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Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 12:05 AM

The SR mage, especially one equiped with invisibility and a stable of spirits, is incredibly powerful and easily game shattering. I'm running a three player game (1 GM, 2 players) and we've only been running easy mundane missions until the last game. We swapped out the characters for one sammy and one wizard.

That said, the mage did some "holy crap" things with his magic. Casting invisibility (5 hits) on the sammy and letting him go to town. Unexpected and terribly effective versus a bunch of toughs that didn't have a good way to deal with the situation. I don't think that they got to fire one round.

Spirits are haxorz. You can chain cast spirits to their doom. Summon a force 4 fire elemental from hiding and saying "Go manifest in the helicopter's cockpit and kill everyone in it" seems to be way too effective. It seems that all tanks in the future have to carry at least one mage for issues like this and even then it'll probably be too late when with a fire elemental pops into material form on his lap.

Spirit concealment. Wow. -5 dice to perception is crazy when you consider that some enemies don't even have the perception skill and those that do receive DPs of 5 or 6. It helped made the extraction a cake walk.

I've started many a Shadowrun games in the past and ended many due to burnout. Now I'm starting to remember why I burn out so fast. D&D time again? (j/k... I think)

Edit:
I understand that I can have guys carrying certain pieces of gear to counter these guys specifically but I want to see normal ways of countering them. I don't want to force changes where they wouldn't have existed otherwise. For instance, I know that I can have every guy using Ultrasound goggles (I think that's their name) but does EVERYONE have those? If so, why are none of the example runners or NPCs using these countermeasures?

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Oct 20 2009, 12:08 AM

In 3rd edition Control Thoughts was also pretty ridiculous.

The solution is that opposition always needs competently-played magical support who can counterspell, banish spirits, also has umpteen spirits at the ready, and so on.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 12:16 AM

Right, but mages are so freaking powerful how do you not instantly destroy the PCs? A few spirits can make crazy quick work of whatever they are set upon.

Posted by: Traul Oct 20 2009, 12:36 AM

Everyone should. It does not only help against invisible mages, but also against mundane ninjas wearing chameleon suit.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 12:45 AM

But everyone doesn't. I don't think the sample runners or the NPCs have them listed. Honestly, there is so much crap that people need to counter runners and security I'm surprised there isn't a master gear list some where. Guess it's time I go hunt one down.

This game is becoming a full time job.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 12:48 AM

Always has been in my opinion...

Anyway, to truly compensate for a mage, the opposition must have magical support... there are some things that you can do to limit the Mage's power, but to truly compete, opposition MUST have support of their own...

Keep the Faith...

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 01:03 AM

I'm trying but I'm getting close to meltdown.

It seems like it's very easy for mages to begin battles first with spirits. So far in my games someone is getting the drop on someone else and it's usually the PCs (through ambushes and good planning). When the PC mage goes Astral he can just dump spirits anywhere, right? So if he thinks the opposition is up around the corner or in a vehicle he can go there astrally to confirm and start summoning or pulling spirits from standby, correct?

Spirits are just crazy powerful and I'm finding that what I have to do to counter them unreasonable and out of sync with what should be. If spirits weren't so bloody unstoppable (Force 5 and above) I wouldn't be worrying as much but god, they are so game breaking. They are terribly damaging and their powers really cause me some headaches. I guess drones are the same way; glad we're staying away from hacking for now.

Posted by: MikeKozar Oct 20 2009, 01:22 AM

I've been having similar issues. There are some anti-mage tricks you can put into play at lower levels.

Gangers should have a good distribution of stat points. If the boss and his leutenant both have high will and charisma, they stand a chance of resisting spells and popping spirits. Electric damage doesn't count as 'normal' damage, and so tasers and stick'n'shock rounds are both recommended - remember that tasers are actually legal. I'd go with a nice heavy stun baton, or shock gloves, though - they seem tougher and more in line with the ganger image. As far as Invisibility, remember that they can still be heard, and the gangers can always guess with surpression fire (have them roll something to determine how close they get so the players don't think you're cheating) or grenades.

Low-security outfits can easily afford motion sensors - those automatic doors at the stuffer shack will open for mages under Improved Invisibility because they're Ultrasonic. They might even have a security company on speed dial, some kind of rent-a-mage, who will go astral at the first sign of shenanigans and zip in with a spirit or two. They might also have wards up, or just equip all their guards with biomonitors Arkham Asylum style so as soon as one guy goes down they sound the alarm. It's also reasonable to expect all the guards to have a 'less then lethal' electric backup weapon for legal reasons.

Corps might have a mage on site; they might have a bound spirit covering the place, or dual-natured paracritters on patrol. Regular guard dogs have good hearing and smell, so they might tip off the guards about invisible infiltrators. Don't forget about pressure sensors - they're cheap and hard to get around. If you trigger an alarm at a major facility, expect a security rigger to be on you as well - raildrones, gas dispensors, doors sealing you in and heavy response teams on speed dial are all at his virtual fingertips if the team blows just one infiltration roll.

Just a few ideas, hope they help.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 01:28 AM

Here is a tip from our game... Not everyone agrees with this, but I think it works wonders to control the ubiquitous use of spirits...

When your mage summons spirits of Force 4 or greater, have them spend edge to resist the summonings (we use rating 4 as the start for this as smaller spirits, though useful, are generally considered to be less useful, as they are less powerful)... this will cause them to roll 2xForce for the SUmmoning resistance test, which can be very painful, and has the added benefit of using up one of the spirit's edge points in the process... If they are going to Bind the spirit, spend another Edge to resist that as well (3xForce... Ouch)...

Now, why would you do this you ask? Because spirits are not just some amorphous energy just waiting in the deep metaplanes for you to summon them, they are intelligent creatures that have their own agendas and priorities. Now, good roleplaying and proper attitude towars your spirits can mitigate this edge expenditure, but it takes constant effort to keep your spirits appeased and happy. And it provides wonderful opportunities for roleplaying the interactions of you, your spirits and the Tradition that you espouse for your magic... it adds some depth and breadth to the character as well... and also shows that Spirits are not just a commodity to be used and abused (as most mages tend to treat them in game, at least in my experience)...

I hope that this might help...

keep the Faith

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 01:30 AM

Security companies should have a Rent-A-Mage with a few Bound Spirits. If they're chasing you in a chopper already why don't they have magical assets on their own? The corps would be the first to snag Talent.

Invisibility 5 means they couldn't see the Street Sam with any reliability. But they can still hear the guy, still smell him, and still hit him. Now if the Sam was just shooting with a sound and thermal suppressor it'd be harder to spot him.

If it was melee there'd be Blind Fighting rules to take into account, but gangers are tough unless they're 300 BP. They're usually proficient in close combat, one Troll should've been there for subdual. Pin the sam down. It'd be hard but they could've been smart about it, as predators often are, and circle their foe.

You haven't even mentioned Mental Manipulations yet which just lets you do all sorts of crazy without even needing the Sam. Spirit Concealment is kinda nuts yes.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 01:34 AM

Good info, thanks Mike. I appreciate you providing counters that aren't over the top (like "Everyone has Ultrasound!"). It's a good start. Do the book have any sections on dealing with mages and their shenanigans? Thanks for "shenanigans" Mike; I'm going to use that for the remainder of this conversation.

Posted by: 3278 Oct 20 2009, 01:41 AM

Sure is. Invisibility is bad, but how about Shapechange, or Influence? Or Mind Probe, for crying out loud! A spellcaster can do more-or-less anything he pleases to a mundane from as far away as the limit of his sight, and there's really very little [beyond getting out of sight; smoke's nice, and is a pretty inexpensive solution to invisible sammies, too] that mundanes can do about it. Yes, there is specialized equipment, but if the mage is a mile in the air being a raven before he drops the Powerball on the gangers, why would they be using it?

