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Posted by: Pilamar Mar 22 2010, 08:45 PM

I need some help with a background summary. I know nothing about Tir na nOg but my character is an elf who was outcast from there. I was about age 30 when my father was killed by a group of shadowrunners and I became obsessed with finding them. Due to my investigating, I was framed and outcast from Tir na nOg. I need more details about the society and laws of Tir na nOg to flesh out my framing and outcasting.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Posted by: DamienKnight Mar 22 2010, 10:10 PM

http://wiki.dumpshock.com/index.php/Tir_Nations

That may be a good place to start. Are you wanting your Father to be an innocent bystandard, or was he involved with the Shadowrunners (helping them, or perhaps their target, or related to their target and got in the way etc.?)

Posted by: Mantis Mar 22 2010, 11:49 PM

If you can find it, try the Tir Na Nog source book from SR2 days. I think the number is SR7211? Not sure. Anyway that has all things Tir Na Nog

Posted by: Fatum Mar 23 2010, 12:12 AM

7211, yeah.
And I for one just love how old sourcebooks on minor nations have better art than most important modern day splats like RC.

Posted by: Mantis Mar 23 2010, 12:35 AM

Bigger art budget? Better contacts in the art world? Just be thankful it isn't a bunch of crap Poser dolls like some other products out there. FASA had pretty good art and I always thought getting Larry Elmore to do the cover art for the original core rules book was a great idea. It was the only reason I bought the thing in the first place. Yes I was judging a book by its cover but it was worth it.
I find the art in these kinds of books to be hit or miss. Depends on how well the artist understands what the subject matter is and how much reference materials they have access to.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 23 2010, 02:24 AM

Or if they can draw a metahuman that looks like a metahuman, not a third-grade schooler's scribbles, am I right? Just remember those metavariant illustrations.

Posted by: Mantis Mar 23 2010, 03:31 AM

Do I have to?
Basic anatomy is a must for any artist working with a subject even remotely human looking. You have to know how it works so you can exaggerate it or change it without totally losing what you are trying to represent. The biggest failing of the Poser art is that they are too perfect in the areas where you are looking for difference. Clothes are too clean, hair to neat and skin to perfect. There isn't enough variation in build or other areas (faces for example) to be interesting. Plus they all have those dead doll eyes. Instead of looking at what is good you only see what fails. I think Poser art is the best example of failure at the Uncanny Valley in CG art. I still prefer the pen and ink and painted work (even Photoshop painting) to anything I've ever seen with Poser. I guess some of the artists that used to work on Shadowrun work got too expensive. Of course if they are hiring up and comers we can always hope their art will get better as time goes on. I find the stuff in the core book to be pretty good but the source books...well it could use some improvement in many places (Augmentation cover is my least favourite).

Posted by: Bull Mar 23 2010, 04:10 AM

Look, Runner's Companion was generally considered to be something of a mess, especially on the art front. Catalyst made a lot of effort after that to imrpove on the art.

Look at SR4A or Seattle 2072. The art is much, much better quality, on the whole (THough the green orks in SR4A still bug the hell outta me)

Bull

Posted by: Dragnar Mar 23 2010, 05:41 AM

Wasn't the Tír na nÓg-sourcebook the one easily claiming the title in 2nd Ed that Unwired and Runner's Companion fight over in 4th (that of the worst book produced for the line)?
I've never read it and it's been too long to remember...

Posted by: kzt Mar 23 2010, 05:51 AM

What's annoying is that you can do amazing stuff with Poser. You can do even more amazing stuff with Poser, a bunch of 3rd party props & figs and photoshop, but some of the stuff I've seen published wasn't as good as the things you learn how to do in the tutorials.

You can find really good artists who are not very expensive if you prowl through the oodles of online art forums and galleries.

Posted by: Bull Mar 23 2010, 06:44 AM

No offense, but honestly most Poser art is terrible. There are exceptions, but they're few and far between, and they're usually Digital Artists using far, far better programs than Poser, and they spend as much time as traditional artists on their stuff.

Good art is good art, regardless of the medium, and generally, you need to spend for that art.

Bull

Posted by: kzt Mar 23 2010, 06:59 AM

Most "art" is terrible. I wrote most of the FAQ for Poser 3, I was a poser mod on one of the major poser sites. I have seen a lot of terrible poser images. I've also seen a lot of very cool stuff done.

It takes skill, practice and time to do something decent with poser. It takes that plus serious talent to do really cool stuff. Everybody can buy a word processor, very few people can write readable novels. But a lot more people can successfully write readable novels with a PC and Word than they can if they had to use only velum and goose feathers.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 23 2010, 07:21 AM

Nothing wrong with using a quick shitty poser mockup just for reference on a proper painted work.
Poser can give you all the angles and space relations you could need to make anatomical drawings with abnormal perspectives. Compare it to using a clay diorama or other such technique.

Still, for making a final-product poser image, the amount of work needed to make it look like anything but a shiny mess is a bit too much for a middling user.

Posted by: DamienKnight Mar 23 2010, 02:27 PM

Lol, that was quite a thread hijacking... considering Pilamar did not ask a single thing about cover art... or even mention any books.

I guess its his own fault for putting such a bland Title. But still... LOL at the near EPIC post hijack!

Posted by: kzt Mar 23 2010, 06:16 PM

Yeah, they used to run "no post" contests, where you had to submit the final render from Poser without using photoshop, etc on it. I've seem people do some very good work and managed to get adequate results myself, but it takes work, plus experimenting to understand of how to effectively use the limited lighting options in older versions.

There are a limited number of people who can really do cool stuff in any creative endeavor, whether it's playing a musical instrument, writing or art. But a persistent moderately talented person using a decent 3d tool can typically create reasonable stuff if they are willing to work at it.

Posted by: kzt Mar 23 2010, 06:16 PM

Oops. Sorry about that.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 23 2010, 11:49 PM

Indeed it wasn't my intention, sorry for that. I was just rereading RC, and opening Tir Na Nog for the reply was just a bit of a shocker on the art side.

Posted by: Mantis Mar 24 2010, 02:13 AM

Same here. Plus we did actually answer the question. Or at least point him in the right direction.