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Posted by: Karoline Oct 15 2009, 03:26 AM

So, the title is fairly self explanatory I hope.

I'm curious what sort of ways there are for an individual character to protect themselves from a mage besides being one themselves or having one on overwatch for them. And no, I don't mean 'geek the mage' either. I mean actual protection.

I know that SR is a game of glass characters running around with hammers, but mages always seem to have the biggest hammer. Well, it isn't even that they have the biggest hammer, it is that there is nothing a character can really do (That I can think of) to protect themselves from magic without being born resistant or a mage.

To stop a bullet/blade you can learn to dodge to be less likely to be hit/be hit less hard. You can throw on a bunch of armor to reduce the P damage to stun, and help you soak up more of the damage.

So, my question is basically is there a magic equivalent to picking up the dodge skill (Besides counterspelling) or throwing on some armor? If not, what are some tips and tricks you've picked up to stop a mage blasting you into little bits. I believe there is some magic equivalent of the smoke grenade which blinds astral perception, but that is about the only one I can think of off hand.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 15 2009, 03:39 AM

Willpower of 5 (6 if a dwarf), Edge of 5 (6 if a human), SURGE with either magic resistance or arcane arrester (or be a gnome or fomorian and get it free), along with astral hazing. You'll laugh contemptuously at most spells.

Tactics-wise, smoke grenades, plain old stealth, ruthenium, and cover. Remember that wards are fairly common, and simply darting into a building might be giving you protection from spells and spirits (a good way to ditch things like watchers if you suspect you might be magically tailed).

Posted by: Orcus Blackweather Oct 15 2009, 04:48 AM

Mages can only hit what they can see. Anything that blocks line of sight, or make you less noticeable will keep them from targeting you. Obviously everyone will geek the mage when he has been identified, but if he can't see you he has to throw that first spell at someone else. As posted by glyph, the only dice you roll to resist spells are willpower for mana spells, or body for physical spells. Magic resistance is a quality you can take, 1 die of resist for 5 BP up to 4 points, and of course edge. You could also hire an npc mage to send a spirit along to help protect you. Have them summon a spirit with the counterspelling ability (not sure if that works just a thought). You can also at character creation take a burnt out mage. Give him 1 point of magic and counterspelling.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 15 2009, 05:02 AM

Mages need Visibility to cast spells. Even with Cybereyes you can still inflict penalties on them and their spellcasting.

Think about getting advanced safeties on your guns. Those Mental Manipulation spells are killer, but at least you and your friends won't shoot each other in the face at the Mage's whims.

Thermal Smoke, since the Mage is probably cybered. Nonconductive, Fire resistant armour is also a good idea if your GM's fond of combat spells. There's also the rather expensive route of FAB III... but that'll get your Awakened teammates extremely pissed.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 15 2009, 05:21 AM

And doesn't do much in the time span of a fight unless its really been changed.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 15 2009, 05:55 AM

Six hours still from my copy of Street Magic. And all you have to do is stop being Astrally Active for it to be a problem.

Also, the Esprit Blume grenade doesn't do much either. An 'astral mist'... Well it may help, it slightly obscures perception and assensing. It has a diameter of 10m... You can use it to slow down astral pursuit.

Posted by: Blade Oct 15 2009, 08:18 AM

There's also the magic resistance positive quality which, combined with a high willpower give a good dice pool to resist spells.

Posted by: Thanee Oct 15 2009, 08:42 AM

It's a design feature of SR, that only magic can truely defend against magic. Hence, Counterspelling (the Dodge equivalent against magic) being only available to mages.

But there are options to make it harder for a mage, especially stealth and line of sight disruption, as mentioned above already.

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 15 2009, 09:03 AM

A one-way-Mirror-Riot Shield (Being held a little further away so that the Aura doesn't shine through).
A Mage needs a Line of sight .And this shield is also good vs Indirect Area Spells

with a shielded Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 15 2009, 09:14 AM

Is this also good against laser weapons?

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 15 2009, 09:40 AM

It should give you quite a bonus to Dodge (and if angled right and polished) also a kind of Flash-Effect to blind the Enemy

with a polished Dance
Medicineman

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 10:36 AM

How about a Doberman with uprated Armour, Gecko Tips, a Thermal Smoke Projector and some built in flash-paks?

It's tough, can go where you go and can apply a minimum -4 visibility mod.

An Evo Orderly with a Rigger Cocoon?

Can't target what you can't see.

Take a full length Riot Shield, put gel-packs on the back and then suck out the gel and replace it with Rating 10 FAB-II.

That last one is kinda cheesy 'cos of the stupid Military Armour rules.

Technically if you're carrying it you get no benefit, of course you could fit it with feet and fire around it with a smart gun or over it with a GL....

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 15 2009, 11:01 AM

Well, you can take the 10 point disadvantage that haves you astral hazing, which is awesome.

Or just blow smoke and break LOS. Duelling with mages is much like fighting with tanks. You both have weapons that insta kill each other (sniper rifle with APDS vs Mage stuff), so you need to ensure that you have the positional advantage, or you blow smoke and retreat such that you do.

Posted by: Karoline Oct 15 2009, 11:09 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. Sounds like the only real defense after character creation is smoke grenades(and similar) and otherwise breaking LOS.

Posted by: W@geMage Oct 15 2009, 11:32 AM

And also makes you a complete outcast.
Destroying wards everywhere you go kinda pisses people off and is not really stealthy.
Imagine never being able to enter a bar, mall, airport, railway station etc ... in your entire life without setting magical alarms off.
Having to pay for all the ward breaches you cause, Lone Star would have your records on file pretty quick.

Posted by: DuctShuiTengu Oct 15 2009, 12:23 PM

Complete darkness + heavy thermal smoke renders everyone blind. Now, if you're not prepared for it, this is something of a wash (they can't see you to cast, you can't see them to shoot). However, ultrasound is still only at -3 and is pretty-much the only form of vision mod that's available in eyewear but not eyeware (pardon the pun). Radar or ultrasound systems that aren't vision based are also available in cyberware. Either way, the end result is that you can detect the mage to shoot them, but they need to actually see you to cast spells at you.