Professional settings have it a bit easier, with the possibility of staff mages, astral wards, tasked spirits, ultrasound systems, and all the smoke they can pipe to your location, but you're still not wrong: magic is a huge gamebreaker, and ultimately the only real defense is another mage, and he'd better be good at what he does.

Posted by: 3278 Oct 20 2009, 01:49 AM

Really? I ask because in real life, ultrasonic motion sensors are generally paired with something like a passive infrared sensor or a microwave sensor, and the door won't open unless both show [the same] movement; this reduces false positives due to electronic noise, dark currents in CCDs, and so on. If they were just ultrasonic, the local grocery store wouldn't set off your [god-damned too-sensitive] radar detector [that you ended up getting rid of because it made you drive too fast...or is that just me?]. Anyway, if it's different in Shadowrun, it'd be good to know!

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 01:51 AM

Grocery stores that I frequent don't even have any doors, they are just a portal during open business hours...

I believe that 3278 is correct in hi=s assesment above...

Of Course... YMMV

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 02:06 AM

I didn't want to be "right" here. I wanted "you are so wrong because you forgot that" instead. One of those rare instances I suppose. Well... should I boot the mage and go back to a two sammy game? Sure, they could only do the lower level runs but we had buckets of fun. Although it's like Pandora's Box; we know what happens with magic now, I guess we just have to handle it.

So, what is a good tactic for an enemy mage? Here are some scenarios.

1) Someone, a gang of runners, is breaking into the building that me (the mage) and my security team are protecting. I'm the only mage and I've got 1 LVL5 spirit in standby and I'm a good summoner (Skill 4). What do I do? Go astral and search for the intruders? Summon a watcher? Summon an air elemental to locate them?

2) I'm in a helicopter with my strike team and we are hunting for the runners that extracted an employee. What should I be doing? Providing overwatch for my helicopter with astral perception? Go astral and zip around the outside of the heli? What should I be doing with my spirits (2 lvl 5s on standby, can easily summon a lvl 3-4)?

Posted by: toturi Oct 20 2009, 02:22 AM

Mages are supposed to be powerful and good mages are worth many times their weight in gold. Remember, if you have a mage PC, he is supposed to be able to walk all over mundane opposition if he is smart about it. It helps if you keep the idea that well-built PCs should trump the example runners and NPCs firmly in mind. Most of the runs aren't anything to write home about, but when the shit hits the fan, well... that's when you don't get to write home.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 02:24 AM

Well Said Toturi...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 02:34 AM

Okay, I see where you're going here, and I kind of agree, but how do you make the games fun? If the run isn't anything to write home about then it sounds kind of boring. And your other option was basically party wipe. In fact, this is my other problem: Trying to create fun game sessions that won't insta-gib everyone while still providing challenges. Before I started including mages again things were going well. Now I only see cakewalks or dead PCs.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 02:43 AM

This is a tough concern... balancing is always a challenge when mages are involved... but generally, the mage needs to be concerned with defeating magical challenges rather than the mundane challenges that the Street Sam is concerned with, this will tend to keep the players on par... proper tools for proper tasks as it were...

Sorry that I cannot be of more direct help, but it is late...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: toturi Oct 20 2009, 02:46 AM

You can vary the opposition type. One day it may be another mage. The next a meddlesome free spirit. Yet the next day, a storm comes in and screws everyone over with a Background Count.

For myself, when I GM, I stress the lethality of the game system. I tell my players that if they do it right, things are smooth sailing. They usually play games where the GM thinks like you, I must "challenge" my players else it would not be "fun". They never know when the other shoe is going to drop. They can go for 2-3 runs with everything going smoothly, then on the next run, things go to hell (or they could just keep sailing smoothly on). The key is you aren't doing anything to jack up the tension, they do it to themselves. They keep second guessing,"What is he up to?" when the answer is simply,"Nothing." I always point out,"All I need is for 1 of you to screw up on 1 important roll and you are all screwed."

Every roll during the run, whether it is the Athletics check to climb the fence or the hacker getting into the system or the mage dropping the guards with a Stunball, they know that if they screw up, things go south. That's enough excitement, I'd think.

Posted by: Trench Oct 20 2009, 03:21 AM

Id say the mage has had his moment of fun, and its not unreasonable to think that most security teams have some degree of countermeasures against the most common spells. Magic is powerful, but its been around a while now and Lone star doesnt just crumple up like a cartoon roach in a Raid commercial

[MAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!?! *BooM].

At the same time, you dont want to point the Magic gun the other way. So you need some Mage-hunter type characters. Of course they have ultrasound! Its the best vision all around! Before you can get line of sight you will have to overcome their mundane Infiltration and camouflage. Willpower augmentation and Spell Resistance will be part of any smart merc's arsenal.

If you dont want Overkill VS Overkill, or a spirit boxing match, have your mage be a counter-mage. Load him up with tons of banishing and counterspelling, with some visibility reduction and a couple tricks to keep him alive. And dont be afraid to use the characters' MO to load a trap for them.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 03:32 AM

Drone support.

That explains your sensor needs without being too overpowered. It's a fact of life that security's mostly a matter of drones and they help out immensely. Security companies aren't dumb after all, and corpsec would have all sorts of toys.

Now some of this is a matter of perspective. Two PCs should've been able to kick the butt out of four-to-six Ganger NPCs, especially if they have a couple dozen karma under their belts. Where they drugged up? Tempo?

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 03:34 AM

No, excellent post Tymeaus. I forgot the main rule of a fixer. Use the right runners for the right jobs. A group with a mage are going to used for jobs that necessitates a mage's skills. Be it spirit issues (ghostbusting), stealing artifacts or a number of other magic themed runs. That is going to create quite the perception change for me since I'm not as rooted in mage running work as I am in the mundane. Thanks!



It's the "where the GM thinks like you" line that I need to address. I think you have me pegged incorrectly. I do not create games to cause issues for the characters necessarily, I create a fully functional world that they interact with. Any challenge that comes from that world is legitimate and never stressed to be any other thing that something that may naturally happen in the course of events. The missions that these characters are presented with are considered "challenging" only by what they are asked to do and what they are capable of. If I say "challenging" it only means that a fixer would not ask these highly trained and specialized runners to go shoplifting from Target or swipe car radios. I mean that if a fixer is to pay these individuals they need to be performing tasks that are up to what the fixer believes these runners are capable of. The right tools for the right job. And that is where my problems begins.

Of course I think I understand, it's just going to take a lot of work and reading the more magical side of SR. I'm so firmly rooted in the mundane side of shadowrunning that I struggle with the magical side. I need to create magic based runs instead of my usual and I think I'm actually looking forward to this. Thanks again gang.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 03:39 AM

Actually, I'm fine with 2 PC's destroying dozens of gangers, if they are intelligent about it. It depends on the gang, I suppose, but gangers aren't usually very augmented or highly trained. The typical runner is usually a somewhat stealthy murder-machine.

Posted by: toturi Oct 20 2009, 04:39 AM

OK, I can go with that. To me, the job offers really depend on the fixers. If the fixer is a cautious, careful guy who makes damn sure when he sends his runners in for a job, they will succeed, then this sort of imbalanced encounters would result.

Say I am the fixer. I want my runners to succeed because when they do, it adds to my rep. My guys don't fail. So I go for overkill, I am willing to pay a premium for success, I am willing to take a smaller cut because I am looking out for the long term. Maybe I am small time, but I am bed-rock-secure small time.

It is up to you what odds the fixer is willing to take or how much risk is acceptable. My players know that if they get a job from Fixer A, it is small potatoes but they won't go hungry or get dead. If Fixer B calls, it is lucrative but risky. Perhaps you can vary the fixers and Johnsons that give them the jobs. Risky jobs may have an enemy mage on tap or go up against paranormal critters.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 05:06 AM

Awesome, then we're on the same page. The fixer that the team is using thinks along those lines.

