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Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 04:37 PM

I'm just curious - has anyone actually run a campaign (standard 400 pt or otherwise) that allowed for ghoul, vampire or other infected characters/concepts? If so, how did they stack up with the other players in your group?

I'm considering allowing a ghoul player character into my up and coming SR4 game and thought I'd ask the experts before I give the nod to my player(s). feedback welcome! positive, negative, or whatever you gots to say on the topic I wanna hear it.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 4 2009, 05:23 PM

I would not mix infected with any other kind of character.
Except maybe other stuff from RC. Things that can't get infected.
Or you run a campaign with all infected characters.
Else, basically every time a ghoul shakes hands with another guy,
congratulations, you have another bleached face.

Posted by: Namelessjoe Oct 4 2009, 05:27 PM

hi there

we havent had any undead, no infected but i think a word of caution (baring your game style) is of societies views of ghouls.... ive played a 10ft tall full conversion troll and just my appearance it was very difficult to get around in town(read:near impossible) it would be easer for a ghoul but still.... oh also keep in mind his eating habits and the people you would need to associate with for the meats mmmm brains anyway i suppose to make it easyer but reduce the neg ramifications you could always roll food requirements into the cost of lifestyle

any way i think with a good back story and thoughtfull prep with the hay if you cause raiots from eating too much soilent green you may have to mak a back up charicter clause id say go for it

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 05:35 PM

it's not THAT easy to pass on the infection. blood to blood transfer, sexual contact (ewwww!) and/or saliva can pass on the disease. But contact doesn't automatically ensure infection. A simple handshake alone won't do it.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 05:53 PM

Isn't there some quality that infected can take (A negative quality in fact) that makes it so that they can't transfer the virus? Something like 'infertile infected.' I believe all second generation infected have this automatically (ie children of actual infected). This could prevent the 'oh snap, ghoul army' syndrome that accompanies the high contagious rate of infected.

Diet is also important to keep in mind. You likely don't want to just handwave the fact that ghouls need a quarter their body weight in raw meat a week, and vampires need that much blood. You don't need to go into gory detail either, but it shouldn't be "Hey! Stuffer shack dude! I need a quarter pounder, raw, and a blood shake, to go please." either.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 06:21 PM

actually, I didn't know the answer to this question, so I went looking in the SR4 rulebook. The infection power only comes into play AFTER someone has been drained down to zero essence. And even then, it's a opposed test to see if they become infected.



depending on the particulars of character background, I could always take the option listed in the Runner's Companion and use some variant on the advanced lifestyles rules to handle part of the dietary requirement. Essence loss (for vampires) isn't TOO bad a deal - they have to feed at least once a month or lose one point of essence. ghouls tho...they have to feed at least once a week (5% of their body weight per week) or they start to starve to death. That might be most interesting indeed...hmm, also vampires have to feed on blood once a week too or they'll starve. so looks like they'll be raiding the blood bank in addition to draining essence at least once a lunar cycle....go go runner's companion.

So dietary requirements are going to be something to ponder for any player who decides to play an infected. i'm less concerned about them infecting someone else, since it seems to be fairly difficult to infect others. I also see no information listed about Infected and offspring - my assumption is that infection renders the victim infertile and unable to reproduce via normal methods.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 06:28 PM

ah - ok, so addendum to my previous post:

HMHVVI (strain I) can only be passed via the infection power.
HMHVVII and HMHVVIII are passed as other diseases. so contact with body fluids and the like can result in infection and transformation. However - strain II and III can be fought with magic and/or strong antibotics. if/when the disease takes effect, it's irreversible...but prior to that it can be fought off successfullly, if properly treated and swift action is taken.

also - it is apparently possible for someone to be a 'carrier' of HMHVV but not infected themselves. Infected can also take the 'infertile infected' quality and cannot infect other people. Interestingly enough, the reading of 'infertile infected' does hint at the possiblity of 'normal' childbirth for infected.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 06:53 PM

Yeah, carriers result when you have someone with an infection that isn't compatible with their metatype (such as a human with the Wendigo strain which only affects orks).

infertile infected generally result from the children of infected (Which are possible for some infected but not for others, there is a section on it in RC)

Also, you have got to be super careful with the spreading for the virus. Yes it can be fought off with antibiotics and such, but strain II is power 13 and strain III is power 8, both with penetration -6 (Don't remember if that is good or bad) and is spread by contact with an infected, their blood, or their saliva. You can get it down, but it is hard and requires serious medical/magical attention.

I'd suggest limiting the infected allowed to those that are type I so that it can be more easily controlled -or- requiring anyone with type II or III to get the infertile infected quality.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 06:58 PM

hmm...good points, and well worth considering. I just reread the rules for disease in the augmentation book and you're right - HMHVV is far nastier than even gamma-anthrax. however, it's still limited to contact. I'd specifically say contact where the possiblity of fluid transfer could take place, but the rules aren't that specific. Combat injuries could do it, of course. Or again, sexual contact with a ghoul (ewww). But merely shaking hands wouldn't be enough, at least in my book anyway.

howeve,r, the point about requiring infected players to take the infertile infected quality is well made. I shall add that to my character creation campaign notes.

Posted by: SincereAgape Oct 4 2009, 07:00 PM

I am curious to see how infected PC (Specfically Vampires) stack up compared the base metahumans in a 400 build point campaign.

I enjoy using Vampires as NPCs and have used a grade 3 initiate vampire mage as a prime runner in the North Jersey campaign (Risa from On the Run).

On paper, I assume a vampire with adapt or magical abilities would outshine an elf, human, ork, dwarf, or troll because of their regeneration powers and natural vision enhancements, and ability to turn into mist. (Especailly adapts).

The only downside that I can see is the build point cost to play a vampire ( I believe it's 100?), thus limiting the character in other departments such as attributes, skills, spells, contacts, resources, etc.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 07:05 PM

Shaking a ghoul's hand is enough to transfer the virus. Contact vectors are just that. Any sort of contact with anything that gives the disease (Which includes the infected itself, its blood, or its saliva) with any part of your skin counts as contact. This is what makes some people have a bit of difficulty believing the 'repressed minority' thing, because it seems like a single well disguised ghoul could transform thousands of people just by going up to people and shaking their hand or patting them on the arm or spitting on some hand rails or door nobs/handles.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 07:06 PM

Hehe, I'll have to make one once I'm done with my current character I'm working on.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 07:08 PM

to some extent, the BP costs for attributes are mitigated by the bonus stats vampires get merely for being one of the infected. Ghouls, for example, are walking freaking tanks. vampires tend to be quicker, more agile. But all of the infected see some level of modifications for their stat line.

To answer your question, yes - a vampire PC will suffer for their choice. it's 100BP for a vampire (35 for ghouls), which means sacrificing in other areas. Or picking up negative qualities somewhere. Not to mention the social stigma of being a vampire or ghoul. And I believe that many areas of the world still consider it open season on the infected. Not to mention that for many of the infected, merely trying to feed themselves is a crime. so there are significant downsides to playing one of the infected, and I intend to enforce them if and when they arise.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 07:15 PM

i'm going to disagree with that interpretation. contact with bodily fluids, yes. mere skin to skin contact, no. the rules in Augmentation (pg 129) and Runners Companion (pg 83) certainly indicate that contact or exchange of bodily fluids counts as exposure but shaking hands with ghoul isn't enough to spred the disease.

Posted by: SincereAgape Oct 4 2009, 07:17 PM

Boo. Hiss. Can't stand vampires to be honest with ya. Let me know how that turns out though. I am tempted to roll one myself and use them as a NPC.

Interesting. Only a moderate allergy to sunlight. That means they can go out in the sun without instantly frying.

Server to Wood. *Sharpens stake and gets a baseball bat ready*



There are many Ghoul socities, and I believe there is even a ghoul nation or sect in LA.

Vampires on the other hand. Not sure about. There probably is a secret society out there who call themselves the Sabbat or Camerilla.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 07:24 PM

Who makes anything out of wood in 2072? Bats included, last I checked wood was kinda hard/expensive to get.

There is some mention about Cabals of vampires (often headed by a nosforatu), but I figure that Vampires can blend into society quite well as they look almost completely normal (I've got a sunlight allergy, soy allergy, and fang implants when I was a kid)



Notice how it says with the creatures -or- their bodily fluids, thus contact with the creature itself is enough.

HMHVV III starts out the exact same way.

So unless you're wearing gloves, don't shake a ghoul's hand.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 07:28 PM

don't get me started.

I've actually been thinking about HMHVV and shadowrun quite a bit. were there people carrying the disease when mana levels got high enough for it to activate? If so, were they the 'first generation' of infected? given their immunity to age it's possible they're still around.

ghouls actually have two main 'factions': followers of Tamir Grey (the Ghoul Liberation League) who are largely peaceful and lawabiding, and the survivors of the Cabrini Green massacre (the 162s) who are much more militant and violent. Of the two, I could see the 162's going around and trying to infect high ranking corporate types and influential politicans.

actuall, I think they're the 162's. I don't have loose alliances with me at the moment so I can't check it for reference. Anyways, vampires are quite a bit more rare in shadowrun. Not to mention they seem to tend towards a more solitary lifestyle. I could see a couple vampires getting together to form a loose web of contacts and feeding tips/tactics but I don't see them clubbing together like the ghouls do. And forget about the nosferatu vampires - they're strictly loners. moreso than standard vampires.

