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Posted by: Tomothy Mar 23 2010, 07:12 AM

So I've finally convinced my friends to start playing Shadowrun with me and it turns out one of our mutual friends is a DM for his local group. This mutual friend has agreed to run our games for us, and suggested that when we've settled in we might like to run crossovers with his other group. So I've written out an idea for my first character, a pixie toxic black mage.

ALBERICH - TOXIC BLACK MAGE - PIXIE (35 BP)

STATISTICS (240 BP)

B1 A3 R3 S1 C7 I6 L6 W7 M5 E4

ACTIVE SKILLS (108 BP)

Assensing 4 (Spirits +2)
Astral Combat 3 (Magicians +2)
Banishing 1
Binding 5 (Spirits of Man +2)
Counterspelling 1 (Combat Spells +2)
Dodge 1 (Astral +2)
Influence Skill Group 1
Spellcasting 1 (Health +2)
Summoning 5 (Spirits of Man +2)

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS

Astral Research 5
Local Covens 3
Magical Theory 5
Nietzsche 4
Spirit Idenitification 6
Wards 4

LANGUAGE SKILLS

English N
Sperethial 5
Latin 4

QUALITIES (+5 BP)

Focused Concentration 10
Magician 15
Mentor Spirit (Mutation) 5
Infirm +20
Sensitive Structure +15

SPELLS (9 BP)

Increase Charisma
Increase Willpower
Decrease Logic

GEAR (13 BP)

Power Focus (Force 2)
Middle Lifestyle (Comfort 2, Entertainment 0, Necessities 2, Security 3, Neighbourhood 3 w/Aspected Domain, Workplace and Perfect Roommate)

CONTACTS (21 Free BP)

Merlin – Talismonger (Connection 3/Loyalty 4)
Prospero – Coven Mage (Connection 2/Loyalty 5)
Penny Farthing – Fixer (Connection 4/Loyalty 3)

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 23 2010, 07:49 AM

Hoboy. We had this discussion with some other dude two or three months ago who wanted to play a "toxic-friendly" mage. You get that toxics are (or are at least widely perceived to be) the bad guys, right? And that playing a toxic will basically paint a bull's-eye on your character's forehead?

Posted by: Tachi Mar 23 2010, 08:23 AM

By which he means there is a bounty on toxic mages... and it pays pretty well.

Posted by: The Jopp Mar 23 2010, 08:30 AM

I really have a problem with RAW and toxic mages.

If I want to play a Nuclear Physicist Hermetic Radiation Mage I’m immediately perceived as a threat since I control forces that are radioactive?

Having a spirit that ignores the danger of a reactor to fix things for me would be a good thing.

The only thing would be if I started to use things like “Radioactive Bolt of Death”

Space travel is gonna be a bitch – especially any exploration close to the sun which is most likely the Nuclear Toxic Metaplane filled with radioactive spirits since the entire sun is a reactor.

It’s get even more fun if we split things up…

Fission Mages - Evil radiation spreading mages
Fusion Mages – Clean Enviroment Mages

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 23 2010, 11:12 AM

There's a reason why toxic mages are dumped into the 'threat' category, along with shedims, insect spirits and the like. Thier mentor sprits have interested that are seriously antithetic to normal magic and more often than not to what is considered a normal life, even by shadowrunners standards. 'Normal' magic derives from natural environements. Toxics don't, they're ssociated with things like toxic dumps, irradiated zones, defoliant-staurated rural areas and the like. Not exactly the sort of things you like to hav nearby

That toxic pixie is something no sane runner would ever want be associated with - at most one might consider tagging along for a one-shot job, but would take extra care that he isn't linked with it. A mutation mentor spirit is the sort to expect to do things like dumping mutagenic toxin into the water supplies, taint food before it's distributed, that sort of things. Having a contatc in (presumably) toxic coven makes it even worse.

As an aside, a mutation-aspected location isn't in my opinion an healthy place for someone with a Bod of 1 to live in.

Posted by: Lansdren Mar 23 2010, 04:26 PM

In the game all that would happen is the rest of the team trying to work out how to incapacite you and turn you in without killing you and losing the evidence of your existance so they can be paid. Although to be fair we did just finish a bounty hunt on a blood mage so hunting magic users appears to pay quite well to us

Posted by: underaneonhalo Mar 23 2010, 07:17 PM

A few things pop out at me.

1) Why is your essence 4?
2) As soon as combat happens you will explode in a poof of glitter.
3) ?????
4) Profit!

Hope this helps!

Posted by: Mickle5125 Mar 23 2010, 08:23 PM

looks like "E4" means Edge 4

Posted by: The Jake Mar 23 2010, 09:04 PM

Before we get ahead of ourselves.... has your GM buddy approved your concept, given its radical departure from RAW?

- J.

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 23 2010, 09:22 PM

FYI, fusion puts out quite a bit of radiation, too.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 23 2010, 09:45 PM

Maybe he's thinking Cold Fusion?

Posted by: KnightIII Mar 23 2010, 10:48 PM

I would have killed his character for having a contact named Merlin.

But I have to roll with the masses. You may try to be a "goodly" toxic mage, but people arnt going to buy it. It would be like... Oh... I dunno... Being a dark elven ranger trying to convince people you are good. You can expect years of abuse and outright violence until you make a name for yourself. The flipside is, as a runner, you dont WANT a name for yourself.

Posted by: Critias Mar 23 2010, 11:19 PM

If a concept like that will work at your local game table, have fun with it. If a character that gimped will work at your game table, have fun with it. If your peers in the Shadowrunning group won't immediately incapacitate your combat worthless character and turn it in for the bounty, have fun with it.

Posted by: The Jopp Mar 24 2010, 07:46 AM

Hmm, best bet for ME would be to play a regular hermetic mage but perhaps with a few spells with "Radiation elemental effect" on a few spells.

Posted by: WyldKnight Mar 24 2010, 08:58 AM

Gotta love dumpshock, when someone asks for help they get bit in the ass. First off I'll give you the warning. Toxic mages are basically hated by anyone not evil or crazy...or both. If your gm is ok with this along with the massive bounty on your head (you should have the wanted quality because of this without a choice) then you need to redo the numbers. You dont have a single offensive spell. You should at least have stunbolt/ball. Next your spell casting is way to low. Spirits are nice and all but if their busy you need a way to defend yourself. Astral combat isnt needed that much if you just bring a spirit along as a body guard and stunbolt is just as effective as banishing. I dont know karmagen well so i dont know what else to say.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 09:17 AM

I guess the first two questions, would be what form of Karmagen are you using? The Karmagen from RC, or the rules from the German book. The second, is what role are you going for. What's your purpose?