My issue is that Shadowrun is known for one thing : A run never goes as planned. I like to give the players this feeling, or I would like to give the players this feeling, but it has to be done carefully. I don't want to force something to just screw with the players but I'd like the world to naturally take care of this itself; perhaps in the form of traffic jams, gangers, enemy runners / corps, etc. Otherwise our games would be very bland.

Two games ago the players broke into a place, evaded security, and got the data without every being discovered. Cool, it was an impressive feat, but appeared to be a milk run due to it's ease (and excellent planning). But milk runs don't make for a good series of games, IMHO at least. And due to my gamers' intelligence every game can be a milk run if I don't toss in a monkey wrench occasionally.

The mage issue is going to cause me all sorts of new headaches though. A mage-centric monkey wrench can easily kill the PCs. Going to have to think about this one.

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 05:21 AM

We found that being dual-natured or going astral was often very bad. Because all the astral crap that can't bother someone on the physical plane can kill you dead in a heartbeat. For example, Manabolts from an atacker inside a ward is hugely deadly on the astral, because your PC mage can't see through the opaque barrier that a ward is on the astral, while the mage or the spirit can see out. Without LOS mana spells don't affect you, and you can only cast mana spells when you are astral.

Posted by: 3278 Oct 20 2009, 05:22 AM

Do you mean, "When you are astral, you can only cast mana spells," or did you mean to say mana spells can't be cast when you're physical?

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 05:28 AM

In SR4 mages get huge advantage for minimal cost. However it was a lot worse in SR3.

Anyhow, we started seeing PC teams made up completely of mages. The spell defense and astral stuff are independent of how many point of magic you have. Given the right spells you can do some very clever things without a lot of points of magic.

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 05:32 AM

The former. Sorry for the confusion.

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 05:32 AM

Duplicate.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 05:54 AM

Mages can be quite game-breaking. Must be why I love playing them, ahem.

Good news is that while it's not as easy as with Technomancers to deal with (turns power off, shuts down stuff) there are still ways of countering Magic, as a GM, without being too overt.

1) Background Counts
2) Wards, Barriers, and more Wards. Use the various tricky kinds in Street Magic, so just in case one goes Astral for a little recon...
3) Mundane use of Bio-fiber walls and so on can inhibit spirits.
4) A confluence of cheap cameras and drones. For added fun, these merely send reports back to a central node, checking in once an hour as they do their patrols. They're in constant contact, but they can't be hacked easily (in case you had a hacker nearby). This means OR5+ for multi-sense illusion spells, which is doable.
5) Corpsec should be mostly nonlethal, so they'd be all for the use of SnS ammo, which is great for (or rather against) Spirits. It may do diddly against your Nonconductive-wearing runners, but their drones and spirits will get a shock.
6) Grenades. Be liberal with them.

You can always ease off if your players start doing badly in a fight. But it's harder to escalate and then judge just how much extra force is necessary to scare them.

But Background Counts do wonders, as does Mana Static for your wagemages.

Also, don't neglect the magical investigation angle. Spell auras and spirits do linger and can be traced. Making life hell for the Mage when not on the run should be one of the GM's pastimes.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 06:02 AM

Damn it, I've been putting off Street Magic. Time to man up I guess, I just read so freakin slow. And thanks for the other suggestions. I'm a bit weak on wards and background counts so I'll start studying those.

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 06:17 AM

There are a bunch of ways to nerf magic to some degree, but you have to have a pretty good idea what is possible using the rules before you want to do this.

First thing to think about is that the visibility mods ALSO affect magic. So if it's dark, raining, etc the mage loses dice on combat spells.

In terms of nerfing, here are a few ideas, there are many other ways to do this. But don't do this as a first recourse.
Direct combat spells are the obvious, you can allow regular damage resistance to them. You can increase the drain. You can make overcasting prohibited or much more dangerous.

You can make mana barriers much more effective. Instead of it adding force as a die modifier, have it provide threshold=force.

Spirits. Have powerful spirits be really annoyed that some puny mortal is summoning them. A force 12 spirit is smarter than any metahuman.... You can reduce the effectiveness of their armor. You can increase the drain done by summoning.

Posted by: toturi Oct 20 2009, 06:53 AM

Most players that have read the fluff know that things go wrong on runs. They expect it and start to suspect things when things go smoothly.

Some less experienced players get complacent. After a few smooth flowing games, they assume they know it all, get bored and they get sloppy. They skip the legwork, or don't do a thorough research. Things then come apart. Happens to almost everyone new to my GMing style.

Posted by: Nimblegrund Oct 20 2009, 06:57 AM

How about keeping him busy on the astral? When an enemy mage starts throwing spells at the players from the astral, it's the mage's duty to step up and duke it out... leaving him dead weight in the meanwhile.

Posted by: EvilP Oct 20 2009, 08:02 AM

As for spirits materializing inside vehicles I don't think it would always be as easy as it sounds. The spirit must obviously be able to move at the same speed as the vehicle, I would also be tempted to have the spirit make a skill roll in order to match the maneuvering of the vehicle.

A rigger cocoon with 20 armor would foil even a high force spirit and by the look of things renders the occupant more or less immune to LOS spells and critter abilities since it has a structure rating.

Any larger, expensive vehicle would probably have built-in extinguishers. Especially if the vehicle is expected to resist gunfire. For example the M1A2 battle tank has a built in halon extinguisher and most aircraft and boats have something similar even if it's just hand held extinguishers. No one wants to burn to death in a metal box after all. If a fire spirit materializes in such a vehicle and is struck by the extinguishers then it'll have to resist a powerful attack that counts as a severe allergy

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 08:09 AM

When the spirit is on the astral vehicles can not move fast enough to evade them nor does the armor protect the spirit from flying inside. From there it can manifest and gut the vehicle and incinerate it's passengers. And if fire doesn't do it for you any other spirit can be almost as destructive. I wish it wasn't that easy, but for most vehicles, it is. There are ways of getting around it but I don't see it happening often.

Posted by: Blade Oct 20 2009, 10:28 AM

Marwynn gave a good list.

Don't forget that drones should be much more important in security than most GM usually have them be. (They cost less, won't run away and hide, cause less problems when destroyed... and there are ways to reduce the probabilities of hacking). They can be quite problematic for a mage.

Also consider that even if there might not be a squad of patrolling mages in every place, a lot of places will have passive astral defense that can detect astral/magical intrusion and off-site astral backup can arrive very quickly with spirits and projected mages.

Finally, my way to deal with mages is to have them become toxic/crazy/twisted for or because of their powers. It doesn't prevent them from being very powerful, but it adds some side-effects to this power. A mage PC will often want to get more spells, more Magic... often this means more karma. But this can be done faster with some pacts, or by attuning yourself to that "violent death" background count that tend to be around when you fight, so that you get a +1 Magic modifier rather than a -1.
And when you can control minds, you don't just use that power during runs. Come on! You've got a way to cut the line, to get a discount, to get a date with that nova-hot girl, to have her remember your night together as the best of her life...

Posted by: Cardul Oct 20 2009, 10:56 AM

Is your mage using Invisibility, or Improved Invisibility?
If he is just using Invisibility, then having a Security drone
with the security team works..just have it on Autopilot, following
the guards on their route, and its dog-brain is set to alert the
buildings Spider on encountering muzzle flashes or anyone in
the facility who is not broadcasting correct credentials. Guards should
also have biomonitors that, again, upon death or unconsciousness,
alert the Rigger and appropriate other assets in the facility.

Also, does not attacking make invisibility get dropped?