There's a few things here and there (arcane arrester, astral hazing, magic resistance, obnoxiously high willpower and edge) that can make it easier to resist spells, and a few items that were designed to screw mages (FAB springs to mind, as do magemasks or magecuffs) but in general, your best bet for not getting torn up when you find yourself facing offensive magic (and aren't being backed up by magic of your own) is to deny them LOS through one means or another.

Posted by: Blade Oct 15 2009, 01:01 PM

I don't know if the Nimu Salamander (salamanders that eat mana) have made it into Running Wild and how efficient they are, but maybe that's another option.

Posted by: toturi Oct 15 2009, 01:06 PM

It doesn't work unless you are not holding onto the shield (then you won't be getting the shield bonus) or you are claiming that your hand isn't part of your body and doesn't have an aura.

Posted by: Medicineman Oct 15 2009, 01:20 PM

You mean the Aura of your Arm "shining through"
Well if you have large Handles and some distance between your Arm and the Shield...
Well it needs some Fumbling and your GMs approval but it can be done

HokaHey
Medicineman

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 15 2009, 01:34 PM

Couple of points

A) Got a single quote demonstrate that astral hazing makes you an outcast OR that those places are warded?

B) Sustaining spells isn't illegal either - but would trigger the same effects. As sustaining spells isn't illegal, clearly these negative effects do not apply.

C) 24x7 magical security is not economical for public places. Manning a 24x7 armed checkpoint requires expenditure of ~1.5 to 2 million a year in todays dollars. Today, bars push back against retaining a single security guard because it is too expensive.

Please note that if you're positing the bar is warded, but the mage is not onsite, that is a completely dysfunctional ward. How is the proprietor of the bar going to be informed about the breach unless the mage is on site, or on call. If the mage is not on site, but on call, how is he going to tell the proprietor? On call services offered today have a response time in hours outside of business hours.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 15 2009, 02:17 PM

I prefer to think that aura shine only through WORN armor - about 0,2 - 0,5 cm, if we can use this kind of unit in astral space. Just to be visible, or it would also shine through thin walls, car's door or cheap furniture, and magic will become even more powerful.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 15 2009, 04:53 PM

Cthulhudreams your kidding right? For slightly less than $100 a month the company that I'm currently contracted to uses a 24/7 alarm system that has a real person who calls me within minutes of an alarm, holidays included.

And no, I'm not even talking about a security system, just an equipment failure alarm.


Also as cheap as wards are, I don't have a problem with most places having them, along with wireless blocking paint...

Posted by: Adarael Oct 15 2009, 04:59 PM

Don't forget the ol' Ruthenium Polymer Suit. Or I guess "Chameleon Suit" in 4th Edition. If you throw one on, the vision penalty to see you also applies to spellcasting, because it is explicitly a vision penalty. So suppose you're engaged in a firefight with Raoul the Aztechnology Mage. You're behind an overturned table, firing your pistol at him, in your chameleon suit. In order to see you, he's down... what is it, 4 dice? 6? We'll go with 4, because my memory is failing. But he knows you're there, cuz you're shooting. Let's suppose there's some minor smoke in the room, because his hellblast lit some of it on fire. Let's also suppose you've hit him with one shot already, doing 4 boxes of damage.

SR4 Example!
He casts stunbolt at you! Magic 8 (He's a bad-ass!) + 6 Sorcery + 2 "Combat Spells" Specialization = 16 dice! Well, the -2 from smoke and -4 from your suit reduces his die pool to 10, and his wound penalty reduces that to 9. He will reliably get 3 successes.

You roll your willpower 5 (You're a bad-ass, too!) plus Edge 5, because you realize you might get your ass handed to you. Look, it's statistically in your favor (because of exploding 6es!) and you don't get smoked by it. Rock. Then you shoot Raoul in the face again.

In SR4 Anniversary, cover bonuses are applied to the defender's roll as extra dice, rather than being penalties on the attacker. I don't know offhand if this applies to vision modifiers to a spellcaster, but either way it shouldn't change the statistics of the outcome much.

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 05:13 PM

No, no it is not.

It is a penalty to Perception.

Massive difference.

@Ravor

I hear a lot of folks going on and on about the prevalence of Wards and anti-wifi measures.

The former has no listed price but it isn't difficult to infer that it is very expensive from the labour cost of maintaining them.

If you start doing the numbers on anti-wifi for any sort of real world office building you'll find the numbers sky-rocketing in a big hurry.

Posted by: Adarael Oct 15 2009, 05:23 PM

Well, that is certainly an opinion. But logic dictates that if I have a -4 penalty to target something because I can barely see it because of glare, smoke, or underbrush, having a -4 because it is hard to see in another fashion is also highly likely.

Edit: Huh. Apparently in SR4A, cover bonuses also apply to Indirect Combat Spells. Or so the changes doc indicates. I had thought that was always the case.

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 05:34 PM

No, it's a fact.

Perception penalties apply to Perception tests. Visibility modifiers are a completely different thing.

While Visibility modifiers apply to Perception test this does not mean that all Perception penalties are Visibility Modifiers.

Chamo makes it more difficult to detect an intruder in SR but does not make him any harder to shoot once he has been detected.

Posted by: BlueMax Oct 15 2009, 05:34 PM

I made the same honest mistake. About two months ago when those in my group who had ordered though B&N had their shiny new SR4A, I opened one to check this and I was shocked Direct Combat spells take only a tiny portion of the possible modifiers.

Direct combat spells are amazingly potent.


BlueMax

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 15 2009, 05:44 PM

I believe it was ambiguous previously.

Perception isn't constant... that is it's a roll to determine if you spot something in the first place. Visibility is the difficulty of observing something. It does make sense that a hazy outline of someone in a Chameleon Suit would be harder to shoot, but it doesn't inflict any visibility penalties in terms of targeting.

So no -4 to spells or attacks. Though some sorta penalty in the difficulty in maintaining a "lock" on the target would be good, but that's up to the GM.

Wards are not that expensive. It's 100 per hour of the ritual, which is equal to the Force of the Ward. A basic Force 3 Ward would cost you 300 and it lasts several weeks equal to the hits of Magic + Will. Total cubic meters is equal to Magic x 50.

Not too shabby. A decent day job if you ask me.