Spellcasting 1 is a terribad idea. Even with the specialization. I would also look at the rules pertaining to the Attribute Spell. You have to cast it at a Force equal to, or greater than, the augmented value for the attribute you're boosting. That means a minimum force of 7 for both the Charisma and Willpower. Your skills honestly look kinda helter skelter.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 24 2010, 10:05 AM

I notice you've used the BP values for qualities, contacts and spells rather than the 2x values set for karma.
Also, it costs 16 karma to bind that Power Focus.

Actually most of your numbers seem off. I'm reading your final tally in the area of 848 karma, and that's with chax4 in free contacts and no karma for race type. Maybe you're tacking on free knowledge/language skill points or using 3x for stats rather than the 5x SR4a appended it to?

Dunno.

One other thing, you can only learn a number of spells equal to your spellcasting skill x2, so that means a max of 2 spells for you. Also, by the rules, the mentor spirit for Mutation abhors weakness. Bod 1 Str 1 is not a good fit if you plan to play by the readings.

Posted by: Brol_The_Mighty Mar 24 2010, 10:38 AM

RC Karmagen has never been appended to x5 for it actually. SR4a did change the cost in Karma for post creation, but nothing has actually been set forth for RC. From a RAW standpoint of course.

Posted by: Wuerfelwerfer Mar 24 2010, 12:06 PM

By the way, what's a good guideline on how much bounty I get for a toxic mage? Is that written anywhere? Street Magic just said: "There is a bounty".

Posted by: The Jopp Mar 24 2010, 12:19 PM

I believe that the draco foundation pays 1 000 000 Y for both bloodmages and toxic mages.

Our group decided for Netguns and narcojects and sit outside every Aztechnology corporation office and have the mage check who was awakened (ok, masking might stop us...).

The GM decided the bounty was a bad idea and/or corporations upped the security for their employees.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 24 2010, 01:03 PM

I believe DF now only pays bounties for the select few they deem worthy, not just anyone. Basically, it has a price for the heads of the powerful blood and toxic mages.

Oh, and yeah, once you capture a couple of Azzie mages, they will increase security, and they will put effort to find you and make an example of you.

Posted by: The Jopp Mar 24 2010, 01:41 PM

True, after getting a few hundred mages the first month with limited magical capacity and people wanting their cash they might have tightened up their requirements of the term "Bloodmage".



Yes, but runners tend to get a bit blind if they can quickly gain a million yen. Or two and three.

Or powerful and resourceful enough...

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 24 2010, 01:51 PM

The point of Karmagen is to provide a smooth [direct] transition for character build and advancement from creation to play. That's also written into the description. Besides, saying that karmagen doesn't update with karma rules just because of missing errata is not going to really net you anything but equally uber opponents and stats that are hell to upgrade. It's like the sig says.

Posted by: Tymire Mar 24 2010, 05:38 PM

Hehe anyone else see something wrong with a toxic mage with a body of 1?

Suicidal much?

Posted by: Tomothy Mar 25 2010, 01:44 AM

I think where I put 'Karma' I meant to put BP. Oops.

Also, I didn't know there was a bounty on toxic mages. My GM doesn't mind me playing a toxic mage and I don't think he was planning on bountying me either.

My plan was to run in the Astral all the time, dropping spirits for support. The increase willpower and charisma spells are going to be cast by spirits of man to support me when I want to summon or bind high level spirits.

Decrease logic is as close to an offensive spell as I've picked, but I think I'll change it to manabolt.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 25 2010, 05:48 AM

Depending on what the other players are fielding as chracters, even the GM's permission might not keep you out of trouble. And even with teh GM's permission, it's a character that should get in trouble, because the sort of things his mentor expects of him will rub the majority of peoples the wrong way. Spiking baby milk at the kindergarten (or their underclass equivalent) with a cheap genetic infusion or mutagenic toxic waste isn't popular, even in the Barrens. Remember the mentor's creed is 'mutation is good, eat mutation'. Added to a dark magic tradition that's not exaclty a good thing at popularity contests it can quickly get you in trouble.

My impression is that this character is a bit like a chaotic evil character in AD&D - fun for one player, obnoxious and likely to get killed quickly for everyone else. With a strong 'i'm eeeeevil 'cuz eeeeevil is the lolz' vibe.


A tactical note : depending on how you're planning your astral support, bewae of the time limit of astral projections. And if you're planning on extended 'out-of-body' time, keep in mind that there a critters hanging around the astral that considers a body vacated by it's owner as a perfect opportuniy for body-snatching. One last thing : while projecting, you're using astral perception, even hen manifested. That means verbal and gestual communication only - depending on interpretation it can also mean you can't get information from written material, be it on paper or on screen.

complement : I'd suggest you to read the section on toxic mages from 'Street Magic' (pages 141-143) for a good feel of what's a toxic mage. It makes it obvious why they're not suitable PCs in a 'standart' game.

Posted by: SpellBinder Mar 25 2010, 06:24 AM

Was reading through http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/will1.shtml and hit one entry that immediately made me think of this thread...



There's also an earlier entry that's pretty much the same for blood mages too.

Posted by: dirkformica Mar 25 2010, 11:00 AM

Threads like these always remind me why I'm so glad I only game with friends. I can't imagine a gaming environment that I'd feel comfortable playing in where my fellow players attacked me because I was evil or different from them. Similarly, if my GM was completely out to get me, I'd bow out. But since my circle are all friends who share GM roles, this has NEVER been a problem. Whenever I have played "evil", and this has happened quite often since we ALL were, it was tons of fun and a great diversion from the typical RPG morality. Then we'd get tired of it and play white knights again, but it was damn fun while it lasted. If everyone is on-board then you should be able to play whatever you want.