Do the runners also remember to put their commlinks in Hidden Mode?
Does the Samurai have the wireless on his Cyberware disabled? Do
they make sure to run a Tag eraser over their clothes? It can be amusing
for them to be going through the building, the Sam invisible, except for
the AR broadcast of "Jacket bought at Weapons World! On sale until XXXX, only 300 Nuyen!"
around him

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 20 2009, 12:17 PM

Even Gangers should have little "pet" drones. Drones are everywhere, and so are image links. Regular Invisibility should be no real problem to counter.

I've got to say that spirits using edge after force 4 is a good possibility. Force 4 means willpower 4 which makes for a willful being. I'd flip a coin to see if they fully resist at that force range (barring good roleplaying,) but 6 or more should always throw edge to resist summoning. A force 6 spirit has a genius intellect and a heroic will. It should not be content to be ordered around.

Here's another idea for messing up the mage if anyone ever gets a bead on him. Equip response teams and drones with strong spotlights or diffuse lasers designed to cause blindness/disorientation. Without flare compensation, directed light can cause huge vision penalties on anyone. Much in the same way, sonics can be used on anyone without dampers installed. For instance, give him negative modifiers to sustain spells with alarms blaring.

Posted by: EvilP Oct 20 2009, 12:21 PM

I think the question is how materialization works. It's a complex action isn't it? Can it be done smoothly in a maneuvering helicopter without appearing with your head inside the rotors by accident?

Also if any spirit can materialize anywhere while going at astral speeds then a mage could ask a spirit to materialize in front of an enemy while going at 100+ metres per second. I don't have the books with me, but if you count it as a ramming test then even a low force spirit could do something like 20DV...

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 20 2009, 01:53 PM

What are the options for mundane characters when it comes to fighting spirits, manifest or otherwise? The Immunity to Normal Weapons on a high force spirit makes damaging it worse than attacking some vehicles. A spirit that doesn't manifest is essentially untouchable by a mundane. Are there weapons a mundane can use to fight the astral, or that are specifically targeted at manifest spirits without allergies? Our groups mage is running the next session, and we've lost all our magical backup...

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 02:34 PM

Your best bet is either APDS ammo or Stick-n-Shock and various Tasers, but yes that requires manifestation.

If it's on the astral it can't really hurt you. It can't cast spells or attack your astral forms if you're not astrally perceiving or projecting. So don't, if you can. Now, those Possession spirits are something else.

There are various drugs that'll let you become dual-natured for a bit, if you really want to punch a spirit. I don't know if that's worth it.

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 20 2009, 03:13 PM

AV Rounds and AZ-150 Stun baton handles the manifestation portion, I guess. Not pretty, but better than nothing.


Now THAT... is an awesome idea. Does it only allow for unarmed attacks, or can you use a weapon foci to attack astral while you're Under The Influence?.. Assume I have no Magic rating at all.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 03:38 PM

Weapon Foci have to be attuned to you, and only Awakened can use them.

I forget if the drugs let you use unarmed in place of astral combat.

Posted by: Cheshyr Oct 20 2009, 04:09 PM

Hrm. Ok, a related question... Magical Compounds are listed as being usable by Mundanes or Awakened (Street Magic p88). Most of them give Critter Powers. I cannot find a power rating for these compounds. Since critter powers are based on a critter's magic rating, does this mean a mundane is SoL? Or is there a clause somewhere I'm missing that specifies the power of the compound? The price listings for the Compounds don't specify a strength or rating either.

Edit: Drugs let you use unarmed or weapon foci. However, your stats are based on willpower and charisma, not your physical stats. It sounds like going astral or dual is a bad idea for a street sam. Best to keep things in the physical world for now. However, magical compounds used by mundanes would be just plain fun.

Posted by: kzt Oct 20 2009, 04:30 PM

You can't toss spells at the mundanes from the astral. What we've seen is that when the mage does his astral perception bit he gets manabolted from the astral. We've been on both side of this. It pays to be the guy laying in wait....

Posted by: The Monk Oct 20 2009, 06:51 PM

Ayeohx, since you have two players you have an opportunity to create a very deep and detailed setting for your players. For my own games the way I deal with spirits is to treat them like NPCs.

I detail where the spirits are from, what their motivations are etc. For example, my Mage player likes to summon Fire Elementals (mainly because he has a binding focus for them). In my games all of the Fire Elementals are from the same Meta Plane, but from two different factions. Some are from the Bronze City others are from the Black Castle (yes I've clearly stolen ideas from Arabian Nights, and yes all the spirits have vaguely Arabian sounding names.

They also have a very strict caste system, so say a force one spirit may be a slave and a force nine spirit a powerful lord. Also they are all different sizes. The force nine spirit would stand eleven feet tall, have the head of an elephant and bright blue skin, with all sorts of gold jewelry and pierces, and perhaps a huge flaming scimitar.

Once you establish this kind of detail, you could play around with it. Spirits from the Bronze City will fight those from the Black Castle if given half the chance. They may refuse to work with each other or end up yelling insults at each other during a run. Also a spirit from a higher caste may treat other lower caste spirits badly, refuse to work with them, or attempt to command them to do things.

All of this the Mage must manage.

A powerful spirit may take its time materializing, coming into the material world in a flashy matter (a Fire Elemental may slowly materialize from a swirling smoke at first then glowing embers appear finally flames and then a huge roar as the ten foot tall monster is finally materialized screaming "Great Sulaiman I come to do your bidding!" Also may not fit in helicopters, or at the very least if it does it may tear the thing up, bring it down from the sky exploding and destroying the spirit as it does so.

The Concealment Power I like to tie somehow to the Spirit itself. For example an Air Elemental using the Concealment Power would conjure up a thick fog. It may take a few minutes for it to build up and it would move with you, concealing all within it. Useful in many circumstances, but if you are sneaking around inside a secure facility, a thick obscuring supernatural fog may not be all that subtle.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 20 2009, 07:04 PM

Ok, just skimmed the thread but it seems to me that you need to lower the general dicepools and start imposing things like background count and reasonable "anti-Runner" security setups such as turning out all of the lights, strobing flashpacks, blaring loud music, and in more secure facilities, venting in smoke and fugi spores to make everyone's life more miserable.

Really Mages are powerful but virtually everything they do with their mojo leaves an Astral fingerprint that can really screw them over, you aren't giving them all of the time in the world to clean up after themselves are ya?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 07:15 PM

Mages cannot throw seplls from the Astral to the Physical... and no grounding of spells through Foci anymore either...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 07:19 PM

Invisible Mages do not suddenly become visible when attacking, though you should get an idea of where they are attaacking from in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 07:22 PM

Yeah, but don't forget... Sending spirits to their death (and manifesting in front of a speeding vehicle is pretty much death for most spirits Force 6 or lower) does not endear you to the spirit world... gonna start acquiring Spirit Bane Negative Qualities pretty quickly with that tactic...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Apathy Oct 20 2009, 07:51 PM

A lot of this is redundant to what people have already said, but:
As GM, you keep mages in check by how you set up the world, and how you imagine corps would defend against magic.
How you set up the world.

The two easiest balances against mages are the optional rules for making drain nastier, and the application of background count.
• For optional drain rules, I dislike the new one in SR4A - it makes calculating drain more complicated and slows down combat. Instead, if you must nerf mages you could always go with the optional rule in the BBB and make drain "Force plus X" instead of "Half Force plus X".
• If you don't want to use any optional rules, you can just make background count more common. General opinion on the board is that BC is rare, but nothing in canon really says one way or the other. BC really hoses mages fast so don't apply more than a point or two unless you want them to be useless.

How targets defend vs magic.
On the low-budget end (gangs)...

• Use dogs or similar for detection. They're cheap and you could assign one to every guard if you wanted to. Their primary sense is smell, so they'll catch the mage even though he's invisible, sound-dampened, and levitating.