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 4 2009, 07:57 PM

One of the folks I'm playing with now played a ghoul in her last game, and my characters best contact is a ghoul in this one, along with her romantic interest.
Things to keep in mind:
You have to work out how they're getting their food. There are actual law abiding ways to do this, as well as black market.
Gloves. Chemically sealed.
Ghouls should not be kissed, and should not have sex, except with other infected. (Yes, I know, romance interest for my character aside, its a tragedy thing for them. look but don't touch)
Ghouls look like ghouls, except when they don't. cybereyes, good make up, wigs. And you can't fix that astral signature.
If your teammates find out you're a ghoul theres a 50/50 chance they'll kill you Some groups its worse odds than that, some groups its better.
If you are a SINless ghoul, you are fair game for bounty hunters.

sometimes the challenges are what make the game fun, sometimes its what makes it not fun. Do whats fun for ya'll.

~TDG

Posted by: Ravor Oct 4 2009, 08:06 PM

Hell, even if you have a SIN you are still likely to be "fair game".


But then again, my players have a "kill it with fire" attitude towards Ghouls, Vampires not so much since they have to actually try to infect you...
'

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 4 2009, 08:35 PM

Yes, it is. Yes, it does.



You are thinking of Injection. Ghouls spread by Contact, with a nearly guaranteed success rate (Power 8 ). Unless immediately treated with high-rating nanotechnology, the character will become a Ghoul, and even then, they are probably going to loose a significant chunk of Essence.

Rules as Written, the fluff cannot be accurate because the entire planet has become Ghouls 5 years ago.




Edit: To the original question, Vampires & Nosferatu are correctly priced, & reasonably balanced (they should be slightly better - the Infected additional IP should stack with other forms of Initiative Enhancement).

As for the other Infected, they are all either overpowered or underpowered - most to a significant degree - for the Build Points they cost to play. For example, barring the above idiocy regarding contagions, Ghouls should cost 60 Build Points, & Loup-Garou should be a 20 Build Point negative quality.

Assuming you fix the contagion factor (which should be done regardless of if there is a player ghoul or not), and you do not mind the balancing discrepencies (I do, so I changed the costs), then Ghouls are just fine.


Suggested Contagion Fix:
Power: 5
Vector: Injection
Penetration: -2

This means that a single hit from a Ghoul's natural weapon that deals Physical damage will run a strong chance of Infection, but it is not a guaranteed thing (although it will make it more likely the next time, & so on). More importantly, the rules actually match the fluff & it is no longer a apocalypse scenario.

Posted by: Udoshi Oct 4 2009, 09:21 PM

If you're going to use Ghouls in your campaign, you first need to decide which version of HMHVV you're using in your game. Running Wild had a new version that, i believe, superceded the runner's companion version. The RW virus, when applied to the rules normally, basically results in instant zombie apocalypse. Our gaming group took one look at it, went 'Yeah, thats really stupid' and tossed that rule out of our table. From the looks of it, everyone else in this thread is assuming you'll be using that book.

Just pick up the runner's companion instead. Much more reasonable.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 09:27 PM

We are using RC for all of these numbers.

Edit: Or at least I am.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 09:52 PM

As am I.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 10:03 PM

Here's another oddity to the HMHVV rules - if ghouls were really 'one touch/instant infection', then why are the bounties on them so low? Looking in 'Running Wild', sidebar pg 64 there's a list of bounties paid in the CAS and UCAS on various and sundry infected. Ghouls rate a 1,500 nuyen catch in the CAS, 1,500 in UCAS. Vampires, on the other hand, weigh in at 6,000 nuyen for CAS, 7,500 in the UCAS.

Aside from establishing the fact that the UCAS really really hates vampires for some reason, why would the critter with the lesser rate of infection (i.e. vampires having to drain essence of a victim before using their infection power) have the higher bounty when ghouls (if they can infect merely by shaking hands are a MUCH bigger danger) are a much much lower bounty? if the CAS and UCAS really wanted to get rid of ghouls they'd put a higher bounty on them to encourage hunting them down and getting rid of them.

totally weird.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 10:12 PM

Well, one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the ghoul infection takes 10 days to take full affect, so if you -know- you've been in contact with a ghoul, you can go get some medical treatment (Which might actually be provided for free by the government to prevent an outbreak). So the danger is when you have stealth ghoul going around spitting on door knobs, not when crazed ghouls try eating you.

There is also the fact that Vampires may not be as physically strong as Ghouls, but they are much harder to kill, and if they want they can transform a person in a matter of minutes. They are also rarer. UCAS doesn't mind forking over a big bounty on something that they are unlikely to have to pay up on more than 1 or 2 at a time. Ghouls on the other hand can be brought in by the cart load, and UCAS just doesn't want to have a sudden hit to their resources when someone walks in with 20 ghoul heads with a 10k bounty on each one.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 4 2009, 10:25 PM

Except for one minor detail - the rules in Runners Companion & Running Wild are identical.


You know, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. As I have been saying, the rules are fucking retarded. They simply do not work for anything except a Zombie Apocalypse game, & as this is obviously not such a game, the rules are broken.

Simple answer is the correct one - the HMHVV III rules do not function as intended, & no amount of trying to twist it will work, said rules simply need to be altered.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 10:29 PM

Actually, that's untrue. according to RC, pg 83 - HMHVV III (the ghoul strain) has a 1 day infection period. At any time after that, you can start spreading the joy of ghoul-dom. and you aren't incapacatated either - you can be walking around. Ok, technically you'd probably be puking your guts out, screaming/moaning in agony and somewhat confused...but you could be walking/stumbling around and infecting others. If we are to assume that mere touch alone is responsible for infection (and the pathology of the disease can be implied from other/older source material for this to NOT be the case), one ghoul that gets into someplace like ACHE (the former renraku arcology) would turn the entire place into a charnel house inside of 2 days.

Why would the CAS and UCAS not want to see something like that exterminated post haste?




the mechanics of vampiric infection vs ghoul infection patterns (assuming we take your model as reality) indicate that ghouls are the vastly greater threat. yet the bounty on ghouls is among the lowest in every nation. that simply does not fit together.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 4 2009, 10:33 PM

Again, simple answer is the correct answer. The Rules as Written need to be fixed, as they do not even remotely reflect the fluff or setting of the game.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 10:35 PM

here's what I think - I am going to treat HMHVV strains listed as 'contact' as to assume 'contact with bodily fluids'. Strain I is unchanged, still requiring the use of the critter Infection power/essence drain combo punch in order to activate it's vampiric goodness. To assume that merely shaking hands with a ghoul indicates instant infection simply does not fit with the established game setting. you're right - to strictly interpret the HMHVV rules as listed would result in an instant zombie apocalypse style game.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 11:14 PM

You should really read the full text and not just the quick stats. Also, reading over the disease rules again... you are very very unlikely to ever become a ghoul. You will lose a big chunk of essence, but you won't become a ghoul.

Get ready for rules!

Now then, HMHVV III has a speed of 1 day, a power of 8, and a penetration of -6. Here is how it all comes together:
You get touched by a ghoul (Eww) and catch the virus. It has a 1 day incubation period, after which you roll your body to reduce the power. Any sort of other bonuses (Such as help from medical assistance) is reduced by 6, so you're unlikely to get much help from anything short of the very best medicine. Now, average person has a body of 3, so will get about 1 hit on average, reducing the power to 7. They then lose .1 essence because of the disease. At this point they are a carrier but not yet a ghoul (Which I suppose means they can transmit through blood, but likely not contact or even saliva yet). Now, another 24 hours later, the disease kicks in again. You roll body, average joe reduces the power to 6, and loses another .1 essence. After 7 days and .7 essence lose, day 8 rolls around, the power is down to 1, and the final hit reduces the power to 0. At this point you do not lose another .1 essence. You are still a carrier until 10 days have passed, but you are no longer at risk of actually becoming a ghoul (Because in order for HMHVV III to turn you into a ghoul, it must drain a full point of essence and still be active (have a power over 1)). After day ten passes, so long as the power has already been reduced to 0, you don't become a ghoul and the virus dies in your system. You've lost some essence from the ordeal, but survived.

So yes, if you actually read the rules and follow them properly, only the weak and sickly will be turned into a ghoul by HMHVV III, everyone else will just take an essence hit. Since there is no knowledge of an 'essence' number in SR, people don't realize just how much it cost them to touch that ghoul, and so that is why the bounty is so low.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 4 2009, 11:28 PM

Entirely incorrect. Go read the Pathogen rules again - the Power is cumulative.

Breakdown:

Day 1: Power 8. Joe Average achieves 1 Hit, reducing Power to 7. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 2: Power 8+7=15. Joe Average achieves a remarkable 3 Hits, reducing the Power to 12. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 3: Power 8+12=20. Joe Average craps out with 0 Hits, for 20 Power. 0.1 Essence Loss.
Day 4: Power 8+20=28...

Do I need to continue? Also note that if you somehow avoid turning into a Ghoul in your first "infection episode", you have still lost a significant amount of Essence. More importantly, you turn into a Ghoul when you have lost 1.0 Essence due to the virus, not due to a single episode of infection.

This is the reason that even at my suggested Power 5, -2 Penetration, the disease is still very dangerous. Reduce the Power to 2, and if you have not adjusted the Vector, it still results in Zombie Apocalypse within a month.


Edit: Forgot to mention that if you somehow manage to reduce the Power to 0, the only result is you do not suffer the symptoms for that single test. The disease continues for a minimum of 10 days with cumulative power. Only after that point is the Power no longer cumulative, & thus ends if you reduce the Power to 0 as described in the above post.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 11:34 PM

Nope - according to your strict interpretation of the disease rules, if you've got the disease and it's active, you can pass it along to others just as if you were a ghoul yourself. So under your hypothetical situation, one ghoul can touch off a cascade of infections. It'll grow exponentially too since symptoms don't appear until after the first disease resistance test - which takes an entire day. so anyone who gets touched by a ghoul is now carrying the ghoul strain of the virus and everyone they touch will be infected as well.