From a crunch perspective, if you want to be an astral support character you should definitely get Infiltration. You'll be able to hide from threats, and it'll be especially good since your natural Concealment power will help you on both the Physical and Astral plane. If you can throw out a couple of hits on your stealth test, when all of the opposition is at a -5, you'll be able to avoid a lot of dangerous circumstances. You should also get an offensive spell. Manabolt is nice, but since you'll probably just be giving it to your Spirit of Man, Stunball might be better. If you have a campaign with lots of Drones you might go with Lightning Bolt or Ball instead.

Also, since you're already going with some casting buff spells, and using spirits to sustain them, you might pump your spellcasting so that you can get some other good ones. Using spirits to crank up Reaction and Agility on your team work nicely too. Combat Senses can also be a great boon. If you are forced to join a run, you might also want Shapechange or Critter Form (note that the new FAQ allows Human as a Critter form) since that can boost your terrible physical skills up (although you might want more Spellcasting skill or leave the casting up to spirits.)

Posted by: Stingray Mar 25 2010, 11:20 AM

.. by Runner's Companion; Pixie is advanced PC and get Distinctive Style, which means
he/she can be tracked down more easily. Pixie, toxic mage (open bounty hunt=Wanted neg. qual.) and Distinctive Style
is combination for VERY short lived PC.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 25 2010, 11:46 AM

There's also a little problem in that the character, if it's played as it's supposed to according to both his mentor spirit AND magiccal tradition, won't be good at teamwork (odds are he will even be abysmal at it) :

mutation mentor spirit : Followers of Mutation despise weakness. If the magician should ever exhibit a weakness or prove inferior to another, he suffers a –1 dice pool modifier to all actions until he somehow compensates for the weakness or overcomes his rival (leading many magicians to acquire new implants or other enhancements).

black magic tradition : A black magician’s ultimate focus is a quest for personal power, regardless of whether this comes from mastery
of the dark arts, secular powerbrokering, or pacts with the dark powers from beyond the mortal realm.

That combination is likely to make the character a obnoxious, bossy jerk. An incarnation of the 'my way or no way' attitude. Basically likely to be content only with servants or dupes, if not slaves, rather than partners. Wtih said servants being utterly disposable. Add to that the fact that his mentor spirit will lead him to actions that most peoples will find abbhorent and he won't take 'no' for an answer if you don't get along, the odds are high he'll meet an early death. unless the whole party is along that line and the whole game is aligned close to his goals. Of which society as a whole will take a very dim view, even out of the law-abiding elements.

A real world analogy would be a drug dealer who's a bossy and overbearing bully, and has a side business as a fervent Al-Quaida supporter along with a propensity for random acts of terrorism. Not what I'd call the recipe for a sucessful ciminal carrier , and someone run-of-the-mill criminals are more likely to sell to the cops or quietly dispose of than associate with.

Italicized bits are straight from Street Magic

Posted by: Critias Mar 25 2010, 01:32 PM

So you and your friends don't role play. Got it. If it's fun for you, great!

Posted by: Cergorach Mar 25 2010, 02:22 PM

I'm mostly concerned with the pixie aspect of the character:
SPLAT!
"What was that!?!?"
*turns on wind shield wipers*

Body 1 and Strength 1 characters make really bad Shadowrunners IMHO!


Your hitting the correct point here, IF everyone is on board. It's not the first time that in our group of friends there was some who needed to play a new character and picked a Oni Mage in an otherwise very standard AD&D group. Saying "NO!" outright wasn't very nice, but when out of game hints weren't understood, in game hints were used. With the eventual death of the Oni Mage, it was pretty much made clear that it wasn't acceptable. His next character was a backstabbing ninja in a party and group that didn't backstab in this particular game. On the other hand, it was requested (strongly) that I play something else then a Elven Fighter/Mage/Thief. As I found humans boring at the time and disliked Dwarves and Halflings, we eventually agreed that a centaur would be an acceptable choice by everyone. What I'm trying to say is that you don't create non-standard characters without discussing it with the group your playing with.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 25 2010, 02:46 PM

There's hardcore roleplaying, and then there are typical OOC agreements: sharing loot, no backstabbing, no interparty strife etc. They can be roleplayed out or not, but there's nothing wrong about them.
Saying that a group does not role play because they don't enjoy playing out conflict between their characters is just arrogance of the "having fun the wrong way" type.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 25 2010, 05:07 PM

I think that what Cirtias has in mind with is comment is that having a party with say
* a do-gooder ordained priest
* an unpricipled rogue with sticky fingers
* a self-centered mage who's only interested in his magical studies
* a big brute of a fighter with a taste for looting, raping, burning and crip roasted babies

which just happen to get along without conflict and do things together isn't roleplaying because none of the PCs is played anywhere close to in-character. It's the same sort of problem with the toxic pixie - there's no rational way that he is going to get along with a 'normal' group. Out of consevation instinct if not principle. Which makes it unsuitable as a player character unless the whole party is on a toxic mindset and agenda.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Mar 25 2010, 05:53 PM

I dunno, you could have some fun with it. I see it as a sitcom:

Alfie, the street Sam-"Oh, and someone watch Alberich. He s been muttering something about 'cleansing with holy fire' again..."

Al, above mentioned evil pixie l-"Aww, but Alfieeee......the great Atom just wants to love them!" *all this said in an adorable, high pitched pixie voice*

*canned laughter*

Posted by: Critias Mar 25 2010, 07:42 PM

Go read up on what a Toxic Black Mage should/would be like, and then try to tell me how they can fit into your average Shadowrunner group. This is even discounting the character build itself, and how useful it may or may not be, I'm just talking about their place in the setting, the shared fictional world where the game itself takes place.

It really seems to me like either (a) the group aren't a bunch of evil, power hungry, douchebags out to mutate metahumanity into something horrible, so the Toxic Black Mage won't be welcome, or (b) the group are a bunch of evil, power hungry, douchebags, and as such they'll knock out the ridiculously frail Pixie with a casual backhand and go turn him in for a million bucks.

It's one thing for a gaming group to occasionally fudge things a little bit, let some interparty friction slide without letting it turn into a slaughter, and generally "cut corners" here and there to maintain peace and harmony on an OOC scale among a group of friends. It's another thing altogether for a party composed entirely of CE Drow Assassins to suddenly get a Dwarven Paladin in their midst, for a terrorist cell of Alamos 20k operatives to take on a Changeling Troll as their new party member, or for someone to want to play The Punisher in a Marvel RPG where everyone else is a mob hitman.