Posted by: Adarael Oct 15 2009, 05:50 PM

Well, I'm gonna merrily go on applying perception penalties to ranged combat. Because camo DOES make it harder to effectively hit a target, even if you know he's there, because it breaks up his outline, and makes it harder to tell where center of mass is.

Either way, the point still stands. Wear a ruthenium polymer suit. DON'T shoot at Raoul. Does Raoul take an observe in detail action to notice you flanking him? No? Well, then shoot Raoul in the side of the head.

You may note that this is equally effective against all enemies.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that if you go strictly by the rules, there are also no 'visibility penalties' for shooting at someone through loose underbrush or a blizzard, because it is not strictly 'cover'. And that is horseshit, IMO.

Posted by: Thanee Oct 15 2009, 05:54 PM

Yep.

If you hold your gun into the exact same direction (against camouflaged and non-camouflaged target in exactly the same position) you will hit them exactly the same.

But... will you hold your gun into the exact same direction, based upon what you can see and your coordination (which is essentially, what your Firearms skill does)?

Bye
Thanee

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 05:59 PM

Not to be rude but, where the hell did you find that number?

Even at that low cost that's 300 every couple of weeks for an area the size of a very small store.

That's a shit load of cash for something that only prevents you being annoyed by Watcher Spirits and that regularly gets kicked over by Wiz-gang vandals.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 15 2009, 06:01 PM

The rule book. SR4A, p.194, the section about Wards.

It's a small amount of money if you value your astral privacy. And since it's a business and you can sign up for a contract with discounts and so on.

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 06:02 PM

I concur.

But as the rules stand, RAW, you haven't got a leg to stand on trying to tell the GM that you are 4 dice harder to hit because of your ruthenium sneak suit...

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 06:04 PM

Christ, I've only read that paragraph about fifteen times in the last hour...

Still, like I said, a very big wedge of cash for very little return.

edit

Compared to the cost of Insurance against other, far more likely, knocks to your balance sheet I don't think it adds up until you get to very high per square foot businesses.

Posted by: ScandRun Oct 15 2009, 06:10 PM

Hmm this defending against mages seem kinda tough without throwing in a mage on the opposition side all the time. I myself only GM atm but my PC mage seem to destroy most what I throw against them all the time. Elite soldier teams without mage support gets blasted with force 12 mana bolts and whatnot. I seem to have the best success throwing large number of foes against them even with magical support my runners where kinda stressed out fighting 25 drugged up bikers with pistols and chains.

I have considered giving my more high end teams astral support from mages. Summoning spririts with magical guard assisting them with magical guard or just popping up in the face of the mage in question.

Another idea I have considered is targeting the mage through focis, I remember playing an awakend character my GM was always on about focis lighting up like a Christmas tree on the astral plane .

Could I for example target a mage through active focis ? What would be the effect if I manaballed the mages active focis. This possibility of affecting targets in the regular world while the magical support would only be on the astral plan would be essentail for this strategy to be effective.

Just a few thoughts from a GM perspective on defending vs magic.

Would be really interesting to get some feedback on the astral support angle from you guys.

Regards,

Scandrun

Posted by: Kumo Oct 15 2009, 06:14 PM

Well, if mage can't spot an enemy, he will not attack him. When he can - chamo will not help. But his enemy can try to hide again.

BTW: total darkness, thermal smoke and chamo do not block an Astral Sight...

I'm not sure about wards - probably most places of any importance has them. But at public areas... rare at best.
Wi-fi inhabitants are relatively cheap, so they are common in any place. Not public areas, again - these are places where pepole should have access to Matrix.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 15 2009, 06:27 PM

Options vs mages:

• a large volume of individually weak opponents (12 ghouls poping in an alley popping out from behind dumpsters and trash piles, or a swarm of 100 devil rats mobbing you in the sewer). But you've got to be able to use cover, visibility modifiers, and closing to melee range to prevent the mage from taking everyone out with a single stunball, though.
• a few high-end opponents with spell defense. This has a significant chance of TPK, though.
• drones
• area attack weapons and gas.

Mages will potentially be buffed with armor or invisibility spells, making them hard to hit and hard to damage when you do hit, so grenades are always nice. Gas grenades don't need to be precisely targeted, and bypass the armor and barrier spells.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 15 2009, 06:33 PM

camo . . it's CAMO . . from Camouflage . . not Chamo from Chamaeleonflage . .

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 06:41 PM

Calm, calm.

Take a breath.

It's easy enough to get confused when talking about Camouflage and Chameleon Coating in the same breath.

And far from the worst English grammar/spelling I've seen/perpetrated on these boards...

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 15 2009, 06:54 PM

Huh. I thought we were talking about the Chameleon Suit too... hence the references to ruthenuim polymers.

I would generally deal with mages using stealth or area effect as well, unless I wanted to play things a little coy. Definitely wouldn't go head to head with one on their terms.

Posted by: BlueMax Oct 15 2009, 08:17 PM

I would dispute the listing of Drones. OR is easy to hit until a very large drone. Drones get no defense. Thus a mage with 15 dice to cast spells is way ahead of drones. Thus Drones have nothing on the mages. Its harder for the mundanes to destroy the drones unless you let them walk around with Gauss Rifles. (new scatter rules are *tough* ).

The large volume works though... something about angry masses with pitchforks killing wizards is a classic.

BlueMax

Posted by: ravensoracle Oct 15 2009, 08:26 PM

I think you deal with mages the same way you'd deal with anyone that can kick your butt. I mean a decked out Sam can be just as dangerous. I'd make sure the fighting was on my terms. Get cover or better yet Surprise the mage. He can't do anything if you get him first. I've found drones to be pretty effective. I just say you have to play it smart.

Posted by: Screaming Eagle Oct 15 2009, 08:41 PM

Mages do have the biggest hammers, but they tend to be made of rather brittle glass.

A fiercly dedicated mage - the kind that tosses the 14+ dice on relavent tests - will go down FAST once you hit them. The best defence is to see them first and go first. Toe to toe I have run into few mages that can out "fast draw" a Sami of comperable specialisation (similar points and $$$ dedicated to being bad arse).