And even after they're affected by the disease (i.e. take their first disease resistance test) they are STILL able to infect people. Ghoul disease doesn't incapaciate it's victims. Oh it frags 'em up seriously bad, but they can (theoretically) still move around and infect other people. Vampirism, on the other hand, puts you into a coma for a couple days while the disease transforms you (then you wake up hungry and looking for blood and souls to consume).

Again - all the data indicates that, according to strict interpretation of the rules, ACHE should be the racoon city Hive in about 2 days after a ghoul manages to slime it's way through the sewer tunnels.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 11:45 PM

Darn, I missed that it was cumulative.

Alright, so you are basically screwed unless you have an amazing body score and a bunch of resistance to help you out.

I still think it is fairly unclear as to at what point you can pass it on again by simple touch. I would think that until it completely infects you (become a ghoul) it could only be passed on by contact with your blood.

I would think the HMHVV III having to wait until the victim is fully turned into a ghoul to pass on by touch would be the main thing stopping zombie Apocalypse. Even then, your right, a single ghoul managing to find its way into a city could infect alot of people, though I still figure that anyone who has HMHVV III (But isn't a ghoul yet) is either given amazing medical care or shot.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 4 2009, 11:51 PM

the ONLY way this works is if 'contact' infection means 'contact with blood and/or saliva'. simple skin to skin contact infection would result in massive outbreaks of ghouls within any given major urban population center. It would also result in worldwide zombie apocalypse within about 6 months.

I'd also make the further assumption that HMHVV cannot live outside of a host for very long. perhaps 20 minutes or so at most.

Posted by: Traul Oct 4 2009, 11:53 PM

Ghouls themselves might be the best defence against pandemia: most of the people they touch do not live long enough to contaminate anybody.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 4 2009, 11:56 PM

RAW specifically states that it includes contact with the ghoul itself, which would indicate its own skin. What RAW does not state is that someone carrying HMHVV III that hasn't yet transformed into a ghoul can pass it on by -any- means at all (I just figure blood would still have it). So yeah, just don't touch their blood (Which is generally avoided anyway) and you'll be fine. This is what prevent zombie apocalypse, the fact that only a small portion get infected and then not treated before their time is up, and that they can't in turn infect anyone for 10 days.

Now, I'm not saying that it isn't still overpowered, but you don't have everyone in a building infected in ten seconds.

Edit: This does make the fact that some countries want to give ghouls citizenship very scary, because then there would be a very serious risk of infecting other people by mistake.

Edit2:
Good point

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 12:07 AM

remember - you can start transforming into a ghoul within a DAY after making your first disease test. according to the rules, that means you are infectious from that point forward. And since ghouls aren't incapacatated during their transformation, they can wander around touching, sweating, crying and puking on everyone around them, thus infecting them as well. One ghoul riding the subway during rush hour would infect an entire train worth of victims. who would go home and infect their friends/family/neighbor/coworkers. who would then spread the infection still further.

As currently written, the HMHVV rules equate to full on zombie apocalypse within about a year from first infection.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 12:14 AM

No you can't. You transform when you lose 1 essence, and not before then. And while you can be up and about, there are about a half dozen debilitating side effects, most of which basically say "You aren't going anywhere buddy."

If you want to keep it playable with RAW, just figure on the fact that the virus can only be transferred by blood until the person has fully transformed into a ghoul. Problem solved just like that. A ghoul is still a big problem if he gets loose in the middle of a city, but at worse some people go to the hospital and suck on meds for a while and the ghoul is quickly killed (This might explain the whole 'there is a bounty on ghouls' thing.)

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 12:29 AM

pain and nausea, which while totally uncool aren't as bad as paralysis (which WOULD stop you in your tracks). And the rules make no distinction between transformation and infection - according to the rules, it is entirely possible to be still fighting the disease and still infect others by touch alone. which again, does not make sense.

the only way this works is if ghouls only pass the infection along via contact with blood and/or bodily fluids. mere touch alone is insufficent. If that were the case, SR4 would be Resident Evil all over again.



except that again, the rules themselves are working against your interpretation here. For example - in Augmentation, pg 131 the rules for influenza state that oubreaks of superflu (i'm paraphrasing here) are power 6. But the baseline power of HMHVV III is power 8. POWER 8! it's more powerful than the 1917-1918 swine flu epidemic! And it's spread by mere touch alone. compare the two disease again - superflu (the power 6 version) has a penetration of 0. But ghoul fever has a -6 pen. Not to mention ghoul fever has a longer incubation period, thus allowing someone who's been infected to go spread the disease to others before he gets hit with the first symptoms. so ghoul fever spreads rapidly, is vastly more powerful than the superflu and eats antibiotics for lunch and asks for seconds.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 12:43 AM

Yeah, I happened to read that about influenza and noticed how much more benign it is than HMHVV III. But like I said, there still isn't anything in the rules that suggests someone can transfer HMHVV III by touch at any point before they have become a full fledged ghoul, which is the only way that the disease makes any kind of sense as not being instant RE.

There are three real options. You play it RAW and accept that an infected can't pass the disease on by touch until they are full ghouls (Because it never states anywhere that it can be transferred in any way before the full transformation), or you change how the disease works so that it must be contact with blood/saliva only, or you just make it much much weaker.

Also, with pain and nausia, I suppose they -could- walk around, but they aren't real likely to (Incapacitated half the time, suffer double wound modifiers, and severe pain)

Like I said, multiple ways to deal with it so that SR doesn't become RE and I'll just leave it at that for now.

Edit: Though admittedly it could be fun to play an RE style SR game that runs with the 'zombie outbreak' policy. Maybe have the PCs be naturally immune to HMHVV III

Edit2: Actually, I think I might just have to run with that idea now...

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 12:54 AM

The rules make no distinction on it it either way - but the rules certainly heavily imply that someone currently suffering from an infection can still pass it on to others in the same way that they themselves were infected. which in the case of HMHVV III means touch.



I'm going to assume the rules were not carefully edited with rates of infection in mind and modify them accordingly. keep in mind that it is STILL easy to be exposed to HMHVV III during combat. A ghoul bite could do it, as could any sustained close quarters hand to hand combat with one of the infected. But touch alone wouldn't be enough. sexual contact (ewww) of course would still count as exposure.



And I ain't gonna touch the rules for being born infected. you'd have to be very very drunk indeed to nail a ghoul chick after a long night in the bar.



First off, i'm reading this thread and my MP3 player starts in with 'The man comes around' by Johnny Cash (aaaaa! zombies!) and second off - ghouls going around converting people in the ACHE would be Knight Errant's worst nightmare come true.

EDIT

the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ghouls infecting people in ACHE. imagine if the militant ghouls got in there and started...um...'recruiting' the bitter and desperate people locked up in there.

Posted by: Traul Oct 5 2009, 12:57 AM

Both parents could be ghouls.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 01:00 AM

I prefer to leave the details of ghoul sexuality to the imaginations of others.

ya sick freaks.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 5 2009, 01:00 AM

Another comparison:
VITAS-3
Vector: Inhalation
Speed: 12 hours (4)
Penetration: -2
Power: 6
Nature: Viral
Effect: Stun Damage (converts to Physical when track exceeded), Malaise, Nausea


HMHVV III
Vector: Contact
Speed: 24 hours (10)
Penetration: -6
Power: 8
Nature: Retroviral
Effect: Pain, Nausea, Essence Loss, Transformation


VITAS-3 is described as one of the deadliest plagues in existence, with a mortality rate of 50% in humans. This is, in fact, roughly accurate with the Rules as Written at a glance.

The important aspects of the comparison have been outlined.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 01:19 AM

Re: Infected Diet

If I recall, RC says an Infected character can pay an extra 10% (or thereabouts) in their lifestyle cost to cover the their unique dietary requirements (although this alone won't offset whatever legalities you had to break to GET said dietary reqs...).

Also, not all vampires are bad. I recall some fluff in either a SR novel or sourcebook from way back in the day that had some guy talking about how he knew this one considerate vampire that, instead of feeding off live victims, he would buy metahuman blood from a blood bank.

Is this still a viable option for vampires (and thus banshees, nosferatu, and other blood-drinking essence drainers)? I understand that vampires actually drink essence, not blood; blood is just the transfer medium. So, does drinking blood-bank blood still count as containing some essence?

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 01:24 AM

well...according to the Runner's companion, pg 81 - vampire player characters pick up (among other things) a dietary requirement of of metahuman blood. this is in addition to essence loss. So as I understand it correctly, that means vampires have to feed on approx a pint of blood once a week or they start to starve (just like ghouls do if they don't eat metahuman flesh). Additionally, if a vampire doesn't feed on essence at least once a month, they'll start to suffer essence loss.

so it's blood AND souls that they have to feed on or suffer the consequences.

Posted by: Muspellsheimr Oct 5 2009, 01:24 AM

Vampires require blood and Essence - it is not simply a transfer medium, it is a dietary requirement on it's own. Further, Essence Drain only functions against living sentient beings.

If you can convince your GM that the blood from a blood bank is both living & sentient, then it might work. This is very obviously a bullshit tactic though.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 01:26 AM

Yeah, it is 30% and covers blood and/or meat.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 01:27 AM

expensive. probably makes the bookkeeping easier tho.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 02:07 AM

Well, aside from whatever legal troubles you might get from, say, making deals with the Devil *COUGH!* er, Tamanous.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 02:10 AM

Well, that must've changed since 2nd Ed. (the last ed. I was familiar with). Now I really wish I could remember where I read that comment about the vamp who visited the blood bank...