If someone "doesn't enjoy playing out conflict between characters," then that hypothetical someone should put a little effort into making sure characters shouldn't be in conflict, shouldn't they? The GM and players should take a look at the game world, take a look at character sheets, and if someone's merrily pounding square peg into a round hole, maybe that character should be re-evaluated.

There's suspension of disbelief, and then there's just doesn't fit into the party. If you're constantly smoothing over the "just doesn't fit into the party" guys, well...at what point do you accept the fact you're no longer playing roles, at all, you're just some friends eating pizza and rolling dice to kill shit? I'm not saying there's anything innately wrong or un-fun with just being friends that are eating pizza and rolling dice to kill shit, you're the one assuming I'm being arrogant or elitist about it.

Posted by: Harbin Mar 25 2010, 08:36 PM

In my opinion;

A shadowrunner can be morally questionable. They're runners, after all.

Toxic mages aren't evil, they're batshit.

More than half of them want to destroy the world or impose their beliefs on others (and I think it's somewhat obvious to say they wouldn't be debating it out on stage.)

Their metamagics are Corruption, Taint, and Leeching.

This would be the kind of person that would throw some radioactive waste into the shelter for orphans and corrupt the place's mana to make way for the new world of poison.

Not someone who would be a misunderstood person who was using their abilities for the forces of good. Someone who was doing that wouldn't be a toxic mage D:

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Mar 25 2010, 08:55 PM

Couldn't all this be solved by just creating a bunch of awesome radiation based spells? By RAW, is it possible to use/create toxic spells without being a toxic mage? You wouldn't have access to toxic spirits or metamagic, obviously. Sure it would be toeing the line and would likely lead to an eventual evil little eco-terrorist. But one can argue that its flooding the municipal pool with sewer runoff that makes you toxic, not the spell itself. Running out of coffee and away from books, so stop me if I'm talking gibberish

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 25 2010, 09:40 PM

There's nothing clearly stated in the rule on that regard - since magic can already affect the electromagnetic spectrum at visible light wavelengths (physical illusion spells), they should be able to create gamma rays which ar only anotherpart of the electromagnetic spectrum.

But there's a catch here : hard radiations screw up normal magic, which means you're likely to have a pretty horrible drain to overcome that problem. And for what purpose ? inflicting a slow, painful and degrading death while leaving behind a pollution of activated materials. Rather pointless in my opinion, unless you've got a very special mindset. A sort of mindset that's likely to let you slip into toxic magic sooner than later. At which point the drain will probably fall down to a more manageable level as the twisted magic of a toxic mage enables him to ignore, and even thrive, conditions that would ruin a normal's mage day.

Posted by: dirkformica Mar 26 2010, 07:07 AM

The original poster never mentioned whether the group he was joining was an "average shadowrunner group." He DID however mention later that "my GM doesn't mind me playing a toxic mage and I don't think he was planning on bountying me either." A bunch of crazy, evil people running amok using the Shadowrun setting/rules sounds like a lot of fun to me with plenty of opportunities for role-playing of all kinds. I especially like the idea of a tiny Pixie buffing the party and unleashing Toxic spirits on the opposition. And I don't think it'd be badwrongfun if the players, evil and crazy as they may be, never ganked each other. Since the GM is fine with a Toxic, that seems to indicate he/she isn't planning to persecute unduly for their character choices either.

I would re-iterate that as a fragile support character, you'll need as much conflict avoidance as possible. That's why Infiltrating and Stealth will be important. The distinctive style aspect that was brought up (which not all GMs will use) could also be mitigated if you use the Physical Mask spell or Shapechange (Human.) They can help you avoid being remembered all the time as that "batshit insane tinkerbell motherfucker who unleashed Toxic hell on us" (assuming you leave any survivors.) You would also benefit from taking some skillpoints in the Influence group, either specifics like Con, or the whole group if you can afford it. You'll have high Charisma when buffed by spirits of man, so you might as well take advantage of it. This also helps when you can't just melt people's faces off (or if you want them to drop their guard BEFORE you melt their faces off.)

Prior to some of the recent http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtmland some discussion http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=30195 I might mention the concept of being a Possession based Toxic tradition instead of a Black Mage. That could help with some of your frailty issues. But with race based augmented caps in play according to the FAQ I'm not so sure anymore. Depending upon your GM's view on the Possession rules regarding stat caps and especially the possible replacement of mental and special attributes, you might be causing more harm than good by possessing yourself and your fellow teammates. It could follow your mentor spirit a bit since you'd be deeming your fellow members as too weak to truly kickass without your spirits' help, however. It would also make everyone a lot scarier. it might be something to think about in any case.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 27 2010, 09:03 AM

It all comes down to whether or not the GM is okay with it, and what kind of a setting they're playing in. Like a few others have said, not everyone plays Shadowrun the same way for crying out loud.

As to all Toxic Mages "having" to be moustache-twirling lunatics... naga, please. That's like saying all Hermetic Mages have to be antisocial nerds wearing a robe and wizard hat, all Techomancers have to be 10-year-old hobos living in the sewers, and all Shaman have to be Native American neo-anarchstists wearing full tribal dress. Personally, I think the original poster should be applauded for thinking outside of the box and being creative with his interpretation of an otherwise useless and boring path of magic. It's a little odd that he went all out with it by making him a Pixie as well as practicing his magic in such an unorthodox fashion, but there's nothing wrong with that if the style his group is playing is accepting of it.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 27 2010, 11:08 AM

Hermetic mage and shamans are extremely wide definition that definitively should not be restricted - an hermetic mage (as 'non shaman') can range from a professional scientist to an obnoxious wiz-brat using his magic to get into girl's pants and get free booze. Which certainly doesn't even cover it all.
Toxic mages are a rather narrow substet which impose a skewed worldview from the get go - that's what let the toxics do things only them can. 'Toxic' and 'able to function in society' are to groups with very little intersection (mostly in the illgeal zones where shadowrunners are operating or close by)
In the case of the pixie, he's going the extra mile with a mentor spirit whose goal is to forcibly coerce metahumanity to some unspecified 'next stage of evolution', without any concern for the means used and the damage. It means the character's mindset will match that of the mentor. And that definitevely steps out of the zone where 'toxic' and 'able to function in society' overlaps.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 27 2010, 11:19 AM

