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Posted by: Ravennus Oct 22 2009, 05:20 AM

Hey All,

Been forever since I posted here... glad to see you're all still around!

Sadly, I don't get to play SR much these days (if ever) and the closest I'll likely ever get to it us running a game.... but for funzies (and when I'm bored) I love throwing around different character ideas and going to town in chargen. I'm sure many of you do the same!


Anywho, I came up with this Irish Fomori Troll Adept that really kicks ass. Melee and demolitions specialist, as well as mobile cover for the entire team!
I'll post up a full version of him eventually, but I've come to a few crossroads.

The main theme for this guy is blowing shit up, either with his own bare hands or remotely via some well-placed explosives.
For his unarmed attacks, I wanted this guy to be able to punch holes through armored vehicles and blast doors. If he can get close, watch out! I plan on spending about 3 PPs on adept powers, and using about 3 essence in bioware (so a bio-adept, essentially.... a good way to go from what I've gleaned from the boards here today... glad to know my idea was sound!).

I'm just not sure what the best way to spend his Power Points is.
For sure, I'm maxing out at Rank 3 Critical Strike, so that's 0.75 pps right there.... but to simulate his massive aptitude at smashing objects and vehicles, I thought of a couple different routes that I want your opinions on.


First is..... Killing Hands + Elemental Strike (Blast) for 1 PP.

Now this is my first choice, but it depends a lot on my interpretation of the rules which I know might be faulty (hence why I'm here!).
This allows me to go to town on spirits, ignore a lot of AP, and get the Blast element added to my unarmed attacks. Now according to Street Magic, Blast is considered an 'explosive' effect... what I'm wondering is if this allows me to double my DV vs. objects and barriers?

According to the table on pg. 166 of SR4:AE, Explosive damage counts as DV x 2 when trying to damage barriers.

So would it be logical to conclude that blast element spells (and elemental strike) would double it's DV against objects?
As a GM, I think I would consider that fair. If a mage wanted to make a custom indirect blast spell, I would allow it to do extra damage vs. objects. So why not Elemental Strike?
However, I'm not sure if I'm missing something here and I'd like opinions, especially if there has ever been an official ruling on this.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the additional chance for Blast to blow away objects or add to knockback. In the description it refers to Force.... would it be fair to assume with Elemental Strike I can consider the base unarmed DV to be equal to the spell force in this instance?

Overall, I like this option the most because it's very thematic (turn my fists into explosives... definitely fits the concept!) and it's quite cost efficient and versatile... however I fully realize it may be up for debate.
Also, there is the minor disadvantage that I have to waste an IP 'powering up' Elemental Strike if I want to use it, and since my magic is only 3 it only lasts 3 combat turns before I have to blow another IP.



My second idea is much costlier, but also more clear cut. Instead of Killing Hands + Elemental Strike.... I go with Smashing Blow + Rank 3 Penetrating Strike. This costs 1.75 PP.
Smashing Blow doubles my DV vs. objects for sure but costs a whole 1 PP. I'm not worried about the physical damage, because I plan on getting Bone Density bioware... but this also means I can't damage spirits (unless I get Weapon Focus hardliner gloves?).
Penetrating Strike gives me -3 AP, which is always on. Better than the AP reduction from Elemental Strike, which only works when it's turned on.


So which would be the better option?

Or should I just get the best of all worlds... and get Killing Hands + Elemental Strike (Blast) + Smashing Blow?
Still, I'd like to save on some PPs if that ends up being redundent.


Thanks in advance for the help and advice. Keep rockin' those shadows, chummers!


Cheers,
Ravennus

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Oct 22 2009, 05:25 AM

Quick pointer to a thread that dealt with this pretty heavily awhile back (I started it, and was thankfully corrected on several points I had wrong). This should give you some ideas of how the blast effect works and such.

That thread is here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=19935

If you're specifically looking at destroying objects, then I'd definitely go the Smashing Blow/Penetrating Strike combo. Or make it more fun and add killing hands and elemental strike on top of it. Nothing says they don't stack if I recall.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 22 2009, 05:34 AM

Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike, and Smashing Blow would probably work out better for you. Elemental Strike doesn't add damage, and Blast doesn't really say much about Barriers being destroyed, just swept away or strewn about.