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 02:13 AM

in some respects that's not TOO much different than what any other shadowrunner has to put up with...one of the themes of the game is that runners make deals with bad people so they can avoid the consequences of dealing with worse people. it's just that the infected have something a bit more wet and messy to deal with than most of the folks living in the shadows.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 02:30 AM

At least normal runners have some choice in who they make deals with. Sure, some of those people might be on the gray side of the law, but it's pretty much guaranteed those who are in the trade of providing live metahumans for Infected to feast on definitely have black, oily hearts. I doubt people who sell other people like a pet store owner sells mice to feed to pythons is not the type to go home and hug his baby girl.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 02:33 AM

ghouls don't have feed on live people, just metahuman flesh. vampires, on the other hand, they need live people to drain essence. Of course, tamanous isn't exactly saying where they're getting the ghoul chow either so if you do your shopping in their marketplace then you're probably helping to cover up a murder by eating the evidence.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 02:40 AM

The desire of law enforcement just adds to the flavor

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 02:40 AM

Yeah ghouls usually make arrangements with shadow friendly hospitol morgues. Or, you know.. get good with a shovel.

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 02:41 AM

My assassin has an 'arrangement' with a ghoul, for instance, at a good rate of pay I might add.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 02:44 AM

Eww.

Would embalmed corpses even taste good or provide any semblance of nutrition? I can't abide the smell of formaldehyde, let alone imagine what it TASTES like.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 02:48 AM

It tastes worse than it smells. I'd imagine there are some bum graves and 'super secret bury your murder victims here' graves that most people know about that wouldn't be embalmed. But your standard graveyard, yeah, that might not be that great of a place to get your meat. Doesn't it have to be at least semi-fresh?

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 02:59 AM

nope, actually is says decaying flesh is what they really want iirc

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:07 AM

yup - ghouls like their dinner to be a little past the due date, if ya knows what I mean.

so it's likely that a lot of criminal organizations would have connections to the tammies. After all, you never known when you might need to dispose of an incidental corpse or three. and if the evidence gets eaten, it can't come back to haunt you later. Tamanous strips it for parts, lets it season for a bit in the barrens somewhere, then chops it and sells it for ghoul chow.

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 03:16 AM

Yup Although there are people besides Tamanous that the ghouls can make deals with. Heck there are even ghoul gangs and their source of (not)fresh bodies mentioned by name in at least one source book I can think of. (Corporate enclaves)

Posted by: Falconer Oct 5 2009, 03:18 AM

*sigh*... I'm going to make a very strong point here.

Muspy has it right. There's no flaws in his reading here.

RAW is pretty much strictly... zombie apocalypse. It's a perfect illustration of what's wrong w/ half the things the current crop of authors write. They're authors, they do interesting fluff, but they don't think through the game effects of half of what they write. (EG: they don't write good rules half the time, and they don't catch them in playtesting/proofing; since RC/unwired this has seemed to be a problem when the quality control dropped).


Now, if you don't like it change it. But be carefull about what you change. There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ contact as a vector. If you don't like it being contact, don't fudge your way around contact... change it to injection. Read the rules, injection == aids (you come in contact w/ it and it gets in through a break in the skin, such as caused by ghoul claws/bites or some other injury).

On the disease rules, the only problem I see with them is that someone forgot that people use dice in this game... okay it's power 8. Automatic 8 successes to increase power after body reduces is where the problem w/ ALL diseases lie. If it was an opposed test I roll body, disease rolls power... increase/decrease power by net hits... rinse and repeat next day is simple and works.

As far as ghouls/infected... they're monsters for a reason. I see lots of attempts to make them 'not' monsters which make little to no sense.

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 03:21 AM

The horror of what you become, what you have to do to survive, what you -will- do to survive, and who you become, is part of the appeal.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:24 AM

A recurring theme in transhumanist fiction is the definition of humanity. If we change form and function, do we change the essential definition of what it means to be 'human'? In that respect, playing one of the infected makes a certain kind of sense. victims of circumstance, forced to consume human flesh in order to survive - do they become the monsters everyone expects them to be, or do they try to find a way to rise above their condition? can they come to terms with the disease without losing what it means to be 'human'?

monsters we are lest monsters we become.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:27 AM

not only that, but a lot of the street docs might want a local ghoul pack on call just to dispose of the odd body that comes out of an unsuccessful run.

there was mention of one of the street ddcs working on/around glow city who has started to tag patients with RFID. when something finally kills them, he can follow the signal, retrieve the body and sell it as ghoul chow.

Posted by: Falconer Oct 5 2009, 03:28 AM

At which point go play Vampire... the original point of vampire was to regain your humanity way back when.

But then some folks thought, why would I want to be lunch when I can be an even more powerfull vamp. Or in other words... coming to terms w/ your new pariah monster status.


The point still stands... if you insist on playing a ghoul... you are a monster. You are a threat to society at large. There are bounties on you for good reason. Don't expect much sympathy or anything to be easy. Especially don't expect other non-infected runners to want to socialize or work with you.

What are other players supposed to think... why don't I just cap this thing and collect the bounty? Do I want to become one of these things also?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 03:32 AM

[plug]http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=28422[/plug]

Go Zombie Apocalypse.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:32 AM

'Yo Igor, job opportunity - go gnaw on that corpsec guard while I finish hacking this node!'

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 03:34 AM

This is probably a stupid question, but for the Infection power, if a character is reduced to 0 essence and then makes at least 1 net Body + Willpower hits against the Infected's Magic + Charisma, then that character dies, right? Death seems kinda like a raw deal for winning the test.

I'm also assuming that, per the RC rules, your GM could allow you to continue playing your character as an Infected (rather than relegating the character to NPC status). So if your character got turned mid-campaign, given the inherent challenges with being an essence-ovore, would you want to continue playing as a member of the Infected?

Posted by: wind_in_the_stones Oct 5 2009, 03:36 AM

Yes. I've played ghouls twice. The first time was back in SR3. I played a full mage. Physical Mask spell so I could go out in public. I don't recall any teammates having an issue with me being a ghoul, so we must not have done much roleplaying with that aspect.

The second time was last year. I must say that the contact vector coupled with the high power is stupid. House rule that away. This character (handed to me by the GM) was an adept. I was a melee monster, with all the attribute points granted by the infection. There were a couple of characters that I had fun interactions with. We were a shadowrunning team, fully owned by a benefactor who provided me with my food. It was a short-lived campaign, but I'm sure the character would have been viable over the long haul.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:38 AM

infection is a curse, remember? you really aren't supposed to want to come back from death. especially as a soul sucking, blood drinking horror of the night.

One thing that the rules all take great pains to point out is that essence does not regenerate. you drain a little bit of someone's soul and it doesn't come back. well for most people anyway. that's the sort of thing that really has to hit home to anyone playing a vampire. ESPECIALLY if they're a mage. they can see that they're polluting astral space when they feed. even if it's only a little bit at a time, they're doing something fundamentally wrong and they know it.

but that's the price of power and immortality.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 04:09 AM

So, how exactly does a wendigo infect somebody with HMHVV? If it got its victim down to 0 Essence, the victim likely doesn't have any body parts left because the wendigo ate them all already.

I'm just picturing an Infected metatype with no arms and legs, being wheeled around on a cart, acting all fierce and such.

Posted by: The Dragon Girl Oct 5 2009, 04:35 AM

But why play a vampire when you can play something thats much more horrifying, no neat tidy blood letting. You are consuming decayed metahuman flesh, and its not like you have he draw of power and influence that a vampire has.. no -character- would want to be a ghoul, but the player might. ..Plus theres that risk of going completely insane, not all ghouls survive the fever with their minds intact.

as for what the other teammates would think?
..well my assassin is in love with a ghoul doctor who was infected in his line of work. He struggles with what he is... and she pretty much only takes the wetwork jobs to make sure the silly slotter doesn't starve to death. And they're both rather upset that neither one of them is having troubles keeping their lunch over the whole business anymore. They pretty much keep each other sane, and more human than they would be otherwise. ...and hes asked her to put a bullet through him if he ever goes off the deep end.

Posted by: Starmage21 Oct 5 2009, 04:48 AM

Doesnt mean you cant have a little fun until your ride on the "immortality train" is over. After awhile, most of the ageless creatures are going to get freaking bored and off themselves. It takes a certain kind of personality to live through eons.

Posted by: wind_in_the_stones Oct 5 2009, 05:04 AM

And this is different from being a shadowrunner how? Ghouls just have a different preference of the loot they take home from shadowruns.

Posted by: Tachi Oct 5 2009, 05:55 AM

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.
Frederich Neitzsche
Beyond Good and Evil
Aphorism 146

If you look into the abyss long enough, you will become the abyss. No ghoul, no matter how good of a person they may have started out, can remain good indefinately. They all eventually succumb to the abyss. You can only eat people for so long before you become a cannibal at heart.

Posted by: toturi Oct 5 2009, 07:02 AM

Ah, that's why you make sure that the abyss blinks first. When you gaze into the abyss long enough, it will blink. The weak succumb to the abyss, the strong makes the abyss avoid their gaze.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Oct 5 2009, 07:38 AM

Ok first off to the OP: I have both run for and played ghoul characters. I have found they had no problems in previous editions froma power level standpoint in fact they were a little on the weak side. In fourth edition as long as your not being too silly with the contact vector I don't forsee a problem. It is in fact the most glaring issue with ghoul characters. Vampires and Nosferatue are more tricky due to their increasing power level and the need of the team to work around their schedule.

