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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Astral travel

Posted by: 3278 Oct 14 2009, 02:56 AM

Still being very new to SR4, I'm not up on all the rules changes, so I wanted to double-check something that came up in a game tonight. In SR3, astral forms could pass through solid matter at will, so long as that solid matter didn't have an astral form. [And for this purpose, starting in SR2, the Earth had an astral form - as it should, given, annelid, insect, and bacterial populations in the soil - to prevent people tunneling in from beneath.] Astral forms included basically just living things, spirits, spells, wards [and other astral barriers like lodges], and enchanted objects [although I could be missing a few]. Even a dead body could be passed through at will, so long as its aura had fled the form. This in fact was the reason FAB-BAC and wards existed, and the reason vines were ever mentioned at all in a Shadowrun sourcebook. ["Sixth Flora: A Runner's Guide to Plants" never made it to the printer, oddly.]

Has all this changed in SR4? I didn't think so, but the guys who told me this are serious SR4 players - playtesters - so I kind of feel like I'm just being stupid and there's something I'm missing. Can you help a [dumb] brother out?

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 14 2009, 05:09 AM

As far as I know no, this has not changed. But maybe there was a little misunderstanding and he was saying that an astral form cannot see through solid mater ?

Posted by: Method Oct 14 2009, 05:21 AM

This was actually changed in SR3. There are rules for tunneling through the earth in Magic in the Shadows (page 80).

Basically in SR4 astral forms can pass through anything that is not itself astrally active, including the astral shadows of non-living things and the auras of living things. There are even rules (SR4A page 193) that describe how one might be able to feel an astral form passing through them.

Posted by: Bull Oct 14 2009, 06:36 AM

Not sure who told you that, 32, but they is wrong The passing through solid objects hasn't changed any.

Hell, for our Sunday games, that's my Mages favorite tactic for Astral recon. I summon up an Air Spirit to Conceal me, then I take an extra precaution by travelling mostly underground, with just my eyes and the top of my head poking out, and stay in shadows, using walls and trees for additional cover Between the Concealment and that, I'm damned hard to spot, even if a spirit or astrally perceiving mage happens to be around

Bull

Posted by: 3278 Oct 14 2009, 10:35 AM

As Dahrken suggested, maybe I misunderstood, or perhaps it's actually a house rule. I'll have to check with the GM and see what's up. At least I know I'm not imagining things, or at least that I'm not imagining this particular thing: for all I know, I could be imagining all of you. I like to imagine Bull.

Posted by: Silverback Oct 14 2009, 11:18 AM

But passing through solid earth is still slow, isn't? And I mean "slow" like "sneaking" speed.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 14 2009, 11:24 AM

Yes, it is slow, think swimming in molasses or tar...

And there is a risk of desorientation, meaning you could run out of astral projection time before returning to the surface.

Posted by: Silverback Oct 14 2009, 11:27 AM

Thanks for the quick reply.

Posted by: Chrome Tiger Oct 14 2009, 04:15 PM

Your ability to travel out of the safe-room was due to magical barrier, but I think you knew that one... I allow travel through non-living/non-magic solid matter, but not perceiving through. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding occurring. I must have failed my 'understand player' roll.

This does raise the concern that neither SR4/SR4A or Street Magic clearly state this. SR3 (173) indicates that it is possible to travel freely through non-living and non-magical solid objects, and actually NOT through earth as it exists on the astral plane. Anybody picking up SR with SR4 will likely not know what they can and cannot see/pass through.

Posted by: Paul Oct 14 2009, 05:23 PM

So then, as a side question inspired by this: Can the astrally projecting mage scout a room while in another room? What if there's not an open door into this room, or a opening that you couldn't fit through in real life?

I think I know the answers to this, but I want to make sure I'm not off base.

Posted by: Chrome Tiger Oct 14 2009, 05:31 PM

Someone astrally projecting merely needs to pass through the wall/windows/whatever provided it is not living or astrally warded/set with a barrier, and go into the next room. They merely risk detection. The wall will block perception THROUGH the wall, but not prevent you from walking into the room astrally to scout.

Posted by: Paul Oct 14 2009, 05:33 PM

Okay. I still haven't played a Mage or a character capable of astrally projecting in SR4.