Actual defence? I advise EVERY character to have a will and body of at least 3, preferably higher, one for mages the other for bullets. Spend and edge and you might just get lucky enough not to be deadified. Once you are not deadified GEEK THE MAGE. Even with a 2-4 die penalty from wounds a good Sami is rolling 10+ dice on their main weapon.

Worries about the invisable? Aren't we all? Ares new line of sonic, ultra sound and tremor sensors will pin point that pesky invisable intruder in a Nano and will place a representational ARO in your HUD for your convinience. Coupled with Ares Brand Smart Link ™ this will make anyone coming into your home uninvited regret having crossed you.
Ares, a name you can trust.

Posted by: BlueMax Oct 15 2009, 09:01 PM

Game
Set
Match
Screaming Eagle

Posted by: crizh Oct 15 2009, 09:11 PM

I never even got to the FAB-II laced walls, the FAB-II sprinklers and the FAB-II tipped Heimdalls...

Posted by: Jay Oct 15 2009, 09:35 PM

They might have specified drones (over drone) to go with the numbers game again. Can you arm drones with pitchforks?

Posted by: Screaming Eagle Oct 15 2009, 09:41 PM

Now I have a vision of 2 dozen hover drones with smily faces and pitchforks painted on in AR...

All of them with 5 kilos of explosives strapped to them.

Approching the target from all angles and co-ordinated so that no 2 are viable and within 10 metres of each other untill they are far too close...

Posted by: cndblank Oct 15 2009, 10:35 PM

Smoke is a physical barrier (if a thin one) so it would apply to Astral Sight just the way a curtain would apply to Astral sight.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 15 2009, 10:52 PM

I was under the impression that if casting a direct damage spell drones would resist with their OR, which is 5+, right? Of course, you could still fry them easily with indirect spells, especially lightning bolt. But at least it's forcing the mage to cast higher drain spells. And drones are cheap in SR4, even cheaper than security guards.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 15 2009, 11:28 PM

Direct damage spells must achieve enough hits to beat the OR, yeah. That means Force 5 minimum for Drones, needing 5+ to affect it. Net hits add the damage.

Indirect Combat Spells have to deal with Armour x 2, treating them like Barriers. Which gets very confusing. The Combat Spell section says Armour x 2 and treat them like Barriers with a reference to p166. But then Indirect Combat Spells are mentioned using only Armour in a damage resistance test.

That does just mean Armour x 2, but the recursive error's there.

Direct Damage spells would still be the best bet, however how many wagemages can cast at that Force? That is, if the GM didn't turn them into badasses.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 16 2009, 12:13 AM

And in order to have a decent chance of damaging the drone they've got to be throwing over 15 dice. After smoke, distractions, nausea from gas grenades, partial cover, etc it'll be hard for some to muster up 15 dice unless they're using edge. And you can afford more drones than the opposition can afford edge points.

Posted by: Traul Oct 16 2009, 12:39 AM

Fire from full cover.

A sammy can fire through a cover or around it with a grenade. A mage who does not have an Indirect combat spell is screwed.

Posted by: Deathmaster35 Oct 16 2009, 01:11 AM

Wouldnt that mean all air is a physical barrier? If you cant see through smoke in astral space, who says you can see through nitrogen?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 16 2009, 02:49 AM

You're Kidding... Right?

Posted by: Adarael Oct 16 2009, 02:54 AM

In a nutshell: if it blocks physical sight by putting shit in front of your eyes (smoke, blizzard, mist, etc) it obscures the astral. If it does so by technological or magical trickery (chameleon suit, magical spell) it does not. In the case of technology, this is because you're manipulating light, and in the case of spells, it's because they don't cross the barrier into the astral plane, and exist only on one plane at a time.

The conceal power is the only reliable way to be 'invisible' in the astral.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:33 AM

I disagree that the costs of a ward is that great, given the fact that long term contracts only tend to lower prices, and like most security, merely the fact that it is there is going to serve as a preventive measure, unfortunently it doesn't seem possible to create "fake wards" so we are left with the real deal only.

Posted by: cndblank Oct 16 2009, 04:15 AM

I'll also point out that the idea of the mirror shield would be very effective.

Even if there was bleed over from the aura of the arm, it would still just be the aura of the arm visible.

So thats at least +4 for cover.

Posted by: toturi Oct 16 2009, 04:26 AM

Does RAW state that shields provide cover?

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 05:45 AM

and pray the mage isn't astrally perceiving to target you, and has no spirits to warn him of what you're doing.
Also pray you can tell who he is, as a smart one often carries a gun, just to hide the fact he's a mage.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 16 2009, 05:53 AM

He could probably be wearing a Chameleon Suit too, or at least a Camo Suit. Geek the mage only works if you can tell who the mage is after all. And it works for both sides.

What to take from this? Smoke Grenades are great.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 05:55 AM

Assuming he doesn't have a silence spell up too, or some physical illusion spell which deadens all sound waves leaving the character, which would be no harder then invisibility. Or make a multi-sense invisibility spell.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 05:59 AM

Unless he casts invisibility on a spirit, and gives it a grenade to stuff down said sammy's pants. The spirit can just fade to the astral before the grenade explodes, the sammy on the other hand.... not so very lucky

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 06:10 AM

Its 50 square meters per magic point of the creators. Most wage mages will have a 4 magic. Also given the nature of the drain effects, any ward over force 4 likely did its creator physical damage, meaning they would have charged far more then the 100/hour to make it. Also that is only 200 cubic meters. Given the 9 foot ceilings are not uncommon in most offices and stores, this means 70 square meters of floor space per applicaiton, or only about 630 square feet per ward. The average office building has how many square feet? It would be only cost effective to use them at choke points. Also now given the fact people with various qualities can now collapse wards by walking through them, said choke points are going to force these very people through the wards and collapse them on a fairly regular. exactly how common do you really think they are going to be? They virtually can NOT exist anywhere with reasonable public access.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 06:17 AM

I see them as being fairly common, albeit at low Force, but then again I also agree that people who collaspe wards by their very nature are going to be discrimated against, I don't see the Sixth World as being a happy or fuzzy place, espically for those who require "special" accomendations in order to merely exist.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 16 2009, 06:28 AM

Fairly common.

You can do it solo, or you can group up. Anyone with Magic 1 or up can join in. That includes people with the Astral Sight 5 BP quality. Fine the 100¥ per hour is negotiable, but that's for each person in the group, and the figure is official. They did say "around" 100¥.