Every ghoul I have ever played or ran for have been fairly low key. They've taken steps to hide their status and have generally observed their own ghoulish habits from anything from a character defining tragic addiction to an annoyance. Actually the biggest problem one of my ghouls had with his status was not only was he forced to consume metahuman flesh but he couldn't eat cooked meat period. Which even though his physiology could handle it, he found it disgusting.

Also one important thing to bear in mind, depending on the tribe and geography many cultures especially amongst native americans a high value is not placed on the disposition of remains. A body is just a body at some point. I can't see the sixth world, given that it is supposidly horribly loose on many other morals building it's entrenched moral perogative on canibalism. It can be a victimless affliction.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 5 2009, 08:22 AM

Technically, Ghouls could be used as Shedim-Prevention . .

Posted by: Karoline Oct 5 2009, 09:49 AM

Nosferatu have a schedule problem, Vampires don't really. They just need to put on some sun glasses and wear an armored longcoat and they should be more or less fine. They only have a light allergy. That's like... they sneeze fairly often in sunlight.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 5 2009, 03:12 PM

Hey, at least they don't sparkle.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 5 2009, 03:27 PM

Nah, that's the immoral elves . .

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 5 2009, 10:22 PM

How uncreative you are. Get a bone marrow sample from a willing donar, and have them clone it and use it to produce blood using the med tech in augmentation. As for the essence requirement, eat clones. They have no sin, and so its not illegal.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 5 2009, 10:42 PM

First off, from what I understand, growing clones is EXPENSIVE, and the average ghoul character is not going to be extravagantly wealthy. Also, full clones don't grow very fast, which means you'd need a LOT of them to keep you fed on a regular basis.

If growing clones was a cheap, fast, and viable option for ghoul characters, then why doesn't Tamanous do that? Then they wouldn't have to cut open non-cloned people to sell organs on the black market.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 6 2009, 12:06 AM

Maybe it wouldn't be necessary to grow a FULL clone, maybe just the bits with more nutritional value. And it wouldn't have to be a perfect clone either, esp since ghouls like their dinner to be past the due date anyways. I wonder how difficult it would be to mass produce cloned organs, esp if they didn't exactly have to be completely functional....?



well...I don't think the tammies are interested in legitimate bio-tech startups. they fill a particular niche in the underground market and one not likely to crop up among the masses of office drones and SINers.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 6 2009, 01:48 AM

Wasn't thinking ghoul. Was thinking vampire. Ghouls can eat from hospital wastes.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 6 2009, 02:00 AM

Also SR4 has made it reasonably simple to fake money, which you can then launder, and turn into real money to pay for the clones. Or you can shell out for a facility and grow your own.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 6 2009, 02:26 AM

But there's still the issue of growth rate. I can't recall how fast you can grow a fully adult clone, but just so long as your conscience is fine with draining the life out of a toddler every once in a while...

And this makes me think of a slightly off-topic but valid question:

An unmodified adult human has an Essence of 6, but does a newborn start with 6 Essence the moment it emerges from the womb, or does it gain Essence points as it matures towards adulthood? I mean, I highly doubt a toddler can handle as much cyberware or provide as much drinkable blood as a grownup can.

A cybered toddler. That thought makes me cringe.

Posted by: wind_in_the_stones Oct 6 2009, 04:51 AM

Sure it can. It's just limited by the size of the implants.

When in doubt, don't allow such characters as PCs.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 6 2009, 05:24 AM

I wasn't suggesting toddlers as PCs. It was more for the sake of argument of how "nutritious" a clone that's been grown to toddler age would be for a vampire.

I mean, if, say, a toddler had only 1 or 2 points of essence because it's not that big yet, is it worth farming clones to that age if all you're going to get is little more than a snack?

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 6 2009, 06:17 AM

There is a glitch : Essence Drain only works on a SENTIENT being, so IMHO a mindless, blank clone fresh from the vat won't provide a vampire with what he need, and neither an adult brain-dead from an accident.

A more ethical possiblity would be Essence-draining voluntary subject, and use the restoration genetic therapy to "repair" what you've taken from them. But it is hideously expensive (275.000 per essence point).

Posted by: Karoline Oct 6 2009, 07:45 AM

Or you could just offer the dregs of the sixth world 1000 to let you drain some of their essence. The best part is that people who are drained become addicted, so they would come back to you and beg to be drained again. "Okay, I'll drain you again, but I don't really need it, so I'll only give you 500." "Yeah, sure, whatever man, just do it!"

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 6 2009, 07:50 AM

There's also plenty of people who you could drain that nobody would care about - pimps, gang bangers, low level drug dealers, various and sundry cheap thugs. A vampire could decide to feed only on the 'dregs of society' and probably do quite well for itself. In fact, you could even say they were doing the local community a favor.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 6 2009, 07:53 AM

I'm not a horrible monster, I'm just societies equivalent of a garbage man. I take out the trash

Posted by: Traul Oct 6 2009, 08:57 AM

Here comes the horrid truth: Batman is a vampire.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 6 2009, 09:00 AM

No matter how much you try and justify it, after all is said and done, no matter what justification, ghouls and vampires are still sick and twisted leeches on legs, eating and drinking the flesh and blood of (meta)humans.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 6 2009, 09:00 AM

Only if you grow it to adult hood.
A nine month old baby clone on the other hand would work just fine.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 6 2009, 10:43 AM

...and would probably qualify as a human being, making the legality of the whole process rather dubious.

Wimps for cloned transplants are grown without the higher brain structures IMHO not only because they are not necessary for their intended purpose, but also to allow their harvesting without possible legal complications.

Posted by: nezumi Oct 6 2009, 11:39 AM

I've done a ghoul in SR3 (character was infected during gameplay). The party already knew him, and he had some tools to hide his nature. Since he was an adept, it didn't suck nearly as much as it could have. He didn't last long, unfortunately, when a team member cast fireball nearby in a room coated with highly flammable paranormal monster goo, booby-trapped with napalm bombs, while the character carried half a dozen C-4 detonators and a few parcels of C-4. It was... a quick roll.


I've considered adding a mopey, emo vampire who chastely pursues high school girls, but haven't gotten around to it yet.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 6 2009, 11:48 AM

And THAT was an Coinkydink? x.x

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 6 2009, 03:33 PM

some of them are, yes. But some of them also retain their humanity. And that's where life gets interesting for the poor bastards.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 6 2009, 03:36 PM

Just in case you haven't seen this one yet, here's how Twilight SHOULD have ended:

[img]http://liveforfilms.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/twilightblade.jpg[/img]

hmm....damn forum won't let me post inline images. ah well - y'all can just copy/paste the damn link for yourselves.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 6 2009, 04:09 PM

4 weeks, sped grown.

Also, for essence, don't forget to eat your Watcher Spirits.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 6 2009, 04:12 PM

Link is broken

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM

This doesn"t work, you need a physical sentient subject. Zoocanthropes, naga, pixies and other meta-sapient would qualify, but not spirits as they are astral creatures, not physical, even when manifesting.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 6 2009, 08:34 PM

Heh, that sure would have made it more interesting.

http://liveforfilms.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/twilightblade.jpg

Posted by: Neraph Oct 6 2009, 11:00 PM

Epic.


This is what I get for not reading something completely before posting..

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 7 2009, 12:21 AM

Ok, stupid quest, can a vampire get cosmetic surgery? or would they simply regen any procedure done to them?

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 7 2009, 12:21 AM

edit, multipost

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 7 2009, 12:30 AM

It's possible for the Infected (including vampires) to have cyberware or bioware implants. But it's extremely difficult and expensive. Any cosmetic surgery would have to be done using specially cultivated tissue. Delta grade all the way.

it would be easier to use nanopaste disguises and the occasional illusion spell.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 7 2009, 01:12 AM

would it get regenerated, if the procedure was done before they got changed?

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 7 2009, 01:20 AM

I would say no. and if done with delta grade bio and cyberware implants, it wouldn't regenerate even after they were infected.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 7 2009, 01:23 AM

cyber you had in there gets kicked out by regeneration.
regeneration basically tells your body how it has to look and makes it so.
why would you say that this does not count for plastic chirurgy?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 01:29 AM

From the book: Any creature with regeneration must get deltaware grade implants because of the difficulty that their bodies cause, and any cosmetic surgery only lasts a few days as their body repairs the modifications made to it.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 7 2009, 09:38 AM

I'd be surprised to think it would last more then a few minutes, but ya, that's what I was thinking, I was just wondering if because it has no 'combat' effect it was somehow exempt.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 10:10 AM

Yeah, I was kinda surprised about that too consider that a creature with regeneration can get rid of any wound up to death within a few seconds. I'd imagine the fact that they are actually implanting stuff and/or crating scars might have something to do with it. That or it is just one of those 'handwave to make it an option for a short term disguise' type of things.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 7 2009, 10:21 AM

Okay, remember the bit I said earlier about reading somewhere about some vampire who drank blood from blood banks rather than drinking from unwilling victims because he was a decent "human being"? Well, I found it.

From Threats (FASA, 1996), pg 32:

>>>>>([writer of the article being discussed] is no better than the bigot he started off denouncing. I knew a vampire named Victor DeLann; ran a bar called The Count's here in San Francisco. He bought his blood from hospitals, or drank small amounts from people who wanted to see how it felt. Victor wouldn't hurt a fly. But some fool watched one too many reruns of Kill the Dead, then broke into Victor's apartment just after dawn and staked him while he was sleeping. Some people just can't coexist with anyone different.)<<<<<
--Darwin (07:20:49/05-25-57)

This tidbit makes it sound like Victor could have survived solely on blood and wasn't a monster. Did the rules for vampires' essence drain and dietary requirements change from 2nd edition to 4th edition? I know that banshees changed: back in SR2, banshees drained essence directly from someone's fear when they used their fear/paralyzing howl on their victim, and I don't remember a thing about banshees actually drinking blood back then. Why the changes, I wonder?