Mid-budget (A and AA corps)

• Wards. They're relatively cheap to set up, don't require a full mage to make, and would be most places which are valuable enough for a decent mundane alarm system. They don't have to be high - Force 1 is fine. They just let the creating mage know as soon as they're breached by an astrally active presence. Then the monitoring mage calls Lonestar.
• DocWagon bracelets (or similar). Generic sec guards will never stop real runners of any type - they're just there so the alarm will go off when you kill them. Then the monitoring agency calls Lonestar, locks all the doors, and disables wireless in the building.
• Drones. They're cheaper, easier to hide, harder to affect with magic, and more durable than people.

Higher budget (AAA and secure facilities)

• Magic. As always, the best counter for magic is magic. AAAs will either have a mage on site or a remote mage on call that can astrally zip over there with his spirits to kick ass. Spirits/Watchers patrolling perimeter or pairing up with guards to alert them of magical activity.
• Alternate sensor suites. Sonar, Radar, Pherome Detectors, RFID sensors, etc for alternate ways of spotting the bad guys.
• Artificially created background count (there's an awakened lily which creates a BC of up to 4 - consider spreading those around the entrances.)
• Defensive architecture. FAB. Biofiber in the walls. Revolving Doors with cameras and pressure plates which don't turn, or worse trap the runner if he's invisible and/or levetating. The nastier version then fills the enclosed compartment with knockout gas. Highly secure buildings will be underground, making astral scouting difficult (move through earth takes a long time)

Finally, opposition should use intelligent tactics. Magic has been around for over half a century and people know it's capabilities and limitations. Attackers will stay spread out so they don't get hit by one AoE spell, or rush among the team so that you can't use AoE spells without also hitting your own people. They'll make use of cover so you can't see them until they're close.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 20 2009, 07:56 PM

Take note of these because it shows how speed is really, really important in the Shadowrun world. Runners typically have a fairly short time table to work with if they're detected, particularly if they do something that escalates the situation, such as a allowing a bunch of biomonitors to alert the central metroplex corp security station that an entire on-site goon squad just went unconscious in the blink of an eye. Now, you might say "But the team Hacker can intercept that message!," which might be true, but in that case you might consider the idea that you're making it too easy for the team to isolate their targets consistently. Hackers and Mages are powerful, but their toughest opponents can literally move faster than the speed of sound, since Agents, Spirits, corp Spiders and projecting wage mages all have ways to check in on a facility without having to actually worry about little things like physics. So while skilled hackers and corp mages may be relatively rare numerically speaking, it often doesn't really mean that much in practice because they're so capable of providing remote backup. This forces runner teams to hit things hard and fast, since siege tactics like chain summoning Spirits from a helicopter are operating under the assumption that the guys right in front of you are the only thing you have to worry about, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 20 2009, 07:58 PM

They don't become visible per se, but they get the Blind Fighting bonus to them (or rather the others get the penalty).

Posted by: cndblank Oct 20 2009, 08:01 PM

I agree Magicians should be powerful, but they can over shadow the other players very easily.

One thing you can do is give the Mundanes 10 or 20 K of free cyberware at start up to help balance it out (or at least encourage more people to play mundanes rather than awakened).

Another is require the Mage to start the game with a lower Magic rating.

If it is bad enough, you might be able to talk your player in to rewriting the character with a lower Magic stat so that the Magician doesn't over shadow the Street Samurai so much.

One issue we have is that Magic is used for every thing and the Mage can always pull out the big can of Whoop Ass with Overcasting.
That leads to the Mage really hogging the spot light when they are the Swiss army knife and the go to guy with the chips are down.

I've heard someone suggested that an overcast requires both a Physical Drain test and a Stun Drain Test. That would seriously slow down the Mage and let the other characters have a chance to shine.

Having Lonestar check out every site that the Mage has been throwing magic around at and letting him know they know what his spells look like and are looking for him might convince him to pull his horns in a little.

Also all the Spirits and Biologicals (Hell Hounds, Cockatrice, and the like) will go for the Mage first. He is the one that is blazing like a torch while the Street Samurai's aura can barely be seen.

Finally never under estimate the power of pure confusion. Visibility is a big issue with Mages. People are running around screaming. Lights are flashing. The ground might be rough and slippery. Weird things are happening.Have them having to duck or get hit by a car that doesn't see them or a rolling dumpster can slow them down.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 08:12 PM

Not really... those mages that are optimized to be pure mages will not really wory all that much about throwing Drain twice... 0 Drain x 2 is still 0 Drain... Most highly competant mages can control their drain enought that they never suffer from it (ar at the very least, minimally suffer from it)... this just slows the game down because now you are rolling twice for drain instead of once.

Keep the Faith

Posted by: cndblank Oct 20 2009, 08:20 PM

Thought of one more point.

Any thing you can do to pin the Mage down is going to provide time for the Street Samurai to shine.

If the Mage has to keep sustaining a detection spell or keeping an eye astral on some thing then you can provide problems for the Street Samurai to deal with.

Posted by: Whipstitch Oct 20 2009, 08:23 PM

I guess this line of thought surprises me a bit because I've never really had an issue with the street samurai of all people really being over shadowed. For one thing, a good samurai should be as fast or faster than anyone else on the team and have a whole bucket full of perception modifiers as well as enough Reaction to drive a vehicle passably well. As a mage player I just let them handle combat more often than not. Dude can eat nails and crap bullets anyway, so why the heck should I stick my neck out?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 08:27 PM

There is no doubt about that here... yes a mage can be extremely powerful, but they have their own tasks to take care of... let the Street Sam tear through the physical opposition... that is his job after all...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: cndblank Oct 20 2009, 08:28 PM

And that would be bad why?

Once I've recorded the damage to the NPC, I'm on to the actions of the next player so only the player of the Mage character is going to have to have to make the extra roll.

Gives me a little extra time to plan the oppositions next move.


I mean if the Mage wants to cast force 11 stunbolts then that if fine, but if he is casting the big stuff at Force 11, I want him to worry a little about it.

As is if he gets a bad roll he will just use Edge. This way he has to save the Edge for the Physical Drain and he at least has a chance to pick up some stun damage.

Thanks

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 08:41 PM

Per your statement, you have no extra time as you are already on to the next character/NPC's interaction... and forcing 2 rolls slows everything down... and really... 3 Physical damage from that Overcast Stun Bolt is pretty damn significant (even if he does soak all of that damage; and why should that be any different than him overcasting that Napalm Spell at Force 11 (12 Drain)... it will be self limiting in the end)... equates to receiving a bullet wound... this is why we have 2 tracks, to simulate incrementing grevious wounds from non-letahl to lethal; and why we have a drain mechanic that get more lethal with the power of the spell... using 2 rolls against the character with a 17dp Drain roll is just stupid in my opinion, and wastes time... it forces him to lose track of what is going on around him... I don't know about you, but I still want to be involved in the narrative of the story going on around me, not trying to resolve multiple extraneous rolls because soemone thinks that I am too powerful of a mage...

I have said before... the mage is there to be a hammer when needed (hell, as are all of the other archtypes), and has considerations all of his own... let him shine where he needs to shine and let the others shine where they need to shine...

Are you going to penalize the Street Sam because he has 4 IP and a Fully Automatic Grenade Launcher and is laying waste to a facility? How about the Technomancer who is threading Stealth to 14 because he can and is raiding all of your corporate Servers? Each Archtype has their own specialties that they will be good at, and which you will have to plan for)... I would quit worrying about the MAge (or the Physad, or the Hacker, or the Technomancer) and just let them shine...

You can control a cahracter's actions through the world itself without having to resort to handicapping a specific power or archtype... never forget, there are always bigger and badder Sharks out there just waiting for your characters to swim into their domain...