The fact is, you don't need a high Force Ward everywhere. You just want security and peace of mind that some wandering astral observer isn't peeking in.

Also, you're not limited to one Ward per person or group of people. You guarantee on a contract that you'll protect an area for X amount of nuyen, then you show up whenever you need to, to keep it operational.

How common will those people who can walk through and collapse wards be exactly? And Wards aren't really there to provide protection, they're there as a trip alarm. Whoever set them up will know if they go down, and it's a commlink call away (possibly even automated) to trigger an alarm.

You're not going to ward the entire office building unless you're doing secret research on every level. But certainly boardrooms, exec suites, the high-up washrooms, etc.

No, the diner down the street won't have a Force 4 Ward protecting it. But that new club might.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 06:34 AM

I can only really disagree with the point about the commcalls being automated, whoever set the ward up is going to have to make the call manually.

Posted by: toturi Oct 16 2009, 06:49 AM

What is the exact wording in the book? I am not too sure if a ward collapsing due to background count will alert the person who set them up.

Posted by: Adarael Oct 16 2009, 07:05 AM

Having played a mage for about 9 years, yes, this is what you do.

But the OP was asking HOW you handle a mage and defend against him. This assumes you A) know where the fuck he is, because if you don't, you might as well ask "How do I stop getting killed?" (the answer is, of course, figure out who keeps killing you) and B) the mage isn't OMG WTF BBQ prepped to the 9s, because if your OPFOR is prepped, you're probably dead anyway.

But. In answer to your concerns sequentially:

1) If he's percieving, yes, you are boned. But you can still choose to use stealth when manouvering, in the hopes you are better at sneaking than he is at seeing.
2) Even if the spirits can warn him, if you go before they do, it's not a problem. The mage does not mystically know what they know - they have to take an action to tell him. Otherwise there would be no such thing as "surprising a mage".
3) Telling who he is, if he is Raoul the Bad-Ass, is trivial. He is casting high force spells - high enough that the threshold to notice him spellcasting is 0, or 1 if you favor the opinion that you must always roll. Easy to do.
4) I would f'ing hope Raoul carries a gun. Hell, my mage carried 2 heavy pistols, 2 machine pistols, an ares alpha, and a long rifle 'just in case'. You best come armed if you're ambushing dudes.

Posted by: Blade Oct 16 2009, 08:27 AM

I've checked Running Wild and Nimue Salamanders might be a bit too rare to be used commonly by a Shadowrunner, but there are a lot of paranormal critters with the counterspelling skill. So I guess you could find one that you could bring along with you on a run.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 16 2009, 10:39 AM

And that guy was the guy who installed the security system, or is that guy a very low skilled person? Plus, that guy has leverage, he can monitor ANY number of alarm systems - the span of control is very large.

Contrast this to a manned checkpoint (a much closer parallel to mage manned wards) - you need more skills for the guy on the ground, and you need support for him. This radically drives up costs.

Finally, the guy in the call centre actually calls someone else to respond, he doesn't do it personally - but the mage has to do it personally, because he has to be onsite to respond. Consider how many people walk through the doors of a mega mall every 5 minutes. If the mage is asleep (and everyone has to sleep) when the breech occurs, it's going to be seriously atleast 5 minutes for him to find his pants and DNI, then he has to look up who to ring for that breech. So you get a call from the mage saying 'about 5 minutes ago, some guy broke your wards on the east side entrance!'

What does that even tell you?



Seriously, alarm systems are an extremely bad comparison. Mages have extremely valuable skills, and do not have the same span of control as an alarm system operator.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 16 2009, 10:57 AM

So why the hell someone developed the “Petite Brume” Grenade? It has just a "light mist" effect in astral. For 1000 .
And the AIR is also a kind of phisical barrier, I think...

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 16 2009, 12:10 PM

Basically the "bring a drone" strategy is all about keeping the wiz from hitting you with a manaball since those only affect living creatures. That's the only combat spell which ignores armor and is resisted only by willpower. Also, the whole control thoughts/actions shtick.

But, yeah, when your group troll can resist damage with his body of 13 and half his 20+ impact armor, (plus the 6 appropriate elemental resistance,) then that mage just cashed his check by sticking his neck out. Not a good play for him, so I don't see him rushing to make it.

And, invisibility? Please. You can fit UltraWideBand Radar into a Fly-Spy. By the time you turn that corner, you should know there's a guy with nothing artificial inside him except a half-digested burrito hiding 100m that-a-way. Then it's just a matter of how nasty you want him to die. Ol magey won't be seeing much after you stick your MGL-6 arond the corner and airburst a Gas Grenade full of Ekyelebenle Venom right in his puss. How's your line of sight now, chummer?

So, yeah. How you beat a mage is same as how you beat anyone else. Know more, act faster, hit harder.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 16 2009, 12:59 PM

That's not what I meant. What I meant was that it'd be one mental click away for the mage in his AR, a simple button that said to this company "Ward down". Not that it'd be done automatically with no input. Just that he wouldn't have to dial, wait for a link, etc. A preset link basically.

A Ward collapsing due to any reason should alert the fella(s) that made said ward.

Posted by: Straight Razor Oct 16 2009, 01:38 PM

not unless it is a mirror made for laser optics. Most domestic mirrors are made of glass and silver. Silver will reflect UV very well, but IR not at all. As for the glass it just can not handle the thermal load. Though you could make a "cheep" laser shield by taking a thick (3-5mm) copper sheet. shape it however you like and attach a good water cooling device to the back, as well as you handles and what ever you like. Then get the front electro formed formed with 24k gold .01-.02mm thick. For a large shield that is about half an ounce of gold. Do not forget to keep it highly polished.

I would call this a "laser hardened" armor. Though it is just a shield so it dose not give you the total protection of a hardened suit. That said any laser hitting the shield would just reflect off in some random froward arc. up to power 16 perhaps 18, then it would just reduce damage.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 16 2009, 02:00 PM

Assuming you can see him at all with Radar. It uses photons just like any other from of vision, and so should be screwed by improved invis.

Posted by: Jay Oct 16 2009, 02:21 PM

This one stuck with me for a while (mostly because I also noticed the increased usage of 'Chamo').