EDIT: SR2, pg 221:
"Unlike the vampire, [a banshee] appears to survive completely on Essence derived from its terrified victims."

Also noticed vampires used to have a severe sunlight allergy in SR2. So did the daywalker retrovirus (or whatever it was called) that was being worked on in the SR novel The Terminus Experiment actually work?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 10:28 AM

I'm guessing that a Vampire's diet changed at some point from just blood to blood and essence. There is no way you could get essence from blood, because donating blood (and bleeding) don't cost you essence, so there is no essence in the blood to drain away.

As for the severe allergy? I don't know, that could just be a case of the mechanics changing enough that the old severe is the new moderate (Not mild like I think I posted earlier). No idea about the daywalker retrovirus, could be. Nosferatu still have severe allergy, so they have to stay inside during the day.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 7 2009, 10:33 AM

Or use an "Alleviate Allergy" spell.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 7 2009, 12:35 PM

[quote name='Karoline' date='Oct 7 2009, 04:28 AM' post='853065']
I'm guessing that a Vampire's diet changed at some point from just blood to blood and essence. There is no way you could get essence from blood, because donating blood (and bleeding) don't cost you essence, so there is no essence in the blood to drain away.
[\quote]
The blood would have to have some essence of its own, as you can assense it, and it isn't dead. SR seems pretty clear that no essence = dead.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 12:41 PM

You can assense a pool of blood? Since when? I've never heard of that.

Also, even if it does have essence (Which seems odd), doesn't mean it qualifies for vampire draining.

Plants have essence (I think) but a vampire can't feed on his rose garden.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 7 2009, 05:00 PM

Personally I figure that the poster of the Shadowtalk simply didn't understand what his vampire friend was "really" doing to those people who wanted to see what it felt like to be sipped from. The blood from the bank would satify his requirement to drink blood, and the "willing victims" handled his requirement to dine upon the souls of people.

As far as I remember, vamps have always had the requirement to do both.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 05:17 PM

Hehe, that would make alot of sense. It isn't like they can go "Hey man, my essence just went down a point, what is that all about?"

Posted by: Ravor Oct 7 2009, 05:24 PM

Aye, and it is also possible that the vamp in question might not have really understood what he was doing either, just that "fresh" blood tasted better than the stale crap from the banks and that every once in a while he got cravings for the good stuff.

I think, my memory is a little fuzzy on whether or not the soul sucking undead (Yes, yes I know that they aren't "really" undead.) are reborn with an understanding of how and why their feeding powers works.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 7 2009, 05:41 PM

It should be noted that the delta-grade implants only matter post-Infection. Pre-Infection implants should not be affected by the Infected Implant rules, as they were gained before the character had to play under those rules.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 7 2009, 05:44 PM

Unless my memory is failing me, I seem to recall that pre-vamp implants were subject to the entire "rejection" process as well.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 7 2009, 05:46 PM

no, they don't innately know the details of their powers and limitations. a lot of them suffer from psychosomatic symptoms if they see a holy symbol or get hit by garlic soaked silver bullets. If the only thing you have to go on regarding your condition is the Blade movies, then that's what you'd tend to believe.

Now, later on they might figure it out and stop acting like a sparkly vampire from Twilight....but until then they're going to be pretty messed up.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 07:55 PM

There is nothing explicitly stated either way about that in RC. It just says... I figure it means that if they have lower grade implants they'll still stay in, but the trouble of regeneration can only be circumvented by the much higher level of medical practice required when implanting deltaware systems.

Of course you could also easily interpreted it as anything that isn't deltaware grade is considered foreign and so 'healed' from the body.

Posted by: Sponge Oct 7 2009, 08:26 PM

I seem to recall reading something recently that did explicitly state it, might have been in Running Wild (for which I don't have the PDF handy here to check at the moment).

Posted by: Ravor Oct 7 2009, 10:04 PM

Also I'm pretty sure that is the way it has always been through the editions, suppose I could be wrong though...

Posted by: AK404 Oct 7 2009, 10:09 PM

To the OP, the answer would most probably be, "I would let a player role-play an infected character if they knew how to role-play an infected character."

Posted by: Sponge Oct 7 2009, 11:38 PM

Ok, found it (emphasis mine):

Posted by: Karoline Oct 7 2009, 11:45 PM

Hmm, but that is distinctly different from the statement in RC that they can have bio/cyberware so long as it is delta grade. I suppose you can put them together and say it will reject any cyberware that isn't delta grade... it doesn't mention bioware though... odd.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 8 2009, 01:37 AM

Since Running Wild is a newer release, I'd think any rules presented in that conflict with previously established rules (i.e. RC) would trump the older rules.

From what I understand, Catalyst will be republishing the core rule books (possibly in full color, I hear?) as part of the 20th Anniversary bash. I would have to wonder if they would update RC's rules to mesh with those in Running Wild?

Posted by: Sponge Oct 8 2009, 03:23 AM

Well that bit I quoted was from the fluff section, not the hard rules - so deltaware may still be fine by RAW, but the fluff illustrates the intent that preimplanted (non-delta-)cyberware does indeed get ejected from the host after infection.

Posted by: Joe Chummer Oct 8 2009, 03:31 AM

Fluff or not, I would NOT want to be in the room when a new vampire expels all non-deltaware cyber from their body. Ick.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 8 2009, 04:35 AM

That's what I get for not having the most current rulebook. Also, as we've demonstrated many times over, crunch > fluff. Fluff is flavoring for the crunch, but you generally don't eat the herbs for the meat.

Also, the part in Runner's Companion is an optional rule, so maybe an optional rule bypasses a rule suggested from a flavor-text area.

Posted by: Hagga Oct 13 2009, 09:01 AM

What about geneware? Is that rewritten and the essence loss restored, too?

Posted by: Starmage21 Oct 13 2009, 01:22 PM

Yeah, HMHVV completely overwrites all geneware.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 13 2009, 03:57 PM

I'm sure that this has been answered somewhere else, but I don't remember. If you've got a street sam with 0.5 essence and he gets infected all his cyber (which wasn't delta grade) gets expunged. Is he now back to the base 6.0 essence, or is he left with his measly half point and doomed to live the remainder of his life on the edge of starvation and with no powers to speak of?

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 13 2009, 04:08 PM

Depends on the infection he gets.
If he simply loses 1 point as a GHOUL? he is dead, with most of his cyber still in there.
If he gets DRAINED TO DEATH by a VAMPIRE? All of it gets kicked out, and he rises 48 hours later as a new vampire with 0 or 1 essence and he MUST feed withint some minutes/hours or simply die and STAY DEAD this time.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 13 2009, 04:30 PM

I had *one* player opt to make a vampire player character for my game. much less than expected and with only 400 BP, she had to sacrifice a LOT of goodies to play an infected. So we'll see how this goes.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 13 2009, 04:34 PM

i like my cyber/bio-toys too much to play something like that

Posted by: Apathy Oct 13 2009, 06:27 PM

But when he does feed, is he subject to a maximum essence of (2 times normal essence) 1.0? or 12?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 13 2009, 06:40 PM

I believe he would jump back up to 6 essence max. Just like a normal human has been drained of all their essence, and so is technically at 0 when they die and are reborn as vampires. I see no reason why the essence lost to cyberware before being turned would be any more permanent than the essence lost to essence drain before being turned.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 13 2009, 06:44 PM

He
aint
human
anymore.
Human limits don't apply to the new vampire.
He is exactly like any other Vampire, statswise.
Only slightly different in background story ^^

Posted by: Apathy Oct 13 2009, 06:46 PM

Here's a stupid question: If a vampire didn't know any better and tried to feed on a cyberzombie, would he just be unable to feed, or would his own essence get sucked out by the essence vacuum of the CZ?

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 13 2009, 06:47 PM

There are no stupid questions, but there sure are many curious idiots ^^
Essence does not work like that.
He simply can't feed on the zombie. Better wuestion would be how the vampire is affected by the zombies background count.

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 14 2009, 09:16 AM

Essence loss can't be reversed (except by a very expesive Genetherapy,described in Bodytech,I think ? )
So the Sam is a 0,5 Essence Vampire without any 'ware
(and Stahlseele ist right.He ain't Human anymore,but that doesn't matter ,his essence is still gone

with a human Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 14 2009, 09:49 AM

I don't want to say that you are wrong old dancer, but i would like to hear your reasoning for this O.o
He goes down to 0 Essence, he gets changed, all his cyber and bio gets kicked out, he is basically a completely new entity.
He starts like all other vampires with 0 Essence or something like that and then has to feed off of someone unfortunate enough to be close enough by.
Then he adheres to the usual vampire rules which say he can feed up to a certain ammount. Vampires have variable essence numbers anyway, they go both ways.
Up and down and up and down. Elevator up and down. So why should the fact that he had a maximum of 0,5 Essence in a past life be carried over to this "life"?

Posted by: Karoline Oct 14 2009, 10:10 AM

I mostly agree with you Stahlseele, but don't forget they can only go to max essence x 2. While they usually have a max of 6, there are ways they can lose max essence just like anyone else (Addictions, cyberware, etc), so you can't say that their max essence doesn't matter.

However, AFAIK essence drain from the power of the same name is permanent by all regards, and is considered essence loss in the same way that cyberware is (Except that you don't get to filll the hole with new toys). So, if a newly formed vampire can recover from having their essence drained by the old vampire, why wouldn't they be able to recover from the essence lost from all that old cyberware now that it is gone? Honestly because of the unique nature of their bodies and spirits, I figure even if they had delta grade implants that stuck with them (And thus lowered their max essence) but then later got rid of them, there is no reason their bodies and spirits wouldn't be able to completely recover the essence lost from the ware, pulling their max essence back up to 6.

