obviously). I have not seen an official ruling on that tho, so it is just my opinion on the rules.

Posted by: tisoz Oct 6 2009, 08:06 PM

There you go. I said I wasn't sure in 4th edition. But according to SR4.195 under Range, it states unconscious characters are considered to be voluntary.

What was different in 3rd edition with the Transform spell, besides not needing a voluntary target, the target did not keep its mental attributes and did not recall things while transformed. So shapechanging an unconcious victim and making them live as an animal could be cruel, especially if they were headed for the slaughterhouse.

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 6 2009, 08:21 PM

I understand your position that your tables play it that way.

I look through the whole table of spells, pages 187-189 in SM, and few of the spells listed as voluntary make any sense for an unconscious target. Maybe something like Enabler, or Stim or Critter Form could be stretched to be useful on such a target, or you could get kinky with Makeover.

EDIT: Well, shit! Unconscious = voluntary in both SR4 and SR4A. Sucks to be me.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 6 2009, 08:41 PM

That's sweet. Imagine what the plumbers would think when they try unclogging the pipes and end up having to cut the pipes open and find a really really tall thin human stuck in one of the pipes

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 6 2009, 08:42 PM

So will now somebody answer my question as to what would happen if i were to transform an body 3 elf into a rat and flush him down the pipes and then lift the spell?

Posted by: milk ducks Oct 6 2009, 08:57 PM

It's super effective!

-milk.

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 6 2009, 09:11 PM

Burst pipes and mushed elf.

Posted by: rathmun Oct 7 2009, 05:11 AM

Depends on how far down the pipe they got before you stopped. if the pipe is surrounded by several feet of concrete on all sides then you get clogged pipes and a smushed elf (I doubt bodily structural integrity is sufficient to apply that much pressure). If they're in the wall then you get a very badly injured elf and a really big mess. If they make it to the sewer main first then you have a body (which may be unharmed) in the sewers.

Posted by: Harboe Oct 20 2009, 10:07 PM

A good laugh and some confused forensic investigators...

Then again, how many mages have pulled that over the years?
It might be a fairly normal way of doing things?
Maybe?