No, Toxic Magic is simply another tradition of magic. And, arguably, one broader than most of the ones selected by players (since they can come from any of those). The Toxic Mages described in Street Magic are one tiny, narrowly defined description of someone who practices Toxic Magic. Trying to say that all of them are identical to that one tiny subtype is ridiculous and unfounded. I can think of numerous examples of characters that would be classified as a Toxic Mage mechanically that aren't homicidal lunatics bent on world destruction, and a few examples have even been mentioned in this thread. They no more have to be lunatics than all Cyberzombies have to be cold-hearted psycho killers or all Blood Mages have to be maniacal murderers from Aztlan. I can easily see a Christian-based character who uses Blood Magic in a self-sacrificial way, for instance. And hell, practically every hero from the 4th World of Earthdawn were blood mages/adepts.

You're also not required to take a mentor for any tradition, and even if you do, they're a reflection of your beliefs and expectations, or at the very least open to the same varied interpretations as any other mentor is. Especially for more hermetic mindsets, as opposed to the more shamanistic ones that basically worship mentors as gods and demigods. But even then, someone in an Egyptian tradition is going to see their Sun mentor spirit completely differently than someone in an Amerind-based tradition. So why should toxic mentor spirits be any different?

Particularly in a setting where the GM is okay with such changes?

Posted by: The Jake Mar 27 2010, 02:03 PM

These threads should never be entertained. They should be locked for the sanity of all the participants so we can all move on...

- J.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 28 2010, 12:35 AM

Sounds like a pretty interesting character.

I'd recommend though that you just get together with your GM and create a unique Tradition and Mentor Spirit which allows you access to the mutation powers and the spirits you like.. Otherwise Dumpshockers will hunt you down and yell at you until you character isn't the only thing that's RAW.

Posted by: Glyph Mar 28 2010, 08:08 PM

The toxic mentor spirit doesn't bother me as much - if it's acceptable at their table, I'm not concerned with how it meshes up with what a toxic is like by RAW, or how a normal group of runners would react to the same.

The concept seems similar to a bunker rigger, only instead of a rigger in a bunker running drones, you have a comatose pixie running spirits from astral space. In most campaigns, there would be drawbacks to this in the form of mishaps with the pixie's meatbody (if you are going astral all the time, the odds should catch up with you eventually), or astral threats (the astral plane has its own dangers). With an easygoing GM, this character could function in his support role with minimal risk. But you have to ask yourself - if it does work out like that, will you be happy in the long run, with a character who almost never risks getting hurt and has minions doing all of the heavy lifting? Or will you wind up being bored?

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 28 2010, 08:59 PM

Like you said, how is that any different from a rigger or hacker who does the brunt of their work in safety from afar? Aethermancers are a very cool concept in my opinion and potentially a lot of fun, especially if the GM decides to address it; though not in a "I'm going to punish you!" way so much as a "this is cool, let's explore it" way. You could even make your sanctum fairly safe under most circumstances with minimal trouble. A Luxury Security rating on a custom lifestyle includes heavy wards and patrolling spirits, for instance.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a big fan of taking unusual or useless rules and building concepts that make them work in new and interesting ways. I just think its wrong to chastise someone who's not trying to break the game or be a jerk about it just because he wants to try something unusual.

Posted by: Glyph Mar 28 2010, 09:54 PM

He doesn't really need to pay lifestyle costs for magical security. He can set up his lodge, and some wards, on his own, and physical security is fairly easy, too, since a pixie can fit into places a normal metahuman can't.

I asked the question from my own perspective - I would find such a character unrewarding to play. Different strokes and all, though. Doesn't mean it's not a valid concept - I don't like playing hackers or riggers much, either, and there's nothing wrong with them. I do find the physical stats of 1 a bit cheesy, just as I would for a bunker rigger. At least for a pixie, those stats are slightly more plausible.

Posted by: WyldKnight Mar 28 2010, 10:02 PM

The only thing that confuses me is why a naturally occuring process which in fact allows life to exist (how long would we last without the sun) is chastised by RAW. Wouldn't a mage able to summon spirits that could repair radiation leaks and explore uninhabitable locations be highly useful? I get by RAW most toxic mages are crazy but with a little GM fiat I don't believe its that big a deal to allow toxic abilities without the toxic mindset.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 28 2010, 10:20 PM

Frankly, I don't think such a mage would count as toxic. Being toxic inherently means turning from natural ways toward toxic ones, from creation to destruction, etcetera. It all kinda comes in a package.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 29 2010, 12:25 AM

No more so than playing a Voodoo character means you have to be Petro. That's one subpath and one mentality of the tradition as a whole.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 29 2010, 04:49 PM

The bad side/good side of voodo is built into the tradition. The toxics don't havethat dichotomy. And th kind of magic and spirit wielded by a toxic mage are rather antithetic to just about everything else. Just like insect spirit's I don't see what sort of good could come out of them. Toxic sprits are nasty bugger not matter the specifics of their nastiness.

With the pixie, there's another angle that makes taggign along with him a rather bad idea if you're not into toxic magic too : the black magic tradition as a strong habit of makig sprit pacts - which in the case of a toxic mage doesn't stikes me as a good idea.

And the 'but.. you can be toxic and a nice guy' seems more like bending the background into a bretzel to be able to play with toxic powers without the hassles of being a public ennemy nobody in his right mind would consider working with. Basically unless the game is centered about a toxic agenda, it should be off-limits for players.

Posted by: Walpurgisborn Mar 29 2010, 05:27 PM

WyldKnight

Toxic as is doesn't sound like what you're suggesting. Or at least not as Toxic is portrayed. That doesn't mean that a homebrewed Tradition can't be built. I'd rather like to see what you could do with that, if you were to build somethign with a mildly Darwinian, radiation kills and changes but also brings forth new and interesting, mutation is a hand that gives and takes away.
If Tomothy swaps out black magic (which is where I'd see the real difficulty) and pops in something associated with Shiva, you might have a real winner as a character concept.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 29 2010, 09:42 PM

Are we reading the same books here?