Posted by: Hagga Oct 14 2009, 01:10 PM

I suppose an infected in full sunlight could function as long as they wore a full set of armour. But the visuals couldn't be optics, electronic - otherwise their eyes would be getting a full dose of sunlight.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 14 2009, 03:32 PM

He still retains the essence hole from his cyberware. Hence, he still retains the negative essence from said 'ware. You don't remake a character, you simply add a template.

Posted by: Starmage21 Oct 14 2009, 03:42 PM

But the cyberware is pushed out, so theres no reason for there to be said hole, unless you really just want to screw over infected characters, which is what it sounds like.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 14 2009, 04:49 PM

And that template includes the power of regeneration. Augmentation has less intensive healing procedures which repair essence loss, and I see no reason regen would not be able to manage this little trick so long as the vamp in question as even a single point of magic to be making his roles with.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 14 2009, 05:11 PM

Magic + bod, so he doesn't even need magic (But vampires start with 1 point of magic anyway)

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 14 2009, 05:49 PM

Don't they lose regen if they have no magic? I could be wrong on this, but I thought they did. If no, then ya, so long as they have a single point in body they should continue to heal.

Posted by: Hagga Oct 14 2009, 10:48 PM

Just because you lose the ware doesn't mean it comes back; otherwise characters could get their ware taken out and go chomp on some immortal flower. I could see geneware since the code is rewritten entirely, but not much else.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 15 2009, 02:34 AM

Because being turned into a vampire doesn't totally rewrite your genes (Which by the way makes you unable to get any sort of geneware). The main differences between vampires and basically every other kind of PC are 1. The essence shuffle that vampires do naturally and 2. Regeneration power. Both of these would seem to strongly suggest that a vampire would be able to recover from 'ware essence hole.

Also, AFAIK there isn't any direct rule that says no magic = no special abilities for vampires, but I could be wrong.

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 15 2009, 07:56 AM

If Cyberware is removed from the Body it leaves an Essencehole. Thats the Rule. I'm sorry I can't provide the exact Page in the BBB. but It can be looked up.

And the Power Regeneration does not regenerate Essence(not by RAW) !

HougH!
Medicineman

Posted by: The Jake Oct 15 2009, 09:20 AM

Read the rules on Infected. Specifically Runner's Companion. It explains this quite well.

- J.

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 15 2009, 09:41 AM

In a few Days I will get the german copy, then I'll re-Read it. Thanks

Hough!
Medicineman

Looks down to Stahlseele

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 15 2009, 12:26 PM

now let's just hope the german edition did not get any modifications and does not suffer from the translation too much . .
also, a "few" days, not a 'vew' days

Posted by: Sengir Oct 15 2009, 02:48 PM

Augmentation says: The removal of an augmentation that costs Essence results in an “Essence hole” that does not normally regenerate. However being transformed into an undead bloodsucker is not exactly what I'd call "regenerate normally", neither is a vampire's healing ability. So unless it got changed in the German ed (like the difference between cyber and bio essence holes), I would say that there is no RAW for this scenario and the GM has to decide for himself.

Posted by: LurkerOutThere Oct 15 2009, 03:23 PM

You can say that if you like, however your wrong. It's like saying that your ares predator can cast fireballs because the rules don't specifically state that it can't. Essence hoels do not come back without very specific curatives. Vampirism is not one of those stated curatives. If they had meant otherwise (which there isn't evidence they did) they should/would have spelled that out.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 15 2009, 03:44 PM

The regeneration power specifically states that it can only regenerate physical or stun damage. Last time I checked, Essence loss is not even damage, it is a loss of essence.



Yes... If the area you're reffering to is the Magic and Essence header, the problem is that that is intended to be read by people who are creating an Infected in gameplay. If you are instead referring to HMHVV I, that section is ambiguous. It does not properly cover what happens in cases when the Infected has low essence from other sources before Infection.



Emphasis added, inherent tpyographical errors included.

Emphasis added. Now, the real debate would be whether or not Regeneration is a magical or physical power. Since it requires a Magic + Body Test, I could see a strong argument for it being a magical power. On the other hand, however, since you cannot regen magical damage, I could see an argument made that it is in fact a physical power.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 15 2009, 04:24 PM

That's your interpretation. The rules simply state that a Vampire's essence becomes 1, not a single word on how this works with previous essence loss.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 15 2009, 04:27 PM

Exactly, and that is why you are totally and completely wrong Sengir, if the default and universal rules that govern Essence Holes were meant to be overruled by vamperism than the devs would have spelled that little tidbit out.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 15 2009, 04:52 PM

Exactly, and that is why you are totally and completely wrong Ravor, if the default and universal rules that govern vamperism were meant to be overruled by Essence Holes than the devs would have spelled that little tidbit out.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 15 2009, 05:01 PM

Nice try, but the Essence Hole Rules are applied universally across the board to everything in the Sixth World, you can't say the same about vamperism or I want regen for all of my characters damnit!

Or to spell it out as simply and slowly as possible the Essence Rules are the Status Quo and if any given part isn't directly overidden by another rule then you are SOL.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 15 2009, 05:30 PM

This is a much more aggressive version of my belief, but I do side with Ravor (*gasp!*). The longstanding rule of Essence holes existed before Infected were playable characters, so by Law of First Mention, that rule stands and Infected have to follow it.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 15 2009, 05:35 PM

...which is what we are talking about: Does "essence becomes 1" override previous essence loss or not? I can see common sense reasons for both sides, but the RAW are completely ambigious.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 15 2009, 05:52 PM

We're not really talking about the infected character's starting essence, but about the infected character's max essence, right? So the question seems [to me] to boil down to whether the newly-infected character is the same being with the same aura as the original, or if the vamp is a new being freshly created, who happens to possess the memories, skills, and abilities of the original.

The original question was open to confusion because his pre-infection essence was 0.5 and he could infect and wake up with 1.0 essence without violating the 'max times 2) restriction.

Another variation of the question: If a near-CZ character with only 0.01 essence left gets infected and becomes a vampire, how much essence does he awake with? The rules unambiguously state that he wakes up with 1 essence and a ravenous hunger. But the rules also state that his essence can't be boosted beyond his max essence times two. If you believe that essence holes carry over, then his maximum possible essence after he feeds is 0.01 x 2 = 0.02. Which rule stands?

Posted by: Screaming Eagle Oct 15 2009, 06:12 PM

Frankly I'm amused enough by both options to roll dice to see what happens, lets call it an edge test threshold 2:

A full essence regened vamp who feeds and then follows the default vamp rule. you are now one of the infected... congrats I guess?

or

Keep the essence loss and make a .02 essence vamp who is always scant hours away from starving to death. A ravening beast that soon gets put down. You have escaped what some call a fate worse then death... congrats I guess?

Both make me laugh.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 15 2009, 07:09 PM

Hm, I considered both of those to have the same essence hole...so under the "holes remain" assumption, a formerly augmented character could awake with 0 essence, as "a starved predator that hunts for fresh Essence with mindless ferocity".
If starting essence is always at one but the max essence is influenced by essence holes, it gets downright silly (see your example).

So for me the possible options are:
1.) Both the starting and the maximum essence of the new Vapire are modified by the essence losses from his old life. But hey, you are immortal so maybe you will live to find enough delta implants to fill those holes and a clinic willing to install them.
2.) Essence is reset, along with the whole DNA, aura, metabolism and whatnot. The char starts at 1 Essence with a maximum of 6.


Oh, another question: What happens with preinstalled deltaware during the transformation? Sure, Vampires can accept deltaware because it is custom made for their body, but what about the implants which were made to fit their old body?

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 15 2009, 08:17 PM

yeesh. this discussion has gone places I'd never have imagined...

Posted by: Screaming Eagle Oct 15 2009, 08:23 PM

Ya they'll do that...

Posted by: Hagga Oct 15 2009, 11:11 PM

Starting a topic on any forum is like GMing.

GMing is like herding cats. Wet, angry cats who are pumped full of LSD and methamphetamines.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 02:40 AM

Oiy, when Neraph and I start agreeing tis surely a sign that the end is nigh. (Even if we agree for what I think are totally different reasons.)

Now that I'm slightly less cranky (Flirting with a pretty girl tends to do that even though it was cut short since she ended up in the hostiple.) I'd respond that beings we've been told repeatably that vampires don't really die when they ae turned and aren't undead and that we should consider them as people with magical AIDs as opposed to monsters then they don't get a new shiny aura and their max Essence stays the same.

Of course this means your ( Essence 0.01 ) Street Sam turned vamp is either a mindless monster with zero Essence or simply fails to be turned at all due to a rounding error, but I see the rules as being fairly solid on the matter.

Posted by: Tachi Oct 16 2009, 02:55 AM

OMFG, how did you flirt a girl into the hospital? I hope it's a good story so we can use it against you at a later date.

I apologize to the OP in advance if this derails the thread, but I simply must know.

*Warning, emoticon induced overload imminent...*

Posted by: Starmage21 Oct 16 2009, 03:03 AM

This is the one I agree with. Their cyber gets pushed out, bioware gets cannibalized, and geneware gets rewritten. Theres no reason, except the screwing over of the player, to retain the idea that somehow someone who is drained to 0 essence and comes back with 1, but someone with less than 6 maximum essence because of cyber(that gets pushed out during the transformation anyway) has to be treated differently. If you still want the mindless bloodsucking monsters, ghouls still work.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:12 AM

Why because she ran out into traffic to escape my bad poetry and even worse singing of course.