I think Chamaeleon-o-flage should be a brand name for ruthenium polymer suits!

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 16 2009, 02:29 PM

Feel free to use it in your games ^^

Posted by: toturi Oct 16 2009, 02:49 PM

I have not found any rule that states that a ward collapsing would alert its creator however. The only relevant line I have found is:
A ward collapsing due to Background Count is neither an attack on a mana barrier nor is it an attempt to break through per se.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 16 2009, 03:12 PM

RAW states that radar works against invisibility. Don't have books at work, but I'm sure someone out there can provide page number reference. Also, if the mage uses silence spell to counter ultrasound he's going to leave a 'blank spot' in viewer's display that will tag his location. Wouldn't be enough for precise targeting, but would give enough info for a carefully placed grenade.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 03:49 PM

I disagree Cthulhudreams, all the mage has to do is call the owner, and with a simple 'jack that is easy to do within a few seconds/minutes as Marwynn has pointed out. Of course the Mage is going to charge extra if he has to respond in person, but most of the time he won't have to.

Posted by: Pendaric Oct 16 2009, 04:35 PM

Ahem with a small break from decorum...Check the sig! Check the sig!
Do not ckeck you comlink normal service has now resumed.

Posted by: darthmord Oct 16 2009, 07:02 PM

There's always indirect combat spells. Higher drain but you don't need to see anyone for those to work.

I can't see you but know you are there (by virtue of that massive cloud of LOS breaking thermal smoke), I'm tossing my baddest AOE indirect spell where that cloud is (this assumes I'm outside of it).

Besides, if I'm willing to cast it, I can probably survive it with little to no damage.

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 16 2009, 08:42 PM

I'd like to add my opinion to this. Radar and Ultrasound works by reading the reflections. The only time a silence spell would leave a 'blank spot' is if there was something behind the player that should have been reflecting the signal back. If there's nothing behind the player, then no reflection would be expected, so the blank spot wouldn't be noticed amidst the larger blank spot.

How does spirit Concealment nest with Silence and Improved Invisibility? Do you apply Concealment first, then the spells, or spells first and powers after?

Posted by: Adarael Oct 16 2009, 09:12 PM

I would apply only the better bonus for any given situation.

For instance, for visual perception, if a guy has -4 to perception checks for invisbility, and a -6 due to Conceal, the conceal takes precedence. If the test is auditory, the invisbility does nothing, but Conceal (being anti-everything) still takes effect.

I don't remember if this is by RAW, but it's the only sane way to do things, IMO.

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 16 2009, 09:32 PM

Well, with visibility mods, for the one looking allways only the one that is best for the looking person applies . .

Posted by: Adarael Oct 16 2009, 10:15 PM

I'm sorrry, Stahl, I don't know what you mean by that. Do you mean you always count the WEAKER vision penalties when someone is trying to spot a sneaker? Cuz I know that's not true. If I have invisbility and improved invisbility, the first at Force 2, 2 successes, and the second at Force 10, 10 successes, you certainly don't use the Force 2's modifiers.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 16 2009, 10:49 PM

I think Stahlseele is talking about Vision Modes such as using Low Light, Thermo, Ultrasound, ect...

Posted by: Stahlseele Oct 16 2009, 11:01 PM

Yeah, that was it. sorry, wasn't clear enough there <.<

Posted by: Adarael Oct 17 2009, 12:04 AM

Ahh, okay! Makes much more sense now.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2009, 02:40 AM

The placing mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down... for the exotic wards, there are other criteria for alerting the caster...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2009, 02:43 AM

Mages do not have to be on site to respond... send a few spirits to check it out, call in the Response teams, etc... he can do that from the safety of his own living room if he so chooses...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2009, 02:46 AM

Rasdar is immune to the effects of Improved Invisibility, Chameleon Coating or Camoflauge... there is still a reflection... says so in the equipment's description...

Posted by: toturi Oct 17 2009, 02:51 AM

Even for a normal ward, where does it say that the mage is alerted whenever the ward goes down? If there is such a rule, please give me a quote from the book/s.

I have not found anything that says the mage is alerted when the ward goes down. Other types of wards have other criteria but normal wards do not auto-alert the mage when it goes down. The ward only alerts the mage when it is attacked and when something attempts to break through by virtue it is a mana barrier.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2009, 03:06 AM

I would ask you how the Ward would go down prematurely if it was not "attacked" or something attempted to "break through"... Please provide an example of such an occurrence...

Wards created in a Background Count are ususally attuned to that Background count and would not need to worry about such things... and artificial Background Count (like a Spell creating a BCG, or Astral Hazing, etc) would be an intentional act (placing in in conjunction with the warded area) which I would classify as an "attack" agains the integrity of the ward itself...

But you are right... I cannot find any explicit information that you are asking about...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 17 2009, 03:16 AM

I know it's not explicitly stated, though it is stated that Wards do alert their creator when they're attacked (p.125 Street Magic). But really, if the creator can feel it being under attack or being breached it can't feel it when it goes down?

It's probably one of those things the writers overlooked, they assume that anything that brings down a ward would be an attack.

Posted by: toturi Oct 17 2009, 03:20 AM

That is not an attack on the ward, the collapse of the ward is simply a consequence of Background Count. A bad storm moves in, the Background Count increases, ward collapses. A huge 3 day rave gets on, the wards around the party collapse. I assume that there is an explicit rule that states that wards created in a Background Count are usually attuned to that Background Count? If I recall correctly, Background Counts do not have aspects and hence cannot be attuned to.

As well, attacking and attempting to break through a mana barrier is detailed on p194 SR4A. Using a Background Count is not per those rules.


If the ward goes down due to it being attacked, yes, then the creator will be alerted. But not if the ward simple collapses due to other reasons.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 17 2009, 03:25 AM

I think that we are arguing semantics, but I do understand where you are coming from (since you generally use only what is explicitly stated)... And I had already perused the books that you reference, and there are also some relevant sectrions in Street Magic...

By the Way... I fail to see how a Rave is going to impact a corporate research facilities Wards, but that is really beside the point that was being made... In my opinion (and it is not RAW, as stated previously) Wards are such that any interuption of the integrity of the ward constitutes an "attack"... note that the definition of attack in the book is extremely vague, it just says "attack or attempt to breach"... admittedly, it is semantics on my part as well...