I don't see anything suggesting toxics can follow any other "subpath" but the one towards universal destruction, like, say, the descriptions of Voodoo tradition suggest.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 29 2010, 09:54 PM

<shrugs> I refuse to argue semantics with pigheaded adherents to the rules as written (no personal attack intended, just a general sentiment). There's nothing inherent to the Toxic Magic tradition itself that makes it a villain-only tradition except for the fact that the person who wrote those particular rules insisted on writing them that way. They've done the same thing with Blood Mages and all the other "threats" in the game, but again, there's plenty of concepts and examples of where they don't have to be evil, maniacal mass murderers. It's a type of magic just like all traditions, not a one-dimensional state of mind.

There's no reason at all that Black Magic shouldn't be treated the same way, yet inexplicably black magicians are completely free to be good, sane, healthy individuals.

It's simply close-minded and narrow-visioned to think otherwise. Especially in the advent of having several examples of rational and sane concepts described here and elsewhere. You even seem to agree as much, but base that agreement on the aforementioned pigheaded adherent to the rules as written. It's okay for Voodoo to incorporate both good and bad followers because the rules go into detail about that. But oh God no, not Toxic Magic because they don't.

But to each their own. I still think it's shameful to chastise the original poster for trying to have fun and do something neat with a concept that more often than not just goes to waste because of how shitty the fluff writing for it was.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 29 2010, 11:53 PM

Okay, skipping your implications of personal attacks here. You know, typically when a person says "I want to make a Toxic Mage" it means "I want to make something as it is described in the books, not in the houserules of some other user I don't even know about yet". Surprisingly enough.
I'm not saying house rules are bad - your Toxic Mages can be the radioactive saviours of metahumanity, technomancers in disguise, or anything else you as a gm might want. What I'm saying is that if you redefine standard fluff you should not argue your houserules as being universally applicable.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 01:24 AM

No, usually when someone says they want to play something like a Toxic Mage, they're referencing the rules and general gaming principles of a Toxic Mage, not the fluff background for cartoony supervillains that are included with those rules.

It's little different than selecting a Katana but describing it as a Western longsword of superior craftsmanship, or selecting a Eurocar Westwind but calling it a Porsche Winter, or being lazy and copying the stats of the Street Samurai archetype (which includes a certain set of principles and beliefs) and renaming it a Razorboy who lacks any of those principles or beliefs. And when the fluff is as incredibly dull and one-dimensional as that of a Toxic Mage, one should be applauded for trying to make it work and have fun with it, not ridiculed and treated like shit. Period.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 30 2010, 06:09 AM

Magic is just ideas and archetypes given form. That you're awakened is the only real concern. After that, it's mostly window dressing.

If he says that he follows a Mentor Spirit of Evolution and just assigns it the same basic stats as Mutation without the Toxic bent, then he's kosher.
It's really not a big deal. If a guy wants to focus his thoughts on Radiation, he just calls it Energy and then decides not to act like a huge dick - problem solved.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 07:02 AM

Exactly. Rules like the magic traditions are there to guide you in creating a character. When you start letting them dictate your characters, especially in such a narrow-mindedly written tradition like Toxic Magic, you've failed the intent of the rules. Not the other way around.

Posted by: KCKitsune Mar 30 2010, 07:15 AM

As long as the spirits the mage can summon are not of the Toxic variety, then he's good. Yeah people might give him some funny looks, but then again he/she is a mage... they are use to funny looks.

Posted by: toturi Mar 30 2010, 07:15 AM

IIRC, there is a difference between Twisted and Toxic. Twisted is the dark side of the normal traditions, Blood Magic is one of these, the GM is only recommended not to allow it for PCs, but he can allow them without actually waving the GM-says-so-house-rule wand. Toxic traditions, as I recall, are written for NPCs, if the GM wants to allow the PC to get it, he needs to waive the rule.

Since the GM is ok with it, then he can rule it so. It is little different from allowing a PC to play a Dragon or a Great Dragon; if the GM is fine with it, he can allow whatever he wants.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 30 2010, 04:26 PM

Look, Toxic Magic is clearly defined in the books. The very reason the toxics get their own abilities and spirits is because they are not just one more garden variety tradition, they are doing mojo completely backwards.
Again - you can change it any way you like, everything's fine about it - just don't claim that's how it should universally be when it's no more than your table's houserule.

When a player says "I want to play a hermetic who is secretly a high-ranked AZT employee", he shouldn't be surprised if Blood Magic issue is risen. If his character is a runaway clone from SK, the people reading about it will think about him being chased by the wyrm. If AZT does not do Blood Magic in your campaign, if SK is not headed by a wyrm - it's perfectly fine, just state it when the issue is brought forward - but you shouldn't be parading around claiming people are "pigheaded adherents to the rules", and those established setting points are just rumors or "a narrow view" or whatever. It's right there in the book, and it's what's happening unless specified to be houseruled otherwise.
It works the same for every setting and every system - when you take Red Mage of Thai as a PrC, you're not just "referencing the rules and general gaming principles". You are playing a member of a very strictly defined magical order with some very strictly defined moral principles and agendas, etcetera.

While I agree that noone should be ridiculed and treated like shit, I don't see anyone having the issue in this particular topic. Overreacting much?

Oh, and the last, but not the least. If you can't make an interesting, not one-dimensional insane mage, who has all the good reasons to go toxic, and whose reasoning and story is good enough for the PCs to sympathize, if only a bit - the problem is not in the setting.

Posted by: Tanegar Mar 30 2010, 05:41 PM

What Fatum said. +1 internet to you, sir. I would also add that just because someone doesn't like the way toxic mages are written, doesn't necessarily mean they are written badly. They are BAD GUYS, capitalization intentional, right up there with insect shamans. Toxic goals inevitably lead the toxic mage into conflict with, well, pretty much everybody. Could you make a non-crazy toxic who could potentially be reasoned back onto a sane magical path? Sure. But as long as he remains a toxic, he's a BAD GUY.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 08:28 PM

Man, I hope they don't hadd Nehru Jackets to the equipment list ever. Because if you put one of those on, you become a BAD GUY automatically!!! I wonder if you become a BAD GUY if you use the custom Lifestyle rules to create an underground lair, too. I think you do because, you know, that's what BAD GUYS do!!!