Posted by: Dahrken Oct 14 2009, 05:41 PM

The mage can do it as long as several conditions are met :
1) he is astrally projecting and his astral projection moves through the wall - he can get a look even if his body is on the other side with no visibility to the observed area because his astral body (and with it his perceptions and awareness) are now on the other side of the visual obstruction.
2) there is no ward on the walls. If there are, he cannot move trhough it without either 1) breaking it or 2) mimicking the astral signature of someone allowed though (this requires a meta-magic technique). Also some wards may let him in, but not out - an astral trap.

There are also several Awakened plants that can be used to make a wall impermeable to astral forms, to detect the crossing of astral visitors, or even to fight them.

Posted by: 3278 Oct 14 2009, 07:13 PM

I got out the four main books today to verify this thread, and it looks pretty clear-cut:

QUOTE (SR1, p89)

Magical things (spirits, focuses, spells, some magical creatures, ritual teams, magicians using astral projection or perception, and so on) are living entities in astral space. They are visible, corporeal, and capable of action in Astral Space. Beings in Astral Space can see physical objects and assense magical energy given off by the astral forms of all living things. Assensing is the sixth sense that perceives magical energy and astral forms.

Nonmagical living things have dormant astral forms that are visible and corporeal in Astral Space but do not act on other astral forms. The Earth is a living thing in magical terms, and thus corporeal in Astral Space. Vegetation also blocks movement in the same way it does int he physical world. Water, air, and fire are also tangible in Astral Space, but astral beings can pass through them because of their low density. Water and fire do no harm to the astral traveler, but they do reduce his range of assensing.

QUOTE (SR2, p145)

Magical things (spirits, focuses, spells, some magical creatures, ritual teams, magicians using astral projection or perception, and so on) are living entities in astral space. They are visible, corporeal, and capable of action while there. Beings in Astral Space can see physical objects and assense magical energy given off by the astral forms of all living things. Assensing is the sixth sense that perceives magical energy and astral forms.

Nonmagical living things have a dormant astral form, an aura that is visible and corporeal in astral space but does not act on other astral forms. The Earth is a living thing in magical terms, and thus corporeal in astral space. Vegetation, for example, blocks movement just as it does in the physical world. Water, air, and fire are also tangible in astral space, but astral beings can pass through these elements because of their low density. Water and fire do no harm to the astral traveler, but do reduce his range of assensing.

SR1 and SR2 are basically identical, with the exception of some copy editing. Note that, contrary to what I said earlier, the Earth has been solid since SR1! [However, see below.]

QUOTE (SR3, p173)

Astral forms are unaffected by the physical world, allowing you to move through solid objects without slowing your movement. Only astral forms can slow or affect another astral form. The earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it.

As Method points out, Magic in the Shadows provides rules for moving through it anyway, ruling it would just be really, really slow. I wanted to check Street Magic - to make sure Bull's trick still works in SR4 - but I don't have a copy.

QUOTE (SR4, p183-184)

Astral forms are unaffected by the physical world; non-living objects that are solid in the physical world offer no resistance to astral forms and allow a projecting magician to pass freely. Only astral forms can slow or affect another astral form. The earth is solid on the astral plane, just as it is in the physical world; astral forms cannot pass through it.

So SR4 uses the same rules as SR3, again with some copy editing; the rule itself hasn't changed, which is a relief given my familiarity with astral travel in SR3. I can only relearn just so much!

Posted by: 3278 Oct 14 2009, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Oct 14 2009, 04:15 PM)

Your ability to travel out of the safe-room was due to magical barrier, but I think you knew that one...

Absolutely. Although technically, I shouldn't have been able to do that, either - the ward has its own cube shape, and isn't bound to the door's physicality - but I figured you were just being nice, and it doesn't pay to jerk the GM around when he's being nice!

QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Oct 14 2009, 04:15 PM)

I allow travel through non-living/non-magic solid matter, but not perceiving through. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding occurring. I must have failed my 'understand player' roll.

Yeah, I'm not sure what happened there. I remember it was part of the conversation about whether or not it was possible to scout the ship for the rifle, and there being places I physically couldn't enter because doors were closed, but with my memory...hey, I'm lucky I still remember playing last night! We'll know for next time, though, which is what counts.

Great game, last night. [As I remember!] Good flow, we players kept down on the table talk, elements from past jobs coming back to haunt us...it all came together, and I had a really good time.