Keep the Faith Toturi...

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 17 2009, 07:22 AM

Then I'd research a multi-sense improved invisibility spell that works on Radar too. Its using the same types of particles to detect you using the same principles as regular vision, just at a different frequency, so it really should be covered, but if its not, make a version which will work.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 17 2009, 07:26 AM

Anything that generates background count in the area of the ward. Running new born children through a blender near the ward for example would generate a back ground count, but this isn't an 'attack' against the ward. Also the book is kinda specific about attacking wards last I checked, and no, not all wards at aspected to the background count of the area, and I don't even think that is possible to do. You can aspect the background count to the ward, if you're a geomancer, but I've not seen rules saying the reverse is true.

Posted by: Deathmaster35 Oct 17 2009, 12:48 PM

The invis spells are working in the visiable and near visable spectrums though, radar is fairly far off of that range. Even though they are part of the same EM spectrum they are in far off sections of it and different ranges of the EM spectrum exhibit far different properties so are not even very similar.

Keep in mind that the ultrawideband rader at best is rating 4, giving it only 4 dice to try to "see" something, so it really doesnt get much info most of the time.

Posted by: Deathmaster35 Oct 17 2009, 01:15 PM

No i'm not. Although vague the astral world info is implying that only physically solid objects are mirriored in astral space, as even a window or mirrior obstructs line of sight and thus gives penalties. (btw, the earlier mention of the one way mirrior shield would only not help against astral perception as per the rules it would just "impair" visibility.)

Astral sight doesnt work off the visible light spectrum, thus there is no reason to believe that something that only blocks visible light (like smoke) is going to block astral sight.

Posted by: Deathmaster35 Oct 17 2009, 01:39 PM

Mages dont "have to sleep" there is a spell for that

but yeah, any mage that would run a Ward business isnt going to be a fast responder to something happening to the ward. First off he might be doing something like you have pointed out, thus causing a delay in him getting to the building owner. The other part being that if he has like 100+ wards up, when something happens to one of them he then needs to figure out which one it was (as in, what building it is in) and then contact that owner, so yeah 5 mins seems reasonable for a response time and thus useless.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 17 2009, 01:50 PM

Well, it is still seriously useful if you're guarding something seriously secure. But for the bar, mall, or public buildings it is just overhead that goes nowhere fast.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 17 2009, 02:17 PM

Well there's still those nifty special Wards. Like the Alarm or Trap Wards in Street Magic.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 17 2009, 02:34 PM

Unless that bar happens to be a Mob bar. Pretty much any place of interest should have wards and magical off-site security - Not the Stuffershack, but the jewelery store, for sure. If Johnson wants to meet in a secure back room, you bet it's going to be warded. If your Hazed out SURGE friend wants in, he's going to wreck the ward and possibly queer the meetup.



If Improved Invis did warp all photons, it would make it a quick and dirty means of avoiding radiation poisoning, which is a cool enough concept to warrant a GM ruling.



Actually, the rating for UWB radar is just for its penetration. The UWB system comes as a stock rating 2 sensor, upgradable as any other radar sensor to rating 6. But you can also couple it with clearsight autosofts (up to 4) in a drone, or use your own visual perception if you're feeding it through to the image link on your comlink for AR overlay (which is default if the radar is installed in a limb.) That gives the drone a potential 10 dice to toss with 0 modifiers besides cover. Baseline being 5 dice, since who wouldn't spend 600 nuyen on a lvl 3 clearsight prog.
Also, with a type of radar that sees through objects to create 3d maps, I'd argue there's no bonus for cover unless your target is hiding in a pile of corpses. I mean, it's really hard to hide anything as distinctive as a skeleton from something that's designed to look fairly exclusively for skeletons. So, yeah. One success is game up. Can't trick something that sees you as plain as day on an open field... where it can additionally see through a meter of dirt beneath your feet as well. That means the hypothetical stock UWB drone can buy the win running passive, then switch to active (read: ping extended style until it knows how many fillings the target has,) all with no LOS.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 17 2009, 02:50 PM

But both act in response to astral forms - background count would not trigger their defensive capabilities.

Personally, I am of the opinion that wards would not be likely to be used in areas of public access or egress. They would be used in secure areas, or exclusive establishments. The main disadvantage of astral hazing would not be to make the character unable to function in society. It would be in the area of infiltrating secure areas. While it is not stated explicitly, I would say that if a mage can sense when someone attacks or attempts to break through a barrier, he can tell when it goes down (I am not so sure he would be able to tell if its Force went temporarily down due to the background count, though).

Posted by: pbangarth Oct 17 2009, 06:05 PM

Smoke is particulate matter, water vapour and other gases hanging in the air. Matter blocks astral sight. Why would smoke not block astral sight the same way it blocks regular sight?

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 17 2009, 07:01 PM

A good question would be, what is the 'stuff' your actually seeing on the astral plane? It looks like the matter of the regular world, but isn't solid, so it not. Is it someones 'opinion' of that matter which left an imprint on astral space? Given that you can read the emotional content of that matter, I'm inclined to say this might be the case. So unless that smoke as been around long enough for someone's opinion to etch its way onto astral space, I'm thinking you might have a hard time seeing it.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 17 2009, 09:17 PM

As I posted before:


I think that smoke cast only a thin astral shadow at best - too thin to cover aura of something alive.

Posted by: Preacher Oct 17 2009, 10:06 PM

first: smoke as astral barrier.

It's important to realize that smoke is not a gas. Smoke is made up of itty-bitty bits of solid matter being carried by gasses and thermal drafts. So yes, smoke would cast an astral shadow. I would argue that the smoke grenade would apply the same penalties in astral sight that it applies to physical sight, since they both block sight by putting solid (and nonluminscent) matter in the way.

Second: Why Petite Brume? Petite Brume is dual-natured, no? so it slows spirits, no? runaway now, yes?

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 17 2009, 10:35 PM

Excellent, now could you propose a mechanism by which this nonliving matter which is not occupying its space for any significant length of time is going to impact astral space there is no emotional tie to any of it? It seems to do something to astral space you need to have feelings, ideas, concepts. No one is going to wash and wax the smoke in their smoke grenades like one would a car, or a window, or any other device or object they touch, so how is it influencing the astral space?