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 30 2010, 08:41 PM

Well, the toxic spirits aren't particularly overpowered stat wise. They're just the only spirits which have a specific description in addition to stats because they are, as written, restricted to only the single, toxic tradition. But, still, you know how an Islamic hermetic might summon a fire spirit which looks like an efreet, a Wiccan might summon the same spirit and it looks like a wave of flame, and a when the Chaos Mage summons it it looks like a flaming skull icon? Same thing could potentially apply here with toxic spirit types. Just make the new Mentor's advantage be access to toxic type spirits instead of the typical "bonus to [blank] and [blank]" and then just kick all the twisted business in their description curbside.

Of course this kind of stuff doesn't pass even a moderate RAW test, but I think it sticks within the basic concept of SR magic and even SR ideology. I mean, what's more Shadowrun than potential forces and ideas which can be used for good or ill depending on a person's nature? I don't see this rule-stretch spraining anybody's brain so long as the player does the heavy lifting in defining the tradition's aesthetic. Hopefully a thread like this can help give such a player some ideas so that the GM doesn't have to spend an hour per player trying to pin down whatever half-informed thing they've got swimming in their brain.

Posted by: Kazuhiro Mar 30 2010, 08:43 PM

An evil-looking coat and an underground lair may be lifestyle choices that reflect being a bad guy, but spending years of your life learning to be a Toxic Mage necessitates the desire to despoil the earth, kill enemies in ways that inflict unnecessary suffering, and loose your disfiguring, debilitating powers on whoever you can get away with simply because you want the data/you want the practice/your dark god demands it/it's fun.

Seriously, there's "evil" and then there's "crazed sadistic terrorist."

Posted by: Harbin Mar 30 2010, 08:52 PM

Batman has an underground lair!

(So does the cannibal elf player in the shadowrun campaign I'm in, but he isn't Batman.)

So no, you are safe from becoming a BAD GUY. (Thank goodness for that, right?)

Toxic magic is intrinsically bad and your character is bad for using it. They want to further their evil masterminded goals/destroy creation to further their goals/create abominations/destroy creation and create abominations.

There's not a lot of room for alternate character interpretation. When I hear toxic mage, I don't think 'Better Living Through Radiation: Get Your Pamphlet Today!'

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 08:55 PM

Or maybe it means that you've spent years of your life understanding a form of magic that makes a lot of sense in the modern world where radiation and other forms of toxicity has become a natural part of the world. Maybe it means you've dedicated yourself to this type of magic in order to help rein it in or transform such toxicity into a more functional and healthy part of that world. Just like there's nothing wrong with a Christian blood magician who believes in self-sacrifice to make the world a better place.

If petro hougans, black magicians, and other thoroughly wicked individuals can practice magic all fine and happy like, there's no reason these other traditions can't, too. Even if it makes them a rare outlier amongst the majority. There's nothing different between those traditions and Toxic Magic other than some fluff text written by someone(s) who were focused solely on creating villains for the game rather than treating them as indifferently as everything else in the game. Even the damned Vatican and its various off-shoots have good and bad things associated with it. It's patently ridiculous for this to be an exception, especially -- one again -- when people have little to no trouble coming up with concepts that work just fine.

Why the hell should things like this be one of the only things in the game that are so one-dimensional? Shadowrun is a game about shades of gray at its core. You'll just have to deal with the fact that I refuse to accept anything in this game as being purely white or purely black. Hell, even Dunkelzahn saw the possible merits behind some of these traditions and wanted to learn more about them, rather than just eradicating them from existence because they're "evil."

Posted by: Kazuhiro Mar 30 2010, 08:57 PM

I was under the impression that Dunkelzahn wanted all blood mages imprisoned?

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 08:59 PM

Then why was he giving out goodies to some of the biggest, baddest blood magicians around, like all of the immortal elves and great dragons? As previously mentioned, blood magic was a regular part of the daily lives of pretty much everyone in the Fourth World. Because it's not blood magic that's evil, it's certain individuals who practice it that are. Just like everything else in the game.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 30 2010, 09:46 PM

I believe you are missing the point. I'll repeat myself here - noone's arguing your right to think of Toxic Mages as radioactive saviours of humanity, grey-skinned aliens or whatever else you want.
Just don't try to prove it's universally true, since it is your own personal interpretation that has nothing (as in: absolutely nothing) to do with the fluff as established and as accepted by the majority of players and GMs. Just since it directly contradicts it, and the only source of canon info on the setting are the books. Or maybe do you know some other source, which is more true, and overrules things directly stated in them?

Also, I believe you're missing the difference between Life Magic (which was oh so widely used in the Fourth) and Death Magic, of which the latter (called Blood Magic in the Sixth World) inherently draws on suffering and pain, causes corruption, rips your aura, contaminates astral, and attracts Horrors. Much like you can't manipulate mana the way toxics do and stay sane and well-intended, you can't use Blood Magic and make the world a better place.

Oh yeah, and indeed Big D pretty much put a bounty on the heads of toxics and blood mages. Moreover, I don't remember seeing any notices of IE using Blood Magic during this cycle; neither of dragons using Blood Magic at all, with all the advanced stuff they have besides that. Okay, maybe except for those Feathered Serpents in AZT - but not that Dunkelzahn supported those, did he?

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 09:55 PM

Where did I ever say that these views were how the books portray them? To the contrary, I've repeatedly said the opposite. I know the books paint them all as psycho villains. But going around chasting someone for thinking outside the God damned box and having fun with it, all with the support of their GM, results in YOU being a ginormous dick. Especially when they come up with a fun (in theirs and others) opinion that doesn't break the game. In fact, most of the people ranting and raving in this thread are also the ones crying about how underpowered the character is.

Believe it or not, Shadowrun is a game. Yeah, a real, actual game. And -- I realize this is going to blow your mind -- some people actually like playing a game for fun. And when you can do that, complete with support from the GM, and create an unusual character that not only doesn't break the game but is kinda underpowered compared to what you could do through more traditional rules and concepts... well, I don't know. All I know is some people need to remove the huge stick they have shoved up their asses. Especially when the centerpiece of their argument is in support of one-dimensional, rarely-used, and pathetically lame villains.