Also, Killing Hands + Penetrating Strike's a lot quieter with no Visible Glows and no need to use a Simple Action to turn it on for Magic turns. That's 2 or 2.25 Power Points with Smashing Blow (which might as well be called Explosive Blow because it multiplies the DV by 2).

Posted by: Ravennus Oct 22 2009, 05:47 AM

Thanks for the quick response, Jhaiisiin!

Actually, having read your thread I agree with most everything they told you and was taking that into account with my character.
A lot of the responses in that thread don't directly answer my specific questions though.

One thing that was assumed in the thread however was that Blast doesn't double DV vs. barriers.... however, since Blast is considered 'explosive', then I offer that it may be eligible to do just that, according to the barrier damage table in the core book.

Very cool though... I can see we think alike!

One response in your thread about melee 'overkill' I thought was funny. For this character, punching people isn't the point. It's punching tanks that's the eventual goal.
As a little preview, I'm pretty sure I can get about 16-17P DV (depending on how I move things around). That's BEFORE doubling it against objects. So I could easily be looking at 32+ DV against those.

He's not a one trick pony either. Demo expert, bullet shield and general juggernaut extraordinaire!


*frowns* Man.... I really wish I could play SR again sometime soon..... I have SO many fun characters!

Posted by: Ravennus Oct 22 2009, 05:49 AM

Hrm.... interesting...

But why even keep Killing Hands, especially if I have Bone Density Aug? As far as I'm aware, the Bone Density bioware locks you into doing Physical damage anyway, and I could use Weapon Focus Hardliner Gloves as a spirit killer, right?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I know Elemental Strike doesn't add damage... but the half impact armor helps, and the Blast element gives me extra knockdown, correct? But yeah... it's only a clincher for me if I can justify it also doubling the DV vs. barriers, hence my dilemma.

Posted by: Marwynn Oct 22 2009, 06:00 AM

Well if all you wanna do is punch holes then all you need is Smashing Blow and high strength, then yes. That is, if you didn't want to punch people's faces along with walls.

Elemental Strike (Blast) will give you the Knockdown sure, but I don't see it as double DV against barriers. Smashing Blow's your best bet, and of course with Critical Strike.

EDIT:

As I understand it, a weapon focus merely adds dice to the tests according to its Force. They're effective against Astral Forms when Projecting/Perceiving, but then you're using the Astral Combat Skill.

Honestly, I'd pick the ol' Shock Gloves. Electricity messes Spirits up.

Posted by: Dakka Dakka Oct 22 2009, 10:02 AM

Correct. also I'd like to point out that an Astral Form cannot affect anyone that is not at least dual natured. So the adept could simply wait till the spirit materializes and then beat him up mundanely.

Well what's better 5S(e) and the Spirit gets His Force as Armor with the shock gloves or 16-17P and the gets no Armor at all with a weapon Focus or Killing Hands?

Posted by: Ravennus Oct 23 2009, 12:10 AM

Thanks for the input!

Anyone else have any opinions?
In particular I'm interested in my possible reading of the Blast element. Since the description says it's like an explosion, that is why I'm curious whether it would count as DV x 2 vs. barriers.
I could see having an indirect Blast spell have that property (more incentive for something other than fire, electricity, sound, etc).

But I also realize that might be stretching the rules a bit... still, I've seen much worse, lol. Any other thoughts on that?


Also.... was there ever any official ruling on Elemental Strike and 'Force' effects of said element?
I've heard of the Adepts Magic score possibly counting as the Force... but that doesn't make too much sense to me, as the Force of any elemental damage spell would also be it's base DV... therefore I think it would be fair to assume that the 'Force' rating of an Elemental Strike would be the base Unarmed DV.

Thanks again for the help!

Posted by: Glyph Oct 23 2009, 01:51 AM

Incorrect. If you check out the Immunity power, with the subcategory of Immunity to Normal Weapons, weapon foci are in the list with spells and adept or critter powers - of magical weapons. Which Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply to. So a weapon focus of hardliner gloves would be every bit as effective as killing hands against spirits (along with giving a dice pool bonus to attacks). The only drawback being that they can be taken from you.