In all seriousness though she was already sick when I saw her today and her coworkers were able to covince her to go in, thank god.

Posted by: Tachi Oct 16 2009, 03:50 AM

Yeah, a likely story...

*Operating on what conspiracy theorists laughingly consider 'logic'*
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, therefore, it must be the truth.

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Oct 16 2009, 04:26 AM

Oh, that's quoted in my sig from now on. I hurt from laughing. Thank you for that.

To post something on topic, I'd honestly go with the re-writing of the victim's DNA such that it repairs things to full essence. The reason for this is that the virus is automatically making *massive* physiological changes to the victim to create the vampire, enough so that the resulting being requires it's own statblock and in-game scientific classification. For all practical purposes, that which you were no longer exists, thus you're starting as a nice shiny new vampire.

That said, the rules as written are obviously ambiguous or we wouldn't be having this discussion. I can see it going either way. Though honestly, I'd personally never subject a near-CZ sam to this treatment without the player giving the OK, especially if we keep essence holes.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 04:53 AM

Naw, we're Dumpshockers, we can argue over the meaning of even the clearest written of rules.

Tachi I wish, at least than I'd have an idea of how bad it was, its probably nothing, but I hate not knowing...

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 05:10 AM

I'm just of the opinion about the regen issue that if you can undergo a cellular regeneration treatment and get your essence holes filled in, having a body that does that all the time, 24/7 is likely going to have a similar effect. As far as previously existing deltaware goes, the reason a vamp can accept delta ware is because its made with allergens his body doesn't want to touch to expel, so unless his doctor had the foresight required to include those allergens in the pre-vamp delta ware, it should get pushed out along with everything else.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 05:40 AM

I have to disagree, if the implants were laced with allergens it would seem to me that the vamp's regen would completely cease. Tis my understanding that the surgery is done with allergen laced tools but not the implant itself.

Deltaware Cyber/Bio is just so compatable with the vamp that her own body can't tell the difference.


You do bring up and excellent arguement for resetting the vamp's max Essence though, I'll have to give the issue more thought from a fluff standpoint.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 16 2009, 06:03 AM

"essence becomes 1" is very different than "you have 5.5 points of essence lost in a vaccum".

EDIT: this was written before I read page 8 of comments. I really need to get Running Wild in order to understand where everyone else is coming from, because evidentally it has a lot of info about this.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 16 2009, 08:11 AM

Go to the hospital and ask. Show that you care. Chicks dig that shit y0 O.o

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 08:22 AM

Thought about it, but we are still in that extremely arkward phase where neither one of us is quite sure where the comfortable bounderies lay and I don't want to come off as too strong either, when I said flirting that is what I meant. Besides, can't get a sitter for my daughters so tis a moot point.

If she's still in there tomorrow I'll have to do that.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 16 2009, 09:21 AM

But the fluff still states that there are massive changes to the whole organism (complete DNA swap included), and the aura at least gets modified to show the new, infected, infected, nature.
On the other hand, fluff also says Vampires don't have own essence (and thus have to get it elsewhere), so one could argue that this also means they don't get any essenc back.



Well, Sams are praying all the time that the Universe does not run on Pentiums...

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:20 PM

Sure, but bare in mind that everytime you get a cold your aura reflects that change, and the fluff also tells us that the vamp is just a person with magical AIDs, albeit magical AIDS that requires the newly minted monster to literally devour souls in order to stay alive.

Posted by: Weaver95 Oct 16 2009, 04:28 PM

it's also somewhat harder to catch than AIDS/HIV. well...the vampire strain is anyways. The ghoul version is actually easier to catch than HIV and a lot less fun.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 04:33 PM

Sure, but that is neighter here nor there, although if we are going to talk about how easily transmittable the various strains are the ghoul strain is almost as easy to catch as the common fragging cold and without some of the best medical care the Sixth World can provide you will transform into a monster.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 17 2009, 05:24 PM

...and completely rewrites the victim's DNA, probably along with the mitochondrial DNA (since Vampires have a _slightly_ different metabolism). In other words, an Infected is literally no longer himself.

Posted by: Tachi Oct 17 2009, 11:27 PM

Take flowers...

Posted by: Ravor Oct 18 2009, 04:06 PM

Sengir sure, but my response would be that if the virus did all that to that point then the vamp really shouldn't be considered merely a person with magical AIDs and be moved into the monster side of the line. Also unless the virus has the capable for "Naming" then the DNA rewrite should cost Essence as opposed to restoring it.

Tachi moot point, she's fine and we're back to happily flirting with each other.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 20 2009, 04:39 AM

Since when did HMHVV completely rewrite the Infected's DNA? It was my understanding that it was simply a magical retro-virus, which only rewrites a section of the DNA. If it completely rewrote DNA, many things would change, such as: gender, height, weight, hair color, eye color, kind (dog, cat, horse, human...), metatype, metavariant, ethnicity, body shape, ect, ect..

And by the writing it appears that any additional Genetech added is rewritten, but previous Genetech should remain, as it has been successfully assimilated as part of the natural DNA prior to Infection.

Posted by: Hagga Oct 20 2009, 08:24 AM

In many cases, bodyshape, eye colour, hair (amount), weight can change. Massive bodily changes, like, say, secreting acid or growing armour plates or having your hormonal secretions change to drive you utterly berserk once a month.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 20 2009, 08:44 AM

Also, one could make a case for metatype and metavariant to be changed by HMHVV.
Human becomes Ghoul. Not Human anymore. Elves become Banshee, not Elf anymore.

Posted by: Sengir Oct 20 2009, 01:50 PM

Well, if your complete DNA was replaced by mine (very big "if", but let's just assume it is possible) that would be a major rewrite and you would look quite different, even though only a tiny fraction of the base pairs would actually be different and you would still be completely human. So after HMHVV is done "recoding the body’s DNA in its own image" (Running Wild, p. 59), from a genetic POV a vampire is probably no less human than anybody with SURGE or a few transgenetic treatments.


PS:

PMS is an infected quality?

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 20 2009, 02:17 PM

Yes, one of the infected goes stark raving mad for 3 days a month, killing anything in it's path, not even feeding or sleeping in that time i think.
after that, it crashes, sleeps and then has to feed. and then it happens again, 4 weeks later.

Posted by: Neraph Oct 20 2009, 03:51 PM

I know HMHVV can trigger SURGE, but SURGE and a complete re-writing of the genetic code are two vastly different things. SURGE is simply the activation of a dormant gene sequence.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 20 2009, 06:54 PM

Good point Sengir, but I'd still agrue that doing so would cost me Essence even if the end result was still "human". After all, plastic surgery result in less of a change and it costs Essence.

Posted by: Hagga Oct 20 2009, 10:47 PM

Loup-Garou.
Weaknesses: Allergy (Aconite, Moderate), Allergy (Horseradish, Moderate), Allergy (Sunlight, Moderate), and dietary requirement (Metahuman Flesh). During the 4–6 day peak of its 28-day cycle, a Loup-Garou will become savage and go berserk as a Bear shaman and is treated as if it had a rating 2 adrenaline pump. Fun stuff.


Some HMHVV variants change your eye colour specifically; I'd wager that a few cause it with the vision change. Some metavariants grow more armour plates, the fomoraig have defensive secretions. Bandersnatchii need an urgent visit to a dentist and their pelt goes funny. Some gain vulnerabilities. They tend to, you know, bleed essence. Some become allergic to things - well, most of them - like sunlight. Some are rewired so much that they no longer need oxygen. You see what I mean? I'm pretty sure that most of those are not, infact, written in my gene code. WEll, the allergies might be, but I don't have enough of a grasp on genetics to tell you wether allergies are an abnormality or someone flicking the wrong switch during pregnancy.

Posted by: Patrick the Gnome Oct 25 2009, 01:57 AM

I don't know if anyone's addressed this or not, but Running Wild has scaled back the infectivity of HMHVV III (the virus strain that makes ghouls) quite a bit with this paragraph on p. 61

"HMHVV III is the most virulent form of the virus and it can be spread with a bite, a scratch, even a mere touch if you're unlucky enough to have an open wound...The virus exists in the ghoul's saliva and other bodily fluids; given the typical sanitary conditions most ghouls live in, they're walking biohazards."

So the reason HMHVV III is contact vector is because of the general condition a ghoul tends to live in, namely, covered in his own filth. If a ghoul showered regularly, then his virus would become injection vector. Even if he doesn't, there's no way a ghoul spitting on doorknobs is going to infect anybody without an obvious hand wound. So yeah, zombie apocalypse averted.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 25 2009, 07:34 AM

Well as someone who works in outdoor condictions I can honestly say that "hand wounds" are really common, especially in cold and wet weather, and I imagine that with the acid rain common in cyberpunk setting only the shetlered rich wouldn't have "open wounds" or one kind of another...

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 25 2009, 09:38 AM

Furthermore, that's just fluff.
The rules state it's touch vector, no matter what.
If it really had to get into your blood to infect you, the rules would say injection vector.

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 25 2009, 10:28 AM

Thats why I hope that it's gonna be Errattaed. I Think AH also strongly votes for a Change.
Thumb-Up for a change to the better
(We allready changed it (Me& my 3 Rounds) to Injection Vektor ,Power 6 and AP-4 )

with Dance for a Change
Medicineman

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 25 2009, 03:10 PM

Yeah, you think that SARS or Swine Flu is bad, you would have a complete worldwide epidemic of Ghouls in transition in a very short order using Touch as a vector...

Here's for hoping it is erratted as Injection Vector

Keep the Faith