Posted by: Fatum Mar 30 2010, 10:19 PM

Any info on the setting is canon as long as it is stated in the books. Thus, your ramblings on the Toxic Path being "just one more tradition", stated in such an indisputable tone, are all void, and should have been polite suggestions for Tanegar's GM to consider at best, not holy truths you present them to be.



Oh right, I can clearly see the topic being full of people "chasting" Tanegar. Saint Sithney is particularly successful at that. Myself, too - how dare I suggest that a character not fitting into a concept of a Toxic Mage should not be called as such! Shame on my bald head! Woe is me!



Wow, you are such a nice, well-adjusted person. It's a real pleasure talking with you.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 30 2010, 10:55 PM

Yeah, the basic idea I have is that there's no particular reason you can't play a "Toxic mage" as long as he's not actually a Toxic mage.

But if homes really wants to define himself as Toxic who isn't a madman obsessed with [insert mad science biz here], it's kinda like saying, I want to play a rapist, but without all that forced, nonconsensual sex.

Posted by: Dr. Funkenstein Mar 30 2010, 11:00 PM

Sorry. I didn't realize you were the only one allowed to be a preachy, self-righteous asshat in their posts. I'll try to remember that in the future.

Posted by: Kazuhiro Mar 30 2010, 11:02 PM

What *would* you call it? A Radiation-o-mancer? A Horrible Painful Death Adept?

Posted by: Harbin Mar 30 2010, 11:25 PM

Something I could see happening would be a sort of slippery slope character, where they went for more power, and thus slowly spiraled downward into insanity. Not like it hasn't happened before in various literature and comics and other media, but still.

Posted by: KnightIII Mar 30 2010, 11:54 PM

This has quickly become a morality issue. Which is the predominate question when playing a socially unacceptable class. So you have to compare it with other fictional or similar RL examples.

Warlocks (classic lit)- Can they be good? Not likely, the deal with demons and barter in souls. Does that make them evil? Not exactly. Demon hunters learn the same skillset and strike many of the same bargains. They protect the world from demons at the cost of themselves.

Assassins- Kill people in their sleep. Will be the first to stab someone in the back. Rely on lies, subterfuge, and deception of all kinds. Usually well versed in poisens. Not exactly Better Crocker type people, but not inherantly evil either.

Vampires/ghouls/other infected- They (usually) cant help what they have become. But none the less their dietary practices are less than... socially acceptable. Even if Bob just tried to kill you, chances are seeing Bob chopped up and served with a glass of white wine (red wine is terrible with beef) is unsettling at best. But are they inherantly evil? Not really. Though, as I said, they didnt have a choice.

So maybe we had a young neophyte pixie. The pixie discovers hes awakened. Awakened are still relatively rare. So whats to stop a happy go lucky pixie from running into a (typical) evil toxic mage first? The mage, sees the perfect evil chance in corrupting an "innocent" pixie (no one suspects the butterfly, mwaa hahahaha). And so the pixie, with growing unease, learns how to harness and channel their awakened potential through the toxic tradition. Experimenting and practicing at first in remote places and on paracritters or wild animals. Then the mage deems the pixie worthy of the final test. And sends tinkerbell to killa metahuman. Tink rebels, maybe kills the mage, and flees into the one place it might have a chance. The shadows.

Posted by: Tymeaus Jalynsfein Mar 31 2010, 12:23 AM

I see you still have not really changed, have you Dr. Funkenstein? You appear to be the same, lovable character that you have always been...

Oh well...

Keep the Faith

Posted by: Nyost Akasuke Mar 31 2010, 01:03 AM

If you're referring to me. Don't worry, I'm still here.

While I would love to jump into this whole debacle, sadly I have nothing new to contribute, as some people know I've gone through this before. Though I would like to reiterate what some people have said before.

Body 1 and the Infirm quality. While I'm pretty sure I can see the reasoning behind this, this character is beyond fragile. If I were going for this combination, I'd pump several more points into dodge if at all possible. Even if you are to be in your astral form the majority of the time, I'd say there's still a strong chance of you being caught up in less-than-comfortable situations while your full, meaty, delicious flesh-body. In that situation, even for one of that (a pixie's) size, I imagine a high chance of some sort of comic-book onomatopoeia followed by a quick death. But I am by no means an expert on anything, specially since I haven't read any of the books in like... a month.

In other news: Let the contagion spread. Soon, the followers of the toxic ways will crash down upon you all like torrential wave, and the old ways will be swept away with the tides! Buwhahahahaha. I'll probably be dead then.

Posted by: fistandantilus4.0 Mar 31 2010, 01:06 AM

Aina, for one.

And I would like to point out that this is the same Dunk that helped Anne Pinchet set up the Empowerment Coalition post mortem. The same almost-prez that is a mantis spirit, killed her running mate Yeats, who was a bug, and actively draws in more bugs (femals are autmomatically good merges with mantis, meking them very good at hiding.). You'll note how similar the "Empowerment Coalition" is to "Universal Brotherhood." So don't tag dunk's issues with blood magic down to morality. He's was just being practical about mana spikes.

*Snip*

Didn't that pretty much happen in canon?

My point is, it's not the sterotypes and same old on the face of things that makes the good stories. It's the exceptions to the rules. They've alraedy said that it's good to go in the OPs posts, so throttle it back a little. I seriously doubt Tomothy was loooking for a four page arguement complete with name calling.

Posted by: Saint Sithney Mar 31 2010, 01:31 AM

How about a Cosmic Mage? Willpower + Logic. An Atomancer? Willpower + Intuition. Rider of the Solar Winds? Willpower + Charisma.

Radiation is life, man. Without radiation there would be nothing.

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Mar 31 2010, 01:33 AM

I'd call him Dr.Manhattan, son

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Mar 31 2010, 01:47 AM

Ah, but red is the prefect choice for long pork.

Posted by: KnightIII Mar 31 2010, 01:53 AM

Indeed. Hence pork... the other white meat. Mmmm.

Posted by: Manunancy Mar 31 2010, 06:25 PM

I didn't notice teh 'infirm' quality. It doesn't fits well with a mutation mentor - who spits on weakness.

Posted by: Apathy Mar 31 2010, 07:06 PM

Is long pig considered white meat, or red meat?

Posted by: Dr.Rockso Mar 31 2010, 07:41 PM

Different from person to person