Probably was not a lot of help here.... Sorry about the Rant...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: cndblank Oct 20 2009, 09:27 PM

I've had a Gunslinger Physical Adept over shadow the Street Samurai in my campaign early on.

Attribute Boost is powerful.

But one time I surprised the group and the Adept was really at a disadvantage (sans boosted attributes) while the Sammy was ready to rock and roll.

Posted by: cndblank Oct 20 2009, 09:54 PM

I have to balance out the game so all my players have fun.

Every thing else is secondary.

If one player who has been doing very very well for himself has to roll an extra resistance test then that is how is will have to be.

Posted by: Nimblegrund Oct 20 2009, 09:59 PM

Could they summon spirits?

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 20 2009, 10:52 PM

Sure, you can summon spirits anywhere... but the spirits have to materialize and only one summoned spirit per mage unless you are using bound spirits...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Octopiii Oct 20 2009, 11:04 PM

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=26840&view=findpost&p=813656 are some tips for challenging mages without necessarily bringing out a mage of your own.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 20 2009, 11:27 PM

As usual, excellent post everyone. I've got a ton of advice so here's what I'm going with:

Drones
This isn't just to throw off mages but someone mentioned that they are cheap. I've been using more metahuman security than I should have when drones are a better option. A few thousand for a excellent sec drone or a few thousand every month for a fleshy? I'd go with the drones myself. Still, I don't think everyone (the common citizen) would carry a drone because most wouldn't have a use for them.

Background count
I don't pay enough attention to this. My runs tend to hit the Redmond Barrens a lot and that place has to have some really nasty astral spots.

Spirits on Loan
I tend to forget that mages can bind spirits and loan them to people. I know that if I was a semi-wealthy shop owner I'd pay for a mage to loan me a spirit of man.

Wards
Even smaller stores should be able to afford wards. Also, Street Magic has a lot more on wards; I need to check it out.

Send Mages on Runs that Require Mages
Another "oops" of mine. I keep running the game as if two samurai are playing. Now that it's a mage and a samurai these guys can go after runs involving magical threats. Even better paying jobs which will make my players happy.

Ultrasound
Ultrasound has always confused me a bit in the past. It helps with vision but it's not an eye enhancement, it's headwear. I think I finally get it and I'll be including it a bit more often. Not so much as cyberwear but it'll be in all high end sec-gear helmets.

Shock Weapons
It seems kind of wierd that normal weapons do not work yet electricity attacks will. We've been playing before SnSs came out so they seem a little foreign to us. But if it's the only thing that mundanes can use to drop spirits I guess they'll swiftly get integrated into our games. Shocking a fire spirit, or earth spirit, into submission seems to be such a cheesy workaround though.

RTFM
Meh. I don't want to read Street Magic right now but I think it'll help. I've browsed it and I know that the defenses versus magic were promising but... meh. I'm still spinning from Unwired.

Skipping for Now
I am not going to add houserules or use the optional rules to fix these issues; yet, anyways. There is obviously more that I can do with the world itself to limit the mage's impact of the game.

Thanks again gang! I really appreciate the help!

Edit:
Thanks for the link Octopiii. The Magical Guard sounds good but I really liked the idea of a offsite sec mage showing up in astral with his spirit army when an alarm sounds. Seems so obvious; somehow I missed it. That is a great service for freelance sec mages to offer. I bet my player may start a side business for his mage when I mention it to him.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 21 2009, 03:48 PM

Do remember that the security and military purpose drones you see listed in the gear section only represent the kind of gear that pros are going to be interested in. There's plenty of cheap little "robot pals" out there like emoti-toys that can add sensor capabilities to bypass regular invisibility. Improved invisibility should, naturally, take security-level sensors and drones to invalidate.

Oh, and it's great to see octopiii out. He's a wellspring of innovative SR4 ideas.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 21 2009, 06:32 PM

Those little, cheap ass, toy drones will also see through the Illusion if the caster does not get at least 3 hits on the Physical Spell involved...

Just because they are not Military or Security level does not change the OR that is needed to bypass the sensors

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Sixgun_Sage Oct 22 2009, 10:10 PM

When I play, I play either a combat hacker, or a mystic adept, so I tend to have to scratch for points, which means outside of my area of expertise my character is relatively vulnerable.This is generally true of all characters, the thing most people don't consider about mages and awakened characters in general is how much harder it is for them to branch out. In a tough spot the chromed out sammy can switch skillsofts, even low-end corporations have the cost for some multi-optic systems for their security (especially if said corporation is some form of tech consultancy firm), and sustaining spells is a task that does take attention away from other things you might have to do. Foci? nice targets for when the security mage does show up looking to fry someone for interrupting his lunch break. A smart enough mage WILL succeed the vast majority of the time, but only because he has planned, considered and prepared himself for the jobs he knows he can do well and only does those jobs. Everything else he relies on teammates for.

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 22 2009, 10:58 PM

Isn't the OR for drones 5? I understand that sensors themselves are OR 3 but the way it's worked before was that an object isn't usually affected by it's parts but as it's whole. So you can't necessarily target the drone's sensors, you have to target the drone itself. Once again, I got 4 different systems rattling around in here so "grandpa" tends to get confused occasionally...

Posted by: The Overlord Oct 22 2009, 11:40 PM

While most of the ideas i was going to suggest have already been covered, here is one that no one seems to have mentioned, RFID tags. The book describes them as being everywhere and anywhere. Cloths, packages, food, and so much more. While mainly used for commercial purposes, there are other applications. Since they are constantly broadcasting to the world, a careless runner is essentially a walking beacon to all sensors that pick up the RFID. No amount of invisibility or sense blocking can stop it from transmitting its existence. So even the highest force Invisibility will be worthless when the security sensors detect that someone with Ares Victory brand boxers and recently consumed soy chips is walking down an otherwise empty corridor. Even if the players disable any RFID tags that might be on them before a run, sprinkle a couple hand full of security RFID tags around key points partially covered in an adheasive so that when the player comes in contact with them then they are now walking around with RFID tags that are out of place. And being so small and innocuous that they are easily overlooked.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 23 2009, 01:51 AM

I have seen corroboration by Devs (Don't remember which thread, but it was a while ago) that Sensors (even on Drones) are OR3... You are not targeting the Subsystem of a Drone when sensors are being used for the most part... you are creating an effect that the drone sensors perceive external to themselves... if you are using Direct Combat spells, then yes, the Drone is OR5, if you are using Chaff or Trid Phantasm, or any of the other sense affecting spells, it is OR3 for Mechanical devices... the big benefit with most drones (of at least small size and up) is that they are totally unaffected by MOST sensor affecting spells as they do not include senses that the Sensors on the Drone utilize (Like Radar)... Radar is completely immune to the effects of current Illusion Spells, as there is no Invisibility to Radar in the Spell Publications... the best that you are going to get is the Chaff spell, which reduces SENSOR rating, not the benefits of the radar system, so you will still get the radars Dice Aditions, even if your SENSOR RATING is reduced...

A lot of people will disagree with this, as they do not like the idea that it appears to be targeting the Drone, when in fact the drones sensors are targeting the effect... this is a very big distinction...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 23 2009, 01:54 AM

Mitsuhama tends to use a Nano-RFID tag in spray misters at key points in their security scheme... this keeps track of those individuals in the building quite nicely...

Most people do not think to look for stuff like that...