Posted by: Kumo Oct 17 2009, 11:14 PM

From Arsenal (enphasis mine):

Smoke grenade releases a cloud of smoke over an area with a diameter of 20 meters - heavy or thermal smoke, what means penalty -4 for normal sight (for light mist, it's only -2) for a cost of 30-35 . And yes, it slows spirits... you can runaway if you run faster than 100 meters per Combat turn...
So what does "breakthrough" mean - developing something less effective, for a price nearly 30 times higher? If we assume that normal smoke works for Astral Perception, “Petite Brume” is a pure nonsense...

EDIT:
I assume that regular smoke grenades release a heavy (not light) smoke, because they are only 5 cheaper than thermal smoke grenades.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 18 2009, 12:26 AM

Which the Johnson isn't going to know unless he is the mage that created that stuff - because the wards don't trigger alerts. Same for an offsite mage warding the corp sec compound. Unless he is on site to astrally see his wards going down, he isn't going to know.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 18 2009, 12:59 AM

Well, you can assume that the runners have a strong emotional investment in that smoke keeping them from getting fried. Sure it won't be shining like a wage slave's " Hang in there" kitten poster, but, maybe if the runners clap their hands and say "I do believe in faeries," it could impose a minor vision modifier. Another scenario that certainly would generate emotional response is if the smoke was deployed in a crowded area. That kind of panic could even generate instant background count to a small degree.

Posted by: Preacher Oct 18 2009, 02:19 AM

Street magic page 112 under "shadows" and SR4 page 181 under "auras and astral forms" suggest to me that objects in the physical world show up in astral as "shadows." Street magic specifies that you can go through them, but that they block astral sight. Sure, they wont have an aura, so the smoke would be drab and colourless (oh, wait, it already is), but would still cast that shadow.

Now that I think about it, straight smoke grenades would be less effective on the astral, because the people on the other side are all glowy with astral signature. I think it would still make targeting more difficult, having more shadow clutter in the area per Street magic page 114 Astral Visibility table, but the astral signature would shine through. The Petite Brume, however, could help to mask an astral signature, effectively relying on, simultaneously, aura noise and concealment. I could see making spell targeting through the astral more difficult based on both of those factors.

That being said, RAW suggest that the petite brume would apply it's concealment effects per the description in arsenal, and act the same way that FAB-II does in street magic. You could potentially slow somebody down. Does that make it useful? Not really, but FAB-II isn't cheap.

EDIT: umm... stupid part of post deleted. Before anybody read it I hope.

Edit 2: Kumo, you're right. You would have to run at 100 m/turn. I recommend a fast bike or car.

Posted by: ravensoracle Oct 18 2009, 02:39 AM

Oetit Brume Grenades say that they limit astral movement to 100 m/turn. But it only covers an area of 10 meters. You know what that says too me.

Spirit hits the cloud traveling at 100m/turn passes thru a space 10m.

Spirit thinks "Oh, speed bump" and continues on.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2009, 03:40 AM

I would re-read the relevant rules again if I were you... per RAW even Light Smoke provides penalties to Astral Sight... contrary to what you are thinking, and what you continue to argue and post... Just because you can move through it does not mean that it does not impede sight...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Kumo Oct 18 2009, 04:14 AM

Where are these rules?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2009, 04:29 AM

Street Magic...
Page 112 Astral Topography; Shadows...
Page 114 Astral Visibility - Particularly the sentence that reads - "Note that while these modifiers (Astral Visibility Table Modifiers) replace some physical world perception modifiers (such as the light level), other physical world modifiers still apply."

Also the end of the next Paragraph... "Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane, and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura"...

There are other relevant sections, but these are the immediate ones that show that Physical Shadows, even with little to no emotional content, still obscure astral sight...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 18 2009, 04:58 AM

Yes of solid objects. I'm not thinking smoke qualifies. If you can get a dev to say it does, I might believe you, but I fail to see how something as temporary as smoke can impact the astral like that.

Posted by: Kumo Oct 18 2009, 05:31 AM

Not a word about smoke directly.
A whole sentence from SM p. 114 is:

Damn imprecise. Which physical world perception modifiers apply, and which are replaced? Looks like another hidden glitch made by devs . IMHO wound modifiers, effects of toxins etc remain unchanged - things affecting the mage directly.

Once again - the air is also material... it should be treaded as one big shadow...
Hell, even light is "probably" a matter of some kind...
And:

Aura doesn't exceed clothes - it shines through them... But clothes or armor are even more material than smoke...

Posted by: kzt Oct 18 2009, 08:36 AM

No, they would be used to screen out critters and people with active spells. Most anyone can walk through the ward at a nightclub. If someone bounces off it this would tend to suggests something to the bouncer who is watching people walk though the door.

Plus spirits can create wards. A spirit long-term bound can do some interesting things.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 18 2009, 08:41 AM

It is pretty expensive to keep rebinding spirits - most venues don't even like hiring security guards and have to be forced to do so by the government as part of their licensing conditions. Why would you assume that bars are going to do so when the influence of the government has collapsed?

Posted by: kzt Oct 18 2009, 09:34 AM

One spirit can cover a lot of places. It's not like he has to sleep.

Posted by: Mordinvan Oct 18 2009, 10:05 AM

and each place is likely to be a service
long term binding can only have 1 service
short term bindings would charge 1 service per place per 12 hours
I don't see that being 'cheep'

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Oct 18 2009, 10:21 AM

It certainly depends on the definition of service yes.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Oct 18 2009, 11:26 AM

A plain, dark room, three Lucifer Lamps candle-style with cameras attached for 720° coverage, and a TacSoft.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 18 2009, 02:55 PM

The Modifiers replaced are specifically listed in Street Magic, all others would apply from the physical world...

You are of course free to run things as you see fit, but I will be using astral shadows and the visibility mods suggested in my games... if it obscures sight in the real world, then an astral shadow is created in astral space for the same effects... remember, smoke does not last all that long anyways, so the astral shadow of said smoke will last exactly as long...

Have a great day...

Keep the Faith