A lot of People (Dumpshockers) do not like the ubiquitousness of RFID... I say go with it... It fits the themes of Cyberpunk quite nicely in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Blade Oct 23 2009, 08:36 AM

A careless runner is a dead runner anyway.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 23 2009, 04:01 PM

Ain't that the Truth...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Sixgun_Sage Oct 23 2009, 04:11 PM

The wise mage is aware of RFID, and takes the appropriate spells to respond. Excellant point though, the great thing about the shadowrun world is there is a challenge for every situation, and a solution to it, if you are just smart and plan ahead.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Oct 23 2009, 04:39 PM

IMHO-it is so ubiquitous that any runner worth the name takes care of the of this as SOP regardless of the players stating so. Only an idiot wouldn't erase all the tags. Of course the downside is that in a AAA area, not advertising your brand of lingerie could raise suspicion as the normal folk wouldn't even bother.

ALso, I assume the RFID's in foods last only for a few moments as the digestive juices in ones stomach woul eventuall destroy them.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 23 2009, 04:46 PM

Depends on what the tags are coated in, it's possible now to pass things all of the way through the digestive tract.

Posted by: Brazilian_Shinobi Oct 23 2009, 06:48 PM

And quite possibly have a small flashlight of sorts and film the entire trip until being finally "ejected" from your body (I know, I'm disgusting )

Posted by: Screaming Eagle Oct 23 2009, 06:53 PM

It is also quite possible to have said tag broadcast an ARO showing the live bowel footage to anyone looking in your direction.

The future is discusting sometimes.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 23 2009, 07:02 PM

I wonder if it'd be possible to create some sorta simsense recording of that. I'm sure there'd be a niche in the 6th world for it...

RFIDs are more of a generic shadow-counter, and something I feel that should only come up if you need to up the difficulty of a run or teach your team lessons in discretion. Not specifically to punch the mage in the face which can be done directly and far more effectively.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 24 2009, 12:54 AM

So I've got a question, but note that I'm playing SR3. What can be done about the Concealment power? It seems extremely effective. Is it noticeable in the astral like Invisibility is? Right now my players are using Force 8 spirits to activate Concealment, and it works on all perception checks to find them (even scent) so it's very hard to deal with.

JaronK

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2009, 12:58 AM

Concealment actually works in Astral just like in Physical Space...

To contrrol it in our game, teh GM rules that you must be actively concealed (As in Hiding) and immobile for the power to work...
May not be exactly Canon, but it does limit its abuseability somewhat...

However, the Spirit will be visible if he is in the area, unless under the concealment as well...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 03:58 AM

If I remember correctly though, Concealment shouldn't work in the manner which it does based off of it's classifaction, much like how Turn to Goo and Petify doesn't work the way that they "should".

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2009, 03:46 PM

In what way Ravor?

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 06:52 PM

Isn't Concealment classified as a "Physical" Power? If so then it shouldn't be able to affect anything in the Astral at all. If it is instead classified as being "Astral" in nature drones and technology should be immune to it's effects.

Of course, that is assuming that my memory of Concealment hasn't been fogged over by other more pleasent things.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 24 2009, 06:59 PM

So yeah, it is a Physical power. It also states that a Dual-Natured critter can conceal themselves and others astrally.



Meaning it's perfectly legal and overpowered.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 07:04 PM

Sure, but I seem to recall a general rule that makes it clear that Physical Powers don't get to work on the Astral, which Concealment then goes on to break.

Just as Turn to Goo and Petrify breaks the general rule that makes it clear that cyber is treated the same as flesh as far as magic is concerned.

Posted by: Axl Oct 24 2009, 07:05 PM

Actually this already exists. It's called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsule_endoscopy.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2009, 07:15 PM

Yeah, I remember those converstions from a few months ago... I have given up on this aspect as I got hammered by several Dumpshockers for my point of view at the time... oh well...

Either way, Concealment is a pretty powerful ability... Which is why our GM has determined that it only works when actively hiding and using minimal movement... Kind of like Spawn hiding against the wall with his cloak, concealed but not moving...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 07:19 PM

Aye, tis one of the downsides of being mellow Ravor, I tend to shrug away idiots being idiots more easily... hmm, probably better on my blood pressure though.


DISCLAIMER FOR MORONS; kindly note the smilies I posted, see, there are three of them...

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2009, 07:22 PM

Mellow Ravor is definitely an improvement over Angry, Pissed Off, Frustrated Ravor anyday...

Keep the Faith...

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 09:06 PM

Aww, you say the sweetest things.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 24 2009, 09:17 PM

Not really, No... Just acknowledging that Mellow is always better than Angry/Frustrated... you can definitely tell the difference in the posts...

Mellow is also better for MY blood Pressure as well...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Ravor Oct 24 2009, 11:32 PM

*chuckles* Hey now, even at my worst I don't think I ripped off anyone's face who didn't deserve it.

Well ... maybe once or twice ...


... a day.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 25 2009, 12:12 AM

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2009, 07:53 AM

Well, altering Concealment so it works like a broad spectrum Improved Invisibility would be an appropriate change (so it still doesn't work astrally) but is there any realistic way to deal with it from a high force spirit without changing any rules?

JaronK

Posted by: Ravor Oct 25 2009, 07:56 AM

Sadly yeah, I'm pretty sure that Concealment was supposed to work on the Astral as well, which makes it pretty much a "must have" in addition to breaking the general rules of how magic is supposed to work.


One of the reasons that I've houseruled it back into line.


*EDIT*

Hemm, it seems that I was ninja edited... Hmm, I suppose that you'd deal with high force spirit concealment in the same way that you deal with any stealthy characters, have chokepoints where being undetectable isn't really an option and use sensors that don't care whether or not you can be seen.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2009, 07:58 AM

Since I'm playing with rotating DMs, I'm trying to avoid house ruling since we all have to agree on any house rules, and we're trying to go pretty much by the book. Houserules are a slippery slope with this group... we add a few "perfectly reasonable" house rules and then some of the other DMs want "perfectly reasonable" house rules that are in fact far less reasonable. So, is there any way to do this without house rules? I notice it says it only applies to rolls to perceive a target... once located you should be able to fire freely. And would things like spray foam work to locate things?

JaronK

Posted by: Ravor Oct 25 2009, 08:02 AM

RFID Tags should work, although the spirit itself could simply fade into the Astral and drop said tags. And of course, FAB is always an option.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 25 2009, 08:02 AM

Fragging double post.

Posted by: kzt Oct 25 2009, 09:40 AM

High force spirits are game breakers. A F12 spirit is nearly immune to non-magical attackers who don't have an armor company or an attack helicopter platoon with them. If the spirit has countermagic and magical guard (24 dice of countermagic...) the only thing that can fight them is a close combat adept adept, and the spirit will almost certainly kill the adept on a hit. (as they do 12P base with 24 dice). This assumes you can find the spirit with -12 to your perception roll....

Many of the obvious combat spirits have energy aura, so every time the adept hits the spirit the adept gets to take 12P, and the adept is unlikely to get 24 dice to resist this, like the spirit does to resist the adept, so you better have distance strike....

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2009, 10:38 AM

I mentioned it earlier, but I'm in SR3. So, no RFID tags, but also no countermagic. And really, the spirits themselves aren't a huge issue in my group, it's just the concealment power they provide.

JaronK

Posted by: Falconer Oct 25 2009, 02:38 PM

This is blatant misinformation... Synner stated it weakly once then immediately recanted in that thread. Everyone always points to the one occurance then don't scan the thread (massive long thread) where he comes back and says the same thing he had been saying all along.

Against a sensor, the OR is 3. Against a Sensor Suite it's OR5. What's the difference... never really said... but drones are equipped w/ sensor suites. (they have a suite w/ a sensor capacity which they filll, plus they have an autopilot/agent which constantly monitors them, ESPECIALLY if the drone in question is running a clearsight autosoft).

If it's just a dumb security camera that records everyone coming through the door, maybe tries to do facial recognization... yeah OR3.

Quite frankly... there is nothing wrong in the game w/ mages being weak against technology, just as mundanes are weak against mages.


Also to the OP... any kind of serious combat helicopter will be warded. The spirit will have to break through the ward before it can get into the cockpit or machinery space. Also there is no room to materialize inside a rigger cocoon, he'd literally be beating on the cocoon to get to the rigger (assuming the spirit even knows the rigger is in there!! remember spirits may be smart but their alien to this plane... he may materialize inside the van and torch everyone and not realize there's a rigger in a special armored bean bag chair out of sight but in plain sight.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 25 2009, 03:44 PM

Chill Falconer, it is not Misinformation, it is a Mistake... Yeah, I did not read through all several hundred posts so it is possible that I missed the recant... It happens... But I still stand by my statement (call it a house rule then if you like)...

As for Magic being weak against technology, I have absolutely no problems with that in the least... the FACT is that regardless of whether you use OR3 or OR5 for sensors on Drones, there are still sensors that will completely ignore magical concealment or other tricks...

And, if you are using the rational that a sensor suite is tougher than a simple sensor, well, you have just crossed that line of simplicity... What makes a suite? multiple sensors by the definition you are using (it is more complicated than a single system)... therefore, almost any sensor system (except an RFID Sensor) is an actual suite as there are more than a single sensor emplaced in them... therefore any electronic device with more than a single Sensor counts as a suite?... Glasses, therefore, with a Motion Sensor, Mad Scanner, and Camera counts as a Sensor Suite, and now I am immune to the illusionary (sensorium at least) whims of the spellcaster because my OR is now a 5... Ludicrous indeed don't you think?

Just Sayin...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: 3278 Oct 25 2009, 06:45 PM

This is more-or-less what I'd do with it, as well. Movement should effect the target numbers for perception in any case, and there's no reason that wouldn't remain true with Concealment. Concealment adds X number of dice, yes [or effects the TN, depending on the version], but all the standard Perception modifiers should still apply.

If Concealment were still gamebreaking, I'd look into developing some logical countermeasures; what is gamebreaking for the players would be gamebreaking for the characters, and thus would lead to research in-game regarding countermeasures, in the same way FAB grew out of various astral exploits noticed over the years.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 25 2009, 07:11 PM

Hey, That works...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2009, 10:27 PM

At least in SR3 Concealment is gamebreaking. It adds Force to all perception TNs to locate the target. Off a Force 8 spirit (our group has a few mages with Magic 9 and one with Charisma 10) it's basically always on invisibility that stacks with other modifiers and applies to all kinds of perception. The only countermeasures I've been using are guards that drop area attacks (like nerve gassing an area where the friendly guards are all chem sealed... not appropriate in most situations) and having sensor operated doors that won't open without detecting you.

JaronK

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 26 2009, 12:29 AM

In SR 4 it reduce dice pools by the Magic Rating... Pretty brutal for high force spirits...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Axl Oct 26 2009, 02:04 PM

"Any kind of serious combat helicopter will be warded. The spirit will have to break through the ward before it can get into the cockpit or machinery space." - Falconer

Wards will not remain on anything that moves. As soon as the vehicle moves, the ward dissipates.

Posted by: Warlordtheft Oct 26 2009, 02:23 PM

How about a FAB lined interior vehicle mod.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Oct 26 2009, 03:12 PM

FAB is cheap if you've got the access...

Posted by: kzt Oct 26 2009, 04:03 PM

That is incorrect.

Posted by: Ravor Oct 26 2009, 04:58 PM

Yep, the warded copter is totally viable, but the ward is only on the inside of the vehicle.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 26 2009, 05:09 PM

Wards are of limited value as an active defense, because it's easier to make high force spirits than it is to make high force wards.

Because of the dangers of spirits materializing in cockpits, logically any combat vehicle would be designed so that the rigger would control the craft from inside an armored cocoon which had no open space available for a spirit to materialize in. If the vehicle had a troop compartment in it, that compartment would have no direct access to the pilot's cocoon except possibly.

Secondary defense might include artificially-induced background count via a vat of Moon Lillies, or high-powered toxins/pollution. I'd lean toward the Lillies myself, since they wouldn't be deadly to the crew if the container seal broke.

Edit: Designing cockpits so there's no room for materialization wouldn't help with possessing spirits. But we generally choose people with high willpowers to be riggers anyway, and a background count that reduced the spirit's force by a few points would give the pilot a decent chance to resist. Since they're rigged in, and spirits can't rig, the worst that could happen if the possession worked would be the loss of the vehicle/pilot. At least the possessed pilot couldn't effectively be turned against its own side.

Posted by: Axl Oct 26 2009, 07:07 PM

To kzt & Ravor:-

Street Magic
"Astral security"
"Wards"
"Remaining stationary"

"Wards are not portable astral objects.... If the physical anchor moves more than a few centimeters from its location at the time of the warding ritual, the entire ward collapses. Ward designers must carefully choose their physical anchors; choosing an object that must be moved obviously makes a poor choice."

Posted by: Adarael Oct 26 2009, 07:17 PM

They've clarified what they mean about anchors, wards, and under what circumstances moving an anchor collapses a ward.
From the SR4 FAQ:

Can a ward be placed inside a moving van?
"A physical anchor cannot move more than a few centimeters relative to the ward enclosure when the ward was created." That's the key phrase and it can be pretty tricky. For instance, if you create a domed ward outdoors using a rock as the physical anchor, and then someone kicks that rock a few feet, the ward will collapse. It has moved more than few centimeters from its position relative to the domed ward at creation. But, if you ward a shipping container using the walls of that shipping container as the physical anchor, and the shipping container is shipped across the Pacific Ocean, the ward does not collapse. The entire warded enclosure is moving, so in the relationship between the ward and physical anchor, it hasn't moved at all from its relationship at the ward's creation.

As an aside, this is also why the spin of the Earth doesn't cause the domed ward around the rock to collapse. Because the entire enclosure is moving with the rotation of the Earth. Until someone kicks that rock, the relationship between the ward and stone remain the same.

Posted by: Sponge Oct 26 2009, 07:40 PM

It's also spelled out a bit more explicitly in the errata:

Posted by: Ayeohx Oct 26 2009, 11:02 PM

Concealment sucks. It's a poorly written power and it's giving me a headache. It doesn't make sense. Magic in Shadowrun tends to make sense, you can imagine what's happening. Concealment, not so easily. First, here's the power:

Concealment
Type: P Action: Simple Range: LOS Duration: Sustained
This power refers to a critter's ability to mystically hide itself or
others, or alternatively to hide something that people are looking
for. Concealment subtracts a number of dice equal to the critter's
Magic from any Perception Tests to locate the concealed subject.
Concealment can be used on a number of targets simultaneously equal
to the critter's Magic; concealed subjects can see each other if the critter
allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal
themselves and others from astral detection.

This is how I'm ruling it. Concealment only helps when a perception check has to be made to notice a character affected by Concealment. In other words, this power does not force a perception test to see you, it only makes it harder to find you when you are hidden or in other ways obscured. I don't believe that the power itself says that it forces a test, it only provides penalities to Perception Test. Do you have to make a perception test if someone walks by you or to notice someone crossing a parking lot? No. No perception test, no concealment. In addition, if someone is using a simple action to Observe in Detail this does not all of the sudden mean Concealment kicks in. So basically if you're using Infiltration then you're getting benefits from Concealment. Otherwise you're visible.

That's how I'm interpretting the rules. Everyone else, do whatever you like.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Oct 27 2009, 12:42 AM

Kind of how we run it and it works great for us... Hope it works for you as well...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Fezig Oct 27 2009, 01:51 AM

As far as I can tell, that is exactly what it does. All it says is it creates a penalty when the test occurs, it says nothing about inherently forcing a test. That being said, it takes a very sloppy runner to not use infiltration when doing anything where they'd desire having the concealment power on...